User talk:Philg88/Archive 27

Tech News: 2014-28
 Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

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Recent software changes
 * The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf12) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on July 3. It will be added to non-Wikipedia wikis on July 8, and to all Wikipedias on July 10 (calendar).
 * CirrusSearch was enabled on July 1 as the primary search method on 36 new wikis, including the Norwegian (no), Portuguese (pt) and Ukrainian (uk) Wikipedias.
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VisualEditor news
 * Saving an edit with VisualEditor will now be much faster.
 * You can now add a caption when you add a file to a page with VisualEditor. You can also change the file to a different one and keep the existing caption.
 * When you switch to the Edit source tab, you are now asked to keep your changes. You no longer need to find the option in the menus.
 * The reference tool that adds empty  tags is now at the bottom of the Cite menu, below references that use templates like.
 * Context menus will no longer be shown over items that you can edit directly, for example formulæ.

Future software changes
 * Starting on July 9, it will be possible to globally rename global (SUL ) users. The feature was first scheduled for July 1, but was delayed due to bugs.
 * A plan to enable CirrusSearch as the primary search method on the 11 largest Wikimedia wikis has now been prepared.
 * If you use references on a page, you will soon always see them at the bottom of the page, even if you forget to add the  tag (or a template).
 * Black-and-white XCF images will soon display correctly.
 * Description pages of SVG files will soon always show download links for multiple resolutions (example). The links were previously shown only for SVG files in large original resolutions.

Problems
 * Between July 2-3, there were problems with loading pages on multiple wikis due to a configuration issue.
 * For a few hours on July 1, there were problems with uploading new files on Wikimedia Commons due to a configuration error.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.  07:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Coordinates ref
I agree with your reasoning and would always omit said refs. But I note a coords_ref parameter in the infobox protected area template, and its documentation says the parameter is "strongly recommended". This is another case where templates, help files, etc., are out of sync with the wisdom of experienced editors. That will always result in counterproductive conflict and wasted effort. Many editors will do one thing because the doc says they should, and many others will do the opposite because they disagree with the doc. The two sides will be endlessly "correcting" the other's work, and a lot of otherwise unnecessary time will be spent in article talk seeking consensus. This is not to mention the potential for edit warring and the resulting ill will. Why create opportunity for that when it's so easy to avoid it? It's no way to run an encyclopedia, imo. Mandruss (talk) 10:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "Strongly recommended" and "not mandatory" say basically the same thing from opposite perspectives but what it boils down to is that there is no hard and fast rule about coordinate sourcing. The problem with precise rules is that there are sometimes exceptions, which is why Wikipedia works on concensus according to a framework of policies. If it were mandated that all coordinates had to be referenced, thousands of articles would need to be edited and the offending template removed. Not only would that would be a tremendous waste of time that could be used more effectively elsewhere, it would go against the idea of building an encyclopedia. Yes, sometimes Wikipedia can be frustrating but ultimately the way it operates does work. Philg88 ♦talk 05:56, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Points taken. But how is the average editor to learn about these consensuses? By word of mouth? Mandruss (talk) 07:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a good question. I guess the answer is that editors need to read a lot and hang back from discussions in key areas until they get a feel for how things operate. As you know, the Teahouse is a pretty good place for answers as is the Reference Desk. IMHO it takes at least a couple of years of in-depth involvement to understand the nuances of Wikipedia. Philg88 ♦talk 07:31, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * So every time I think an editor is both deviating from the doc and wrong, I should go to Teahouse or RD to find out whether there's a consensus I'm not aware of? And not just me, but every editor like me? I'm beginning to realize that, for me, the bottom line is (1) my digital mind doesn't cope very well with analog situations, and (2) I care too much; after all, at the end of the day, It's Only Wikipedia (someone needs to create a WP:IOWP file!) Anyway, thanks for trying. Mandruss (talk) 08:04, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Give it time and you'll get used to it. Meanwhile, your digital mind seems to be making good progress in improving the project. Cheers,  Philg88 ♦talk 08:11, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Coordinates precision, continued
Continuation of discussion at: Teahouse/Questions.

