User talk:PericlesofAthens/Archive 3

Qing Art Question
Hi Eric, I'm doing an art analysis of "Amorous Meeting in a Room Interior," which has had some considerable roadblocks because I find an enormous lack of information regarding the history of the painting. That's why I was so fascinated by a page on the commons, in which you claimed it might be a scene from Jin Ping Mei. I was wondering if you had any academic sources that would lend credibility to this claim, as it'd be a massive break for me. I do hope to hear from you soon. Best regards.

Tang map
Hi Eric, good to receive your email. Back when I was at uni, I'd considered making a Tang dynasty map. I think I even started on one, but later I found out that I didn't know enough about the period to make something along the lines of what I did for the Han dynasty. Especially problematic was the Tang's positions in present day Xinjiang, as these tended to shift constantly. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do the research and make another map nowadays, because of the constraints imposed by my work. Although I still dream of a set of standardised maps spanning the entire length of Chinese history on Wikipedia, I don't think I'll be the one to fulfill it. Sorry, mate. Yeu Ninje 10:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a shame. Oh well, I'll try and find someone else who can make a map for it.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 20:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Massaging articles for FA
I'll finish reading 2nd half of Augustus and the other hopefully later today when I haev a bit of time. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey I just got this
This really belongs to you!

By the way, I am reading up on China and Chinese architecture! Lots of the books you reference, I can't find however. Regards, --Mattisse 23:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't nominate it. Someone else just picked up on it. When I was doing a lot of India articles I got several of those because the India editors keep their eyes open for possiblilities. Someone must be doing that for China. Do you need any copy editing on Augustus? Regards, Mattisse 00:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * JSTOR, yes, but I haven't used it. Do you get a lot from there? Mattisse 00:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If you have adequate copy editors I'll skip it &mdash; only if you should need help! Regards, --Mattisse 17:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Good luck
Good luck with your senior year; Wikipedia will keep. I've asked a couple of good editors to have a look. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Congradulations on the FAC!
I guess it is routine for you! (Today I have two DYK's! There is someone nominating Chinese articles I think.) --Mattisse 21:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Question
I wrote a little article called Dougong in which I give the word in Chinese characters. Now I have been asked the following question (to which I do not know the answer):
 * Why is it sometimes spelled 斗栱 and sometimes 斗拱? Is either considered more correct?

Do you know the answer? Regards, --Mattisse 18:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! This one I did nominate for DKY and was unexpectedly asked that question. --Mattisse 20:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, in order to edit educational book for children, please tell me can I use one of your picture image 'Tao Qian'? I couldn't find where I can get a permission. my e-mail adress is . If my trial was wrong, do me a favour. best regards!

Cuju
I noticed that you edited the Cuju page. Do you know of any books that give more detailed descriptions of the game, particularly during the Song Dynasty? The article is undersourced and tends to be a little confusing in certain places.

The kicking techniques of Cuju were supposedly adapted and incorporated into the Chuo Jiao boxing style. Practitioners of Chuo Jiao consider Zhou Tong and Yue Fei to be some of the first masters in their martial lineage. Of course, this is only a legend because historical works don't mention Yue learning anything other than archery. --Ghostexorcist 00:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Shen Kuo, slight copy editing question
Wow, you write some really great articles! As I was reading your Shen Kuo article, I happened to notice a small nit. You wrote: "Shen Kuo's children were often upset over this, and prostrated to Lady Zhang to quit this behavior." Did you mean "and prostrated themselves to Lady Zhang, asking her to quit this behavior" or "and protested to Lady Zhang, asking her to quit this behavior"?

Glad to support such a fine article -- PatriciaJH 21:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations once again!
Studying for finals and a FA! How can it be? Are you Superman? --Mattisse 23:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Revolving repositories
Supposedly there is a working revolving repository at Bao'en Temple. I think that is the same thing as your description in Technology of the Song Dynasty. I was perusing your gallery thinking you might have a picture of it. --Mattisse 01:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

More Shen Kuo copy edits
I made a few more copy edits to the Shen Kuo article, and also to your article quoting his work. Some are fixes to typos or other minor errors, others are sentences I reworked after I had had to stop, back up, and reparse. I made changes as minimal as possible, trying to respect your style and cadence;  I think I left your meaning intact but you should check my edits to be sure. And let me know if you dislike any of my changes, please! Hope this is helpful -- no one should have to do their own final copy editing, it's virtually impossible to find all of one's own errors. I figure since I spot errors as I read anyway, I can pay my Wikipedia rent by fixing odds and ends as I go.

It's great to find so much solid information about Chinese math and science history -- much (Western) writing that I read says something along the lines of "Oh, and so & so in China discovered this a few centuries prior, but they don't count because they're Chinese.  In Europe...." Then I try to track down information on so & so, and often find very little.

