User talk:PericlesofAthens/Archive 6

Uliger
Hi Pericles. Hope you had a good Christmas. I was just thinking. Uliger is up for deletion.. I wondered if you had anything on it in your books seems as its concerns a neck of the woods you seem to be resourceful in and is engrained in Mongol history. Do you think you could find something related on it to expand it? Thanks The Bald One       White cat 16:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Well User:Latebird nominated it, who of course can be quite difficult with certain Mongolian subjects. Personally I think it is a notable subject and potentially using such sources could be expanded fully. It is an intergral part of Mongol and Buryat culture and history and would semeingly be quite broad in scope and have a lot that could be written,  The Bald One       White cat 17:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I haven't got access to it, I'd imagine you have to pay a subscription? Well as I've commented at the afd I'm very surprised Latebird didn't want to discuss it first. The Bald One      White cat 17:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. I look forward to seeing the Han dynasty article once completed. My town library of course is diabolical with only one book on Tibet for instance. Cardiff library, Cardiff being the capital city of Wales is better, but from my experience does not have the kind of special books that would be required in detail on such topics. The Bald One      White cat 18:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.
The article still need some work though, see talk page for details. We need more sources comparing the two empires directly. you can use some of the information for your rewrite for han dynasty(technology, history, others) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teeninvestor (talk • contribs) 02:51, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

RFA
I saw Requests for adminship/PericlesofAthens and I was wondering if you are planning on accepting or declining the nom, as it has been hanging around the RFA space for a couple weeks now and I wanted to know how to handle it.  MBisanz  talk 09:33, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

JingKiang incident
I'm just interested, did the Jin forces use cannon in the capture of Kaifeng? Cause Song defence earlier against the Liao, despite loss of the natural borders to the north(16 prefectures) was successful due to use of gunpowder. Is part of the reason the cities fell so quickly were that by this time Jin had learned to use cannon? As I was writting my comparison article about the Han(section about Wu Hu invasions), I became aware that nomadic cavalry would have hard time against a well-stocked city, defended by crossbows; not just gunpowder weapons. How could the city fallen so quickly if artillery was not used???? Because a similar example at Luoyang in 310, the Jin court was able to hold the city for years without any aid whatsoever, and with largely civillian volunteers. Yet the song court(which was much richer and powerful) could not hold Kaifeng, with much more advanced technology and considerably more stores. It just doesn't make sense until one takes into account potential use of artillery. Either that, or the martial spirit of the Chinese empire has seriously deteoririated.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The cowardly civilian mandarin beauracrats of song were strictly against the military, and military was placed under civilian control, resuslting in a loss of martial vigor present from the shang and tang dynasties.Dentisn (talk) 18:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Pictures for comparisons of Roman and Han Empires.
I believe this article is a B-class article, but for need of some pictures. I'm just wondering, how do you get some? Cause i'm having some trouble; can you help explain to me/help me upload some?Teeninvestor (talk) 02:34, 4 January 2009 (UTC) Never mind, I got some. By the way, what areas do you think the article needs to improve in order for it to become a Good article? I read over the criteria and think that this article meets most of it.Teeninvestor (talk) 20:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC) Can you help me identify some statements that need to be sourced, expansion, general work, to bring this article up to a GA. If you have sources that can source some of my statements to bring it up to GA, please do so. Also, if I can be of any help during your revamp of han dynasty(I have read chinese history extensively), please contact meTeeninvestor (talk) 23:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, we are searching for a source. In sections where I lacked a comparison, we put the facts side by side without comparison. I should add more inline citations, as more citations are at the end of paragraphs. Anyways, thank you for your advice.Teeninvestor (talk) 20:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello there, yes I'll help edit the Roman v Han Dynasty comparisons as well. Thanks Intranetusa (talk) 02:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Open invitation
Hi, please check User talk:Arilang1234 Arilang   talk  22:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Nie Wengyi
Hi PoA. The characters for Nie Wengyi are 聶翁壹. Yan Shigu, a sixth-century annotator of the Hanshu, explained that Nie's personal name (ming 名) was Yi, and that "weng" only indicated that he was an "old man" (this is the chief meaning of weng). So you could say "Nie Wengyi" meant "Old man Nie Yi." Yan also said that later accounts sometimes used yi 懿 instead of 壹, but that this was wrong. And Mayi is 馬邑. (Of course I knew none of this before looking it up! Lol.) Glad to see your draft developing: it looks great so far! Madalibi (talk) 02:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The characters for Huduershi are 呼都而尸. I have no idea why, but his name appears only twice in the Hanshu and not once in the Hou Hanshu. And man, you're a fast writer! I'm gone for two days and your draft is almost finished?! Wow! Madalibi (talk) 02:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 100,000 bytes! Yeah! Madalibi (talk) 23:46, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So it's not just the meerkat itself, it's all the stuffing too! Lol. Madalibi (talk) 00:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I just saw it a few minutes ago. It looks amazing, and I can't believe how fast you wrote it! Congratulations for what will undoubtedly be a new featured article. Madalibi (talk) 00:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You built and decorated the house. I'm just changing a few light bulbs, removing some sratches on the floor, and retouching a few wallpaper seams. That way the article is sure to pass the FA nominaton the next time around. But congratulations for that new president you got yourself! And they say playing goalie for the Montreal Canadiens means pressure... Madalibi (talk) 03:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Glad to see that you're back to work on Wikipedia with your two new articles. I'll try to read and comment on them when I have time. (Just a quick and superficial one for now: Nishijima Sadao's surname is Nishijima, not Sadao.) Sorry I stopped proofreading the History of the Han Dynasty article: I'm overwhelmed with real work right now, and I've spent a lot of time responding to arguments by Teeninvestor about comparisons between the Ming and Qing. Interesting debate, by the way, but very time-consuming. It's on my talk page, so feel free to drop by and tell us what you think about it! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 04:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes I'm sure. His name in Japanese (where surnames also come first) is Nishijima Sadao 西島定生 (see this Google search), where Nishijima is clearly a surname and Sadao a personal name. The Cambridge online site is wrong, probably because someone who doesn't know Japanese wrote the bibliography. Madalibi (talk) 04:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The real horse patoot is the editor of the Cambridge online site! Confusions like this happen because some scholars cite Japanese and Chinese names in the native order (Nishijima Sadao, Mao Zedong, etc.), while others try to Anglicize them by reversing them (Sadao Nishijima, Bozhong Li, etc., though I've never seen "Zedong Mao"). Some people get tricked because they see the well-meaning second format ("Sadao Nishijima") and add a comma after the first part, thinking it's the surname because they know that surnames appear first in Chinese and Japanese. And that's how someone got "Sadao, Nishijima" as the author's name on the Cambridge site. In my bibliographies, I always keep Japanese and Chinese names in their native order, and I don't add a comma after the surname because the whole name is already in the right order. And I don't want to sound like a wild ass's posterior, but you'll have to learn Japanese at some point if you want to become a sinologist, especially if you want to study the Song or the history of science. But you'll have a much easier time learning Japanese once you know more Chinese characters, so don't worry about it for now! Madalibi (talk) 05:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Remember to call collect. Madalibi (talk) 06:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Economy of the Ming dynasty
How come there is no article? I have some figures on Ming steel production, economy, etc.... How come there is no section on economics in the Ming dynasty article. Would you object if i created such an article using your sources and some sources i compiled?Teeninvestor (talk) 22:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Han
Oh well - there's still WP:DYK. Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't feel that your article violates stability. Heaps of new articles have been put on FAC before and passed after the FAC period.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 05:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That is some damn fine work! How do you produce such great work on such a massive scale and still have time to do your school work? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the slow reply. I've just started the Spring quarter. Anyway, the revamped Han article is like an historical orgasm! I'll have to remember to have a spare handy wipe around the next time I read one of your articles. Good shit! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hahahaha!!! That's the funniest thing I've heard in at least a week. Thanks.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 21:19, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Das ist gut mein fuhrer! What? Have I heard about any G.I. plans to escape from the camp? I know nothing – NOTHING! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks YellowMonkey
But since I apparently violated the "spirit of Wikipedia" (to use User:Gene Nygaard's own phrase), I think I would like others to have a look at History of the Han Dynasty first and comb through it. User:Madalibi found a few mistakes that I was unaware of. In any case, I will submit the article for FA status at a later date (hopefully sooner rather than later). Cheers! :)-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 09:49, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you'd be better off reading Nygaard's block log and come to your own conclusions.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 02:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps
Hi there, I'm doing a GA sweep of the Asian history good articles promoted before August 2007, many of which seem to be your work. I can't see any of your articles being at risk of delisting during this process, although I probably will have some comments on them as I work my way through. Just giving you a heads up and suggesting that if you have time to have a quick read though the articles in the next couple of months to check that there hasn't been any deterioration it might save us both some time. All of the articles coming under review are listed here. I do have a question though: my knowledge of Chinese history of the periods covered in the Song dynasty articles is not what it should be and I'm finding myself becoming lost occassionally. Is there some sort of timeline article around that gives a clear overview so I can use it to reorientate myself? Also, I'm not sure on how far wikipedia has expanded in these areas since the articles were written, but I'm interested in military history and was wondering if there were more detailed articles available for the wars and battles mentioned in History of the Song Dynasty and if not whether there are long term plans to create them? Reagrds--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ban Chao
Hi, just wanted to tell you that I removed claims about an (alleged) expedition by Ban Chao to the Caspian Sea or even to Ukraine in 97 AD from a number of pages. The reason is I could find no mention of this expedition in a number of relevant books. Since you are probably more interested in and more familiar with Chinese history than I am, maybe you could look into it a bit, too. Just wanted to let you know. Regards, Yaan (talk) 15:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it seems the claim "Ban Chao made a military expedition to the Caspian sea" seems to be older and more common than I thought. On the other hand it's not mentioned in The Cambridge History of Iran, either. I won't re-insert it until I see this claim be made by some specialist on the Han Dynasty, or the Parthian empire, or the Huns, but until I find someone who calls this claim bunk, I also won't remove it either. Maybe you could look around a bit? Regards, Yaan (talk) 18:17, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Found something in J. Oliver Thomson, A History of Ancient Geography, Cambridge 1948, p.311: "He [Ban Chao, Y] stopped a Kushan Army which had crossed the Pamir, and he won expressions of homage from as far west as Fergana, though it is a misreading to suppose, as some have done, that he himself advanced to the Caspian". "Some" are apparently Richthofen, China, 1877, I, 469 and some others, they are denied by Yule-Cordier, p.40, Chavannes, Seidenstrassen, p.8, and by Teggart, Rome and China, 1939, p.144. I'll look if I can tun up Chavannes. Teggart is not available in my library. Regards, Yaan (talk) 11:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Sima Ai
Thanks for alerting me. Please see my response at Talk:Sima Ai. --Nlu (talk) 04:02, 22 January 2009