You converted the dms coordinates to decimal with six decimal positions. You then reasoned that, since six decimal positions gives a resolution of about 10 cm, dms is therefore too precise for the given application. That seems flawed to me. I think the question that should be asked is, what is the distance difference between adjacent seconds of lat or long? Using the table at WP:OPCOORD, and knowing that a second is 1/360 of a degree, I get roughly 250 m (90 km / 360). That is one-third the diameter of the object circle. Therefore, if anything, dms is a little less precise than the guideline suggests (A general rule is to give precisions approximately one tenth the size of the object). According to the table, four decimal positions gives a resolution of about 9 m, or 1/83 the size of the object, while three decimal positions would be 1/8.3 the size of the object. So, of the three alternative formats, the closest to the guideline would be three decimal positions. Would you concur? (In hindsight, I could have done all this thinking before I asked the question, and I should have.)

''Some smart guy should create a tool to give the best format for a given object size. That's what computers are for!''

As for my other question, whether to start with the GNIS coordinates of the town or try to approximate the center of the circle, I think the latter would be the only logical thing to do, since it's that circle that determines the precision. Do you agree? And would doing that be safe from WP:NOR objections? Mandruss (talk) 05:42, 5 July 2014 (UTC)


 * . Hi there. This is a bit random but here we go. Thinking about it, isn't the map scale at the heart of this issue? WP:OPCOORD suggests using 1:50,000 for "events" via the t:edu parameter to coord. As I said earlier, four decimal places isn't a hard and fast rule so three is no problem and fits your diameter calculations. As for the location of the killings, using OSM with the current six digit coordinates I get a position in the center of a square bounded by Abrego, Sueno, California del Sur and Camino Pescadero, which AFAICT doesn't seem to be the center of the campus. I have some fairly sophisticated mapping software that provides six degrees of precision for any coordinate location on the OSM world map, so if you want me to find the center of your circle, just tell me where to put it. I don't think there can be any OR concerns as the data is verifiable via multiple sources. Best,  Philg88 ♦talk 06:40, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "The current six digit coordinates" you refer to are the decimal equivalent of the GNIS (dms) coordinates for the "populated place" of Isla Vista. I'm not sure exactly how GNIS determines those coordinates. Note that the campus isn't relevant since none of the killing spree occurred on campus. For defining the circle I'm using the two most distant crime scenes, and imagining a circle just large enough to enclose those two points. Those points are:

And I was wrong, that circle is more like 900 m, not 750. Using three decimal positions I'm currently estimating a center at 34.412 N 119.859 W. If you can improve on that, all the better. Mandruss (talk) 06:57, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Intersection of Del Playa Dr and Camino Del Sur (southwest)
 * Intersection of Segovia Rd and Embarcadero Del Norte (northeast)
 * My calculations:


 * Intersection of DPD/CDS 34.40978°N, -119.86264°W
 * Intersection of SR/SDN 34.41444°N, -119.8554°W


 * From that I make the center at 34.41246°N, -119.85899°W, which is pretty much bang on yours.


 * Now I have an important appointment with Sniper Elite III Back later.  Philg88 ♦talk 07:32, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Welcome back. I hope you killed a lot of guys in Sniper Elite III (bad guys, preferably).
 * Ok thanks. Now, to revisit the OR question one more time:
 * I don't think there can be any OR concerns as the data is verifiable via multiple sources. Well actually the raw data --- the locations of the crime scenes --- is verifiable. There's no source that provides the center of the circle, and therefore none that directly supports the coordinates. It seems to me that it takes some WP:OR or WP:SYN to get there, and that's what we've been doing in this discussion. I don't necessarily have a problem with bending rules where they don't make sense, but I'd like to know that's what I'm doing. I've been struggling with the concept of OR for quite awhile. Mandruss (talk) 07:40, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, while I have your attention, what would you think about the value of a table like this one following the existing table at WP:OPCOORD? Mandruss (talk) 10:14, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

No friendly fire casualties, I'm please to report. As far as OR/SYNTH concerns go with the Vista killings, I don't think anyone is going to be obtuse enough to argue that this extends to a proven mathematical formula (i.e. three non-linear equidistant points when joined lie on the circumference of a circle, the center of which can then be determined).

