User talk:Philomathes2357


 * 2020-2021


 * 2022


 * 2023

999 edits since: 2020-05-15
Make your next one count! It's a special one! jp×g🗯️ 07:30, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Article issues at The Real Anthony Fauci
Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit(s) you made to The Real Anthony Fauci, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Ixocactus (talk) 04:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I second this. Get a consensus first. Use the talk page and don't edit war. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 04:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have posted about this on the talk page. You have both been pinged there. I do not appreciate being called a "weasel", a "vandal", and "unconstructive", when I am obviously none of those things. I think it's quite rude, and I think it demonstrates that some editors have an emotional attachment to the content in question, which is not appropriate. Hopefully the personal attacks and negative insinuations are done and over with. Philomathes2357 (talk) 06:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Stop personalizing this. Focus on content, not editors' motives. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 13:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You have recently made edits related to COVID-19, broadly construed. This is a standard message to inform you that COVID-19, broadly construed is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Contentious topics.

You have recently made edits related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. This is a standard message to inform you that articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Contentious topics.

You have recently made edits related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people. This is a standard message to inform you that post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Contentious topics.  Acroterion   (talk)   12:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Acroterion, thank you for posting those notifications. At Talk:The Real Anthony Fauci, I have warned Philomathes2357 about violatoin of COATRACK and personal attacks. I have even stricken a large one that personalized the discussion. Philomathes2357 should comment on content, not editors' motives. I warned Philomathes2357 that they should be careful if they wish to avoid returning to ANI (there have been huge problems with them in the past) and getting a topic ban or worse.
 * I don't recall right now, but isn't Philomathes2357 already editing under some type of topic ban or warnings already and needs to be extra careful? They seem to have forgotten they are living in jeopardy already. I think the issues were promotion of fringe political POV and related edit warring and POV pushing, and thus an American politics type of warning/tban. This should include a warning/tban for pushing Fringe theories about COVID-19 and defending Kennedy, a very prominent pusher of dangerous fringe POV. We do not allow ADVOCACY of such fringe POV here. We treat such advocacy like we treat snide remarks about transgender people and racism. IOW, we take it very seriously, as such editors are poison to the project.
 * If Philomathes2357 is already living under warnings or a tban, then further action/blocks should be taken. Otherwise, such warnings and at least two different tbans should be issued to protect the project and its editors from personal attacks and the time sink created by long discussions.
 * On 25 January 2023 User:Bishonen "unblocked Philomathes2357 talk contribs (The block is lifted on certain conditions, outlined at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Philomathes2357&oldid=1135629704#Unblock_conditions and accepted by the user.) Should a longer block be reinstated? -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 13:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The topic ban expired (see the archive for this talkpage), but I see a consistent behavioral pattern with this editor's conduct.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay. I just looked at the rest of this talk page at the time of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Philomathes2357&oldid=1135629704#Unblock_conditions . It's a reminder of past behavior, and I'm getting a huge deja vu now. We have been here before.
 * I see that Doug Weller also tried to explain things to this user. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 13:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The bottom line is the same - the sentence that I edited misrepresents the state of scientific research, and cites an out-of-date non-MEDRS source in order to further a political narrative. I demonstrated that, in detail, and provided multiple up-to-date MEDRS-compliant sources to make my point. Nobody has even bothered to address any of my points, much less rebut them. Instead, all you folks have done is engage in threats and personal attacks. Why is that? Why has public discourse become so poisonous that people get emotional about the current state of hydroxychloroquine research?
 * How about you all stop with the personal attacks and threats, and systematically rebut the 7 substantive points that I made (upon request) at the talk page? Philomathes2357 (talk) 16:05, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Article The Grayzone
Since WP:GS/SCW&ISIL and WP:RUSUKR have not yet fully migrated to the contentious topics system, these clunky templates are unfortunately still required for notification per WP:OLDDS: —  Newslinger  talk   18:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Sending general sanctions alerts to the editor who alerted you