-- PatriciaJH 01:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

2D images and copyright
Hello,

I noticed that one of your iamges, on Dougong is licenced under the GFDL. Your source states it as "Your book", do you mean a book for which you are the author, or a book that you own. If you are the author, skip to the end of my comment, otherwise doesn't this constitute an image of a 2D work, which i believe in most countries is subject to copyright. However the image in question is *very* old, and as such probably not copyright-able by anyone, which means that you can't GFDL it because you don't own it. Perhaps PL is better? Thanks, A somewhat confused (Not A Copyright Lawyer in whatever country you are in) User A1 15:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Pop! I have replied on my talk page, cheers User A1 23:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This is the flip side of DYK. --Mattisse 00:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Again I have replied on my talk. Thanks User A1 01:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Congrats and well done
I have to admit, having watchlisted Augustus only a few days before you started bringing it up to scratch, I was a little stressed to have been beaten to it, but I can't say that if I had got there earlier it would have been any better. You will have picked up I'm sure that I have strong views on the politicial settlements of Augustus, but nothing I would have done would have been as comprehensive as your impressive and sterling work. Congratulations. --FactotEm 15:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

re: Bao'en Temple
No reason for the images - just the best I could do. I was really doing the article for myself and could not find any images (and I look and looked) that applied. I was hoping maybe you would! --Mattisse 21:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's what I figured. Too bad. It is wonderful that you have traveled in China! --Mattisse 21:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Youguo Temple
Do you see any obvious faux pas in Youguo Temple. I did the article because it was a red link in your Song Dynasty architecture article. Regards, --Mattisse 19:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Joinery
This book says that in Chinese architecture, joinery is defined as "non-structural carpentry" and refers to Yingzao Fashi. Is this right? I haven't found anything else that says that. --Mattisse 21:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. Maybe you could look at this and see if anything strikes you as wrong: Zaojing. --Mattisse 21:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know about shipbuilding. For structures, traditional Chinese architecture is as you say, without nails, I firmly believe, from the sources I've read. --Mattisse 21:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

question
I want to make a category for the history of Chinese architecture. Do you think it should be called Category:Chinese architectural history or Category:History of Chinese architecture? --Mattisse 19:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Wording choice
The only reason I didn't go with History of Chinese Architecture is that it would be stuck with all the History of ... articles. However, I can always change it. --Mattisse 00:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Do you know if this is correct: zaojing (的博客)? --Mattisse 00:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought you knew everything! (I'm disillusioned now!) --Mattisse 00:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Picture of word
There is a picture of the Chinese word on this web page: (It is a glossary). But I do not know how to find the figures. I have the characters in by book also. --Mattisse 00:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Self-portrait
Maybe you have some input, I'm working on the article Self-portrait and I'd like a section on Asian self-portraiture. I haven't found anything on Wikipedia or commons. If my memory serves weren't some zen painters from the 12th to 17th centuries also doing self portrayals as characters? Thanks - Modernist 15:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * We are ok, found a few, thanks for your note. Modernist 11:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Novel
Have you ever read the 1930 novel "Gladiator" by Philip Wylie? The main character, Hugo Danner, is believed to be a partial inspiration for Superman. I just recently finished reading the book and expanded the Hugo Danner article. I added a section about his powers and a picture and will add a section about the similarities between superman and Hugo later. If you haven't read it, I believe the novel's main article has a free online version of the book. I bought a 1951 edition of the book on amazon for $7. Check it out. --Ghostexorcist 10:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Image:Songyue Pagoda.jpg
Hi, a user raised a good question while this image was shown on the main page: The stamp was taken in 1958 and copyright law in China states that copyrights expire 50 years after the author's death. Do you recall why this image is PD? -- lucasbfr talk 09:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Song Emperors
Hello Pericles. How is everything? I wonder which names of the emperors you are referring to? Please be specific. Ktsquare (talk) 03:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reading the appendices of Chinese sources and dictionaries shall be a start. Ktsquare (talk) 13:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Help with a page
Hi! I know that you have contributed enormously to articles concerning history of China, and your grammatical and editing skills are quite good as well. I stumble across the Xi'an article and noticed in the past few days, a user have added an extensive (actually humongous) amount of new informations and pictures to the article. Most of the newly added informations are very poorly written (as if wrote by someone with little English skill), and placed poorly. Basically, the grammatical aspect of the article is sort of "ruined" and it needs extensive "copy editing" and "clean-up". I've fixed some basic elements already but I was wonder if you could look over it and see what you can fix with it?--Balthazarduju 17:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Fishing in a mountain stream, by Xu Daoning
Hello, PericlesofAthens. Long-time no-see! :-) I came across Image:Fishing in a mountain stream.jpg earlier, and was dismayed to see that it is a poor-quality image.  I know that you have experience in Chinese-related articles and images.  Do you know of any higher-resolution images, preferrably of the entire silk?  I would like to examine such an image, but I assume it would be in the public domain due to Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.  Your experience would be very appreciated.  :-)  Thanks in advance, Iamunknown 06:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Question
I would like to ask your advice about something. Not too long ago I wrote an article called zaojing that was going to be part of a series on ancient traditional Chinese architectural terms, much like I did for Indian architectural terms.