Nice job on the table! Should be very useful so those who are interested. Where are you planning to put it? Might be suitable at the end of WP:OPCOORD or in the coord documentation. Philg88 ♦talk 03:25, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Popping in here from following this discussion in the Teahouse, just to mention that here I see a good reason for decimal lat&long: It gives you much finer control over precision than sexagesimal (base-60). --Thnidu (talk) 05:21, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed.  Philg88 ♦talk 05:30, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Regarding WP:OR and WP:V, I'd rather the coordinates be sourced, too. I've already seen a few that are in the opposite side of the country from where they should be. On precision, I think these concerns are overkill; all one needs most of the time is just common sense. No 1E&minus;6 precision is ever needed for large cities, and three decimal places (around 11.1 meters if approximating 1° to 60 nautical miles) for the location of an attack or any landmark in a city should never be sufficient. TLA 3x &#x266d;  →  &#x266e;  05:45, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Conversely, if someone enters the wrong coordinates with a reference, the result is exactly the same, i.e. incorrect data. Mandating that coordinates must be referenced doesn't solve the problem. Unlike much of the data on Wikipedia, coordinates (when correct) can't really be challenged, we just need to ensure that they are correct in the first place, whatever the source. This is really a case of SOFIXIT as opposed to a policy matter. Philg88 ♦talk 06:05, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * : On precision, I think these concerns are overkill; all one needs most of the time is just common sense. I think one needs some common sense, a solid understanding of how maps and lat&long work, and a fair level of math (arithmetic) skills. Not many WP editors have enough of all three for this kind of thing (in my experience, your average grownup thinks precision and accuracy are synonyms, for example). If the community wants more quality and consistency in this area, we'll have to (1) figure out ways to make these things easier for the average editor, and (2) provide clear and consistent guidance in help files. Simply encouraging people to use common sense won't get us there, imo. Mandruss (talk) 07:40, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * : Where are you planning to put it? I wouldn't be comfortable modifying any help file without first consulting some appropriate group. Where would you suggest I go to sell this? Mandruss (talk) 07:40, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't go anywhere to sell it. Be bold and add it per my suggestions above. I don't think anyone will complain about a useful addition to the encyclopedia but if you're concerned post a message at the Coordinates Project talk page with a ping to and  who are both active in this area. You certainly have my support for the addition. Best,  Philg88 ♦talk 10:21, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't go anywhere to sell it. Yeah, but what you can do is different from what I can do. You have two things I don't: longevity and a ton of community respect. I've already had an unpleasant encounter with Andy Mabbett, who appeared to judge my argument on my length of service rather than on its merits (as well as distorting my argument so it could be more easily countered). Based on that experience, if I were WP:BOLD I would expect that Mr. Mabbett would (1) see my userid, (2) look briefly at the tables, and (3) revert with some obscure and obtuse edit summary. No thanks, I'll try the WP:TIMID approach instead. Mandruss (talk) 11:13, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Taking this to the project talk page was a smart move. I've commented there. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 13:59, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Absent a response, I went ahead and added the tables, adding to the talk page. Mandruss (talk) 13:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Seems sensible, maybe you'll get some comments now. Philg88 ♦talk 15:59, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * : three decimal places (around 11.1 meters if approximating 1° to 60 nautical miles) for the location of an attack or any landmark in a city should never be sufficient. That statement gets my attention, since it goes to the heart of the tables I created, which I'm going to try to get into the help files. The tables clearly suggest three decimal positions for 2014 Isla Vista killings (object size ~950 m, latitude ~34°). Note that I didn't just pull the tables out of my hat; they are derived from existing information at WP:OPCOORD. It may be that you wouldn't apply your statement to this case since the attacks covered a wider area than most do. But, if you would apply it here, could I persuade you to look at my methodology and tell me where you think it's flawed? Mandruss (talk) 09:37, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

inre Articles for deletion/Blood Stained Tradewind
There have been developments. Care to revisit the discussion? Thanks.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 21:44, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the message . !vote duly registered. I've also cleaned up the article text a bit. Philg88 ♦talk 05:36, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Happy to be of help.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 12:47, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
 * There is another one in the same vein here. If you have time, please take a look. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 09:07, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Saharanpur in use?
Hello, Philg88. Did you forget to remove an 'in use' template from Saharanpur? The template was in place, but the page hadn't been edited in about 10 hours. I removed the template – though actually, I had disambiguated a link to 'English' before I noticed it. Please re-add the template if you are still copy editing. Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 02:37, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi there and thanks for the message. No, I didn't forget to remove the template, the article is in the middle of copyediting. Sometimes I need to eat and sleep though . Cheers,  Philg88 ♦talk 04:47, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