In Special:Diff/1221780388, you posted general sanctions alerts for the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL and WP:RUSUKR topic areas on my user talk page shortly after I posted the same alerts on your user talk page in the section above (Special:Diff/1221744309). Please note that any editor who alerts another editor to a general sanctions topic area is already aware of the topic area, per and. Sending alerts to someone who just alerted you, as you have done here, serves no purpose procedurally and appears retaliatory. Please refrain from sending general sanctions alerts to editors immediately after they alert you of the same topic areas in the future. Thanks. —  Newslinger  talk   23:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Sure thing. Philomathes2357 (talk) 00:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Bludgeon
It might be time to read wp:bludgeon. Slatersteven (talk) 07:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks and misrepresentations
You need to stop personalizing this. You have been warned about doing that. Just because you're doing it off-wiki by mentioning me doesn't mean it isn't wrong or isn't noticed here. Several people have notified me, people who participate there. Be careful. What you do elsewhere can affect your wiki-reputation and come back to bite you. I suggest you keep this at Wikipedia and deal with it in the proper venues, without personal attacks or misrepresentations. I have just written a longer reply to you that corrects some of your misrepresentations. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 21:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Changed back
You're not correct. Most people have never heard of Indio. Please stop changing this and ask on the talk page if you have questions. Headtothestripe (talk) 06:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I do not have any questions. People can visit the article about Indio, California if they want to know more about it. You need to change your approach, or you are going to get banned from Wikipedia. You have a serious attitude problem, dude. Do not post on my talk page again. Philomathes2357 (talk) 07:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Enough, stop being difficult. Headtothestripe (talk) 07:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Post-1992 politics of the United States
You have recently made edits related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people. This is a standard message to inform you that post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Contentious topics. (I am not seeing an alert in the history of this page, even though this comment alludes to the fact that American politics post 1992 are designated contentious.) House Blaster  (talk · he/him) 23:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. Philomathes2357 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring at Deep state in the United States, in spite of previous sanctions
Your recent editing history at Deep state in the United States shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you do not violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 17:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm amazed you'd dare to edit war in this topic area, considering you were blocked for how you deal with these topics. Your unblock by Bishonen was conditional, and now you are violating those conditions. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 17:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Huh? I undid two edits, and "HandThatFeeds" undid two edits also. Then you, a third party, stepped in, which I will respect.
 * When HandThatFeeds mass-removed well-sourced content twice, he also made spurious accusations of bad faith and POV pushing. I have a suspicion that no warnings will be issued to him. Of course, if the rules were applied even-handedly, he would be issued a warning. Yet, I already know that he will not. Why is that? Philomathes2357 (talk) 17:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not how BRD works. The one who violates BRD (you) is the one who started the edit war, and is the one who gets warned. That is nearly always the way it works. You had made a whole lot of BOLD additions. They were REVERTED in one edit (with the exception of one addition that got caught up in the edit conflict). You should then have resorted to DISCUSSION, and only discussion. Instead, you restored your bold additions. That's edit warring. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 17:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Currently, the article is at the status quo version, and it should remain there until the RfC is finished. Other types of improvements can be made, just not on this topic. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 17:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to re-revert, so there's no issue there. The editor that removed the source content has made it clear that they do not wish to have a discussion. It's also a bit harder to have a discussion when 1) they are constantly editorializing about their personal opinions 2) they are constantly violating WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF with spurious accusations and insinuations. Will a warning be issued to this user?
 * Still, nobody has brought forth a policy-based or source-based argument to address the actual question asked by the RFC, instead choosing to comment on unrelated matters or expound on their personal opinions about the term "deep state". It is abundantly clear that the editorial positions of some users are based exclusively on those personal opinions. If you think a policy-based or source-based argument that directly responds to the question of the RFC has been made, perhaps you could point it out. I'm craving a policy-based, source-based argument to rebut my concern, and I'm disappointed that one has not been offered.
 * So far, I'm not seeing any partner for collaborative discussion, but I am hoping that one emerges. Philomathes2357 (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