(UTC)

Arilang's response
Please check comments at my talk page. Arilang   talk  02:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * check my response to arilang's racist assertions and cantonese insolence.Dentisn (talk) 17:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Need your help
Hi, user Teeninvestor has written an article Economy of the Ming dynasty, and I have left some comments on it's talk page. Could you have a look when you have some spare time? Thanks. Arilang   talk  17:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Need your help again
Please check User talk:Arilang1234/Sandbox/Lao Baixing, your opinion is needed. Arilang   talk  03:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to ask for help AGAIN. This time your expertise is really needed, I have picked a bone too big for me to chew(pardon my Chinglish). Please have a look at User talk:Arilang1234/Sandbox/ Hua-Yi zhi bian and the Unification of All-under-heaven(temporary name). My idea of the article is, throughout this 3000 years of East Asia history, how this HYZB ideology affected the foreign diplomatic relations, defense policy, inter-racial relationships, wars, revolutions, etc etc, among all the three major East Asiatic countries, namely China, Japan and Korea. I am sure once you come in, this article is sure to be a success. Arilang   talk  09:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Lao Baixing
Since Lao Baixing is created, I think most of the English word Chinese in all of these history articles such as Qing, Ming and Song, Ming can be replaced with Qing Lao Baixing, Ming Lao Baixing, and Song Lao Baixing. What you think?

DYK for History of the Han Dynasty
I LOVE your new article History of the Han Dynasty! How come you have not updated the main article yet? Let me know if i can be of any help.Teeninvestor (talk) 18:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Ya I thought that the economy article needs more work because it would be very strange if the main article was actually better than the specialized one. Thanks!Teeninvestor (talk) 19:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Added economy section. Hope you don't mind!Teeninvestor (talk) 19:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Your knowledge of china is extraordinary.
As a chinese, I am extremely surprised at your knowledge of China, and I applaud you for the work you've done on all the articles on China. It's people like you who make wikipedia function!Teeninvestor (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, do you have any sources on the Liu Song dynasty (420-479) as I don't have a concrete source(bits here, bits there.)Teeninvestor (talk) 21:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

About the Liu Song, I found the best source possible, the history of the Liu Song dynasty itself: 《宋书》.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

My plan is to use it to depict chain of history events only, as you can figure out roughly what happens reading the history, like, what happened during the reign of each emperor.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

RFA
Any plans for Requests for adminship/PericlesofAthens? I am cleaning out the RFA namespace and wanted to know if it needed deleting or should be left as is.  MBisanz  talk 21:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Sivin strikes again!
If you're interested in Guo Shoujing and Chinese astronomy (and I know you are), you HAVE to check Sivin's fantastic new book Granting the Seasons. It has hundreds of pages of "introduction" followed by hundreds of pages of translations, plus several long appendices, an amazing index, pictures, and all the scholarly goodies you can possibly imagine. Wow! I'm taking a break from Wikipedia right now, but I thought you'd like to know. I think the book is available on Springer (I mean SpringerLink, not Jerry Springer), but I don't have access right now. Anyway, enjoy! Madalibi (talk) 09:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Han dynasty
I revamped partially the article because it was so confused. Grouped some information into a history section. Hope you dont mind and can take a look at it and improve it, cause ill be off wiki quite a bit. Teeninvestor (talk) 00:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Ming Dynasty
"2,000 words equal 10 KB" equation is wrong, as page size is calculated on basis of characters, not words because words vary in length. Also, I are not talking just about the technical "60 KB" mark, I am talking about the ease of readers. Also, the "Page size" tool I am talking about is User:Dr pda/prosesize.js, which is primarily used for DYK readable prose size calculation. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * History of the Han Dynasty is too long (88KB) too. Since it is in development stage, I am not adding the tag. Let the tag remain on Ming Dynasty, if you are busy, someone else might see the tag and do the work. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 17:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not saying that one needs to branch the article, i am saying one needs to shorten the article as much as possible. Afterall, writers write for the sake of readers. A long article creates inconvience to a reader. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 17:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Cambridge online histories of China
How do you access them? I can't. I want to see if you can access them like in the online library of liberty.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Reasons for Song military weakness
As one of the four unified period of Chinese history(the other three being Han (206BCE-220CE), T'ang (618-907CE), and Ming (1368-1644CE), Song should have been quite strong militarily. These other three periods were able to prevail over the barbarians(at least at the height of the dynasty; Ming was conquered later, mostly due to surrender of Wu Sakuei and Little Ice Age) and preserve their independance. Yet, Song which had many technological and economic achievements(invented printing press which made modern society possible, gun powder/fire lances, etc...) was very weak militarily compared to other chinese dynasties. Why?

My view(which is very incomplete) is that the Song were weak because of the imperial distrust of generals, because they had caused fall of T'ang. Also, Song lost natural frontiers in the North(sixteen prefectures.) What do you think are the reasons the Song are weak? Teeninvestor (talk) 01:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Was Liao, Xi Xia, and Jin really stronger than say, the Huns of Han or the Turks of T'ang? As nomadic horse archer nations settle down, they usually lose their ferocity and end up employing armies in a similar manner to the Main chinese state, and get routed as the main chinese state(Song) has much more resources than them.

What I really think is that the Song were too content with their current situation. In the Wu Hu uprising of 310CE, Jin forces held up in Luoyang for two years rather than let the barbarians in, despite the fact Jin military was virtually completely destroyed. Song military could not hold Kaifeng even with ample reinforcements and an obviously better situation. In T'ang and mIng for example, they had similar situations. It was a heavy loss of martial spirit that ironically came from the very economic achievements of Song itself.Teeninvestor (talk) 14:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

shang and qin dynasties were the most warlike and violent of chinese. i have sources which say the shang specifically targeted enemies like the Qiang for human sacrifice for the gods, ancestors and shangdi like the Aztecs because they though they were subhuman. skulls have been found showing human sacriface. shang dynasty enjoyed killing people. in qin they have a big icentive to kill more enemies, you get more land. and speaking of shang, all those wine drinking bronzes that were found, they had more than enough alcohol to get severely drunk. and xi xia werent horse archers

History of the Han Dynasty
The Celestial Masters are my area of Chinese expertise (I did several papers about them while in university), so it was my pleasure to correct any misinformation. As for the Economy article, I looked over it and did not see any issues. I must congratulate you on the two terrific new articles. If you need any assistance, I would be more than happy to help!Zeus1234 (talk) 22:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Economic revolution of Song
Economies of Song and Ming have a fundamental difference from han and T'ang. Maybe this deserves its own wikipedia article?

Song had printing press, allowed for spread of ideas. Song liberalized the economy. Overseas trade/investment started taking off in the Song. Banknotes, bills of exchange started in Song. Merchant elite took over from aristocrats through examination system. etc...