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Dead water
Hey Kompis, it's just me again. Once I had referenced the Götheborg (ship) I did not feel like leaving it just yet since I had a book and all (it's such a nice ship), so I wrote some things myself and I am currently expanding the article by translating sections from the SweWiki. Btw, thanks for putting the Main about the Swedish East India Company. :) I would have missed that. I put a similar Main for the ship in that article. When it comes to ships, the SweWiki is not as bad as it usually is. I think that editors dealing with ships are more used to documenting things in logs and such, so the articles are usually rather well referenced. When I translate I try to stay as true to the original text as possible. I feel I owe it to the editor who wrote the thing. But, in this case I ran into something unexpected. In the section "Sinking" the Swe editor has a lengthy and detailed explanations about dead water with examples and everything. But I realized that this is because the SweWiki does not have an article about dead water, and that the article here covers just about everything written in the Swedish article about the ship. So I just skipped all of that in the translation. Was this a correct thing to do, or should I translate that too? Cheers, - W.carter (talk) 23:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey . That was the right call. If we have a dead water article there is no point in duplicating that content elsewhere. On a different note, one of my areas of interest is historic trade with China. Wikipedia's coverage of the general topic is largely Anglo-American centric even though the other European East India Companies played an important role - for example in 1741, the Swedish East India Company was the largest black tea trader in Canton (see Canton System for details). If you come across any Swedish sources in this area it would be great to expand the relevant articles accordingly. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 07:00, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey Tai-pan, happy to be of service. It's a fascinating subject that has grown on me as I read about the background of the ship. I had some vague idea about the whole thing before, but I will certainly do some more digging. There are a some things still to add to the Götheborg and I saw that the SweWiki article on Swedish East India Company is a GA full of goodies so I was already thinking about expanding that one here. There is plenty of good literature too so this should be fun. Someone else also liked my expansion of the Götheborg. A couple of days ago it was upgraded to B-class. :) Oh, and I've placed the Bauer article in line at the CE guild. We'll just have to wait and see. Best, - W.carter (talk) 08:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds good . It would be nice to see Swedish East India Company as a GA. I see that the University of Gothenburg has the company's archives and its times like this that I wish I could read Swedish! Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 09:49, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, you just have to holler, and I'll translate whatever you want. :) It would be really nice to finally be able to do something for you since you've been helping me so much. Cheers, - W.carter (talk) 09:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Hej Kompis, I think I have done as much as I can for now on the Götheborg. There are of course lots and lots more to add if one should feel so inclined. Maybe later. I'll move on and start to read up on the Swedish East India Company before I begin to translate. It's always better to know something about a subject before messing with it. If you have the time and if you feel like it, the Götheborg (ship) could really use some copy editing. No rush, I'm not going to nominate it or anything, but it would be nice if the article looked good just the same. I think I've left my paw-prints all over the text by now and there are so many technical things in the text. There is one word I am unsure about using: porcelain. My first instinct was to use "china" or "china ware", but porcelain is the word used in the English section of the book. The finds from the ship really look like the pictures in the porcelain article, but to me the word sounds more like something to do with bathrooms or dentists! Advice would be nice. All the best, w.carter -Talk  21:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ahoy ! Good work on the Götheborg, I'll give it the once over in the next couple of days. As for "porcelain", as I understand it this is a specific type of ceramic due to its kaolin content, so it is correct to use the specific term rather than a more generic reference to Chinaware. You are of course correct that porcelain is used to make toilets and urinals but that came later - when porcelain first arrived from the Orient a luxury toilet would have been a hole in the ground surrounded by grass :) Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 07:34, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Aye, aye Captain! Thanks. :) w.carter -Talk  07:44, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Help
Please can you make a map of File:Location_map_India_Andhra_Pradesh_EN.svg with slight correction. Reference a small portion of addition near West Godavari district.--Vin09 (talk) 14:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi and thanks for the message. Please see my response to your request at the map workshop. Cheers,  Philg88 ♦talk 05:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Precious
Moved to User:Philg88/Barnstars


