User talk:Peter I. Vardy/Archive 11

DYK for St Oswald's Church, Warton
 — Rlevse • Talk  • 12:03, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for St Saviour's Church, Ringley
 — Rlevse • Talk  • 12:02, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations
Congrats on the promotion of Norton Priory to FA. I had lost track of it, but I'm pleased to see that it passed further close scrutiny and won laurels. I always enjoy reading your articles, and I look forward to the next one. Finetooth (talk) 16:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Wonderful news
Congratulations on getting the FA for Norton Priory - it's well deserved! Let me know next time there's anything else I can help with. Best wishes Soph (talk) 19:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Cote Baptist Church
 — Rlevse • Talk  • 12:03, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Walpole Old Chapel
 — Rlevse • Talk  • 12:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Grade I listed buildings in Runcorn
Hey. Just letting you know I moved this from GT to FT. I think I fix it in any place where it was incorrect. First one I've promoted from one to another, so it took a bit of time to know exactly what to fix. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 20:02, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for that (I noticed it just before I received your message). Very grateful for the trouble you have taken.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 20:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Salem Chapel, East Budleigh
The DYK project (nominate) 12:03, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Eaton Hall, Cheshire
The article Eaton Hall, Cheshire you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Eaton Hall, Cheshire for eventual comments about the article. Well done! –– Jezhotwells (talk) 16:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your review, which is much appreciated. I am normally an avid user of infoboxes, but in this case I had a problem — see my comment on the article's talk page.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Coanwood Friends Meeting House
 — Rlevse • Talk  • 18:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for St Benet's Chapel, Netherton
 — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 12:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Church question
Hi Peter. I've noticed you have a heavy involvement in churches, and wondered if you could help me on a small matter. I've expanded Robert Catesby and am not far from finishing it, but I'm struggling to find a source which says specifically at which church his son, Robert, was baptised. Its a small religious matter but would be nice to resolve. I suspect its very likely the church pictured on Chastleton, but of course I can't say for certain until I see it in print. Can you help? Parrot of Doom 22:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for asking. I've no idea, and I would guess that no one knows.  ODNB usually contains this info if it exists.  I've done a bit of googling and came across nothing; I guess (once again) that if it were known that such a notorious person had been baptised in the church, the info would be plastered around everywhere.  As his father was a a recusant Catholic, I would suspect that he smuggled in a priest to do the job under a veil of secrecy (my third guess).
 * I like the article. And I like the way you give the reference for the ODNB — I think I shall steal it!  Cheers --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 08:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well the sources state that Catesby was Protestant during the time he was married, and that his son was baptised in a Protestant church - so I doubt a priest would have been involved (especially as his wife's family were also Protestant). I wondered if you had a subscription to some church service or other that let you access parish registers or something :)  People who specialise in certain types of article usually end up with a wealth of sources secreted away :) Parrot of Doom 08:58, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no. This would be one for family historians, and I'm not in that field; I usually do the architecture and a bit of church history if I can find it.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:05, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Excuse my interruption! Genealogy is my thing. I think you might find what you want by searching here. Whether it could be used as a reference I don't know.--J3Mrs (talk) 09:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That sounds more use than me! But to go back to my speculation, Robert himself may have been a Protestant, but his parents were "prominent Roman Catholics" (ODNB) and they would have been responsible for his baptism, so I think my guess is still valid.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No no, Robert Catesby's parents were Catholic, but Robert married a Protestant, and their son, also called Robert, was baptised in a Protestant church. Its that church I'm trying to find :) Parrot of Doom 09:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Everybody had to be baptised in an Anglican Church, Catholics were usually baptised twice, once in secret.--J3Mrs (talk) 10:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Bethesda Methodist Chapel, Hanley
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 18:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Listed buildings links
Peter, regarding listed building refs (specifically for Historic Chapels Trust @ FLC), I suggest using Heritage Gateway [www.heritagegateway.org.uk/ www.heritagegateway.org.uk/], which combines the best aspects of all three other methods (up-to-date, free access and non-commercial). The only difference with IoE (apart from being up-to-date) is the absence of photographs, but that's not a problem from our point of view here on WP. I set up HG refs like this...