There was a fundamental difference. Teeninvestor (talk) 18:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I was talking about the difference between the economic development of the later 2 chinese dynasties, the Song and Ming compared to the earlier Han and T'ang.Teeninvestor (talk) 18:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

For economic history, i will need lots of help. I'm planning ot split into feudal, mercantilist, proto-capitalist sections with sections on each dynasty. As you can see, that will require lots of sources. Can you give me some? thanks.Teeninvestor (talk) 23:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Economic history of China
I plan to completely revamp it something like this:

Feudal Era
 * Beginnings- Xia
 * Further development, metallurgy- Shang
 * Jing tian- Zhou
 * "Bastard feudalism"- Spring & autumns

Mercantilist Era
 * Warring states- reforms, collapse of Jingtian/feudal system
 * Qin's reforms- Legalist, absolutist state established, China unified, standards, etc..
 * Han- early partial reversion, appearance of highly profitbale iron/salt industries, plantations, etc..
 * Three Kingdoms & Jin- Devastation, recovery.
 * Wu Hu& North/south dyansties- disruption of trade route, restoration of fedualism early on, etc...
 * Sui- instates examination system, revives Han laws, introduciton of Sotian system.
 * T'ang- government starts withdrawing, more liberalization, etc.., collapse of the Sotian system.

"Proto-capitalist" Era
 * Song- invention of printing press, economic revolution, paper notes, collapse of hereditary nobility, investment, first overseas trade, etc..
 * Yuan- Mongol devastation of North, state-sanctioned trade at Quanzhou.
 * Ming- expansion of Song, privatization of enterprises, merchant class is empowered through examination system, overseas trade expanded, economic imperialism(Langfang republic, Tungning kingdom).
 * Qing- Intial feudal disruptions(Booi aha), destruction of shore line, slow recovery in Kangxi, stagnation later, effects of opium, and gradual decline in 19th century.

Modern Era:
 * ROC- initial attempts at reform, militayr industries developed for war with Japan, stock markets, etc..
 * PRC(Mao)- transition to planned economy, Great Leap forward, cultural revolution & stagnation.
 * PRC(Deng)- transition to market economy, prosperity, liberalization, "chengbao" system, now almost 80% of US industrial production, revival of Chinese civilizations, etc...

I have only one source dealing with pre-ROC Chinese economic history, a 2000 page book called "5000 years of CHinese history". It has some details, but one paragraph for each section would do. Can you help me get some sources? thank you. Note: notes you had with Han and Song dynasties will be appreciated. Teeninvestor (talk) 01:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC) I added a SOURCED sentence to teh Ming dynasty article, hope you don't mind.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2009 (UTC) Ya, my plan is to add a brief paragraph in each seciton using the sources I have now, and then flesh out the details(like your Economy of the Song dynasty. I'm probably going to need your help. On wikipedia, I usually do contribute a lot fo content, but I'm not too great at details(Lack of details made me lose my 98 mark in science, and thus 95 average! Urg!). And plus, I am a "teen" investor after all. The book I have is strange, it seems to have more detail about pre-Han, rather than later.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Cambridge Histories of China
Do you know any way of accessing them? I would need them severely but I do not have any way of access them. I don't want to resort to torrents. If wealth of nations and history of the decline/fall fo the Roman Empire is available, I don't see why Cambridge isn't.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:59, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Structure of Economic histoyr of china
I'm setting up the structure, and filling in the gaps, as we go, can you help me fill some using information fromEconomy of hte Han dynasty and Economy of the Song dynasty.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I have a sinking feeling my ambition overran itself; check Economic history of China. Do you think I overdid it?Teeninvestor (talk) 01:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

New Plan: As I finish each section, I move most of the content to another article like Economic history of Feudal China, Economic history of Warring states China, etc...Teeninvestor (talk) 13:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

BS figures for List of regions by past GDP
Han, T'ang and Song had much more population than India, as well as better agricultural technology(India was mired by feudal system of production and caste society, and was in constant warfare). India's population did surpass China at one point, at the Gupta dynasty(because of Wu Hu) but that lasted barely 50 years, and once the Gupta collapsed(to Huna, aka the avars/rouran) the resulting depopulation was about 30-50%. Even the height of Gupta(India's golden age, along with earlier Maurya)was barely 40 million, less than Sui dynasty. How could they say India had highest GDP for so long? the figures are obviously made up by a man who has not much knowledge. India in 1000CE probably ahd even less population than Gupta due to constant warfare. What do you think, Pericles? Also, what percentage of world GDP did Song have? I suspect it is over 40%, as Ming had over 30% and by then Europe/Arabia was catching up. Song had one-third of world's population and if they maintained same percapita, it would be over 50%! However, I would not put it in without sources.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, take a look at economic history of China, I've written the lead and leads for all the eras.What do you think of the prose? By the way, I think that I'll need some help. Maybe Arilang1234, Madalibi, etc.., can help?Teeninvestor (talk) 00:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Ya I had an early interest in economics starting when I read "Introduction to Microeconomics" When I was 13. Didn't understand it! but i'm sure you have lots of info as you wrote Economy of the Song dynasty and Economy of the Han dynasty.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:53, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you can work on Han dynasty info as you still have the notes? I am done feudal era(basics). Not much to say about these eras due to lack of data.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Done warring states & Qin now; maybe i skip Han to do wei & Jin, while you do Han?Teeninvestor (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

migration of northern chinese to southern china
am i correct in asserting that the majority of southern chinese are ethnic chinese migrants who came from northern china after northern peoples ie. Wu hu, xianbei, Jurchen, Mongol pushed them south?. there must be documentation of the migrations in your history books. because someone has been pushing a B.S. POV that everyone in china stayed static for the past 5,000 years, and that the southern chinese are descendent of Yue people, and that northern chinese have been in the same place for 5,000 years! i beleive in Mr. Gernet's books, he mentions ethnic han chinese migrations to the red river in vietnam, and other places in southern china, and wuhu, xianbei, and jurchen migrations into northern china. this should be reinforced and correct the misleading assumption that all peoples in china were static for the past 5,000 years. And i think linguistic evidence supports this- it has always been asserted that southern chinese dialects are closer to Old Chinese than Mandarin Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.79.163 (talk) 04:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * But of course the vast majority of southern Chinese are directly related to migrants who came north throughout the centuries. This is well-documented. The first great migration south occurred during the Eastern Han period (25–220 CE); the Han census of the 2nd century CE reflects this very well (about 10 million new inhabitants around and south of the Yangzi region). The second great migration happened after the Jin Dynasty moved its capital to Nanjing in the 4th century CE. Migration south continued in the Tang Dynasty (618–907 CE), as urban centers, rice paddy agriculture, and seaports in the south became more prominent. However, the greatest shift occurred during the Southern Song (1127–1279) when the Han court was moved from Kaifeng to Hangzhou, along with new borders between Song and Jin around the Huai River. Southern maritime trade during the Southern Song period exceeded the levels of trade in all other periods of Chinese history up to that point. By the Ming Dynasty (1368–1644 CE), southern China was considered far more developed than northern China. See the article on the Korean traveler Choe Bu for this.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 04:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * it would help if you can put a few sources on this at the Han Chinese talk page, because an ip troll kept inserting info from a taiwan independence website that claims "southern chinese are descended from yue, and are different from ....blah blah.... the "pure" northern chinese... blah blah blah". theres also a vietnamese user trying to do something similar at nanyue, claiming that cantonese and vietnamese "share a common ancestry in ancient yue peoples". and that nanyue people are pure vietnamese. several anti chinese users jumped on this oppurtunity, by supporting the ip troll to keep his paragraph in the han chinese article. if the correct information goes down on the talk page, the ip troll will have to shut up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.79.163 (talk) 07:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * example of the vandalism and trolling

anon ip claiming southern chinese are not chinese, using the source i mentioned this guy is making himself look so stupid its laughable every single linguist would disagree with him.
 * I've taken a look, but to be honest, I can't help right now. I'm really busy and cannot be on my computer for the rest of the day. I'll take another look at this later.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 21:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I read those two articles which are cited in the Taiwanese section of Han Chinese; both news sources looked legit and cited the research of actual geneticists, professors, doctors, etc., such as Lin Mali. However, the person who mentioned Yue peoples failed to mention something already pointed out in the article: that these people have been mixed over time with Han Chinese settlers who came from the north in waves of migrations. I have amended the article to fit what the source has to say in full. I hope this is enough for you, because the topic of genetics really doesn't interest me. Right now I'm working on several different articles for the Han Dynasty, not Han people.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 17:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I dont mean to bore you more, but a quick glance at the bottom report, which shows that there are unique markers among vietnamese people, based on history, im not asking for you to take a position because these have been used endlessly in political POV fights, but shouldnt the 7 new markers in this report be the "Yueh" markers, and the southern chinese descended from the ancient migrant from north, right in Gernet's book he says people from north china migrated to vietnam red river valley during 3 kingdoms. Dr. Lin decided to twist her findings into a political game, and claims that the southern chinese DnA/markers, or whatever she found were yueh, despite the report which shows that there are unique markers among vietnamese, which would logically correspond to the yueh peoples, she claims southern chinese are yueh and that northern chinese are pure, despite the fact that the wu hu, jurchen, and mongols mass migrated into northern china. After all, Dr. Lin has no Phd in history and this should qualify for the removal of the "descedants of yueh peoples". its just like mahmoud amadenijad denying the holocaust, despite the fact that his doctorate is in electrical engineering and not european history