 * Thank kindly, much appreciated!  Philg88 ♦talk 05:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I feel that hitting a "Thanks" button is inadequate.
Hence, I'll be explicit: Thank you for those translations. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * You're welcome . I stumbled across the frustration you expressed elsewhere and thought the translations might help. Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 14:31, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

BTW: Similar such translations would (in my undoubtedly biased opinion) be "more than useful" in other articles. Do you have the available time to add such useful information to other articles like, for example, Paracel Islands? Pdfpdf (talk) 14:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ Philg88 ♦talk 06:13, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. "Look! Up in the sky! Is it a bird? Is it a plane? ... 
 * Yes. I'm impressed. Thank you! Pdfpdf (talk) 12:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

SOIC
I certainly have my work cut out for me now. ;) My small library yielded a couple thousand pages on the Swedish East India Company (SOIC), And as I started digging around it turns out that almost all of the documents from the archives are now digitalized and available on line. They must all be considered primary sources, so maybe not so good for the article, but since you have a special interest in this I thought I could mention it to you. Most of the documents are not transcribed but there is very much text about them so they should be readable with Google translate, and I think you can enjoy just looking at the actual documents. (Plus you have your very own translator just a couple of clicks away.^^) This is the start page of the archive at the Nordic Museum. It contains the documents collected by one Jean Abraham Grill. The digital archive contains 7,000 documents! Just click around a bit and you'll see. The Gothenburg university library has all of the documents from the SOIC digitalized and on line here. Just click on the "digital kopia" (digital copy) to access them, and you'll find beauties like this one. ("Flash" is required.) I entered "Canton" in the search box and could find several diaries written by captains and also things like this "Ships chaplain C.C. Ströms papers, no. 1166: French translation of an edict by the Mandarine Fou yune-Lhy to the English consul in Canton." And on this page there are links to even more museums with digitalized documents about the SOIC. Overwhelming to say the least. If I really wanted to this article could quite easily become one of the largest on the EngWiki. But I'll just take it one bit at the time, and hope you can provide some good language later.^^ Cheers, w.carter -Talk  22:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, those are some awesome sources! I should have known that the Swedes would have digitised their archives methodically and thoroughly :) When I get some some time I will have a proper look - a quick scan of that French document (a language I can read, thankfully) proved most interesting. Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 06:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad you like it. I'm hooked myself. Many of the documents reads like some western (Eastern?). A cross between Hell on Wheels ("Hell on waves?") and Dances with Wolves ("Dances with Dragons?"). Just a note in case you think your Google translator has gone mad. The Swedish word for "east" is "öst". The letter Ö is pronounced like the "œu" in the French word for eggs, "œufs". In English the closest letter is "U". But, when inserted in a context "öst" looses the dots and becomes "ost" with the different letter "O" instead, like in "Ostindiska Kompaniet" (East India Company) in the 17th century spelled "Ostindiska Companiet" hence SOIC. This word "ost" also means "cheese" in Swedish (don't ask me why) same spelling, exact same pronunciation. This is naturally the base of many Swedish maritime jokes. So do not be alarmed if the translation of "Ostindiska Kompaniet" turns out "the Cheesy India Company". It's just our weird language. Cheese, w.carter -Talk  09:26, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I also saw that the diary of Colin Campbell has been made into a book in English. I'm not familiar with Google books, but it seems to exist there. A hard copy is also available at one of the second-hand bookshops where I shop. They ship abroad if you are interested. Best, w.carter -Talk  16:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks like a nice book, but at a hundred quid it's a bit outside my budget range! Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 05:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Mine too.:-/ I have to stick to libraries. About a hundred pages into the book pile, I've done some editing at SOIC. Just 1.900 more pages to go. Best, w.carter -Talk  06:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