A week or so ago I discovered that zaojing had turned into a #REDIRECT and the contents had been emptied into Caisson (Asian architecture). (The editor also took the Dougong article  and put the contents into the Caisson (Asian architecture) article, but no redirect, thank goodness.) I complained on ANI that this had happened without warning, no MERGE or anything so for now it is reversed. The editor was told that he needs to place mergeto and mergefrom tags in these articles and engage in a discussion.

My question to you is, should I just let the merge go ahead when this request comes up? It seems he and I are the only ones interested. The other editor is continuing to explore ways to get around the MERGE.

My reason for the zaojing name is from my ancient Chinese architecture books, that the word was specifically Chinese. Plus, I am in general against merging everything into everything, so that if a person wants to find out what zaojing means, that person has to read a whole article, Caisson (Asian architecture), that focuses mostly on the Forbidden City.

But I want your honest opinion. What do you think? -- Mattisse 00:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Err.... not trying to extend the argument... honestly
Hey Pericles, I was meaning to ask for your opinion on the above issue ^ although it seems that Mattisse got here first. I, too, would like your opinion on the matter, but instead I'll just point out a couple of things: Anyway, I didn't mean to come here to argue, and I know you're knowledgeable and intelligent enough to come to an opinion yourself. If I could trouble you to do so, could you have a read of both articles, especially this version of Caisson (Asian architecture) (I am asking you read an old version because Mattisse has made significant changes and the current version, I feel, is substandard), and perhaps take a look at the talk page as well? Thanks PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Caisson (Asian architecture) doesn't "focus on the Forbidden City". In its version before Mattisse went about implementing his view, it only mentions the Forbidden City at one place.
 * I don't get why Mattisse thinks I "copied" dougong into this article, since I wrote the material on dougong in this article months before he created the article dougong.
 * Base on what I have read, "Caisson" is just the English translation of the Chinese word "zaojing" in the architectural context. I'm not sure whether Matisse is disagreeing with this view, or whether he just likes using the word "zaojing" better than "Caisson".
 * Caisson (Asian architecture) is the earlier article.

PS just in case my user name looks unfamiliar, I think the last time I spoke to you I was on my old account. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to be correct this is his version before he took the information from zaojing and added it to Caisson (Asian architecture). But, of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I think I'm giving up on my project of Chinese terminology anyway. It seems that the mindset is not the same as that of people who write articles for India. Thanks.   -- Mattisse  19:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hope that you do not think I am a pill, but I removed the reference from my Chinese architecture book from the Caisson article as it was used in a way that misrepresents the content. The primary references for the Caisson article are and the OED. He can have it his way but I will remove the incorrect material that he added from zaojing.  -- Mattisse  19:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your considered opinion Pericles. I will try to hammer out a consensus with Mattisse because I just don't have the time to run a full merger debate. However, if all else fails, I guess we would have to resort to that. Cheers, PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

PS, with regard to Mattisse's comments above: he is still talking about "his" sources and materials. I just don't get it. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Surprise
I confess I am surprised that you have no respect for authorities on Chinese architecture and equate them with the Oxford English Dictionary. Caisson is not even a common term in Western architecture as used in Caisson (Asian architecture) -- in fact it is not used at all as it is applied the definition in Caisson (Asian architecture) and Wikipedia would not accept an article on Western architecture with that title. It would be merged with coffer or cupola or some other commonly accepted Western term.

There are available several Chinese architecture books by authors who are considered authorities on the history of Chinese architecture (and who refer to Needham liberally by the way). And I have spent a great deal of time reading and trying to understand the history of architecture in China, just as I did with India. If your feeling is that the Oxford English Dictionary is a better source that scholarly books on the subject, then I will remove my sources from articles on the history of Chinese architecture.

There is a great book on Chinese Imperial City Planning which is quite interesting and was planning to start an article on specifically that subject (as the subject intertwines with Chinese history). I was planning on consulting with you. However, since our views are so different on the issue of the respect accorded to Chinese architecture, I will drop this plan as I do not want to be undermined.

It is too bad that all the world's architecture is subsumed under Western architecture. But I understand that you are a Westerner so most likely that is the way you look at it also. Unlike India, there do not seem to be authentic Chinese on the en Wikipedia to globalize Chinese architectural articles.