 * Hmm. You make good points. She failed to mention anything about the intermarriage of Han Chinese with various northern nomadic groups throughout the centuries, but then again that wasn't the focus of her study (i.e. "Taiwanese people", or more specifically, those who were "Hoklo people" originating from parts of southern China). Still, the use of "pure" even for northern Chinese would be a ridiculous term to use, considering the genetic diversity of people who consider themselves northern Chinese (or for that matter, the genetic diversity of those who consider themselves southern Chinese). I wouldn't jump on this and immediately say it is politically motivated, but it is kind of fishy, I will admit. Have you mentioned Ivanova, Astrinidis, and Lepage's article in the page for Han Chinese yet? (I haven't looked.)-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 07:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * i did but someone removed it. i think it would be better if Dr. Lin had just presented the results (the specific genetic markers and DNA), and kept her mouth shut, we should just display the direct results of these tests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.243.209 (talk) 19:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Miao_people, this is unsourced, but ive heard this elsewhere and im sure this is part of the ancient legends of the chinese and miao peoples. this would logically correspond to the fact that the hakka, cantonese, other chinese, and the Miao, originically came from northern china, after the ancestors of the current northern chinese, the wuhu, jurchen etc. pushed them south, and the yueh obviously would have migrated southn, and set off a chain reaction where the negritos were driven to small enclaves. given that Dr. Lin's comment is displayed on the article despite the fact that she has no PHD in history, should also qualify for a statemet that says those seven markers are the only remnants of yueh, and that the "southern chinese" DNA is from the north. Since this would qualify original research, Dr. Lin's statement is equally original research, because she has provided zero sources and no credentials to back up her ridiculous claims. the fact that Taiwanese aboriginals have different DNA from hakka and minnan should be an enough giveaway to blow her claims to pieces, because they would logically be related to the yueh peoples.


 * Also the fact that japanese Red Cross Central Blood Center, Tokyo, Japan,  4 Department of Human Genetics, Graduate School of Medicine, University of Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan is mentioned in there is suspicious. if your familiar with taiwan independence movement, you'd know that they are heavily backed up and supported by japan. take a look at the DPP's website, they are a pro independence party in taiwan, and they even have a japanese language version, no such japanese language version exists on the KMT's website  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.243.209 (talk) 19:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If Dr. Lin's research is faulty, surely a credible authority and reliable source exists somewhere out there which criticizes or proves false her findings. If you can find that source and scholarly authority, use it to counter Lin's research (much more effective than removing her claim, since it presents her claim and then debunks it for the reader). I really don't feel like going on a scavenger hunt for this myself, since I'm doing other things right now. Don't you want to see all the Han Dynasty articles completed soon? Lol. Take care.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 21:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * i think its exactly the point that no one has countered her is because her research is literally junk, therefore we should not keep junk on here. if a respected and well known rocket scientist claims ancient egyptians were launching rockets, do you think you'd want him to show us his PHD in egytology?


 * and dont you want to publish any works you write in the future, putting them on wikipedia is a bad idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.138.237 (talk) 04:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for the clarification on the matter of the invention of paper. Just a suggestion though. Should the Chinese inventions page state "Paper-making process" rather than "paper" so that it would accurately clarify the development of the history of paper?

I myself visit the Chinese inventions page from time to time. I am one of the writers of Timeline of United States inventions and discoveries as a bunch of us are continuously working on updating and adding citations to our American list. Nevertheless, thank you for explaining the reasoning behind the paper invention. --Yoganate79 (talk) 06:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand perfectly what you are saying. One quick question though, there seems to be a big emphasis on Chinese inventions from antiquity. Has China not invented anything modern within the past 200 or so years worth mentioning? I am not an expert on Chinese inventions or anything developed from the East as you seem to be. So I am just wondering. --Yoganate79 (talk) 07:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Compared to the U.S., China doesn't appear to be technologically advanced in the fields of space exploration, modern medicine and biotechnology, as well as computer science. Granted, China has overwhelmingly accomplished so much in its history, but their notoreity stems from ancient times whereas the U.S. is the modern day leader in inventions. I just wonder when China becomes more powerful in the future if that will one day change and match American innovation and ingenuity. --Yoganate79 (talk) 07:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Economy of the Han Dynasty
Shubinator (talk) 02:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism in Economic history of China
Ya, I already had 3 instances of vandalism, for some reason ppl r starting to vandalize stuff. By the way, i haven't worked on it since I finished Wei & Jin, will until next week. Can you do Han and Song, and say, Madalibi do Qing, cause this is a pretty big project. I plan to do a basic point for each section, and then read Cambridge history of China, Chinese Economy in economic persepctive, and update it with details. Then I will move it out of hte userbox.Teeninvestor (talk) 23:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC) Thank You!Teeninvestor (talk) 02:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
I haven't been working on it lately due to other things. Will be working on it on the weekend.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

New book on 秦始皇
Please have a look at http://news.boxun.com/forum/200902/lishi/11116.shtml, it should be a very interesting book. Arilang   talk  03:41, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Science and technology of the Han Dynasty
A real bitch-from-hell on wheels! I've only surveyed it, but it looks well written, well referenced, and of FA quality (yes, as usual...). Just one small detail for now: I can't find "Deng (2005)" in the bibliography (yeah, I know!!!!). For this whole effort on the Han, your barn should soon get a new sidereal decoration on it (as soon as I figure out how to use those damn templates, that is). Bye! Madalibi (talk) 15:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Sui, T'ang, Ming, Qing, Modern Era, still up for grabs.
The article is about 40% complete but I still need to do Sui, T'ang, Ming, Qing, and Modern Era while you do Han and Song. The sections I've already finished are not the important ones, I feel that Han, T'ang, Song and Ming are the important ones(Main Chinese dynasties). When will you start working on the economics article? What do you think of the work so far? I'm thinking of skipping Sui and Tang and doing Yuan and Ming first. Also keep in mind just to put very small details in each section, right now the point is to have something for each section. I still haven't decided to make this a single article or a series of articles(e.g. Economy of the Sui dynasty, Economy of the Han dynasty, Economy of the Song dynasty, etc...). I like the single article idea better, though the article is already 66KB. Maybe we will have get rid of the modern era, and rename it Economic history of Pre-1911CE China. Or we could have different articles, but im not sure Economic history of the Song dynasty is much different from Economy of the Song dynasty. The economic history might end up being a timeline, e.g. development of paper, banking, Jurchens come in, moves south, continued development, Mongols come in. Teeninvestor (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Help with GA review of Thomas Metcalfe (US politician)
Pericles, could i request that you have a quick glance of the article Thomas Metcalfe (US politician) that i am doing a GA review on and add some comments to the review page? I have made a few comments but your opinion would be helpful. MarquisCostello (talk) 20:46, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries, at your convenience. I made further progress with it anyway. MarquisCostello (talk) 08:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a glance Pericles. Regards, MarquisCostello (talk) 12:53, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

My plan for Economic history of China
Sorry I have been negligent in adding citations. My stocks were tanking and I was in distress for several days. My plan is to add citations after I finish the article. Anyways, my plan is this. First, I want to pack as much info as I can in. Then, you and others can help me pick the relevant points. The excess info will be transferred to articles such as Economic history of pre-Qin China, Economic history of Absolutist China, Economic history of post-Tang China, etc... Then what is left will be retained as the main article. Anyways, I am still a bit distressed/I hope you can help me a bit, sorry for incoveniencing you. As you can see I am writing overview sections for each dynasty and adding in details as I go. Once the article is finished the overview sections will be part of the article and the details will go in a seperate article. Teeninvestor (talk) 01:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I am very sorry, please accept my apologies.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Ya I am finished all the Pre-Song eras. As I said, when all the info is filled in we will pick up important points & keep'em while removing excess content to extra articles, which will be replaced by a sentence or too. By the way, there are many articles who exceed 100KB, including Ming and 2007 in Iraq. Teeninvestor (talk) 20:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Reign of Kaiyuan and Reign of Zhenkuan(Tang)
Perhaps we should work on these after we are done economics article. I was surprised there were no english versions of these two articles.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Very good articles
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/History/31218600.html This is the best ever article I have read on internet, which explain the fatal weakness with Ming military force. Arilang   talk  15:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Article explained Zhu was a muslim. http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/History/31218545.html Arilang   talk  16:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Article explains why Ming went bankrupted http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/History/31218940.html Arilang   talk  16:20, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Stupid Comments at talk:Tang Dynasty
I am sorry that I have to break the news to you this way, but it appears that the recent stupidity that has taken place at that talk page may be the work of sockpuppets. I have reported the matter at User_talk:Ryulong and have identified the user I believe was behind it. When I have time, I will be looking up the suspect user's name to see if that user has a sockpuppet history as I seem to recall seeing the suspect user's name in a sockpuppetry report (as an observer on the sidelines of course). Lobbyist911 (talk) 11:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Tibet during the Ming Dynasty
LaGrandefr is back. Bertport (talk) 16:58, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow, I'm back! (╰_╯)#  --LaGrandefr (talk) 21:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