My friend, on my way to work I realized how snobbish my pre-previous post sounded. I do shop there, but at the dirt cheap section where gems can be found. The site is a collected site for all secondhand book dealers in Sweden, including the private ones with just a bunch of books in a closet. Like, a couple of weeks ago I put in a request and The impossible-to-find, pristine, leather bound with gilded pages, 1935 biography on John Bauer is now mine for three dollars. I can now expand the JB article with rare material whenever I want! (that is...later) :) Best, w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  08:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Not snobbish at all, just an observation. BTW, for an interesting if light-hearted article read this. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 09:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hilarious! Thank You, it brightened up my evening. I'll be sure to pass it on to various friends. That is, friends who I otherwise have surreal talks with on subject like this. Cat lovers all. Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  19:09, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * P.S. I was thinking, maybe the Swedes aren't the only ones with good digital archives, so I took a look at the other countries/companies as well. This might be old hat to you, but the Dutch have made a beautiful presentation of documents related to their travels here. I can not read a word of Dutch but all you have to do is click on the dots and then on some tabs and you get wonderful original maps and pictures. The page is pretty self-explanatory. The search continues.:) (!) And I just realized that there is an In-English-Button. (!) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  20:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Another excellent find,, well done! Philg88 ♦talk 06:19, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

@Philg88:  Finds of the day: An English journal from a journey, 1735-1739, on a Swedish ship written by aforementioned Colin Campbell. A pass in English for one of the members of SOIC. And finally, how is your Latin?^^ That's all for now. Cheers, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  02:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC) Thanks, that journal is an awesome find. It's a shame it doesn't cover what happened when the ship arrived in Canton. Information on trading conditions in China during that early period would make an excellent addition to the Canton System article. The pass for Claes Grill & Sons is also interesitng - do you know anything more about this firm? Did they set up operations in the Swedish Factory in Canton? Finally, the Latin document are the Letters patent granted by King Frederick of Sweden to a merchant called Henry König. I haven't read the whole thing but basically its about granting him trade rights. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 07:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Tjaba (very informal greeting^^) ! From what I've read so far the Grill family was one of the major families/traders associated with the SOIC. I think there is more about them in my next book. If you look at the top of this section you will find one Grill that I mentioned leaving 7,000 documents to the Nordic Museum. Many other describe the trade at Canton quite well and in detail. As a matter of fact I just read a section of it some hours ago. (We're having a heat wave here and I could not sleep. Well, when you live where 0-3°C is called nice and balmy, 30-33°C is unbearable...) The trade is not described from a sophisticated point of view. Just the observations of some crude barbarians out to make a fast buck (if 2-3 year at sea can be called fast), like how they were treated and their fascination for the Chinese. But they must have been liked since they befriended one of the mandarins, Poan Key-qua (the spelling varies), who even came to Gothenburg and stayed for a couple of months. His portrait is one of the treasures at the Gothenburg Museum (now in the old SOIC house). I think it's safe to say that the Swedes were the mutts of the trade. But sometimes mutts are easier to like than haughty dogs with pedigree.


 * I will put all of the information I find in various articles, there is just so much of it!! I wonder how much there would have been if most of it had not been burned. And I want to read as much as I can before starting to write. I have also noticed some discrepancies between the books, and I want to be aware of them when I write. And maybe confirm things with some third source. I did that when writing the notes about the wharfs in the article. If you look at Note "n", you'll see that the SOIC books differ but a book about the wharf (which I had to find) settled it. Hope I'm not too picky, but since I don't know this subject from Adam I can't go on hunches to get things right. Swedes may have been small fish in the global trade, but in Sweden the trade was of enormous importance since it literary built Gothenburg, and is therefore well documented. Cheers, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  10:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Correct spelling may be Phuankhequa. I Googled it and came up with Google books The Hong Merchants of Canton: Chinese Merchants in Sino-Western Trade, 1684-1798 where the Swedes are described as "childish". So I was right about my "mutt" assessment. :) <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  12:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * And I saw that you had done some CE on the article. Thank you! But do not trouble yourself too much with it just yet. The article was a bit of a mess when I found it. So far I have not contributed any text to the "main" area. My first job have just been to tidy up, structure, and make it ready to be expanded. There were (as always in articles written by Swedes) not enough references, the language was appalling, some facts are just wrong, etc. Parts of the text will be replaced, corrected or re-written as I find more facts. So save your energy for later to correct my mistakes instead. Again, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comments on copyediting noted, thanks. I hope that Claes Grill & Sons emerges as a non-redlink article emerges from your work. Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 15:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * So, "no preassure at all", heh... Well, this should keep me busy for the rest of the year. I reverted one of your CE's (Gasp! I dared!) se talk page for our fuzzy language. Cheers, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  15:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