...but you probably don't need all of that information. See for example Grade II listed buildings in Brighton and Hove: A–B for its use in a list. I haven't had a chance to read the FLC discussion closely yet, so apologies if HG has already been mentioned. Drop me a line to discuss further if you wish, although I'm at a wedding this weekend so not around much until Sunday evening. Cheers, Hassocks  5489 (tickets please!)  11:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for that. I've done the first few refs and it seems to be working (no surprise to you!).  I'd looked at this site previously, found it awkward to search and hadn't realised its advantages.  I think I'm converted.  Now playing about with Friends of Friendless Churches, some of these are in Wales, and I found searching Cadw virtually impossible.  However with help from Bencherlite and a bit of perseverance (and some lateral thinking), I'm making some progress there too.  It all keep the ageing grey cells active.  Have a good time at the wedding.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:07, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Umberslade Baptist Church
Hello! Your submission of Umberslade Baptist Church at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Nsk92 (talk) 18:04, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Dissenters' Chapel, Kensal Green
-- Cirt (talk) 12:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Lists
Hi again, thanks for your comments and advice, you're very kind, but if I ever submit it anywhere but DYK then I have a fairly steep learning curve ahead. I'm also a complete wimp when it comes to submitting anything for scrutiny, the result of a very unhealthy working environment that I put up with for years. I will look at the article and see what I can do but I have no idea how to make the dates sort, perhaps I should just make the table unsortable. As far as the refs go I have read the debate you pointed me to, and well, some of the refs I have used I simply can't find on Images of England or Heritage Gateway, yet. (Does the ref have to be so long?) This will take much longer than you might imagine. : -) --J3Mrs (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Wainsgate Baptist Church
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:02, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Todmorden Unitarian Church
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 06:03, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Blackpool
Hi, just FYI, I have started Listed buildings in Blackpool, but it's in it's early stages so don't expect too much! I've copied adapted some of your prose for the lead; just realised that I meant to mention that in my initial edit summary. Do you think I need to put it on the talkpage or something for attribution? I will definitely be back to ask you (if you don't mind!) to look at it once it's a bit further developed. I've already taken some advice from your current FLC with regard to sources! -- Beloved Freak  14:08, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's looking very promising — you're well on the way. It's good to see some of those old familiar buildings.  There's no need for any form of attribution.  So far as I know, anything published on Wikipedia is in the public domain.  And for someone's work to be used by another is supposed to be a form of flattery, I understand!--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 14:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks! I'm never quite sure about the attribution thing. Oh, by the way, I believe you have the Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes in one of your lists (the Historic Churches one?), I can't seem to find a free to use photo of it online, but hopefully will take a picture of it this week, weather permitting. Beloved  Freak  14:50, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * A photo of the shrine would be excellent — both for the list and for its article.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 14:54, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Umberslade Baptist Church
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Longworth Roman Catholic Chapel
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 06:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, Blackpool
The DYK project (nominate) 12:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Cicely Saunders
Thanks for the comments about the list. As far as Cicely Saunders is concerned.. despite her being an inspiring person I'm not really motivated towards biography etc articles & haven't updated that bit of my userpage for years.&mdash; Rod talk 12:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Historic Chapels Trust
The DYK project (nominate) 18:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Churches Conservation Trust
I think some of the entries you've added for Bristol on Churches Conservation Trust are in Somerset.&mdash; Rod talk 19:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for my ignorance. I was relying on what I thought was the "official" source.  Is it wrong?  Please feel free to correct any misdemeanour. I'm sort of looking forward to working in this area (more conserved churches) sometime in the future (if I get round to it). Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it is the best source (see refs in the Somerset section) but their definition of "Bristol Region" is very broad. If you search the same site for Somerset you get lots of the same entries. I believe the standard on wp is ceremonial counties & I think their Bristol Region may equate to Avon (county) which was abolished years ago. If you want any help with local geography let me know.&mdash; Rod talk 20:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was just spending an evening trying to do something "not very challenging"; maybe in preparation for future work.  It will matter more when I start compiling "proper" list(s) and articles.  I've also found a "Cheshire" church that's now in Greater Manchester. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 20:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I just found one that I'd duplicated one of my own entries for Somerset - should these be alphabetical by church name or by place? Is this going to end up as one of your excellent sortable lists?&mdash; Rod talk 20:32, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe Somerset is now complete - I haven't red linked those without articles - but if you want to do that I'd be very happy to help with the article creation (but it will not be for a few days).&mdash; Rod talk 20:52, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really matter at present. I've been doing some sandbox work on Friends of Friendless Churches — here (England) and here(Wales).  I want to write an article about every church; they're all notable and all interesting.  But there's quite a way to go yet.  As I said above, I was having an evening "off" and decided to work towards including all the churches preserved by the Churches Conservation Trust (not complete yet — there's loads in Wiltshire alone).  To do the list properly (and include articles on all the churches) will be a massive task.  I may get round to it; I may not.
 * Looks good - these massive lists can be a real challenge - doing all the grade I listed buildings in all 7 districts of Somerset took me about 9 months.&mdash; Rod talk 11:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * While on the subject, when I go live with the Friends, do you think I should combine the English and the Welsh, or keep them separate (within the one list)? My own inclination is to keep them separate, mainly for ease of reference.  When (if) I come to the CCT, there will have to be separate lists anyway because there are far too many for one list.  Thanks for your interest. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I would also keep the "Friends" list separate, with appropriate titles & link via see also. You could do a list for each county with similar templates & perahps combine them into one article as has been done with List of abbeys and priories in England which was all one list originally & then split into counties.&mdash; Rod talk 11:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm working on articles for the Somerset ones in the list but am unsure how to name the tower of the church of St James near Upton, Somerset. See CCT entry and IoE listing. How would you name this article?&mdash; Rod talk 12:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The way I've done it (and this is by no means set in stone) is to write the article with the title of the full name of the church. Then you can give the history of the church, if possible describe how it was, what happened to it, and what is now left.  My recent examples are Old St Matthew's Church, Lightcliffe, and St Peter's Church, Saltfleetby.  Then when it comes to the list it can be "Tower of Church ", as in my sandbox here.  It seems to work like that.  what do you think? --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK I will do it as Church of St James, Upton however there is a new church, also dedicated to St James, in the same village to replace it, which might conceivably get its own article one day.&mdash; Rod talk 15:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Suggest you call it Old Church of St James, Upton then. I've had to do this on a couple of occasions.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

