User talk:Perseus71/Archives/2008/December

Walter Oesau
Thanks for asking me about the article. A few first hand comments: The lead section is too short. I know that he had children, since I went to school with his grand son, so there must be a personal life behind the man. He was reluctant to trade his Bf 109E for a Bf 109F when the aircraft was made available. The position of the pictures causes the article to break up in unnatural places. The picture of the Bf 109F is actually a Mölders machine. Either find a different picture or remove it. He was an excellent marksman with a rifle and liked to ride his motorcycle freehanded. Pictures of him doing that are in a JG 2 book. The Steinhoff citation about him being the toughest… could be put in a citation box, I think that would look nice. In some place the punctuation is a bit awkward (blanks before commas, no blanks between sentences). All German terms like Experten should be capitalized. MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:05, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

GA nomination for Jagdgeschwader 1 (World War II)
Hello. I've reviewed the article Jagdgeschwader 1 (World War II) for its nomination for Good Article status. I have some major concerns about referencing and the quantity of fair-use images, along with others concerns, so I am placing the article on hold for seven days. My complete review may be found here. If you have any questions about the review or individual issues I have raised, please note them on the review page (which is on my watchlist) and I will answer them there. When you have addressed the issues I have mentioned, I will be happy to reevaluate the nomination. Thanks, and good editing. — Bellhalla (talk) 15:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:III. JG1.png)
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Orphaned non-free media (Image:I. JG 1 1943.png)
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Orphaned non-free media (Image:4.JG 1 old.png)
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Orphaned non-free media (Image:4.JG 1 new.png)
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JG 1 (WWII)
Thanks for the message. You have made astonishing progress since I last looked: very well done! This looks pretty close to A-Class now and FA shouldn't be too difficult. For FA, probably the best thing is to get some specialists involved. I've some ideas who might be suitable. It probably needs the refs looking at again; a quick copy edit to polish it for flow; and someone to look at the images. If this is okay with you, I'll leave some messages on talk pages asking for input. What do you think? -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 20:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * PS: You still need to de-link the ranks in the "Commanding officers" section. You should change all "&" to "and" ("&" is only used for company names: Cross & Blackwell etc). -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 20:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the kudos. Go ahead and involve the experts. But note that, per your suggestion, after I left messages with peer review request on all three related forums (MILHIST, MILHIST GERMAN and World WAR II), nobody responded. Probably you have a bigger pull! The only thing I want is to see this article get an A. That's one less article to be improved. I will change the & to and as well as de-link the ranks (Next 2 hrs ?). After that I will stop polishing it and its yours. If you need any subject matter or need to expand a specific point, then let me know. I will be moving on to next article, biography of Walter Oesau. Thanks once again. perseus71 (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, I never promised to take this through A-Class though I will happily continue to help with general input. I just don't have time to become the primary contributor on an article that weay outside my specialities and for which I have absolutely no sources. What I am saying is that I will happily provide support, advice and encouragement but cannot take on the bulk of the work myself. I apologise if there has been a misunderstanding about this. -- R OGER D AVIES   talk 07:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Roger, I was & still am aware that you did not promise to take the article through A Class. All I need to know what exactly I need to do other than requesting A-Class Review (like you do for B-Class). Apologies if I gave wrong imression. I appreciate the time you spend. Perseus71 (talk) 13:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No need to apologise :)) I have incidentally nothing but admiration for the work you have done on this so far. ACR is extremely easy to set it up. Best is to wait until the others think it's ready and then follow the instructions here. If you let me know just before you do it, I'll keep an eye for any technical snags and, in the unlikely event that there are any, I'll them out. -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 13:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay. Will you be available to take the article through A-Class? I don't have time myself and I don't know the subject well enough. I'll try to get the refs checked over and a quick CE done in the next couple of days. -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 13:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Persues71! In answer to your question, yes, the general rule on headings is that we only capitalize the initial word and not the rest. However, there is an exception when it comes to proper names – these are always capitalized. If we had a section on, say, Roger Davies, then it would be properly capitalized as Roger Davies, not Roger davies. I recapitalized those words I saw as proper names. Now, the "Headquarters Flight" could go either way, depending solely on editor preference; I chose to treat it as a proper name.