"Needham"?
This edit is puzzling. You don't identify the book's title or date of publication, nor any more about the author than a surname. Via Google Books I find this, mentioning Cavalieri on pages 141 and 142&mdash;nothing on page 143 and nothing to indicate that this is "volume 3". Also this, on page 59. Can you make this more specific? Michael Hardy (talk) 23:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I never thought I would be approached about an edit from April 2007, but I stand corrected! Lol. I have added the full source name.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 09:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Science and technology of the Han Dynasty
Shubinator (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Awesome.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 22:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

How do you change the name of an article
Ya, see title.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

new article
Please help to build up an article I have just create2009 Auction of Old Summer Palace bronze heads
 * I cleaned it up a bit. I'm busy with Han Dynasty articles right now, though.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 08:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your invitation again. Please check Talk:Society and culture of the Han Dynasty Arilang   talk  23:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If only we had someone like you to write about old Vietnamese history....At least Dai Viet was part of the Han Dynasty in those days, we can get a bit of collateral improvement.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 03:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I included a great deal of info about Vietnamese history in History of the Song Dynasty, although it was striclty about diplomatic, trade, tributary, and hostile relations with Song China in the 11th century. What's funny is that I actually know a bit more about Vietnamese history than my Vietnamese friend Khoi. Hah. Perhaps my library has a treasure trove of sources on old Vietnamese history. However, after I am done with this Han Dynasty project (and helping with an Economy article for another user), I think I'm going to take a long Wiki break.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 04:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Enjoy your wiki break! Well deserved! Yeah monkey we could sure do with several thousands clones of this guy to write articles all Asian history. Dr. Blofeld      White cat 10:50, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yeah, if they had cloned me instead of Dolly (sheep), think of what we could have achieved! Lol. Cheers.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 16:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Tang Dynasty map/ Tang influence on the Caspian Sea
Hi,

I guess you were already made aware of the Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty article. At the moment, there is a bit of reverting in connection to that map on the right side, also some discussion on the article's talk page. Since you have worked so extensively on the main Tang Dynasty article, I guess you might also have a wider insight into sources relevant to the map. My main point of concern at the moment is not the map's (or its legend's) treatment in Goguryo in 649 or of what is now Yunnan. My impression - please correct me if I am wrong - is they are simply mistaken, and that this is reason enough to dismiss that map. I am more interested in the extension of the Tang's influence to the Caspian. I have been able to find sources for the Western Turks expanding to the Caspian in 630, and for them submitting to the Tang some time later, but I don't think this implies that the Western Turks controlled the Eastern Shore of the Caspian at the time they submitted to the Tang, or afterwards. Maybe you can help out? Yaan (talk) 23:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The part that is bright yellow is not Yunnan, but Western Sichuan.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

and by the way, when are you going to start your work on Economic history of China???? You promised to start your work on it a week ago but you decided not to.Teeninvestor (talk) 02:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I hope you're satisfied for now with what I just added to your sandbox. ;) That should hold you off for a while. I'll add more later. As for all this monkey business with Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty, I'll deal with that later, as I will be busy tomorrow with work, going to see a movie with friends, and have my sights focused on rewriting Government of the Han Dynasty. Full steam ahead.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 10:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks as if the discussion is gonna take place here. But why do we discuss this map and not the other one? This map contains "Mongol tribes", a serious anachronism, and for this reason alone it can never be used in an article about actual history. On the other hand, I still don't understand the other map, why it is wrong or correct, and would really like to know that. G Purevdorj (talk) 10:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Dispute about inner asia during the Tang dynasty
Inner Asia during the Tang dynasty. A map that is sourced from wikimedia commons keeps on getting removed by users with bias, for no reason. Supposedly it is "unsourced"; it is in wikimedia commons! Please check it out.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

GAN for Economy of the Han Dynasty
I've reviewed the article and left notes on the talk page. I've put the nomination on hold for seven days to allow the issues to be addressed. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, here, or on the article talk page with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Society and culture of the Han Dynasty
Shubinator (talk) 20:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, awesome.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 21:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Vietnamese history
I included a great deal of info about Vietnamese history in History of the Song Dynasty, although it was striclty about diplomatic, trade, tributary, and hostile relations with Song China in the 11th century. What's funny is that I actually know a bit more about Vietnamese history than my Vietnamese friend Khoi. Hah. Perhaps my library has a treasure trove of sources on old Vietnamese history. However, after I am done with this Han Dynasty project (and helping with an economy-related article for another user), I think I'm going to take a long Wiki break.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 04:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, many Vietnamese know nothing of Vietnamese history. Most of them don't know who Gia Long, [[Quang Trung, Le Loi, Ngo Dinh Diem, Phan Dinh Phung are.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 00:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Another good article
What do you think of the comparison between 王莽 and Hu Jintao/Wen Jiabao ? I think this article(http://news.boxun.com/forum/200903/boxun2009a/42405.shtml) says a lot about Chinese politic.


 * 1) It is very interesting that you are also  into Vietnamese history, please have a look at the Sino-Vietnam War, I add a bit of Additional sources there. Many Chinese netizens know the true reasons of the war, that is, Deng Xiaoping used the war to signal to the USA that China will be friends of USA in the unlikely event of USA going to war with then USSR.
 * 2) According to many Chinese historians, those Vietnameses, Cambodians and Thai people all share  a common ancestor Descendants of Yan & Yellow Emperors  Arilang   talk  02:07, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Yet another good article

 * Yet another good article:华夏民族的终极亮剑——武悼天王冉闵 Arilang   talk  04:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Wow!
People like you are the reason people like me join Wikipedia. I actually found your request for assistance with History of the Han Dynasty while looking for someone with experience to improve anti-Qing sentiment (which in turn I found through articles needing copyediting :-P). Maybe you could take a look at it some time.

I'm going to take a closer look at the Han article later but wanted to let you know I'm always available for copyediting. Once again, great work. Natural Cut (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll focus on those articles instead. The anti-Qing article isn't in a terrible state, but the reason I didn't touch it was that I wasn't sure on things like the distinction between anti-Qing and anti-Manchuism, what "the Qing" refers to (a dynasty, a people, a set of practices) and the significance of the Chinese phrase in the intro paragraph. I'm sure you'll do a fantastic job if you get around to it. Cheers. Natural Cut (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

History of the Han Dynasty
Wonderful article, but needs a bit of cutting down. It's on hold for now, but I am truly amazed you find the time to make these terrific articles. Let me know what you think about my proposed changes.Zeus1234 (talk) 06:59, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi PoA. Society and culture of the Han Dynasty is fantastic work, even more so than the other parts of your Han series. I'll try to say a few well-deserved words, but I'm afraid I don't have time to delve into this right now, because my parents are coming to visit in two days, and I have to finish some very urgent work on my dissertation before they arrive. Ok I'll get started right now, but I will have to be brief. Congatulations again! Madalibi (talk) 02:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok done! Now I really have to get back to work. I'll be on another long wiki break beginning this week-end, but will look forward to reading your improved version of Government of the Han Dynasty when I return! Madalibi (talk) 03:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, I see. So I'm the only one making a decision! Go ahead with the copy-editing. Reducing the size of the article will help to make it a featured article in the future. As for my new e-mail, Willam sent me only one answer and didn't reply any further. I guess everyone is concerned that I'm a hacker using a fake new e-mail. I did mention my meerkat joke (you know, with the stuffing) to you in the first message I wrote from that address, and a few more things that other members can confirm are coming from me. It's fine to be prudent. I actually opened a new e-mail because I thought my original address was either unsecure or under attack. I also changed all my passwords just in case. I have to go eat lunch, but I'll try to write again this afternoon. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 04:52, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that you're online. Good, because I'm about to sign off for the day. I may only be able to pass the article late next week, because I'm going to pick up my parents in HK tomorrow, and I have to finish a few dissertation-related things before I leave. But I'll be back on Thursday. I also doubt I'll be able to check my e-mail, but rest assured: I'm in full control of my two addresses (those that start with "fa" and "ma"). It seems that things are taking a good turn, though, since the parasitic site seems to be down, and we know the perpetrator's identity and address. You can of course delete all the details from my messages that are unrelated to Wikipedia. Have fun editing! Madalibi (talk) 07:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi again! I'm back from HK with my parents, and I will try to pass the article this week-end (I don't even know how to do it, so if you can give me a clue...). I also read dozens of messages about GZ and his lost site. Just as I was done, I checked my spam folder and pressed "delete all" just as I saw a message by you addressed to me (a few messages by others also ended up in the folder, but they were part of the general discussion, so it doesn't really matter if they were deleted). Sorry about that! Anyway, could you just send the message again? Thanks. Hope all is well! Madalibi (talk) 08:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, it's done! And now I'm off for another long Wiki break. Take care, Madalibi (talk) 17:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll pass the article a bit later today, because I think that there's been improvement. I do however think that the people at FA will probably want you to shorten it even more though, so there may be hard choices up ahead. Good work!Zeus1234 (talk) 02:16, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Society and culture of the Han Dynasty
The article is possibly misleading because it only mentions silk cloths. I'm wondering whether all Hans wore silk all the time.