All the CCT churches in Somerset now have stub articles (mostly with pics etc) except the Old Church of St Nicholas, Uphill. This has a CCT entry (see also last entry here) but doesn't appear to be a listed building (possibly because it has no roof). What infobox would you use for this one as "Infobox Historic Site" seems to be only for those included in suitable registers?&mdash; Rod talk 10:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's good work. Although how long it will take me to get round to the list remains to be seen. Re the infobox, I've tended to use "Infobox church" for most of the articles I have written.  It usually provides more information, and has a field for the grading (if relevant).  The field for "denomination" is mandatory, but as all CCT churches are (or have been) CoE/Anglican, that's not a problem.  (It colour codes it for denomination.)  "Infobox Historic Site" colour codes for Grade, but I'm not sure what happens if it's not graded.  Actually, not all historic sites in the world are graded (or any equivalent) so I guess you could still use that infobox.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 14:20, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Shrine images
Hi, I've uploaded some images of the Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, Blackpool here. Unfortunately it was a gloomy day, and there seems to be something wrong with my camera as a few of the have a light spot in the middle of them. I will try again a better day, but for now, they're better than nowt!-- Beloved Freak  15:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. I've added the image that seems to portray the carving to the best effect to the article and to the list.  If you get a better one it can always be replaced.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Listed buildings in Rivington
I don't know if you noticed but an editor has altered nearly all the references you so kindly formatted. I'm not sure what I should do, any advice would be gratefully received.--J3Mrs (talk) 08:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I had noticed, and it's on my "to do" list for today. My understanding is that including the names of the publishers is mandatory, but I've thought of a different (and tidier) way of doing that.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Dunnit. Do you think that's OK?--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That was very quick work. It seems like a good idea to me but there again I know so little :-) --J3Mrs (talk) 15:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But you learn so much every day, you're nearly an expert. If this proves to be acceptable on your list, I will use it on mine too — so much tidier.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I try, in fact I can be very trying!--J3Mrs (talk) 17:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I might use it on mine too, if it works with the FLC people! I've been watching both of your FLCs, have been thinking of commenting for a while, but a little unsure since I haven't really reviewed FLCs before. One minor thought I had about both though: the website names in the references are in italics, isn't this against WP:ITALICS (being non-print sources)? Or does that not matter for references?-- Beloved Freak  18:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) I've raised this as a query here. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 12:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Parish question
Hi, I was wondering if you could help, because you seem to know about these sorts of things! I started Church of Saint John the Evangelist, Blackpool, and I'd like to nominate it for DYK, with the hook along the lines that Blackpool had no parish church until 1821. However, I'm getting a little confused. According to the church website, and some books I've looked at, Blackpool had no parish church until the original St John's was built in 1821, and the people of Blackpool went to the church at Bispham, nearby. Does this mean that Blackpool was a parish, but without a church? Or was it not a parish at all? The list of civil parishes in Lancashire says that "former Blackpool County Borough is unparished". What does this mean? I have described it as Blackpool's parish church, is that wrong? The more I learn, the more confused I get! Apart from anything, working on this listed buildings list has taught me how little I know about architecture! Appreciate any light you can shed, and you can't, do you know how I can find out? Cheers, -- Beloved Freak  18:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It means Blackpool was part of the larger, older, Bispham parish. As the population increased parishes were created out of larger parishes. It's nothing to do with civil parishes. might help.--J3Mrs (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that link makes a lot of sense to me as I realise that Blackpool was for a long time much smaller than other settlements around it. So, am I right to think that Blackpool became a parish in 1821 when its church was built (which is what my sources seem to suggest), but that civil parishes are completely different, and were administrative areas created in 1894? (I can't believe I didn't know they were different!) Blackpool being "unparished" - that would relate to the civil parishes created in 1894/1974? I'm still a bit confused, but less so than before, so thanks!-- Beloved Freak  20:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, no... reading the bits about Blackpool on that site are just making it worse. Sorry if I'm being completely stupid, but would each new church built in the 19th century have formed a parish of its own?-- Beloved Freak  20:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably, it's usually why a church was built.--J3Mrs (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks!-- Beloved Freak  22:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)Sorry to be late in this discussion, but I was tied up last evening. I'm not surprised you are confused on this matter; it took me some time to sort out. I think the following is correct, but I am no expert.