 * As I mentioned on Roger's talk page, I'm in the late stages of rewriting the Fighter aircraft article for WP 0.7. When I'm done with that, I'll try to give you a hand with JG 1. Cheers, Askari Mark (Talk) 02:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Askari Mark, Thanks for the offer. Could you at least let me know if the article is in good enough shape to request A-Class review ? Thanks Perseus71 (talk) 13:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I think going for A-class right now is a little premature. As Marcusmax notes below, it’s getting close to GA, and A-class is a little more demanding. There are several things I know the reviewers will hit on:


 * 1) The writing needs to be tightened up and made more fluid.  There are several formulations that are used repetitively, and the prose needs more polish.
 * 2) MOS:IMAGE recommends not placing left-aligned images directly below subsection-level (=== or greater) headings; this is because some browsers mistakenly take the wiki markup for control coding.  This is a problem in several places in JG 1.
 * 3) MOS:IMAGE also discourages “sandwiching” text between two images facing each other.  This happens repeatedly with the images where there are emblem images.  You might experiment with finding a different, but still attractive, style of arrangement.
 * 4) This article uses a lot of non-English words – much of it repetitively (a lot of which I removed).  However, the MILHIST style guides don’t answer some questions I have on balancing German and English terms – and I’ve not worked with this issue before.  I personally am comfortable with German ranks and unit names and designations, but I’m not sure to what degree German or English should be emphasized here.  The article’s title uses the German name (which I think is proper), which would normally (outside WP) lead me to use German terms and ranks, italicized, with English translations at their first usage.  The German MILHIST task force’s naming conventions, however, imply that it may be the other way around.  This issue needs clarification (and is one of the things I don’t have time to do right now).

Also, although probably not required, I’ve noticed that USAF squadron articles have a list of bases operated from and the period of the their stay there. Something like that would be useful here as a summary table of the movements of JG 1’s units.

Hope this helps. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Re: "Do you think, it would be appropriate to have italic German word and English equivalent in bracket, at first use and just German word later on ? Where can I look for clear direction on this issue ?" Ah, but this is the issue I don't currently have time to research. Have you asked Roger or Kirill? Askari Mark (Talk) 01:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I’m flattered you asked me, to be sure. I’ll have a look around and let you know who may be suitable to ask. I know a thing or two about this unit, and I will contact another editor I know (who I am sure, as a German) who could help out. May I say that you have done a great job. Off the top of my head, I think the list of notable pilots killed (in the “Notable successes and losses” section) would be better off in a table. I would also say that sections, from what I understand, need to be at least one paragraph long, so the “Missing and killed in action” list, I think, may need putting into a table, or its information merging into the notable losses section. The photographs are great. But I would move all the emblem pictures to one side or the other, and I think that staffel emblems is going a tad far IMHO. I think Gruppen emblems are enough.
 * Just some thoughts, I’ll get asking and see were you can go from here. Dapi89 (talk) 20:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, I have made some corrections to II. Gruppe's deployment. Dapi89 (talk) 21:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking good Perseus. There are some things worth sorting out in the intro, however. For example: Initially it was formed in eastern Prussia but got re-designated Re-designated from what?
 * Later JG 1 was reformed on the western front. What happened in the meantime? The goal on western front was to protect German borders and shipping lanes in north sea. During initial years of war till 1942, JG 1 operated primarily over the Western Front and northern occupied Europe, spending most of the war defending the airspace over the Netherlands, Denmark and the north-west part of Germany, and protecting North Sea shipping lanes.
 * The first sentence isn't needed because the role of the unit is specified in the next. Nothing major, but the intro sets up the rest of the article. Regards Minorhistorian (talk) 23:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Glad to be able to help. I don't have much information on the unit, so I'll leave that to the experts! The article is in good hands. Cheers! Minorhistorian (talk) 10:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi. The losses are not total losses for the unit overall on 1 Jan'. The losses in the table are losses directly caused by Operation Bodenplatte. I'll make this clear in the article. Dapi89 (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, I'm glad to be able to help. In the "Bodenplatte" section you describe combat between JG 1 and Polish Spitfires. I'm sure that I have cross references to these in books on 2 TAF by Shores and Thomas; frustratingly I have lent these books out to a friend who is an aviation historian, so at the moment I don't have direct access to the information. Duh-oh! I've revised the introductory paragraphs because much of the information on JG 1's formation and disbandment is too descriptive and is covered in the main body. Cheers Minorhistorian (talk) 21:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem on going for a GA whenever you want. Nor am I worried if you want to revert the layout of unit badges; that was done to see how the article might look - not strictly to Wiki guidelines, I know. If other editors don't like it, or it doesn't work in other layouts It doesn't bother me should a reversion be made. Cheers! Minorhistorian (talk) 01:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I will try! I think I will do it on Sat' as I am busy at the mo. But I will defo read it and leave feedback on the official page. Can't wait to read it. It looks nice and tidy! Bravo! Dapi89 (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello. You're putting alot of effort into this, good job! IMHO I think listing all casualties is going to massive and complicated. I think that listing total casualties for notable actions is as far as we should go. For example, the table for 1/1/45 losses. Another one might be the 15/9/40 the BoB day, if you follow. On the otherhand, you might want to list losses in statistics format, rather than a table of individuals. Dapi89 (talk) 20:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:JG 1 Old Emblem.png)
Thanks for uploading Image:JG 1 Old Emblem.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:34, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