June 2024
Please stop attacking other editors. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Your TP edit mocking editors who did not !vote in an RfC the way you did, with a made up transcript including the false statement that yes voters said: "So shut the f*ck up, or else", may have hit a new low. Civility is required for collaboration and is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia.WP:5P4 Please assume good faith and refrain from such broad attacks. O3000, Ret. (talk) 10:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I did not attack any specific editor. Yes, "shut the fuck up, or else", is not a direct quote, but I think it's a reasonable synthesis of this, this, and other remarks.
 * The "or else" refers to the fact that multiple editors have suggested that they want to find a way to ban me. I've also been doxxed during content disputes, so I take these things seriously. "shut the f*ck up, or else" is exactly how I've been made to feel. I "assume" good faith, but when I am directly accused of operating in bad faith, being a liar, being a POV-pusher (based on zero evidence) and cussed at (uncensored), and that behavior is either ignored or tacitly encouraged, my "assumption" starts to become strained. If you don't like the fact that I feel that way, I'm not sure what to say. I'm sorry if seeing the F word was jarring for you.
 * Since you're concerned with civility, I'm certain that you must have also warned "HandThatFeeds" regarding the above diffs, but I can't find the warning on their talk page. Maybe they deleted it? If you didn't think that those remarks merited a civility warning, but you think mine did, that's a problem. Philomathes2357 (talk) 17:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The fact that editors are removing the article from their watchlists due to your continuing walls of text. lack of WP:AGF, failure to WP:DROPTHESTICK, and WP:IDHT responses is not a threat or a gross, uncivil, cartoonish claim that anyone has said anything like "shut the fuck up or else." Haven't you agreed to stop this? Seriously, you cannot gain consensus by boring people or mocking them with an absurd phony dialogue that never occurred. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You have accused me of violating AGF while you simultaneously violate AGF in an objectively more egregious and personal way. I will respond, once, and then I will disengage.
 * 1) If I decide that I don't like the way another editor is approaching a content discussion, is it OK to say things like "that is a blatant lie", "I am accusing you of bad faith", "you are a POV-pusher", and to direct uncensored expletives at them personally? I was under the impression that such behaviors were the definition of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL violations, but it appears that I stand corrected.
 * 2) To be absolutely clear, I have not "mocked" anybody, that is a misleading accusation which is itself an AGF violation. I have summarized, in dialogue form, my sincere subjective view of how the conversation has played out, in response to another editor who felt that the "yes" arguments have been "circular". I did not reference any editors. The post was about content, not the editors who have posted it.
 * Considering the fact that I did not attack any editor at any point, and considering the fact that it is impossible to stop doing something that I have not started doing, your statement "stop attacking other editors. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing." is pretty darn synonymous to "shut the f*ck up, or else". Ironic.
 * By the way, the other editor agreed with my (obviously non-literal) assessment, and implied that you have an inappropriate WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude. Something for you to think about, "Objective" 3000.
 * 3) For the record, the type of behavior exhibited on the talk page is so toxic and repulsive to other editors that it has scared them away from the discussion. Every time I choose to question a piece of content, I receive private emails from other users, saying, essentially, "I agree with you, but I am afraid to say so publicly because of the potential consequences." They don't want to be called names, mocked, bullied, falsely accused of wrongdoing, or doxxed.
 * I got another email along those lines just a couple of hours ago, from a prominent, well-known editor, who will remain anonymous. They said, and I directly quote, "I think you are added a needed alternative perspective to a lot of US political articles. Over time many of the other editors who were willing to do similar work have been beaten down or chased out by many of the editors with whom you are arguing now". Another thing you should reflect on, before you wag your finger in my face again.
 * 4) With that out of the way, I will readily concede one point - using foul language is not appropriate, and I will edit my remark to remove the expletive. Taking the bait and stooping to that level is always a mistake - no matter how uncivil the behavior of other editors, I strive to remain calm and focus on content. Using the F-word out of frustration is beneath the standard to which I try to hold myself, and could be misinterpreted. It will be removed by the time you read this. While I don't appreciate the way you went about it, I do appreciate you holding me to a high standard.
 * All the best. Philomathes2357 (talk) 22:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Good grief. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Good grief, indeed. Philomathes2357 (talk) 00:00, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Added to article Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity
Thank you for your edits on Scott Ritter.