It was great working with you on the articles we did work together. I am sorry our views are so different regarding how Chinese architecture should be respected.

Regards, -- Mattisse 13:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Society of the Song Dynasty
Thank you for your comment. I came across the article while reviewing Featured Article Candidates, and hoped my addition would be helpful. Regards, Rosiestephenson 20:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to have a look, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to get to it. It will probably take me a few days. In the future, I'd rather be asked for feedback before it gets to FAC. Cheers. – Scartol  ·  Talk  16:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I did indeed see your responses. I've been busy with other stuff, but I've cleared my schedule for some of today, and this article is the first item on the to do list. – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Hello
Hey, PericlesofAthens. I have been busy too. :-\ I'd really like a high-resolution copy of that work, so I'm going to keep on the lookout. Thanks for your help! :-) Cheers, Iamunknown 05:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

recruitment
Hi Pericles

I'm trying to get the WikiProject History on track and I need some competent support, so I'm trying to recruit some good editors. Greetings Wandalstouring 14:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice to know, yes you are quite ahead, my article editing made slow progress the last couple of months and is likely to continue this way. Wandalstouring 10:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A request
Hello again PericlesofAthens, I have been researching for the architectural theory article, and I was wondering if I could copy some of your work to fill in the section on the middle ages. Basically I want to use your information about Li Jie, Yu Hao, and their writings, but I haven't read the sources and am finding it difficult to summarise and keep the refs credited. Would you mind if I copied some of your work from architecture of the Song Dynasty over to that article including the refs, I will credit you in the edit summary, or you can write it on the architectural theory page yourself if you want. Regards, D. Recorder 05:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll be working on this article in the next couple weeks, and will incorporate some of your information supplementing it with Liang Sicheng's book when I do. Regards, D. Recorder 19:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

fr:Shen Kuo
Thanks for your documented stub. I don't know this man, but I'll try to translate the english version Shen Kuo. Good job ;) ThrillSeeker 16:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

220CE
You might want to change that. It appears as though the battle occurred in 220, as opposed to 208. Gamer Junkie 23:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the article's not about the Han Dynasty's collapse, it's about the Battle of Chibi and the article is presented from a 208 point of approach. You've added something that's going to completely confuse casual readers. Gamer Junkie 23:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Red Cliffs

 * Thanks for your comments re Battle of Red Cliffs, for your helpful edits, and for adding Category:Battles of the Han Dynasty. The first sentence of the article does say the events were immediately prior to the 3K era.. but as you said, the main players are there, plus the events are described in the novelized account... Thanks!!
 * There seem to be minor disagreements over several small issues. I'm sure we'll sort them out. Thanks! --Ling.Nut 02:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Shen Kuo
Any reason why you consider Shen Kuo at Bookrags.com a high quality link? The excerpt is less than 600 words and doesn't really contain anything new. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  03:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

China
This isn't the first time it's happened. Peter zhou, or whatever user name he happens to be using at the moment, is so caught up in the idea that "Zhongguo should be translated as Central Kingdom" that he just wants to get rid of "Middle Kingdom" - which is undue weight bordering on OR given that almost everyone translates it as "Middle Kingdom", regardless of the "correctness" of it. We're here to report, not to judge the "correctness" of something.

Protection: based on past experience, that user won't compromise. The current version is the result of much concession from the opposing side, but he never agreed to it in the last round because he was not willing to compromise one step - and as you can see he's come back opposing it again. While I try to assume good faith, I have a feeling this won't end until 1) he gets bored and frustrated and leaves, or 2) he gets blocked for sockpuppetry.

Oh and my user page has been getting frequently vandalised since this thing started again, too. I really don't want to draw connections, but it's hard to resist. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Song Dynasty research article
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~twsung/breview/subpage/02/files/Recent_Trends_in_American_Research_in_Song_Dynasty_History.pdf

I don't know if you've read this or not, but the article is called "Recent Trends in American Research in Song Dynasty History". Check it out. --Ghostexorcist 10:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyediting "Society of the Song Dynasty"
Hi Pericles,

I've begun copyediting the article, although I've only managed the lead section so far. I suggest that you go and take a look--see if it works for you stylistically, if I've accidentally deleted important info, etc. You said in the request that one of the goals was to trim the wording; to that end, I've tried to delete redundant expressions and combine sentences. As I've also mentioned on the article's talk page, I think there's a fundamental problem with the leading just being far too long and choppy in it's flow.

Anyways, it seems you are a, if not the, main contributor to the article, so I thought'd I'd give you a heads-up about the copyediting. Let me know what you think.

--Malachirality 04:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * One last heads-up: I'm going to consider the copyedit request for this article filled and move it to proofreading in a day or two unless you have objections. I also left a similar message on the Talk page, but basically: 1. it's passed FA and (more importantly) 2. it seems to have already been copyedited! Besides, LOCE has a notorious backlog, which I hope to help clear, article by article.