re: Peer Review of Walter Oesau
Hi. Admittedly, I haven't had an extensive look at the prose of the above, but the definition of "Broad in its coverage" for GA-3 means that the article gives quite a detailed look on the subject. As this is GA and not FA, it doesn't need to be perfect and have every little detail, but it does need to have a substantial coverage. Having said that, if personal information is lacking on Oesau in sources and what is in the article already is the most you can find on this particular area, then don't worry about it; if information on a particular area is lacking, but there is still a fair bit incorporated within the text covering all major facets, then it won't be failed. Hope this helps! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 22:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I left some more comments on the review page MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure I will add the Wehrmachtbericht section either later tonight or tomorrow morning including citations.MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it should be okay. However, since his nickname is mentioned several times in the article, it would be worth clarifying how or why he got it. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 00:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Damn. Perhaps you could ask MisterBee1966 about it? He appears to be highly knowledgable on the German flying aces of the Second World War and recipients of the Knight's Cross, so he might have some idea. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

As requested I added the section on the Wehrmachtbericht. The translation is of my own pen. Due note that I replicated the use of Umlaute as it appeared in the original Wehrmachtbericht. That is why you'll find him spelled as Ösau once.

Merry Christmas MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * One more thing, I did not misspell Ludwig Franzisket name, The Wehrmachtbericht did, so I replicated the spelling error.

MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:46, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

re: A Class Review of Jagdgeschwader 1 (World War II)
My comment is just that, not a vote. I presume you've tried to look for a corresponding article on de wiki and didn't find one? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

BundesArchiv Images from Commons
Unfortunately not much I can do on recommendations. I basically scanned through them one by one and if something fit into what I'm interested in I added it to the respective article. So far I have not come across pictures of Oesau in commons. Good luck with your next article. MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

RE:Request for a Copyedit for FAC Review
✅. That's a great article, will be supporting its promotion.-- Patton 123  15:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Citation help
Sorry but I don't have the book you mentioned. You will find a list of books I own here User:MisterBee1966/Library (not fully complete yet). If you find something that can be of use please let me know MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

JG 1 Knight's Cross recipients
Sorry but I had to revert your changes to the Knight's Cross section. The numbers in column Oak Leaves reflect the sequential number assigned to the Oak Leaves. It has nothing to do with aerial victories. MisterBee1966 (talk) 23:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy 2009
Have a great New Year and an even better 2009. Cheers from New Zealand, regards Minorhistorian (talk) 01:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)