Another issue are the non-official traditions such as Mozi's. Perhaps you could better highlight what other traditions there were aside from Legalism and Confucianism and better explain why they didn't suit the court. Wandalstouring (talk) 11:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I had to refresh my memory. There were the Hundred Schools of Thought followed by the persecution during the Quin era and a relaxiation during the Han era. However, the Han first took over Legalism and later modified it with Confucianism (with Taoism in private affairs). What happened to the other schools of thought, at least the major ones, and how they eventually influenced what is blatantly labeled Confucianism and Legalism would help the reader to better understand the intellectual background of that time.
 * I do have access to all the mentioned books within this week and can help you on this aspect. Wandalstouring (talk) 12:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Salt Monopoly?
Hi Pericles --

I posted a question on Song Dynasty talk page suggesting that this is a neglected but important topic which needs to be coordinated through a number of articles. It would be great to get your input. ch (talk) 16:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the quick reply, but if it's ok with you maybe I'll go ahead on the basis of Cecilia Lee-fang Chien, Salt and State: An Annotated Translation of the Songshi Salt Monopoly Treatise (Ann Arbor: Center for Chinese Studies the University of Michigan,  2004. Michigan Monographs in Chinese Studies, V. 99). The Introduction is a useful summary of the field. Also, K'uan Huan, tr. by Esson Gale, Discourses on Salt and Iron: A Debate on State Control of Commerce and Industry in Ancient China, Chapters I-Xix (Leyden: E. J. Brill Ltd.,  1931) is old but solid.


 * If length of the article is a concern, I might suggest some judicious pruning. ch (talk) 17:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Inner Asia during the Tang dynasty
A tag team of Tenmei, G Puveroj, and GenuineMongol are disrupting the article and attempting to delete it. Please check edit history for details.Teeninvestor (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Should I report their acitivity since they tried to disrupt the article again; they asked for scanned text and translations for every citation. That is a very biased obstructionism.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The above three have again tried to delete my material/circumvent 3RR rule by reverting without explanation. Can you please show up at the talk page and explain to them why they are wrong in doing so.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The Tang dynasty map shows inner mongolia under Ughyur control. Strange considering Tang had prefectures such as Dingxiang and others which I believe was in Inner Mongolia.Teeninvestor (talk) 13:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Mediation

 * I plan to withdraw from WP:3RR because it is ineffective and no uninvolved editor has shown the willingness and temerity in wading into this escalating dispute.


 * Instead, the dispute resolution processes of formal mediation are necessary. If that fails, the resort to arbitration may prove helpful.


 * We appear to confront a small scale replica of what has occurred in other, wider disputes. In my view, the the words and actions of what Teeninvestor wrongly characterizes as a "tag team" have been consistently informed by a four-prong examination at each and every point of this escalating drama:
 * 1. What is the quality of the sources used by both sides in the dispute?
 * 2. What is the consensus of scholars in the field; and does the source reflect that consensus?
 * 3. Are the sources actually supporting the assertions for which they are cited?
 * 4. Are unsourced assertions being used?
 * As others will know better than me, these four points are, unsurprisingly, at the center of most protracted disputes and are all violations of our core content policies, e.g., verifiability, no original research and neutrality.


 * As I see it, your participation has not been reliably focused on aspects of Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty which would lead to a stable, credible article.


 * What seems to be missing is a method by which a determination on whether content policies are being followed can be made authoritatively. Mediation may help resolve the issues which mark this minor article as a battlefield. --Tenmei (talk) 15:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

This guy is out of control, man. That's all i have to say.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

diff

 * Tenmei, you have some good things to say, like your assertion that using no maps is better than using a poor-quality map. However, it seems now that you are simply hounding Teeninvestor for no good reason because you suspect he is misleading everyone and deliberately misrepresenting his sources. Look, if you were serious about this at all, you would have brought counter sources to argue against Li Bo and Zheng Yin days ago; instead you keep repeating the same things over and over, like a cliche parrot on a pirate shoulder. Please, don't leave messages on my talk page unless you have something to say about a scholarly source you have consulted which reveals something relevant to this discussion.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 15:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The mediation process is explained at WP:Mediation. I will initiate the process at Requests for mediation.  As you may know, your participation is voluntary; and in fact, you can thwart the process by refusing to agree to mediation or by withdrawing at any point afterwards.  In view of the message above, I will not include your name in this reasonable next step. --Tenmei (talk) 15:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Economic history of China update
All the pre-modern sections are finished except Han and Song which I hoped you could do and Qing which I hoped Madalibi would do.Teeninvestor (talk) 23:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Tenmei is out of control
He filed for Arbcom!!!. This guy is out of control.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * See Requests for arbitration
 * Cheers, John Vandenberg (chat) 10:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

He wants you to comment there.Teeninvestor (talk) 11:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Another good article
http://news.boxun.com/news/gb/misc/2009/03/200903220933.shtml is another good article for your reference. Arilang   talk  02:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Yet another good article
http://news.boxun.com/news/gb/pubvp/2009/03/200903231328.shtml Please check this link. Arilang   talk  07:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Yet another another good article
Please check it out:http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=12154 article by professor Wang Gungwu. I think this article is too shallow, I think you can write a better article than him, seriously. Please let me know what you think. Arilang   talk  13:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Economic history of China- Ready to move into wikipedia???
I was hoping that you could do Han and Song sections, and maybe even Qing section if Madalibi is unavailable. This, along with citing sources(and finding additional info and citing it, as I hoped you could do), will probably make the article ready. Can you start work on it???? I think a week of good, hard citing plus writing could make this ready very quickly(which is what I want).Teeninvestor (talk) 14:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I meant if you had additional info (on other dynasties) it would be good for you to insert it. You know how wikipedia is; more citations is always better. I'm going to start citing my sources; if by the time I finish doing so Han and Song and Qing are not yet finished I may be able to lend a hand.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:01, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Minor Point on Needham Science and Civilisation in China
Hi P of A --

Minor point: on a number of pages, Needham's volumes are mistakenly cited as "Civilization," which is the American spelling, and the publisher as "Caves Books," which is the unauthorized (ok, pirated) version, rather than the correct "Cambridge: Cambridge University Press." As you and other readers of this page go around, you might correct this if it occurs to you. I've corrected some as I've run across them. ch (talk) 19:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I humbly retract the "pirated"! But the Taiwan edition is still a reprint, and the real should be cited. Again, not a major point, but hey, these articles are for the ages, and even more important, should lead readers to read these great books in their libraries and even buy them in their bookstores. You do so much great work I almost hesitate to bring up "one hair in nine oxen" criticism. ch (talk) 20:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As to whether we need to cite the particular edition used, I think preference varies according to the purpose. If, at an extreme, we're sourcing "To be or not to be," it generally wouldn't make sense to cite the First Folio of 1620 or whatever, but rather the modern edition and page number. But in this case, to show readers where they can follow up the information, the original edition is preferable, esp. since most readers couldn't get the reprint and the two are (presumably) identical. The Google Book image is the Cambridge one and adding the Taiwan info is confusing. I do remember happy hours browsing in Caves many years ago -- a quick Google search shows that it seems to still be in business, though in much nicer quarters than when I was there. ch (talk) 21:19, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Arilang1234 spreading propaganda
Arilang1234 has a hidden agenda trying to make all chinese dynasties look good, to make the CCP look bad. He also claimed Zhu Yuanzhang was a muslim just because a random internet article was spreading this rumor!

he should not be allowed to censor content and twist facts, for example in Plasma Economy, a BBC article blamed the removal of communism, and the capitalist reforms for the corruption and AIDS. however, Arilang has managed to twist the article to his own POV that the opposite is occuring, without any source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.154.159 (talk) 20:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok...??? So far I've heard two incredibly crazy things: that (1) Emperor Hongwu was a Muslim (no evidence to support this, that's like saying Barack Obama is a Muslim), and (2) somehow communism is linked to AIDS. Please, take this up with Arilang. I don't have time to deal with silly things. I'm here to do serious work, and right now, that involves the Han Dynasty (which has nothing to do with sexually-transmitted diseases or conspiracy theories about the religion of Ming emperors). Bye bye.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 20:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom
Can you just go check the links I provided to the 5000 years source and make an opinion on it? I think that would get rid of the whole ArbCom mess.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2009 (UTC) Ya, and I have to find better links...Teeninvestor (talk) 22:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