Thanks! --Malachirality (talk) 07:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Image:Fishing in a mountain stream.jpg again
Hello, PericlesofAthens. I asked at commons about Image:Fishing in a mountain stream.jpg, and had the ingenuity to get a higher-resolution version, and then uploaded it! Just wanted to let you know, since I originally asked you about it up a few threads. ;o) Cheers, Iamunknown 06:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

re:request
Hello. You are welcome! For a start I looked over at the Japanese Wiki and found one map depicting it during the Sui dynasty. But I'll definitely spend time researching this topic and try to produce a map. Pojanji (talk) 01:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Zhang Han (general)
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Zhang Han (general), and it appears to be very similar to another wikipedia page: :. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page&mdash; you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 20:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello! When you wish to rename an existing article (for instance, in order to make room for a disambiguation) it is important that you do not copy-and-paste the contents to a new article. The GFDL, the license under which Wikipedia is distributed, requires that the edit history be preserved along with the contents so that every contributor is properly credited. You should, instead, use the move function (visible in a tab above the article in the default user interface) to rename the article.  The previous name will contain a redirect which you can then edit into the correct disambiguation page. Thanks! &mdash; Coren (talk) 14:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

European ambassador sent to Song China in 1081
You can read about it on CHF here. The person who wrote the sourced article is a scholar named Yang Xianyi. The ambassador is identified as Simon I de Montfort. I just added the material to Simon’s page here. I would love to look into this further. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for correcting "gives" to "gifts". I have a nasty habit of thinking about two different things at once while typing and the corrected mistake is the end result. Anyway, I love the new link you added to the CHF thread. Cross-cultural exchanges are some of my favorite subjects to read about. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 11:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do like reading about Ricci too. This is partly because he was the first westerner to learn of the Kaifeng Jews, which are involved in the novel I am writing. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 11:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * College of New Jersey history professor Thomas T. Allsen claims it was the Seljuk Turks and not the Europeans who visited China in 1081 and 1091. He says the “Rum” mentioned in the records is the Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm (and not 'Rome'). (see pg. 9) He also states the "Ta-shih, the Abbasid Caliphate,...sent fifty or so missions to [China] between 966 and 1116."


 * On another note, I've been corresponding with Prof. Brian E. McKnight, author of various scholarly Song Dynasty related works. I can give you his email if you want to ask him some questions. It's up to you. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ming Dynasty Edits
Hi Pericles, You stated that the Qing did scare the Shun into submission, and that the latter army fled Beijing. But didn't the Qing battle the Shun army outside the captial? It's known as the battle of ShangHaiGuan.

http://www.china-defense.com/history/1644/1644-10.html

I know it's not a official source in any way, but it has the most detailed information on it.

Gnip 4:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

If it's a yes, is it alright with you if I included the battle between Wu and LiZicheng instead of just having it say that the Shun army fled Beijing? In my opinion just saying that the Shun army fled would give the impression that they left without a fight. If so I will also add the uncertainty of LiZiCheng's final fate, since you seem to agree with this as well.

Gnip 7:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome, I will add the battle of ShanGanLing, the fleeing of Beijing, and the most commonly accepted fate of LiZeCheng. I'll let you do the boring stuff on "cleaning it up".

Gnip 1:27, 29 Novermber 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Song_Dynasty,_jade_cup,_12th-13th_century.jpg
Thank you for uploading Image:Song_Dynasty,_jade_cup,_12th-13th_century.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Jusjih (talk) 02:52, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Black slaves in Tang dynasty?
Not sure if you've read this before - - but that's a paper written in 1930 about the possible importation of black slaves to China during the Tang dynasty. Are there more recent studies on this? And do you think this topic can constitute an article here on WP? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have read the above article before. The book Snow, Philip. The Star Raft: China's Encounter With Africa. Cornell Univ. Press, 1989 (ISBN 0801495830) mentions the import of east African slaves by Arab traders during the Tang-Song Dynasties. These slaves were called (along with Southeast Asians) "Kun-lun", a generic term used to classify all dark-skinned people. It says the Tang Chinese believed the African slaves had supernatural strength, were great swimmers, and their black skin was actually a magic black salve that could cure diseases. But Song Chinese later learned they were only scared mortal men who were kidnapped from their homeland and forced to into slavery in China. Only the richest Chinese own these slaves.