As of March 2024, Scott Ritter is a member of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. https://consortiumnews.com/2024/03/25/vips-memo-the-french-road-to-nuclear-war Ironcurtain2 (talk) 08:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Just a quick comment here, but beware of Consortium News: "There is consensus that Consortium News is generally unreliable." (WP:RSP) It might be fine here on the talk page for this information. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 21:19, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The more important point would be that VIPS is an unreliable group. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 21:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, if a better source exists for Ritter's VIPS membership, we can use it instead. Philomathes2357 (talk) 21:31, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If there isn't a better source, it's probably okay for this purpose. Is there something on the VIPS website? ABOUTSELF applies. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 21:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Nearly identical user pages
This is for and. When I look at your user pages, I see a lot of interesting stuff...that is also duplicated. What's going on? Are you twins, appreciate each other, or just fellow travelers? Nothing wrong with any of that. It's just interesting. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 22:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't recall ever seeing this user before today. I do see that our user pages are substantively identical. My userpage was written by me, as you can see if you look at the page's edit history. It looks like he copy-pasted my userpage onto his. I'm flattered. Philomathes2357 (talk) 22:08, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." ― Oscar Wilde You must share some similar beliefs or ideals. That's cool. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 22:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Very true. I might have to add that to my list of thought-provoking quotes. Philomathes2357 (talk) 22:16, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * LOL, Valjean quoted me...quoting Oscar Wilde.... Irony. Ironcurtain2 (talk) 09:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Nobody has a patent on Wilde. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 18:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

People who own their POV
You do know that several of those people don't hide their anti-American and pro-Russian activities? See Useful Idiots (podcast), where they boldly co-opt the term "useful idiots" to describe themselves (no doubt a bit sarcastically/ironically/whatever). Putin has a number of such people considered his useful idiots who defend him, with Trump being the most notable. Note that some of his fellow travelers in this regard despise him and are not his fans or supporters. This is a case where the far-right meets the far-left. It's a horseshoe.

It's sad to see you consider an accurate description a BLP violation, but.... My preference is pro-democracy, anti-dictator, Russophobic, anti-war people who report the facts rather than Russian propaganda. To me, the transformation of VIPS, John Solomon, Greenwald, and Taibbi into anti-American, pro-Russian, anti-Ukraine apologists is so sad. Ironically, I share some of their other POV. Dana Rohrabacher has long been a russophile congress critter.