FAC noms
Hi Pericles. You may not be aware, but the FAC instructions specify that Users should not add a second FA nomination until the first has gained support and reviewers' concerns have been substantially addressed. I noticed that you added a large number of nominations at once. I've removed all but the first one added to the list (Society and culture of the Han Dynasty). You are welcome to remove this nomination from WP:FAC and put one of the others in its place, provided this one hasn't gotten any comments. If you have any questions, please let me know. Karanacs (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, he'll be able to handle it....they're all on the same topic after all.....All the best!  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 01:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've never done anything like that before (submit more than one article at once, let alone six), so I obviously never even considered the rule (and never read it beforehand, to be honest!). Fair enough.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 01:33, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you don't mind, I'll add little notes that the FACs are not transcluded. Feel free to remove them when you do list them at FAC. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine by me.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 10:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

well, your FAC has gained supports and no opposes are outstanding, so you can add another one...  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 02:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm...let's wait just a bit longer for consensus and solid review (the small technical concerns are now out of the way); then I'll put up another article as an FA candidate.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 02:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Good job on Han articles!!!
Only you, Pericles, you pulled it off once again. How do you have so much time to write all of this and pass your courses at the same time? I was going to ask you why the main Han dynasty article isn't finished, when I reached there and it was! Good job!Teeninvestor (talk) 19:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I cant believe ArbCom succeeded.
From the looks of it- surprisingly, Tenmei's ArbCom Case is actually GOING TO BE CONSIDERED. WOW. Our economic history of China update just went back by a long shot. If I had known how vextatious this guy was- See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive471#User:Tenmei.27s_abusing_AfD_and_personal_attacks, I probably should have went to mediation instead. ArbCom has a heavy hand and it usually likes to block people after the case is over..Teeninvestor (talk) 21:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom case starting; it is strange how these wikipedia admins want to get into this, considering there hasn't been a problem for months.... Anyways, would you be willing to give testimony or not?Teeninvestor (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think all you need to do is to verify that the source is what I said it is: a history book in China. You only need to go to this site "http://book.jqcq.com/product/30157.html and affirm it is correct, or find a user who will do so.Teeninvestor (talk) 22:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You obviously havent read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive471#User:Tenmei.27s_abusing_AfD_and_personal_attacks. Tenmei's pretty obstinate. Teeninvestor (talk) 23:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I find it pretty strange that ArbCom would dabble into this; 1st of all, there is no more edit warring/uncivil whatever at the article itself. 2nd of all, the links to source exist, so it is "verifiable". 3rd of all, there's no "behaviourial problems" If this arbcom case passes, I'm just going to state my argument and then not pay attention to it for a while; I doubt anything will be done(or can be done) except Tenmei demonstrating his "rhetorical skills".Teeninvestor (talk) 23:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Ming agricultural surplus
Can you provide me with a source about Ming's agricultural surplus? thank you. Sorry to bother you.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC) Do you have a chart on Ming tax revenue?Teeninvestor (talk) 21:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Literally the Chinese word "wind car" or 风车, I believe it refers too. I checked on the Chinese wikipedia and it made this claim. http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A3%8E%E8%BD%A6_(%E6%9C%BA%E6%A2%B0) Check this. I believe it says that there was a drawing in Eastern Han, of windmills, or something. Check this article:http://www.answers.com/topic/windmill.Teeninvestor (talk) 17:41, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Tenmei is more dangerous than I thought
I initially thought he was just "a bit" obstinate, but look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive456#Personal_abuse_and_disruptive_behaviour_by_Tenmei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive471#User:Tenmei.27s_abusing_AfD_and_personal_attacks Looks like I'm up against someone really really obstinate. Take care.Teeninvestor (talk) 02:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Since you seem to be on a bit of a wikibreak, would you mind if I did the Han and Song sections first, so to speak, and then you reviewed it???Teeninvestor (talk) 14:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Windmills(风车)
The exact statement was that a drawing was discovered in Han times of a machine called 风车, which may have been the windmill or not. Check this:http://www.answers.com/topic/windmill Note 风车 is the Chinese name for windmill and this may have just referred to any wind-powered device(literally meaning "Wind Car"). I think there may be some confusion here.Teeninvestor (talk) 17:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

K, I have done a little more research and here is my conclusions: Chinese in Han Era used a machine called 风车 to grind grain; however, this was also used in other areas. It does not seem to refer the gigantic Windmills that are the crux of this debate. 风车 seems to refer to only a wind powered device.

The windmills which were invented in Early Islam seemed to be different from the 风车 but since they were both wind-powered, they had the same name in Chinese.Teeninvestor (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.china.org.cn/english/NM-e/151624.htm Here is another source that makes this claim. HOwever, in my book, it seems that the 风车 refers to a machine, not a building. Also, it does not discuss whether it is vertical axis or not; 风车 literally means "wind machine" so it could refer to lots of stuff.Teeninvestor (talk) 17:55, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Han and Song sections finished! Hope you didn't mind me copy-editing several statements.Teeninvestor (talk) 19:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Han, not solo

 * In notes but not refs: Bowman,Ebrey (1974),Nelson,Zizhi Tongjian.
 * More than one cite, needs named ref:
 * Ch'ü (1972), 76;
 * Ebrey (1974), 173–174;
 * Ebrey (1999), 66;
 * Ebrey (1999), 75;
 * Hinsch (2002), 21–22;
 * I've never seen anyone use the method you used for handling the various volumes of Needham I strongly suspect that you need to fix all of those cites to make them Needham (1986a), Needham (1986b) etc.
 * Double check the edit by 75.82.211.223 (just before mine) to see if it's sneaky vandalism.
 * Sorry I have no time to proofread!!! Ling.Nut.Public (talk) 10:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I just fixed everything but the Needham citations, which I want to discuss with you further. When you say "a", "b", "c", etc., are you saying that in both the "Notes" and the "References" sections that an "a", "b", "c" should accompany the year of the publication? I don't think I've seen a citation method formatted like that before. Can you show me an example?-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 14:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject interview?
Greetings! I've been doing WikiProject Reports for the Signpost lately, and I've decided to do my next report on WikiProject China. HongQiGong suggested that you would be an excellent candidate for an interview, and judging from your Song and Han Dynasty work, I completely agree. Would you be interested in doing an interview? If so, you can just leave a note either here or on my talk page. If not, would you mind recommending someone else from the project? Thanks mate! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 12:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No time constraints, really, though I'd like to get it done by this Saturday so it can be published in the next edition of the Signpost. I'll be posting questions at this page, so I recommend watching that page. Don't worry about formatting too much, I can clean up the page before it goes to publishing. If you don't understand a question or don't want to answer it, just leave a note somewhere (here, my talk, the interview page, the interview's talk page), and I'll try to clear it up. In the past, interviewees generally answer each question with 1 to 3 paragraphs, except for IZAK who wrote essays for each question! Thanks for your time, mate! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 14:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Assuming all goes according to plan, the next issue should be published around 3:00 UTC April 5. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:51, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Mailer Diablo 14:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Tianchao Daguo
PoA, I would like to create a new wiki Tianchao Daguo 天朝大國, or Tianchao Daguo, which ever name is more suitable, but only use pinyin, Could you help me? Arilang   talk  16:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Tianchao Daguo is here, need your help to add contents to sections Tang/Song/Yuan/Ming/Qing. Arilang   talk  17:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Arilang1234/Sandbox/Roving ambassador for China
PoA, wouldn't it be nice if there are many Roving ambassador for China running around, in that case PRC's dream of becoming a Tianchao Daguo may just come true! Arilang   talk  14:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Article on Tibet
民族自治，当初给自己挖这么个大陷阱 this is one of the best article on Tibet that I have read. Arilang   talk  19:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Please add content
You may like this article:User:Arilang1234/Sandbox/List of offences that attract jail terms in China Arilang   talk  16:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Funny quote about vandalism
I was checking the Han dynasty article when I saw your comment to the vandal, and it was funny!Teeninvestor (talk) 00:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

New article finished
Naming Laws in the People's Republic of China please check, thanks. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 02:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

New section Anti-Korean sentiment created. Might need expansion. Have a good day. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 05:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Liaodi Pagoda
Good news! I just came back from a short trip to Hebei province, and have lots of photos which are being uploaded to the commons. I went to Zhengding, Quyang and Dingzhou, and took photos of all the pagodas in Zhengding, the Liaodi Pagoda in Dingzhou, and other temples and pagodas. I hope you enjoy them, and if you have any other photo requests, do let me know. Zeus1234 (talk) 07:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