 * I have not read it myself, but there is also the journal article The Magical Kunlun and "Devil Slaves": Chinese Perceptions of Dark-skinned People and Africa before 1500 (The linked article is just a summary of the actual research paper). I hope this helps. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 07:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Technology of the Song Dynasty
Hi,Pericles of Athens, I am Mywood from zh wiki. Now I am translating Technology of the Song Dynasty to Chinese, it is a really amazing article. I have a small question of note 4, "Needham, Volume 3, 618." and not 5, "Needham, Volume 3, 415-416." Does this means Science and Civilization in China: Volume 3, the Mathematics and the Sciences of the Heavens and Earth? But it is not listed in References. Could you help me to double check it? Thank you very much.--Mywood2004 (talk) 09:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi again,would you please double check chapter "Gunpowder warfare"? It states:In a battle in 932, the Battle of Langshan Jiang (Wolf Mountain River), the naval fleet of the Wen-Mu King was defeated by Qian Yuanguan because he had used 'fire oil' ('huo you') to burn his fleet. As far as I know, Qian Yuanguan(钱元瓘) was Wen-Mu King(文穆王), and the guy he defeated was HuaiNan(淮南) Yang Wei(杨渭). I have checked it in Wu Yue Bei Shi(吴越备史), and the auther of Wu Yue Bei Shi is Qian Yan(钱俨), who was son of Qian Yuanguan. --Mywood2004 (talk) 15:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot. The pictures in Technology of the Song Dynasty are fantastic. I don't have any excuse for not using them. -)--Mywood2004 (talk) 09:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ming Dynasty article
Hello PericlesofAthens, I love the work you have done to expand articles regarding Imperial China. I noticed that you recently started expanding the Ming Dynasty article and I like that somebody has finally started to do it, but the article is too long and cluttered which makes it difficult to read. I really liked the way you expanded the Song Dynasty article and how neat and clean the article looks, mostly because you created separate articles regarding the architecture, culture, economy, history, society, and technology of the Song Dynasty. I suggest that you create separate articles for the Ming Dynasty as well so the page doesn't look so cluttered, and I would be very happy to help you do this. Daniel Chiswick (talk) 08:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I was thinking of shortening the article slightly and summarizing so we could create separate articles and go into greater detail, like what you did with the Song Dynasty. Daniel Chiswick (talk) 09:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Well there are just so many subsections, you could always merge some and summarize them. I am very tired right now since it is 2 in the morning so I don't know how to properly explain this, but I think the way you edited the Song Dynasty was absolutely perfect and would be a good model. There are fewer but longer subsections, which is what I think should be done to the Ming Dynasty article. Also there are so many pictures in all sizes and it doesn't look very uniformed, unlike the Song Dynasty article. I am only trying to help and I'm sorry if I can't explain it any better but I just think the article should be more streamlined, like the Song Dynasty article. Daniel Chiswick (talk) 10:11, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Great job! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * My minor edit was far from being an improvement to the page, but thanks anyway. I just added the page number as you requested. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Gong hey fat choy to you too. -- Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see my comments on User:Balthazarduju's repeated reversion of my summary 160 to 200 million in the lead section. Maybe you can persuade him (if you agree with me, that is!). --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not making a new suggestion: perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I'm not suggesting putting all the reference in the body of the article itself—it would soon get overwhelming, & even in the Red Cliffs it rather interrupts the flow of the text.  However, I agree that hyperlinking the references in the footnotes would be nice.  It's your call! --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No objection as long as you're referring to a footnote rather than the text of the lead. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * PS Oh, I see what you've done. I think the wording is fine, but I still think it's out of place to refer to Fairbank & Ebrey in the text here: heck, this is only the 2nd sentence of the article & already they're throwing scholarship at us!  My suggestion:


 * Estimates for the population in the late Ming era vary from 160 to 200 million people. [footnote] 


 * Footnote: See (Fairbank 2006:128) for the lower and (Ebrey 1999:197) for the higher estimate.


 * BTW You still need to fix the Fairbank link. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 12:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Looks good now. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 12:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No: looking at it again now that the dust has settled, I think you should remove the Cref template—fun though it may be—& replace it with a simple footnote (as with the remaining 211 notes!). Otherwise the question immediately arises: what's so special about this one footnote?
 * If you want to hear my personal preference one last time, I really think that in the 2nd sentence of the lead we don't want to get bogged down in questions of scholarly estimates etc: it would be quite enough to say The population in the late Ming was between 160 (million, of course, not 160 people) and 200 million (people, of course: not pigs or ducks). The footnote will then give the added references necessary for those who want to go into this in depth.  But ... I can live with the text as it stands if you prefer it that way! --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * PS As it is, you've already quite correctly shown enough scholarly precision in saying the late Ming.--NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you follow UK politics? You might be amused by this --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the Barnstar: I'm flattered & honoured! --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 20:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey
My name? Made it up. Used it in the internet elsewhere... google search reveals - ummm... around 200 hits or something I thought Kirlston - somehow the K looked good - also I liked the idea of having 4 consonants together R-L-S-T - and sounded Swedish, Danish or Dutch or - Norse-man-ish somehow, (pretty neat).