While I've got you "on the line", so to speak, I notice you've done some archiving work. I have a suggestion for a code to use. This one works really nice: It makes it easier to hop back and forth from archive to archive. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 16:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing your candid thoughts, and for not being too angry at me for deciding to remove what I sincerely thought was a BLP violation.
 * I think your comment gets to the heart of the reason why we've occasionally side-eyed one another with suspicion in various discussions. You're not going to like what I have to say about the topic, and perhaps you won't even read it, but please understand that I do not mean any of it as a personal attack. I think you're a good person who has, for ideological reasons, started to drift into some pretty harmful and ugly rhetoric. I implore you, if only for a brief moment, to hear me out, take a step back, and think about how your remarks may be perceived by others.
 * I am a proud American with Russian heritage who loves many things about American culture and Russian culture. I find your characterization of Russophobia as a good thing to be alarming, and I find your statement about "Russophile propagandists" disturbing, and only slightly less ugly than calling a BLM supporter a "Black-lover propagandist" or calling a critic of antisemitism a "Jew-lover propagandist". What's wrong with liking Russia, or Russians, or trying to understand their perspective on the world? Why is that out-of-bounds?
 * I can tell you, from extensive first-hand experience, that most Russian people wince, and feel sad or angry, when they read statements like yours, regardless of whether or not they support Putin. In fact, the perception (and reality) of anti-Russian racism creates a "rally around the flag" effect that increases support for Putin. "Putin might not be perfect, but the West hates us and regards our history, culture, and security concerns with sneering contempt, so we'll stick with Putin, because at least it seems like he cares about us, unlike the West, who would like to crush us and balkanize our country." - that is an extremely widely-held sentiment among Russians, and whether or not the purportedly "reliable sources" say so, the Russian people have very understandable reasons for feeling that way.
 * Have you ever wondered "what the hell is up with the recent proliferation of Russian propaganda? Why are propagandists like Scott Ritter becoming popular?" This is why: not because Ritter hates America, or because he is a Russian agent, but because he talks about the Russian people as his equals, worthy of respect, rather than with racist and chauvinistic overtones, and proposes that our two nations should find a way to live in peace and mutual respect, rather than continuing down the road of escalation, outdated, zero-sum Cold-War-era thinking, and nuclear brinksmanship. This resonates with Russians, and it resonates with Americans that hate death and war more than they hate Russia.
 * Somehow, his bold efforts to establish mutual respect and peace between our two nations translates in American corporate media to him being a "Russophilic propagandist" or "Putin fanboy". I wonder how that happens? Actually, I don't wonder - I know exactly how it happens. I know people that know Scott, by the way, and they all say the same thing: Scott loves America. He is fanatically pro-America. Because he loves his country, he doesn't want to watch America propagandize itself into yet another bloody, tragic, pointless war, like Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and so on. In my view, the people who smear him, encourage NATO to escalate militarily, rejoice when his passport is seized without a warrant, and try to silence him are the anti-Americans, not him.
 * On the other side of the coin, I know that Russians that advocate for peace with America/NATO are called "Imperalist-loving propagandists" and "spreaders of anti-Russian disinformation" in Russia. All of this is dangerous mal-information that is going to get a lot of people killed unless cooler heads prevail and say "enough". A lot of cool heads are saying "enough", but goof-ball hacks in the corporate press call them all "propagandists", which is the height of irony.
 * It's possible that there are journalists out there who are, literally, "Jew-lover propagandists". But I think you would agree that describing them as such is (and should be) completely out-of-bounds in sober, civilized discourse. If a source said "Jew-lover propagandist", you would not write that phrase in Wikivoice - you would take a big step back and reconsider the reliability of the source. We should do the same, in my view, for other ethnic groups, like Mexicans, Americans, Israelis, or Russians. Russophobia is the only group-oriented "phobia" that is socially acceptable in America - Jew-phobia, transphobia, homophobia, and other forms of prejudice are being stamped out of existence, on Wikipedia and in society generally, and I hope and pray that the same thing happens to Russophobia, preferably before our so-called "leaders" drag us into a full-fledged shooting war in Europe that will kill millions of people.