On palace museum pictures
Hey Pericles of Athens! I am so glad that you like my photos from Palace Musuem. Right now you can see all my uploaded photos at [] and []. The collection is not finished yet since I am still working on it and uploading. Please see if there's anything useful for you there. Also thanks a lot for posting the Han pottery photo! Best, rosemania (talk) 21:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello Pericles!
Just want to congratulate you on your impending fame as I saw you in the Wikipedia Signpost today! And I'm aware user:Flamarande went back to Comparison between Roman and Han Empires and unleashed a storm in a tea cup, which has now been dealt with(isn't the first time, he almost deleted the whole thing when he started). By the way, are you going to participate in the RfAr Case? Even if you're not, check the amount of diffs I've collected on this guy. Teeninvestor (talk) 20:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Tang_Dynasty/Evidence Would you mind making a statement here? Also check the diffs I have presented on Tenmei. Oh man does he have lots of drama. Even a 4 line statement would be fine.Teeninvestor (talk) 23:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I have every confidence I will win this debate. All I need is you to make a small statement on the ArbCom, confirming what I have said. Another editor Nick=D, has already made a damning statement against Tenmei. Strength in consensus!Teeninvestor (talk) 11:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

2 more users have testified. Perhaps you could too as well once you're done with sourcing problems/?????Teeninvestor (talk) 19:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Classical Chinese grammar
Created new article. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 06:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If you have a spare time someday
Hello, PericlesofAthens. Congratulations for being more famous :-) I read your interview and you mentioned about your FA article, Choe Bu, Korean traveler and various excellent achievement for Chinese history and art stuffs. If you feel bored about Chinese history, would you consider to create an article about Koryo celadon when you have a spare time? The topic is very important to the Korea project, but my limited knowledge of art history, and English, I've been searching for editors who can do that. I saw you uploaded Koryo ware images taken from Washington. This request is just casual with my hopeful thinking for future. Thanks.--Caspian blue 07:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the consideration. If you see this short article, Dancheong, that entry level is my limitation so far on art subjects.(I'm not good at paraphrasing sources written in English) But if I create a stub of Koryo celadon and add basic frames to with English book sources just like the example, you can expand it with your expertise. What do you think about my suggestion? --Caspian blue 05:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Pic
I just added a Song era pic of a revolving Buddhist scripture ark to an article that you might be able to use or to just look at. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The ark pic is a lot easier on the eyes than the synagogue pic. I wouldn't object if you switched the two out. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. The original drawing comes from Li Jie's Yingzao Fashi. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Junmin Shenfenzheng
You can kinda guess. I've had plenty of free time lately to write, write, write. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 14:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

3O on Comparison between Roman and Han Empires
Perhaps you can have a third opinion on this article, provide some suggestions? User:Flamarande is raising what I like to call " a storm in a tea cup". I feel perhaps a quick 3O could halt his pretensions. Also, I'm truly truly truly truly truly sorry, but you know what I'm going to say next; When's that ArbCom statement coming?Teeninvestor (talk) 20:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
–Drilnoth (T • C) 02:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
Rory (talk) 02:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Nine exterminations
Here's another one. Have fun. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 14:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Han emporers
I didn't want to say this at the FA nom, since it's not an objection, but I'm having trouble keeping up with who the emperors were in the Han Dynasty and when they reigned. I think a timeline would be useful to the reader, made from List of Emperors of the Han Dynasty, looking vaguely like the one at Twentieth dynasty of Egypt. If I were to create one, what article or articles would it go in? Thanks, – Quadell (talk) 15:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I was looking at a book on Chinese history, and noticed that it said that in the Han period many peasants were impoverished and that up to two million were forcibly transferred to settle the frontier provinces. Shouldn't this be given a mention, if true?  Xan  dar  01:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Mongoloid cuticle
Something different for a change. More biology and less China (but still China). --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 04:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You wanna know where I got that image from? What would you think if I told you that I took that photo, of myself? Hehehe. :D --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 04:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's good to hear. Once Han Dynasty is made FA, what are your plans? Any more great articles to write? --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 04:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, just make sure your hard work doesn't all go to waste, and ensure you get those shiny award things you can put on your userpage. Yes, I agree that writing about an entire dynasty can be tiring. Especially when the trunk of it is all by one person. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 05:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
&mdash; La Pianista  ♫ ♪ 05:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Han copyedit
I am sorry that I did not respond sooner; I unfortunately was busy with other activities which discouraged me from taking on any large Wikipedia project. However, I have now begun my own copyedits to the article. Overall, it is well-written (I must mention, also, that it is EXTREMELY well-researched, and incredible job really) and I am mostly making tweaks for sentence flow and styling (eliminating passive voice where appropriate, etc...) Also, after reading up on Wang Mang, I found that only some historians labelled him a "usurper", so I reworded or eliminated the label in the interest of not promoting one historical view over another. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 21:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I will continue copyediting, because I am one of those strange animals who enjoy it. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 21:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I have copyedited the sections requested, and another editor seems to be doing the same. This thing should pass soon, I should think, or at least hope. If that article is not going to be FA quality, I don't know what can be! I liked your labeling of the GOCE people as a "team of copyeditors", soon we can be labelled as a conglomerate of super grammar evil! Muhahaha! Cheers! Scapler (talk) 00:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Han question
I have a question on a fact in the article. These sentences: "To placate his prominent commanders from the war with Chu, Emperor Gaozu enfeoffed some of them as kings. By 157 BCE, the Han court had replaced all of these kings with royal Liu family members, since their loyalty to the throne was questioned." confuse me, as the structure leaves room for ambiguity. Was the loyalty of the commanders or the Liu family members questioned? Cheers! Scapler (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for addressing the issue. Also, I am sorry if I unwittingly inserted a factual inaccuracy while copyediting; it was purely accidental, I assure you. Keep checking my work to make sure that I do not jumble something up again! I feel I should reiterate again, you have done incredible work with that article, I saw your notes and all your research, and it is probably the best researched article I have ever seen. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 01:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Question about traditional and simplified characters
Hi PoA, I raised a question at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language). I don't know how well that page is watched, so if you have a chance would you be able to take a look? Thanks, r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 01:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

On a lighter note...
Regarding the "humour" (hehehe) section of your userpage, I think one of the links should be Talk:New_Chronology_(Fomenko)/Archive_1 (archived talk page). Was reading through it all, quite funny. :D:D:D Have lots of fun! :P --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 13:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I hope you don't mind me stealing your HTML syntax :P I'm gunna completely rewrite my userpage, and yours looks good (I'll just change the font and colours, no one will notice :D:D:D), test page is at User:Benlisquare/UserpageRewrite. If you feel kind enough, you could also give me a few tips in prettifying my ugly, ugly page. Wishing you happiness, --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 14:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no idea whether the Calibri font can be viewed on all browsers and computers, and no idea what it appears as if it doesn't. How can I check? --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 15:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It comes up as Arial on a Win2000 PC. :( --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 00:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Han Dynasty clarification of date requested
As I continue to read through your excellent article, I've come across something that was unclear: In the "Science, technology, and engineering" section under the heading "Writing materials", I found this sentence:  "The oldest surviving piece of paper with writing on it was found in the ruins of a Han watchtower in Inner Mongolia dated 110 CE." Is the date of 110 actually in the text of the paper, or was it subsequently found to date from about 110 by some scientific dating method? --Thomprod (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Controversy at T:TDYK
I would appreciate it if you put your thoughts in at T:TDYK with regard to some editors' unilateral attempt to effectively read in a modification to WP:RS without consensus or discussion, which I find offensive and at least borderline racist. Obviously, I may be taking it too personally, so some thoughts on your (and to the extent that you can think of, other interested parties') part would be appreciated. --Nlu (talk) 02:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Zhonghua Zihai
Yeh. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 14:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi!
Hi PoA! Just dropping by to say I'm back, but I still won't have time to do any substantial editing. I just took a month off, not only the Wiki but also everything else, so I need to get back to work. I see there's been a lot of action since my last visit, including your nomination of Han Dynasty for FA. I can't really imagine how you can do school work at the same time as you write all these articles. Actually I doubt you're a real college student. You must be an old hermit living on a mountain with a subscription to JSTOR, a loan agreement with the Library of Congress, and a guitar. Lol. Yeah, that must be it. Ok, see you around! Madalibi (talk) 07:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

FT
After the FA process is through, perhaps you should consider a Featured Topic on the Han Dynasty, including all the other articles that you have made on the subject. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 01:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

中国经济通史
I noticed this source in Song dynasty and I've been trying to get it through an ebook form(but as you know, popups in Chinese websites are 50X more annoying even with antivirus...), so after deleting a few Trojans, I've come to ask you if you know an ebook site to download this, cause it doesn't seem to be in the library area I live.Teeninvestor (talk) 16:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Han Dynasty ‎
I have split the long paragraphs to make the lead more readable; all it needs now is a short paragraph about society and culture. Pergamino (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

FAC
Main concerns met. Congrats. ;-) Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Request for Mediation
A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Requests for mediation/Li Yong (Tang Dynasty), and indicate whether you agree or disagree to mediation. If you are unfamiliar with mediation on Wikipedia, please refer to Mediation. Please note there is a seven-day time limit on all parties responding to the request with their agreement or disagreement to mediation. Thanks, Nlu (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC) --Nlu (talk) 16:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

WOW! These deletionistas couldn't find anything to delete, so now they attack the sources without contributing anything. if you need my help in this, I'll gladly provide a comment.Teeninvestor (talk) 19:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)