No problem with the revert. A strange language indeed - there is no similar dual/allusive usage in English. You might want to add "(sic)" after the word "on" to prevent someone else making the same correction in the future. Philg88 ♦talk 15:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ - I joke around a lot, but I honestly really like working with this project, and I am so grateful for all your tips and guidance. Thank you. For now, best <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  15:43, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Oliver Evans
Hi Philg88,

A little while ago you interacted a bit with the work I was doing on Oliver Evans. I've put it up for GA but it's been sitting there since April and I was hoping you might be able to do the review since I'd like to put it up ultimately for FA status. Only if you have the time of course! Cheers, Unus Multorum (talk) 09:24, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi and thanks for the message. I'll take the review as Oliver was an interesting chap :). I've updated the relevant pages with the review status but please be aware that I'm a bit tied up with a Guild of Copy Editors drive at the moment so you won't see much progress until the end of the month. Cheers,  Philg88 ♦talk 09:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * We're almost there apart from some minor (I hope) sourcing issues. Great article! Philg88 ♦talk 00:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on this review, I really appreciate it, let me know if I can return the favour at some point. Unus Multorum (talk) 01:09, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * @Unus Multorum:  You're welcome. As you've probably seen on your talk page the article is now listed at the GA page. Best,  Philg88 ♦talk 04:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Ying Wa Primary School
Hi. 'Redirect' is a perfectly acceptable alternative to  deletion as you  correctly  mentioned by  citing  OUTCOMES, and as described at  WP:DELETION (a policy), so  there is no  need to  bring  the articles to  AfD if that  is the action  you  reccommend. Feel free to  do  the redirect  yourself. It is a far less bureaucratic action and will  never entrain  criticism if at  some stage the redirect  is reverted. That would be the moment  for AfD. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:01, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi and thanks for the message. I agree that there is no real need for an AfD submission where a bold redirect will do. That said, it's important that editors, especially new ones, understand why these articles get redirected to avoid potential revert wars that waste time. I rarely submit redirect proposals to AfD for these type of articles, but rather tend to rubber stamp the ones that turn up there. I suspect that over time the process will balance itself out as the usual consensus becomes apparent and such articles are no longer created in the first place. Best,  Philg88 ♦talk 06:15, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your considered relpy, Phil. You may  be interested in  a current  discussion  on  my  talk  page. Whether you  agree with  it  or not your comments would be most  appreciated. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:25, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the invitation . I'd be happy to comment but I don't really have anything to add to your existing arguments. I agree with you that we need to find a way to stop AfD getting snarled up with unnecessary submissions but by the same token I don't think is acting in anything other than good faith. I will watch with interest to see where the discussion ends up. Best,  Philg88 ♦talk 07:15, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've never contended for a moment that  Epee is not  acting  in  GF, but  sometimes GF actions may  not  be quite appropriate for the smooth  management  of the 'pedia. Anyway, his work serves only  as a catalyst  for discussion  on  what  could be undertaken to  alleviate the burden on  AfD, and best  inform other editors of the way  school  articles are generally  handled. Do  feel  free to  comment  there even if it  is only to  add some balance to  the discussion. and help  us to  formulate a project  we can offer to  the broader community  for  discussion. Cheers. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:24, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * ...Hmm... Let me give this issue some further thought before I comment. Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 07:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Re: A belated welcome!
Thank you for the warm welcome,bro. It's very nice. And thank you for answering my question in Teahouse once again!--HKM (talk) 14:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * 不客气，我真开心帮给您. 祝好， 菲利普, a.k.a.  Philg88 ♦talk 15:29, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

delhi map
Wrt these two maps File:Delhi location map.png and File:Location map India Delhi EN.svg, you have edited Module:Location map/data/India Delhi to change map but kept the coordinates same. But these two maps look slightly offset, so coordinates of these two maps cant be same. I would be happy if you could correct coordinates of the new map in the module. Anyway the difference looks very less so even if it is not corrected, it shouldnt change location of much error offset. Wantsallanger (talk) 03:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ Philg88 ♦talk 05:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!
Moved to User:Philg88/Barnstars
 * Thanks,, that was indeed "random" - I didn't do a lot! Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 05:56, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