 * I know you're a decent person and, based on the political opinions you've shared on-Wiki, I can tell that you are not a racist. You are an anti-racist, if anything, in the domestic American context. I think you may be so deeply invested in the"#TheResistance" worldview, an idiosyncratic, reactionary ideology that developed within American liberalism in the mid-2010s, that you're somewhat oblivious to how your statements sound to people not in your information bubble. I can't help but wonder what your media diet is, and who you surround yourself with, such that your statements about Russia, Russians, and those who have respect for Russia seem reasonable and objective to you, while they seem so outrageous, hurtful, and counterproductive to me.
 * I also wonder how you can unironically accuse good-faith critics of American foreign policy of being engaged in "anti-American activities". That is what people are talking about when they talk about "neo-McCarthyism", which is very real and very dangerous. I think that criticizing the government is both a right and a duty for American citizens, and it is one of the most patriotic, pro-America things you can possibly do. People who criticize the government are pro-American - those who try to silence or smear those critics are anti-American.
 * I'm not sure if your comment was an invitation for a longer dialogue, but if it was, I'm all for it, publicly or privately, whichever you prefer. If not, you've shared your opinion, I've shared mine, and that will hopefully allow us to edit together in a more sympathetic, good-faith manner in the future.
 * Anyway, in terms of the archive code...that is awesome. I didn't know about that, but I will implement it. Thank you for sharing that piece of info. Philomathes2357 (talk) 21:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I must start with a huge apology for creating such feelings in you. When I say Russophile, I am referring to being a Putin lover and supporter. My Russophobia is purely against him, not the Russian people, ethnic groups, or country. None of what I have said applies to them. Russia is a great nation, a wonderful history, with an enormous cultural footprint in the world.
 * My skepticism is purely against Putin, his intelligence agencies, his propaganda apparatus, his corruption, and his military ambitions in the world. His goal of recreating the Eastern Bloc and regaining control of all the formerly Eastern Bloc nations in the Soviet Union is a scary goal we must oppose. Ukraine is just a beginning. He will not stop. I've been in Poland and Lithuania, and they are scared of Russia Putin. (Do you see what I did there? ) The KGB prison in Vilnius makes one understand why those nations fear Russia and Putin.
 * As a progressive, registered Independent, and believer in social justice who aligns with Scandinavian Social Democracy, I consider it a patriotic duty to criticize one's own nation's failings, and in that regard, I move even further left than my normal slightly left-wing stance. If you want to get a real wake-up call to the failings of America, read (or even better see) American Pictures by Jacob Holdt. The first time I saw it in Copenhagen, with him as a narrator, I was shocked and blown away. I had a naive understanding of my own country. Living in Europe changed that. I have since gotten the book again. (My original Danish copy was burned in the fire.) I am not a conservative, and I consider criticisms of my country's failings to be a patriotic duty, but that does not include lending support and defense to Putin in his attacks on America. I do not deny or cover it up, as Trump does (and the people I have mentioned). He cannot allow himself to think that he would not have won without the support of Putin's military intelligence and social media disinformation campaigns, but that's what happened. Jimmy Carter and all U.S. intelligence leaders say that. I am not about to become one of Putin's useful idiots. Denying the Russian interference is treasonous business for an American, in the sense that it was/is a military attack on America (GSU is military intelligence), and treason is defined as giving aid to a military attacker. One can love the Russian people and oppose Putin at the same time.
 * My feelings about Russia and its people are summed up well in Billy Joel's song "Leningrad". Watch it here. It's a tear-jerker for me. I don't normally talk about Russia. When I speak about it politically, it's about Putin's attacks on American democracy. Otherwise, I love the music of its great composers and musicians. Also, I would not write strong epithets in wikivoice. I'd quote and attribute them. My media diet is huge and broad. I love NPR and PBS. I read many sources of news and all the major channels. I do check Fox News to keep an eye on how they are (and often are not) reporting the news. I need to get to bed. Take care. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 06:09, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Philomathes2357, you have not responded. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 19:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. I look forward to responding to you, but I am having some health problems right now and will have to step back from editing until they are resolved. Philomathes2357 (talk) 21:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Too Long Didn't read TLDR (Philomathes2357 response)