...

Glad you liked my suggestion in the FAC of Ming Dynasty... it's a long article... It makes it difficult or at least time-intensive for me to judge it's general quality as a result.

I made some edits to Three Kingdoms - (after) I noticed you were part of the Wikiproject. Hope I helped there too.

Sincerely,

Kiyarr lls ton

[message posted at 22:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)]

History section
I see Daniel Chiswick above had some similar kind of concerns. I have no expertise on the topic, but I'll take a look and see what I can do. In the meantime, why not create the redlink main article? - as you say, it can already be further expanded than what is in the MD article. --Dweller (talk) 11:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've done a job on a very small section here ditching arguably less essential material (that should be in a main "History of" article) and also some copyediting. Take a look. --Dweller (talk) 11:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I've created the History article and am now pruning the history section of the FAC. I'll raise queries here: Adding more as I find em. --Dweller (talk) 12:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Although a Confucian, Hongwu had a deep distrust for the scholar-officials of the gentry class and was not afraid to have them beaten in court for offenses" I'm not sure I understand the connection between the first 3 words and the next few. More generally, can this be ditched altogether? It hardly seems essential information in the context of the history of the entire dynasty? Not sure so I've left it for now.
 * Ditto for the rest of that parag about the exams.

Hey
Three things.


 * 1) Calm down.
 * 2) Read WP:OWN
 * 3) Calm down.

I might have repeated myself there, but it's quite important. --Dweller (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I refer you back to points 1 and 3 above. I'm happy to discuss with you but not while you're flapping. Calm down and we can talk. In the meantime, I refer you to my user contributions - I've not edited anything Ming related for about 30 hours... if for no other reason, that should show you that there's no need to be jumping up and down. Chill out and I'll talk with you when I can find the time from RL. --Dweller (talk) 20:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Let's start. First up, I'm taking time out from RL for you... I don't normally edit at weekends... so my contributions here may be patchy. Sorry in advance. Right, can we agree that there was no "harm" done by creating the article History of the Ming Dynasty? Even if nothing at all were deleted from the Ming Dynasty article, more detail can be added to the History article that would be inappropriate for the main article? If you agree on that we can continue. --Dweller (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

1345
Awesome! Id like to work with you on the 14th century article if you're up for it. Wrad (talk) 03:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni
You fixed the cite. Thanks for that. Happyme22 (talk) 05:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

A little request
Hi!

I haved deleted all Islamic related articles in some articles of Chinese dynasties. I think Editingman (and look at his contributions) weren't a vandal but he could be an extremely Muslim because he was added his Islamic articles which all were superfluous and un-needed; it's just like promotion or advertising for his Islam!And I appreciate your neutral revisions!

Could you send a warning for his vandalism because you are one of the professional contributors in Chinese ralated articles!Thank so much and best wishes to you in 2008!!

Angelo De La Paz (talk) 09:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Your copyedit request
On 8 July 2007, you made a request to the League of Copyeditors for a copyedit of Technology of the Song Dynasty. Because of a heavy backlog and a shortage of copyeditors, we have been unable to act on your request in a timely manner, for which we apologize. Since your request, this article may have been subject to significant editing and may no longer be a good candidate for copyediting by the League. If you still wish the League to copyedit this article, please review this article against our new criteria and follow the instructions on the Requests page. This will include your request in our new system, where it should receive more prompt attention. Finetooth (talk) 00:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Your copyedit request
On 9 April 2007, you made a request to the League of Copyeditors for a copyedit of Song Dynasty. Because of a heavy backlog and a shortage of copyeditors, we have been unable to act on your request in a timely manner, for which we apologize. Since your request, this article may have been subject to significant editing and may no longer be a good candidate for copyediting by the League. If you still wish the League to copyedit this article, please review this article against our new criteria and follow the instructions on the Requests page. This will include your request in our new system, where it should receive more prompt attention. Finetooth (talk) 03:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Congrats
Congrats on the FA Ming and the GA Rebellion of Cao Qin. Awesome accomplishments!! Josuechan (talk) 06:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well done—what wonderful news! Just goes to show that hard work pays off. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Pagoda of Fogong Temple
Hello. Nice job on Pagoda of Fogong Temple. I thought I should let you know that I moved the article from Pagoda of Fugong Temple to Pagoda of Fogong Temple. You must have made a mistake in the spelling! -  Milk's   Favorite   Cookie  03:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect to change reference citation method unilaterally without consnsus as you did on Ancient Chinese wooden architecture
I am requesting you to change the citation method back per Wikipedia policy on Ancient Chinese wooden architecture. You cannot just take over an article as your WP:OWN. I realize you supported User talk:PalaceGuard008 when he #Redirect Zaojing to Caisson (Asian architecture) and copy/pasted the zaojing material into his article, which he then destroyed with your support. I redirected it (Zaojing) to Ancient Chinese wooden architecture so I could keep the article valid and well referenced. Please change the citatin method back to the original method until the change is discussed and consensus reached. Regards, Mattisse  14:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Link to your backdoor post
You posted to User:PalaceGuard008's page, behind my back so to speak,  that Caisson was the better name, that you were only going on what I wrote before and you inferred that I misled you. That started his #REDIRECT and copy/paste of the zaojing article into Caisson and ultimately, to an Arbitration. Your going behind my back on that was what prompted me to comment to you that I would not work with you any more. I have learned from the October experience on the Caisson (Asian architecture) that being open and assuming the other editor will do the right thing gets an editor nowhere here, as you so aptly demonstrated to me. Mattisse 20:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Now you're simply putting words in my mouth by saying I said "Caisson was the better name". No, that's not what I said at all. After I said there's no difference in the concept between a Caisson and zaojing and that you guys should "draw straws or play rock paper scissors" to settle the matter on your own, here's what I said in addition: "because there are articles on East Asian topics that have English originated titles or exact renditions of East Asian terms." You can't get more neutral than that; that's the very definition of taking a neutral stance, by saying you could do something one way or the other. Now you are blaming me for something PalaceGuard008 did? I'm sorry, I fail to see how my tiny input had anything to do with his own actions. I think you are stretching my role in this about as far as possible.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 20:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a quotation from your second comment, sent to PalaceGuard008 only, and not on the article talk page nor to me.