July GOCE drive
Barnstars move to User:Philg88/Barnstars

Chinese Pavilion
Hello my friend. WOW! That is one impressive tower of CE-awards! Knowing you, you probably deserve twice as many. :) I'm starting with the last book now, and I realized that the Chinese Pavilion at Drottningholm will have to be mentioned somewhere in the SOIC. A look at said article left me unimpressed, so I expanded it. It's about art and I've visited the place a number of times so I knew most of it already, so no big deal. If you like you can cast a brief look at it, I think you might enjoy it as a humorous attempt by China-besotted Swedes to build something. I left some notes at the talk page, plus to my considerable surprise it had been overlooked at the Drottningholm Palace, so I put a sentence there plus a "main". Not sure if a corresponding "main" should be placed at the pavilion. A CE might be in order, but if you would like to do that, it can wait until you recover from the CE-drive, say... around Christmas? I just wanted a nice article to link to. I'll get back to the Grills soon enough, just wanted some light work to relax with today. Best, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  13:59, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, good to hear from you. As you know I've done some copyediting on the pavilion article and it should be a bit better now. Sorry about having to put "Canton Street, Drottningholm" in full in the "Canton Street" section but the bare name is currently a redirect, which breaks the ill template I used for the cross-wiki link. That template is very smart, since it will automatically make itself vanish once the page is translated without the need for an editor to do anything. In this case it will need a manual pipe, so for now it will look ugly. Keep up the good work! Best, Philg88 ♦talk 07:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You are, as usual, too kind in making such fast ce's. :) The ill thing was one of the first things I learned about here. I have not used it, since I prefer to make articles rather than red links. A apologize for my fellow countrymen calling streets and parts of towns names they have no business using, and messing up the Wiki. Thanks for straighten things out. When I wrote the thing I put the Canton community with '' since I was unsure of the status of the name. You changed it to "Canton". I have since learned that the part of Stockholm really is called Canton. Just like parts of London are called Camden, Soho or Hammersmith. And I'm at a bit of a loss of how to write it now. One way would be to use the modern Swedish name Kanton. The Swedish article is probably written by some history buff who used the C. It's a never-ending thing here with names, old spelling vs new. The same thing is going on with my town, Visby vs Wisby. It's a matter of style. Like if you live in the area you want the spelling to be Canton, but if you want to find it on Google maps or get a building permit from some state department you use the Kanton. Advise? Thanks again, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter  <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  08:44, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, on English Wikipedia decisions like this are normally based on WP:COMMONNAME, . In this case, because we're talking about a Swedish name, that's a bit problematic. I'm not sure if there is a Swedish equivalent of the Google Ngram tool, but if there is I would use that. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 12:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

As usual you point me in the right direction, and things turn out well.:) I've looked through all official sites and the right name is Kanton and Kantongatan. Only people living there and the SweWiki use the old spelling. You can see the proof here (hope the link works, it takes a while for it to upload the right place). For weird addresses see the official address of the Chinese Pavilion: Kina Slott, Kina, Kantongatan, 178 93 Drottningholm, Sverige. ^^ I also learned some useful things about official names of places in Sweden. Towns, companies and stuff that were known outside Sweden before we "went global" (about 40 years ago) usually have another name in English. Like Göteborg — Gothenborg. And I saw a heated discussion here about Riksdag vs "Riksdagen" not so long ago. For the rest the spelling is the same in Swedish and other languages. People today know that there are other letters in some alphabets than A–Z. This goes for streets as well see: Strandvägen eg. So no need to bother with translations, I've used Kantongatan in the article, and this simplifies a lot. You have really good instincts! Many old towns and companies are fighting to get their "real" name back. Skanska ditched their ring over the a, the "å", some years ago and now deeply regrets it. Gothenburg is taking the whole thing a step further: Why stop at reclaiming the name, why not make it "cyber". They are currently campaigning to flip the ö, making the spelling Go:teborg instead of Göteborg. So, long explanation, but since you are knee-deep in translations, maps, different languages, etc. I thought you might find such trivia amusing. Cheers, <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  18:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I think missed your vocation as a lexicographer :)  Philg88 ♦talk 07:11, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Card carrying member of the Most Annoying Society of Investigating Wikipedians, sir. <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">w.carter <em style="font-family:Verdana;color:DarkBlue">-Talk  08:25, 5 August 2014 (UTC)