Regarding Russia, the vast majority of Russians support Vladimir Putin. Even those organizations that have been deemed foreign agents (like RT.com was designated in the USA) acknowledge that Putin's support is in the 70 of 80%. You can say this is because of the media, or you could study the history of Russia, and the history of NATO expansion. The question that I have for you, Valjean, is which country, statistically, since the end of the Cold War, in 1991, has killed more people then any other country? It is not Russia, and it is not China.

Regarding: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

@ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bobfrombrockley#Veteran_Intelligence_Professionals_for_Sanity

@Valjean

Is liberal media useful idiots of Joe Biden?

User:Bobfrombrockley ask if you feel that any of the members of VIPS are reliable.... Is the answer no?

For the record, I know that the late Yevgeny Prigozhin. Internet Research Agency was involved in the election of 2016. It is obvious.

Foreign governments interfere in elections all the time. Statistically, the United States has done it much, much more than Russia or the USSR, most notably with Yeltsin in 1996. Does it make the Russian interference justified? I will let you decide....

I have stated something outside of VIPS talking points, can you acknowledge anything outside of the Joe Biden administration talking points sir ma'am?useful idiots of Joe Biden?

Again, to me it comes down to how many people each country has killed. Which country has killed more people then any other country since 1991? Ironcurtain2 (talk) 08:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * update, I read your comments Philomathes2357. You write like a Russian, long, long long, but very well written.
 * This is the most profound thing you said in a very very well written retort:
 * "I can tell you, from extensive first-hand experience, that most Russian people wince, and feel sad or angry, when they read statements like yours, regardless of whether or not they support Putin. In fact, the perception (and reality) of anti-Russian racism creates a "rally around the flag" effect that increases support for Putin. "Putin might not be perfect, but the West hates us and regards our history, culture, and security concerns with sneering contempt, so we'll stick with Putin, because at least it seems like he cares about us, unlike the West, who would like to crush us and balkanize our country." - that is an extremely widely-held sentiment among Russians, and whether or not the purportedly "reliable sources" say so, the Russian people have very understandable reasons for feeling that way."
 * I have no Russian roots, I just see the number of deaths that one country has caused, and I cannot be silent anymore.
 * "The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government." ---Martin Luther King, Jr. An anti-military speech that MLK gave, exactly one year before he was assassinated.  (On the flip side, Joseph McCarthy was supported 100% until he started to go against the Congressional Military Industrial Complex) Ironcurtain2 (talk) 09:03, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure of how your points are relevant to article content, but "what country has killed more people than any other country" is not relevant for editing this. Biden has no control over the media. Stick to the topic(s) in the article(s) you are editing. BTW, there may well be an article here that answers your question about deaths. Don't think that I am defending needless and excessive loss of life (such as what's happening in Israel) or what Bush, Cheney, and the American military industrial complex did in Iraq, or what happened in Vietnam. I just happen to value personal freedom and human rights, a free press, and oppose dictatorships, but that's just my POV and preference in real life and is not directly relevant to my editing. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 18:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course "what country has killed more people than any other country" is relevant, we are talking about Ukraine, Libya, Syria, etc. The "blob", the "deep state", the congressional military industrial complex,  etc. - what people on the left once all acknowledged (1975 Church Committee) never changes.
 * Yesterday, June 18, 2024 Tucker Carlson interviewed Glenn Greenwald who helped break the Edward Snowden story. Listen to those 2 talk about the US political left, the right, and "freedom of speech" in America today.
 * "Biden has no control over the media." - of course the Biden administration controls most of the mainstream media, and social media also. Just as the late Trump administration did also, when he assigned "Mike Pompeo", Mr. "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole...we had entire training courses." and  Mr. Mustache (not the most famous one), John Bolton, who loves war like most men like women, to the administration.
 * You brought up Iraq, let's talk about Biden and how he fully supported the Iraq War, and how he called Scott Ritter, “ol' Scotty boy” in congressional testimony. The only difference between Trump and Biden, was Biden came into office a war criminal already.
 * Ukraine: Biden's Victoria Nuland, who thankfully retired in disgrace a couple of months ago. She is married to a NeoConservative, which has infested both parties now. Have you listened to the full leaked audio of what Victoria Nuland said in 2014? (probably leaked by Russians), Nuland  handpicked the next president, Poroshenko.  It was a couple of days before the 2014 coup of Kiev, when the democratically elected leader of the country, Yanukovych  (was Yanukovych corrupt, yes; was handpicked US Poroshenko corrupt, yes; is Zelensky corrupt, yes) was overthrown in a violent coup d'état. For those who are reading this, keep in mind that Biden was Obama's vice president in 2014.
 * The 2014 Ukraine coup, is a more violent form of what is called The Shock Doctrine, first done with Chile in 1973 with Kissinger and Nixon.  The Shock Doctrine was done in numerous countries, including Russia in 1991, and attempted again in 2022, and starting with China with the Trump administration. It continues with Biden today.
 * Putin, in a very important Friday June 14, 2014 speech, shared a conversation he had with Obama in 2014. Putin made an agreement with Obama to have the Russian military step down, if Obama would agree to stop the protests. Putin kept his side of the agreement, the Obama administration responded with a coup and overthrow.  Have you watched the February 3, 2024 interview with Putin and Tucker Carlson, skip past the first 32 minutes of history, and watch as Putin shares conversations he has had with American leaders. It is shocking what he reveals. (Tucker Carlson's domestic policy, like Trumps, is abhorrent)
 * I won't even get into the Minsk agreements agreements, and how former Ukraine president Poroshenko, Germany's Merkl and one other leader admitted they never planned to follow those agreements. They were only used the Minsk agreements to build arms against Ukraine. The March 2022 negotiations between Ukraine and Russia in Turkey?  Scuttled by UK Boris Johnson.
 * I really don't know how much you know about all of these facts, so I apologize beforehand if you are already aware of these historic mile markers. If your primary source of news is collective Western media, you probably are not aware of these facts.
 * "I just happen to value personal freedom and human rights, a free press" - Ukraine's Zelensky and Poroshenko, wow, I could write paragraphs about how these 2 "support" free speech. There is currently a kill list for Americans, which Scott Ritter is on, and many journalists, which, since the American government is paying the salaries of the government, the US government sponsors...Never forget Gonzalo Lira.
 * ....And American free speech.   If you talk badly about Israel in the media, you will be fired, so many incredible people have gone up against the congressional military industrial complex and lost everything.  If you do not support LGBT views, in your workplace in the USA, you will be fired and ostracized. That is free speech?
 * ""what country has killed more people than any other country" Today is juneteenth.  How many Africans has the biden administration killed, Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton... Again, since 1991, what country has killed more people then any other country?
 * sigh, @User:Valjean starting yet another edit war on Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, this is my surprised face. :-|
 * Ironcurtain2 (talk) 20:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You need to stop using talk pages like social media. Minor comments are generally accepted, but screeds like this aren't. Get back to editing, and base everything from reliable sources. The Grayzone is deprecated, and VIPS is unreliable. Don't even mention Greenwald and Tucker Carlson if you want to maintain any credibility. Carlson knew Trump, Giuliani, and Lindell were pushing BS about election fraud, secretly did not agree with them, secretly knew that Biden won the election fair and square, yet he kept pushing those lies, the ones that cost Fox News $787.5 million. Get back to editing. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 20:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Meta-POVs and post-truth
So, re to this:, I disagree, mainly because I think you're implying that WP:NPOV needs to define facts and opinions. I don't think that's possible in a neutral way because sources disagree on how to delineate facts and opinions. The ultimate goal of WP:NPOV is so our readers are presented with a balanced product that reflects the main perspectives on different issues. That makes us more trustworthy since we are upfront about what is and isn't a matter of broad agreement.