I had explained to you why the Chinese terminology was important to me. If you don't know what "all the the fuss is about ...", that only means it is not important to you. You are inferring that it is ridiculous that it is important to someone else. Well, it was important enough to generate an illegal #REDIRECT and copy paste. I wonder how you would feel if an issue that was important to you was treated that way. Judging from your reaction over the citations, I would say you might see what "all the the fuss is about" when it is relevant in your judgment. Mattisse 20:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

What "reaction" are we talking about here? So far I've expressed mild concern with you changing the article's citations back to the original format. The only thing I've done was note that you've made a few mistakes that need fixing; it's certainly nothing to get upset about, and I fail to see the parallel with this and your ongoing edit war with PalaceGuard008. You know what, I still don't see what "all the fuss is about"; I think spending entire months bickering and fighting about obscure architectural terminology is excessive indeed. I don't think it was right for him to REDIRECT without your consent, but this is really something two mature adults could have handled in a day.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 21:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Unjustified Sinophobia in Science in the Middle Ages ?
Dear Pericles

Thanks for your supportive comment in Talk:Science in the Middle Ages and your comment “Welcome to the world of Wikipedia, where entire centuries of time may be dumbed down and simplified into one egregious statement.”

However, most ironically and regrettably, may I raise with you the arguably condescending hypocritical Sinophobic nature of the current Chinese medieval science section, but which I’m sure you do not intend. I quote some current passages:

“As Toby E. Huff notes, pre-modern Chinese science developed precariously without solid scientific theory, while there was a lacking of consistent systemic treatment in comparison to contemporaneous European works such as the Concordance and Discordant Canons by Gratian of Bologna (fl. 12th century).[144]

Despite this, Chinese thinkers of the Middle Ages proposed some hypotheses which are in accordance with modern principles of science.

In their futile experiments, they did manage to discover new metal alloys, porcelain types, and dyes. “

On the first of these passages, in the first instance it is argued by fallibilist philosophers of science that there is no such thing as sold scientific theory anywhere anytime, all scientific theory being ever fallible, fluid, precarious and even inconsistent speculation. Secondly in particular contemporary 12th century ‘Western’ science was certainly not ‘solid’ and systemically consistent, with such as Averroes struggling with the major contradiction in Aristotelian dynamics between its laws of motion and its dynamical model of celestial motion that predicted it must be infinitely fast, contrary to its assertions otherwise on orbital period. I have never read nor heard of Huff, nor of Gratian of Bologna as I recall, but this claim just comes across as nonsense given science is normally systemically inconsistent.

On the second passage, therefore not only is the same true of European thinkers of the Middle Ages in spite of their lacking a consistent systemic treatment, but why is the measure of progress or achievement in medieval science that of whether or not it was in accordance with modern science, rather than constituting progress in explaining the phenomena ?

On the third passage, why describe experiments that made important novel discoveries as being futile? May I suggest the entire first paragraph be deleted as just philosophically misinformed, pace Mr Huff, and this section should instead begin:

‘Chinese thinkers of the Middle Ages proposed some scientifically progressive hypotheses.’

Hope you find these constructive criticisms helpful.

All best

PS Love the Chinese pictures on your excellent user page

--Logicus (talk) 18:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)