It is confusing because the word "parish" is used in two contexts, the ecclesiastical parish and the civil parish. To start with the ecclesiastical. In this sense a parish is a geographical area (part of a diocese with a bishop) under the control of a parish church. Way back in history some of these were enormous, but as the population grew and moved around, so new parishes were formed. I'm not sure of the precise history of Blackpool but I think the community of Bispham was present at a time when Blackpool contained very few homesteads. In fact before that, I should guess that the whole area was part of the parish of Poulton-le-Fylde. So it probably went like this: the parish of Bispham was created from a larger parish, and it covered the area where Blackpool now stands. Then as the population of Blackpool grew, the bishop decided it was large enough to merit being a separate parish, and so the parish of St John was established.

Just building a church does not make a parish. Very often a junior church was built within a parish, this is known as a chapel of ease and acted as a sort of outpost or mission church. If the population subsequently grew, it might become a parish church in its own right and have its own separate parish. Does that make sense? Let me know if it doesn't. The above applies to the Church of England. The Roman Catholic Church also has a system of parishes, with parish churches, and these are not co-terminus with the CoE parishes. The Methodist Church has districts, and so on.

A civil parish is entirely different and is part of local government, with its local council. I think at one time the whole country was parished (in this sense), but that does not apply today, especially with the existence of unitary authorities. For example, round here, within the Borough of Halton, the towns of Runcorn and Widnes are unparished, while the local villages like Daresbury and Moore have a parish council as an extra level of government, in addition to the borough. I know less about this, but I think this is broadly accurate.

Good luck with your DYK. The hook about being the first parish will be OK (provided it is properly cited), unless of course you find anything more "interesting".--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that does help. I thought I knew about this sort of thing, but it's more complicated than I realised! My sources have said that St John's was the first church in Blackpool, but I've found other sources mentioning other churches before 1821, but they may not have been Anglican, so that's what I will be checking out next. Hopefully I'll sort it out in time for a DYK. I hate the part about thinking up a hook! Anyway, thanks for your help, it gradually becomes clearer! (Few more trips to the library in order methinks...) -- Beloved Freak  09:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for St Mary Magdalene's Church, Boveney
The DYK project (nominate) 06:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for St Leonard's Church, Spernall
The DYK project (nominate) 12:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for St Mary's Church, Hardmead
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 18:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for St Andrew's Church, Woodwalton
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 06:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)