The flip side is we need to exclude WP:FRINGE perspectives because otherwise everything would be disputed, and our articles would be unreadable. This is a pragmatic concern because of attention spans and the linear nature of an individual article; ideally we want to include as many views as possible.

Assuming the above, we need a way to define what "meta-POVs" are, we need to create boundaries for when we should exclude them, and we need a way to cover different ones in articles. As an example, I think Baudrillard's view that The Gulf War Did Not Take Place would be a fringe meta-POV in the Gulf War article since his definition of war as being dependent on the viewpoint of the observer is not very widely held. Imagine trying to write that article without using the term "war" in wikivoice because of one philosopher's take. The overwhelming consensus is that the Gulf War was a war, not that most people believe there was a war.

On the other hand, on an article such as trans woman, we might want to concisely convey that there a dispute between and. That's why we have a meta-POV issue, because the current WP:NPOV policy doesn't cover that beyond saying to treat everything as an opinion, which really just endorses. Endorsing the second in wikivoice would fail to convey that many people in the medical community see trans women being women as a biological fact.

In the examples you provide on the NPOV talk page, you give Al-Qaeda being called terrorists as an example. The article currently says the organization is designated as a terrorist group by NATO, the UN Security Council, the European Union, and various countries around the world. This avoids the meta-POV issue on the definition of terrorism, since you say yourself that the act of labelling a group with the term "terrorist" does not actually convey whether one considers that label to be an opinion or an objective fact. Wordings that wouldn't convey this would be (asserts factual statement) or  (which describes NATO's views as an opinion).

I don't really have answers for this. I believe any successful policy change should codify generally understood consensus, so I think looking at controversial articles where people generally agree Wikipedia handled this issue correctly can provide insight into rules for dealing with meta-POVs. An essay could be a good place to workshop this. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 06:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Grayzone
Ohhh, Philomathes. I'm not going to revert you but the Grayzone sits atop dangerous, shaky waters. I prefer to see you climb to the top of the sail than sink into the deep blue ocean ;) Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 06:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


 * What do you mean? Philomathes2357 (talk) 06:19, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Just saying that the Grayzone is subject to heavy sanctions. It’s best to edit it carefully. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 06:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC)