User talk:PhnomPencil/Archive1

(Welcome messages)
No comprendo el ingles, uso el traductor de google para tratar de comprenderlo, pero me he dado cuenta que has estado traduciendo artículo de geografía del estado de Veracruz, México, sobre todo de Tres Valles, Veracruz si necesitas algo, ayuda, modificar las imágenes con títulos o textos en ingles, pueden comunicarte conmigo, de preferencia a mi página de discusión en la wikipedia en español (es.wikipedia.org), espero que comprendas mi español, de hecho yo he redactado gran parte del artículo en español.--CarlosZE (Send me a message) 06:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Welcome...

Hello, PhnomPencil, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like this place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
 * Introduction
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! Crusoe8181 (talk) 10:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Indians districts
Hello, precisely what guidelines have we established to determine which Indian districts are of high, low or mid importance? (Crusoe8181 (talk) 12:26, 17 September 2011 (UTC)).

Hi, Crusoe! Thank you for the question. These are the guidelines I have listed (includes top). [] Is this fine with you? This project has been ongoing for over five years, and the far majority of articles remain unassessed for importance. I thought I would take the initiative to assess them based upon set perimeters. The most important thing, I believe, is that these perimeters are based upon something that can be easily agreed upon, and population size was the most obvious answer. Once I finish listing importance I will move on to creating standardized infoboxes for each district; many lack any at all. The "Indian Districts" Wikipedia pages lack standardization, and I consider this a (minor) first step on fixing this problem. What are your thoughts?

PhnomPencil (talk) 12:42, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I would have thought all Indian districts should be ranked equally in the context of Wikipedia as a whole, mid would seem to be reasonable. The project tags are not of great importance; the sorry state of many of the articles are of more importance. Best to spend your time on something constructive, the provisional population figures (with reference) would be a good start, removing the rubbish on the articles would be another. My main concern was that you were wasting your time on something of no real use. Cheers (Crusoe8181 (talk) 10:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)).


 * Thanks Crusoe! It's only part of what I'm doing. I've recently started adding infoboxes, adding 2011 census information, sorting out subsections, etc. When you look at a state's districts, for example, it's normal to see one infobox used for half of them, one for the other half. Going through the districts and marking importance is a way for me to scope out what the whole project looks like. Which, as you've mentioned, isn't pretty. We'll get there. Give it a decade. Or two. PhnomPencil (talk) 10:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

A pie for you!

 * Thanks Mr. Lynch... I appreciate the gesture. How'd you know I was hungry?

Still a long way to go. The 2011 census information will really help us beef these up somewhat; seems that the government is presenting these figures really well so far. PhnomPencil (talk) 19:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, definitely. If you need guidance on this, do contact User:Tinucherian. He's been very active in creating the Indian Geography articles.  Lynch 7  19:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Re: What am I doing wrong?
I have replied to your message here. — Ganeshk  ( talk ) 15:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Gonda district
Nice work! Particularly like the section renames. Will adopt as standard if I come across other Indian districts in the Cleanup or deadend categories. Thanks again. Best wishes Haruth (talk) 08:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Haruth! Glad you got rid of a lot of the fluff. I want to, but am afraid that on some of these will be nothing left. Plus I know eventually I'm going to experience the wrath of these editors who have added all this uncited trivia. I was sorting before but became distracted; I'll get back to it. I think I've done Bihar, Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, and everything east, plus I started doing UP a while ago... I'll complete that state today.


 * Those guidelines were created a looong time ago when the workgroup was somewhat active. They look good to me... I changed "Origin of name" to "Etymology", and added "Health Services"... though that adds the risk of yet another list. "Politics" I've been putting into the "Recent History" section. Maybe they should have a separate section? I think almost everything nowadays is added from editors with a local interest, which is great but there's no standardization between the states. I'm trying to slowly change that, but 640 is a lot of articles (not counting a few districts created since the census was taken).


 * OK so once again it's great that you cleaned that district up. Feel free to continue doing so; if you're deleting unsourced material I'm 100% behind you if someone complains. And if you enjoy article scrubbing, as you obviously do, Indian districts are a real goldmine. Oh PS don't bother with the infoboxes; Indian Jurisdiction infoboxes are being phased out, and eventually I plan to add Infobox Settlement to everything so we can get a picture on the top right, but we need some more info first; for example I've found some of the geographic area stats are incorrect. Cheers, Haruth. PhnomPencil (talk) 08:57, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't envy you that task! :-) I try to avoid plunging in to too articles belonging to a single project these days (too often bitten in my early Wiki-days), for the very reasons you have outlined. I like the idea of smudging politics into recent history, though - can get a bit fraught otherwise... Will certainly look forward to the next district popping up in the cleanup selections, to help you out when I can.


 * Keep up the good work. Much respect Haruth (talk) 11:55, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Indian villages
My response. --Bhadani (talk) 14:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi PhnomPencil, I'm wondering about Lingthem and Lingdem. They share the same post code and are just one digit off each other in the geo code, so they might be some sort of twin villages. See also this site. Do you think we should put them on a single page and just redirect the individual names? De728631 (talk) 18:57, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm thanks for the message De... I'll look into it right now. That's an interesting website so I'm all excited now. Thanks! Freaked me out when it listed four tehsils instead of two like I've been writing about, but when I Googled one of those "missing tehsils" it only showed up on that site, so maybe they're using old information. Give me a couple hours to finish up creating the last <10 villages so I'll have the district finished, and scope out that site, then I'll get back to you. I'm using official information, but perhaps the village was counted twice. Cheers, PhnomPencil (talk) 19:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Back... OK so the Ministry of Drinking Water and Sanitation explains it on this site. Lingthem Lingdem is the local gram panchayat, which includes three villages -- Lingthem, Lingdem, and Salim Pakel. Gram panchayats are the administrative division between subdistrict and village, but they're currently not being covered by WP:India (subdistrict articles exist for some states and for the rest are being created, slowly, by me... working on maps now). People are only writing about villages, which is why I chose to create these articles on villages in the district. Now, North Sikkim is complete. I've read that gram panchyats are quite fluid and change boundaries often, similar to local electoral districts, so this might explain the "skip" we've seen in article hierarchy here; makes sense to me. There are over 200 000 gram panchyats; it would be too much of a headache for a small group of people to look over. Villages are more permanent.


 * Anyhow, like usual I'm rambling. Lingthem Lingdem is the gram panchyat; Lingthem and Lingdem are separate villages. They may be nearby, but they are two distinct villages and since those articles are on villages only, I'd like to avoid a merge. Thanks for your interest, de. PhnomPencil (talk) 20:18, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, alright, thanks for looking that up. In that case I agree that we should keep them separated. De728631 (talk) 21:53, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Excellent work
Great job on the clickable Liberia county map! It greatly improves the Liberia and Counties of Liberia articles. Keep up the good work. Cheers! Idaltu (talk) 09:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Batavia
Hi there. Could you please link Batavia to Jakarta rather than "Jakarta Old Town", which is not particularly accurate. thanks --Merbabu (talk) 20:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Selamat, Merbabu. Yeah I'll take care of it in the morning. You can see where I'm coming from though, right? Kota is the original planned city of Batavia, so when referencing Batavia in the earlier years it's the most accurate, whereas it spread far beyond the walls later on. I can see from your user page you're an expert on Indonesian history, so give me a year after which the links should be changed and I'll go over them with the intent of giving the readers the most accurate links possible.


 * Cheers, Merbabu. PhnomPencil (talk) 21:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Javanese
many thanks. :-) --Merbabu (talk) 07:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey, cheers, Merbabu. There's a number of people going through the disambiguation links, but I'm pretty sure I'm the only one based in Asia so that's what I'm focusing on now.


 * Dreaming of mee goreng right now,


 * PhnomPencil (talk) 07:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to confuse you, with regards to this edit, the Javanese are not the dominant group of the whole island of Java - they come from Central Java and East Java. Whereas, West Java is actually the home of the Sundanese people and they speak Sundanese language. Accordingly, "Javanese" is refers to the people and language of Central and East Java, while the word Javan is a term that is used for something that relates to the island as a whole (and is usually reserved for biology - i.e., Javan Rhino. In most cases, Javanese is going to be the word you need rather than Sundanese or Java/n. I will double check a few of your edits - and if I've confused you, let me know. Nice work. --Merbabu (talk) 07:42, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah good point; when I first learned that I was surprised as I'd always figured Jakarta was in a Javanese-speaking region. I'll look it over now... I think all those can actually be changed to "Javanese culture" which currently redirects to "Javanese people" but may one day be a separate article. PhnomPencil (talk) 07:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Done. AWB rocks; I just put my last forty edits on the page list and typed "Java" in the disambiguation tool. Thanks again, PhnomPencil (talk) 07:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Talkback
 Lynch 7  16:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you
Haruth (talk) 17:15, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Buster Keaton
Hi. Thanks for the repair of that ref. in the article. It is much appreciated. Although I can't be sure I did that, I probably did since I originally added those Richard Lewis lines to the section. Good catch either way. Djathink imacowboy  10:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks Cowboy! Don't worry if you're responsible... I know I've been; that's how I ended up joining the DAB project. Pretty sure there's talk about creating a bot which will alert editors if they've sent users to a disambiguation page; if approved we won't have to worry about this in the future.


 * OK bye for now... thanks for helping that article, BTW. He's one of my favourites! PhnomPencil (talk) 10:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Ohhhh bay-bee. Yep, a picture of a caffeinated beverage does a pretty good job of summing up my work here. Thanks so much, Daylon, and have a great morning/afternoon/evening/night. PhnomPencil (talk) 17:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Ha! As Haruth said, barnstars are like buses; you wait a long time, then they all come together. This has got to be a record, though. Thanks a lot 虞海... BTW that was copy-pasted. I tried once to learn Chinese script, and gave up after a few hundred. Now I can remember 一二三... something something. The unicode must be tough, too. But after you get the hang of it, I guess you would be able to type words extremely fast. OK stay cool 虞海, PhnomPencil (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Aleskey Orlov
Welcome to Wikipedia. Please be aware of Wikipedia's policy that biographical information about living persons must not include unsupported or inaccurate statements. Whenever you add possibly controversial statements about a living person to an article or any other Wikipedia page, as you did to Aleksey Maratovich Orlov, you must include proper sources. If you don't know how to cite a source, you may want to read Referencing for beginners for guidelines. Thank you. Abhijay  Let's have a chat, my friend.  02:17, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * How about not templating the regulars? — Ganeshk  ( talk ) 02:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Looking at the article history shows that the deleted line was actually added on August 27th by User:Stonepillar, an editor that has expanded that article. Perhaps a discussion on Stonepillar's talk page, or the article's talk page might have been a better choice. -Niceguyedc Go Huskies! 03:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys. (For those who don't want to go chasing links, on 1 November I changed the wikilink "Indonesia" to "Indonesian language" as the former is a disambiguation page.) The master got a similar message, for a similar action. Ambhijay deleted the sentence, then sent the form letter to who (s)he figured had written it, though the two of us weren't really involved. Careful, don't step on the gnomes or we'll bite your toes! PhnomPencil (talk) 08:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you for fixing the link on Mokama. Arunbandana (talk • contribs) 11:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No prob, it's what I love to do. Indian geography articles are really exciting; with the census info coming out, I think it'll be one of the big growth areas over the next few years. Cheers, Arunbandana. PhnomPencil (talk) 11:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

hay
Hello — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.40.143 (talk) 01:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yo. Get a username and join us. PhnomPencil (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Pleonasm eh?
That is a new word for me. I like it. But if you are considering a career in the law, I advise you to cease and desist. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha, quite the cunning linguist you are. Almost went to law school, but ended up teaching academic English to university students. I just couldn't handle that phrase. PhnomPencil (talk) 15:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Now I keep thinking of pleonasms. You are absolutely right to remove them, of course. WP language should be as clear and simple as possible for accessibility by non-English readers. Thanks for the smile. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I thought I had retired from editing for the evening, and was enjoying a nice read, when WHAM! there it was, staring at me. And there are thousands of occurrences, my friend. Perhaps no one has been looking for these because, while there are plenty of users who have "adopted a typo", grammar is seen as too complex for a simple "find and replace" job.


 * Great userpage, BTW. One of the best I've seen -- the image reminds me of home. PhnomPencil (talk) 16:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I question whether the use of "...various different..." is, in fact, pleonasm, or "incorrect" or unhelpful in any way. "Various" and "different" do not necessarily have the same meaning.  I think I'll raise it at Reference desk/Language.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * PS: In particular, please make sure that you don't change direct quotes, as you did here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * D'oh I'm really sorry about changing that quote. I usually catch myself; every sentence changed is overlooked. I'm unsure how that slipped by me, but I'll use greater rigor from now on. I'll be back soon to argue the case for the changes. PhnomPencil (talk) 10:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem. I think I'll only join in any discussion on this if others make the first move - I'm sure that 99% of the changes you're making are justified.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for keeping a vigilant eye on these pages, Ghmytle. Once again, I'm sorry about changing that quote; after writing this comment I'll head over to WP:AWB because I remember seeing some talk about skipping anything in quotation marks.
 * I won't mention the plethora of blogs touching upon the subject, but [|here]'s the Canadian government style guide. More importantly, Webster's Dictionary of English Usage notes two criticisms of the usage. The first -- that it's redundant -- is actually pushed aside, with the writers stating that these critics don't take into account that "various" has multiple definitions, with the definition "a number of" being completely separate from "different". I obviously disagree, and hold that the example I'm going to use below proves that the usage of "various" to mean "a number of" keeps the implied "different" definition. In fact this relates to the second criticism Webster's raises, which states that some believe that "various" should not be used to replace "a number of" (or, specifically, "an indefinite number greater than one".) This criticism is wrong, obviously.


 * The dictionary continues: "Even so, you may wish to stay clear of "various redundant". Its meaning notwithstanding, it has the appearance of redundancy, and our evidence shows that it rarely occurs in edited prose."


 * So Webster's brushes aside the "redundancy" argument. This is why I think they were too quick to do so: we would use "various different" to differentiate from anything that's not various and different. Anything which is not different is identical. However, saying "various identical", with "various" meaning "a number of", sounds strange to our ears... "There are various identical plates on the table," for example... because, while perhaps the scholars have decided that the meaning of "various" as "a number of" is completely separate from "various" as "different", that's not the way our minds have decided upon the definition: "different" is implied within this definition of "various". And in the study of language, when faced with a disconnect between how a language is used and how it is described, when basically 100% of native users have an internal definition, it's the scholarly description which is wrong (Note that I'm more of a prescriptivist than a descriptivist... if "various identical" showed more than a total of zero results on a Wikipedia search I would have a different opinion).


 * Anyhow, even if you disagree with my reasoning above, Webster's does advise to steer clear of the usage. I consider "various" to do as good a job as "various different", because I'm a fan of density, but I think from now on I will change "various different" with "a number of different"... is that fine with you? I really don't think the changes I made before need to be changed, though. PhnomPencil (talk) 11:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I think I'm happy to leave it to your judg(e)ment - unless I come across something specific that I think is infelicitous. At least you made me check the meaning of "pleonasm"!  By the way, the Canadian link you gave above doesn't work for me, and I suspect in your third paragraph you mean to say "various different" not "....redundant", don't you?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha yes I did. Hope it doesn't expose a bias. ;) PhnomPencil (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fowler defines five types of pleonasm: deliberate use for rhetorical effect, stale phrases, unconscious repetition, haziness and manifest nonsense. He allows the first if it achieves its effect and the occasion is worthy of it, but is otherwise against pleonasm in any shape or form. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I looked it up there, too. Was a bit disappointed when it wasn't mentioned. ;) I'm going to stop using the word though... partly because academia is divided on whether this specific phrase belongs to that category, and partly because I keep reading it as "neoplasm." PhnomPencil (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It is in the second edition, so I suppose added by Gowers. I wonder if there are any pleonastic spoonerisms? Enough of this nonsense. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant a specific entry on the phrase. Thanks for chiming in with Fowler's opinion. Such a great book. PhnomPencil (talk) 11:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Afghani?
I love your work ('till yesterday, I sat in my safe haven, totally unaware of pleonasm), but your change of "Afghani" to "Afghan" in the Time Tunnel article seemed a bit pedantic. A quick Google search yielded results like:

Noun:

1.	afghani - the basic unit of money in Afghanistan

2.	Afghani - an Iranian language spoken in Afghanistan and Pakistan; the official language of Afghanistan

Adj:

1.	Afghani - of or relating to or characteristic of Afghanistan or its people

I didn't revert your edit. &mdash; UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 14:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, UncleBubba. It's good you've asked -- just like we have peer reviews for GAs, I think it's appropriate to hold editors to standards if they're making across-the-board changes.


 * I'm not sure which dictionary you're using... but the Oxford Dictionary online gives only one definition for Afghani, and includes "Of or relating to Afghanistan" under Afghan. The Merriam - Webster only has one entry for Afghani -- as a noun -- and it directs people to the money table (Warning: Clicking that link starts a video) Afghan includes the demonym, but I can't find the adjective form there... not sure why. The best resource, though, are these three articles written on Slate:   . I'm going to be bad and steal a quote from the articles:


 * People who live in Afghanistan are not "Afghanis," but Afghans. "Afghani" is an apparent conflation of "Afghan" with "Pakistani" and reflects the general tendency to confuse Afghanistan with Pakistan. It's conceivable that people who say "Afghani" are trying to steer clear of the term "Afghan" because it makes them think of a wool coverlet or a large dog, associations that they fear may give offense. Nonetheless, "Afghan" is the correct term.


 * As for our own "official" line, Wikipedia's own article on Afghani provides the definition: A grammatically incorrect hyper-correction for Afghan (something of, from, or related to Afghanistan) -- and this includes a reference, possibly the only one I've seen in a disambiguation page. Wiktionary states: A citizen or native of Afghanistan. From an Afghan point of view this name is wrongly being used for Afghans. After the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan millions of Afghans took refuge in neighboring Pakistan. The Pakistanis and the international aid agencies coined this word to speak of Pakistanis versus the Afghans. However, this does not provide a reference.


 * I think, however, it's pretty clear that "Afghani" is being used because "Afghan" reminds us of that blanket our grandmother sewed for us when we were tykes, and "If it's Pakistani it's gotta be Afghani, right?"... A bit pedantic, I suppose (and if I really wanted to be pedantic I'd point out that using the word "demonym" in my edits wasn't always correct) but hey, it's done now. This issue is fixed pretty much across the board... someone can do it again in another five years. ;)


 * PhnomPencil (talk) 15:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the excellent explanation of your rationale! I wasn't doing thorough research, just looking at some Google hits. I hadn't thought about the "Afghan" == "knit blanket" angle but it sounds reasonable. (I'm still trying to get the mental image of an "Afghan migration" out of my head, though.)


 * Some things in English drive me nuts, too. Why, for example, do I seem to hear more and more people say "a regime of healthy eating" rather than "a regimen of healthy eating"? I won't even start on the misuse of "Afrikaner" or "awesome".


 * We can't fix everything, though. I hope you didn't take what I wrote as much more than a friendly poke. I really love your work and think you're doing a great job--keep it up!


 * I am amazed you let me get away with "safe haven", however. ;-) &mdash; UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha... if I were completely comfortable with my English, I'd be writing articles. (That sentence is going to come back to haunt me, isn't it?) This recent spell of bit-by-bit copyediting is a result of five years of no internet, and teaching English at a small elite university as the only one without a postgraduate degree, with no quality bookstore in the country and only English Usage guides to re-read, over and over, so at least I would be the go-to guy in the department. Sad, I guess, but at least I developed some sort of expertise outside of stuff nobody wants to talk about. Everyone has something to add to Wikipedia; I guess this is the most specific skill I own which is in-demand... swore I'd never touch it again after throwing away that red pen. Och, what can ya do. PhnomPencil (talk) 19:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Wrong dab for complexity theory
You recently changed the ambiguous wikilinks on implicit graph and Patrick C. Fischer from complexity theory (disambiguation) to complex systems. Thanks for the work cleaning up problems like this, but in these two cases you chose the wrong disambiguator: it should have been computational complexity theory. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, I've got no excuse for this mistake. I thought that this complexity theory link would point to "complex systems", as it's what the majority of fields mean when they're talking about complexity theory, but computer science is a different story. Sorry; I swam out of my depths. I've been spending a lot of time on fixing DABs, but part of that time might actually be better spent contacting Wikiprojects and requesting assistance. There are quite a few people working on this, all with different interests (and I can't say for sure, but I think we've got a few polymaths), but there's no way that our combined knowledge can cover all specific fields. I saw that recently a senior member of the team contacted Wikiproject Birds to help with disambiguating a link to a group of swallows. We have quite a few links which no one will touch with a ten foot stick, particulary pages related to maths and computer sciences, and I should look into seeking help. If you're interested, here's the list of November DABs which have yet to be acted upon. Again, my apologies. PhnomPencil (talk) 17:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Why are you changing "and/or" to (insert the blank)?
Hello, and welcome to my talk page. I just started deleting "and/or" from Wikipedia and I know from the few edits made so far that some of my edits will prove controversial. I know it's atypical for an editor to write an explanation on his or her Talk Page before someone comes inquiring, but the chances are close to 100% that at least one of these edits will be questioned. So here you go.

By following the links from my edit summary, you've already seen what the Manual of Style has to say on the subject, and you've read our very own And/or article. I know the Manual of Style is only a guideline, but would like to point out that there is pretty much consensus in the copyediting world on the matter. New Fowler's (from my observations, a prescriptivist publication) states: "...and/or verges on the inelegant when used in general writing." Webster's (which many consider to be aligned with the descriptivists -- see Webster's III) states: "Most of the more recent criticism of and/or in our files is likewise aesthetic -- ugly is the usual epithet -- although a few consider it confusing or ambiguous, and a few (...) find it compact and convenient." They then go on to explain how judges have reached different confusions on the same laws, thanks to the ambiguity of and/or.

These are what the two most comprehensive English usage guides have to say on the matter (I won't look it up in The Elements of Style as I lack a spittoon nearby). A look at that, along with our own Manual of Style, makes me ask: if we can fix it, why don't we?

What to do?

Here's an example.

In Baja California, you can swim and/or sunbathe whenever you see fit.

Well, to be the most accurate we can be, let's use "X,Y, or both":

In Baja California you can swim, sunbathe, or both, whenever you see fit.

Or how about this: we can use or, alone, to take the place of and/or:

In Baja California you can swim or sunbathe whenever you see fit.

Out of the three, all have the same meaning. But one stands out as the most elegant prose, right?

So why wasn't the third example used in the first place, and why are we -- even those of us who are native English speakers -- averse to using "or" in this context? I think it's because somewhere back in elementary school, our teacher taught us that "and" is inclusive, and "or" is exclusive. "I'll have fries and a burger." That means you want both. "I'll have fries or a burger". Well, that means one or the other, but not both, right? So dear old teacher was right on that account, but through our drilling we've forgotten that there are actually two definitions: Open up Wiktionary and read the first definition. Note that it doesn't say only one of which... it says each of which. That's why, in Baja California, you can sunbathe and swim if you want... no problem! We've inserted "and/or" instead of "or" because we're hypercorrecting -- thinking to ourselves, "Wait.. "or means either one or the other". But nope (Chuck Testa), just as we understand the third example above as meaning one can either take a dip, or catch some rays, or both, our readers will understand it so when reading our (or rather, your, since I'm only doing a minor copyedit here) articles.

Sorry if it looks like I've rambled here, but because some of my edits are changing the very first sentence (ie the definitions) in important articles, I know it's important for the community to understand the rationale behind the switch. Some may consider it unimportant, and I understand as I used to feel the same way. But language is always evolving, and just as one man's contributions have echoed through the centuries to our generation, so will ours. We all know that our edits are infinite -- as educators, just like a classroom teacher, we will never know whom we've influenced nor how far. But it's not just function... it's form as well. We're influencing the English language, whether we consider it or not.

And that's why I care so much about a bloody slash.

PhnomPencil (talk) 17:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Barnstar
Hi PhnomPencil - thanks for the barnstar! A pleasant surprise on this dark and stormy night... Cheers. Maias (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Stormy? I'm jealous. "Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets" feels poignant in this dust-filled, dead-end town. PhnomPencil (talk) 13:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Not Phnom Penh? Last time I was there was pre Khmer Rouge. Many rains - and much blood - has flowed through the Tonle Sap since then... Maias (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Nah, even dustier than that place. Wow, you should come back! You wouldn't recognize it... the bridge over the Tonle Sap has been fixed! We've yet to see the Mekong spanned, though. PhnomPencil (talk) 13:48, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations
Hi, I want to congratulate you on your phnomenal performance last month on the DAB Challenge, and to thank you most sincerely for your great contributions to the Disambiguation project. I hope you'll keep up the good work! --R'n'B (call me Russ) 15:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Russ'n'B. The open-end nature of Wikipedia is fun, but a little bewildering. I enjoy being part of a project with a clearly set goal, which will eventually be reached (after which, fixing DABs will be a game of Whack-a-Mole). You folks have done a great job in setting it up, as well; it will serve as a good example for other backlog drives in the future.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 16:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Calicut
Hi. I noticed you have been going around changing "Calicut" to "History of Kozhikode". Could I ask you to refrain from doing so? References to Calicut should be to "Kozhikode", not "History of Kozhikode", so that readers can see immediately what city is being referred to. Once in the Kozhikode article, they can then go into the "History of Kozhikode", if they so desire, or go into a disambiguation page linked at the top. But Calicut = Kozhikode, directly translated, a city that still exists. Walrasiad (talk) 17:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK... but what if we're referring to Kozhikode as a city-state (or feudal kingdom), under the Zamorin? If we go to Sparta and search for Athens, we'll see there are some links to Classical Athens (or its redirect, Ancient Athens), and some to plain-old Athens. So there isn't consensus, I guess, on what should be linked there... but Classical Athens does seem like the appropriate choice, despite being the same city as the current capital of Greece. The reasoning behind linking to "History of Kozhikode" was that it's the most specific article dealing with the city-state (Zamorin wouldn't work because it deals with a title). Perhaps the best way to satisfy the both of us would be for me to link to Kozhikode (feudal kingdom) but as you can see the page doesn't exist. I can make it now, as a redirect, expecting that it will be written at one point. What should it redirect to, is the question. You would say "Kozhikode (city)", I would say "History of Kozhikode". I'm not exactly heavily invested in the issue though... so I'm willing to accede and make it a redirect to "Kozhikode (city)" as long as you agree to me linking to that redirect when appropriate.


 * I'll leave those links for now and restart once you give your assent. Cheers,  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 18:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Thank for replying. I sympathize with your purpose. With city-states its always going to be problematic and there's no happy solution. e.g. many articles that refer to, say, Venice in a historical context will link to Venice, rather than the Republic of Venice. But it's not always easy to disentangle the intention. If a phrase says, e.g. "in 1300, Marco Polo left Venice", does that mean Venice the city or Venice the republic? There is less harm done by leaving links to Venice to Venice (i.e. the city) than linking to the Republic of Venice and certainly not to a long, detailed article on the history of Venice. At least the city article gives a reader an immediate geographical reference, and the city article will refer to its old status as a republic, its brief history, and itself provide links to the more detailed pages, if the reader so desires. In other words, Venice (the city) should be the hub of Venice-related articles. Similarly for Calicut, the Kozhikode city page should be the hub, with the rest (History of Kozhikode, Zamorin, etc.) linking from there. After all, keep in mind that in the middle of an article on, say, a Portuguese armada sailing to Calicut, most people who click "Calicut" are probably just trying to find out where the location is (not everyone knows). Going instead to a heavy, detailed and dense history article is not immediately illuminating. I agree that some sort of "state" article for Calicut should probably be constructed, in a similar manner as there exists a "Republic of Venice" page. And if a writer intends to refer to the Zamorinate of Calicut (as opposed to the city), he can write that down himself and link it there. But I don't think we should be second-guessing ambiguities ("does that mean state or city?"). By default, just leave Calicut linked to Kozhikode. The reader can go from there if he wants more detail. Directing mentions of Calicut to "History of Kozhikode" is cumbersome, it is neither a state nor a city page, but a heavy essay-like article with densely written prose. It is not a suitable substitute for some sort of "Zamorinate of Calicut" state page. Calicut = Kozhikode the city should be the default. Walrasiad (talk) 19:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: One more point: this resolution is not between me and you alone. For such large changes, across dozens and dozens of pages, a wider discussion should be undertaken first and consensus reached. Walrasiad (talk) 19:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * OK Walrasiad, I appreciate your great reply. The reason I may come across as overly-defensive is that I'm worried here that people will see me as incompetent, when really it's just a matter of opinion (and it appears that I'm in the minority). If you look up on my talk page you'll see there was a similar issue brought up over Batavia. The expert (as you are an expert on this subject, as I can see from your userpages) was saying I should be linking to Jakarta, instead of.. well... you can see from that discussion. Similar issue, though. Like I've alluded to, if I were the reader, I would prefer clicking to the "History of Kozhikode" article. But no matter, your explanation does make sense, and I think there's a chance the links I prefer would fall under the "easter egg" guideline, as well. I've gotta say, part of my reasoning behind all this is that I just feel what would have been at one point considered a "city" would now be only considered a "village"... Kozhikode of that time is now only a minor neighbourhood of what is currently known as Kozhikode. I've been there, too, and there's almost nothing left from that time. Oddly enough, when I think about it, if this were over Cochin I'd be fine linking to the Kochi article.


 * And no I shouldn't have used the word "consensus". I don't think many people care about these minor links -- maybe just us -- but if we look at it from the standpoint of Athens, Venice, and the plethora of other cities vs city-states, deciding on the appropriate destination would be a major issue... and in the end would require a million-plus edits either way. Not in the mood to open that can'o'worms ;)  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 19:56, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Barnstar!!
Thanks! Love your user name by the way!!♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * Aha I went to your userpage and saw "Join WP:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas!!"... yep I must be plastered all over your watchlist. Cheers, Uyvsdi! One day I'd like to help get Mi'kmaq people up to GA status.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 21:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:North African Music


A tag has been placed on Template:North African Music requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

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Speedy deletion nomination of Template:East African Music


A tag has been placed on Template:East African Music requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

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If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by visiting the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you.  Claret Ash  08:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Southern African Music


A tag has been placed on Template:Southern African Music requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it must be substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes ( ).

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by visiting the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you.  Claret Ash  08:27, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Central African Music


A tag has been placed on Template:Central African Music requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it must be substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes ( ).

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by visiting the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you.  Claret Ash  08:27, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Would You like to Help?
Hi, I am starting WikiProject Ravidassia. I would like to get help from people who are interested. You may sign up for the project on the []. McKinseies (talk) 13:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 6
Hi. When you recently edited Public transport in Istanbul, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page IDO (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Oops... fixed.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 15:52, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Greetings!
Hi PhnomPencil, is there a way I can connect with you over email? I'm an admin on the English Wikipedia and I spent six months living and working in Cambodia last year. I'm interested in exploring the potential for community-building programs in the region. Please let me know if you are interested: anirudh [at] wikimedia [dot] in. — Nearly Headless Nick   {C}  20:31, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey there. I'd love to take part but left the country about a month ago... if I return I'll send you an email. Thanks for the message! You've reminded me that I should set up a Wikipedia-specific email account.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 15:55, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response! I hope you will set up a wp specific account and send me an email!  —  Nearly Headless Nick   {C}  05:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Great to see your picture from India. Which place is it? If you are in India presently, please consider visiting Gujarat. You will have a place to stay here. :) — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 19:16, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nick! Like your portrait too ;). This was in Orchha, MP. I very nearly went to that Wikiconference in Mumbai but was sidetracked... yeah I'm quite the Indophile. The fact that the subcontinent's got at least as intricate a history and wealth of cultures as Europe, but remains relatively unstudied, draws me in. Learning at the age of eleven that Kannada has more speakers than the population of Canada blew my young mind; John Keay's book "India: A History" sealed the deal. I'll be in India again in 2013, and will most likely head to Gujarat; it will be nice to meet a fellow Wikipedian.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 19:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

hi there
can u please tell me why the Jaunpur district article shouldn't be merged with Jaunpur, Uttar Pradesh Razredg (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Razredg (talk • contribs) 16:05, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The only reason a district and city (two levels of government) sharing the same name would be merged would be if they were coextensive. They are not. Sorry, I should have included this in my argument, I was just lazy. I just looked at your contributions and your edits so far are great, keep it up.  Phnom Pencil  talk  contribs 16:29, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Statesman
Hello PhnomPencil,

Would you please stop linking statesman to statesman?

The wikipedia page contains a definition, so there's no need for a link to Wiktionary. Mvdleeuw (talk) 07:08, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Keeping in mind the Wikipedia page is a disambiguation page, which are not meant to be linked to for their definitions, what's the solution then?  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 14:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ideally there should be a page statesman, to which the disambiguation page can link. But imho it should not be a link to anything else but wikipedia. Mvdleeuw (talk) 14:37, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really a reply to your second (important) point, but as for the first: Here's where the decision was made.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 14:43, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "The result was merge to Politician". So I suggest that statesman will be linked to ''Politician. Mvdleeuw (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Google book tool
Was just looking at the Group of Seven (artists) article and noticed your wonderful referencing using Google books. Was thinking you might like the Google book tool that fills in all for you - See {T} Wikipedia citation tool for Google Books. All the best my new friend.Moxy (talk) 07:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh didn't know this existed. Thanks, Moxy (and I received this message on 20 March FWIW).  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 01:14, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:South Asian Music


A tag has been placed on Template:South Asian Music requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it must be substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<tt> </tt>).

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by visiting the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you.  Claret Ash  13:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Southeast Asian Music


A tag has been placed on Template:Southeast Asian Music requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it must be substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<tt> </tt>).

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by visiting the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you.  Claret Ash  13:16, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Your help required for Mokama
As you are interested in the articles on the tehsils of India, I think you are the right person to help improve the article on Mokama. I had tried to include certain contents which were based on reliable references. But I find that some anonymous users are either making changes or adding contents which, according to me, are not based on facts. I do not want to involve myself directly in this as I think I would have a conflict of interest. Could I request you to have a look at the article and advise for the betterment of the article? Arunbandana (talk • contribs) 16:43, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Arunbandana. Why do you think you've got a conflict of interest?


 * Indian geography articles are rife with this type of editing... the rule is: any new information needs a source. It's not optional. If a fact doesn't include one, it can be deleted. Don't worry. (And props to you for adding the citations that you can find so far.)


 * What makes this section of the encyclopaedia like this? I think there's been such a surge of activity from the country that the more experienced editors are overwhelmed... it'll right itself over the years. Most important thing is not to scare away the new editors, because if we were to push two editors with the potential to make as many quality edits as us, our net effect here will be zero. I'll leave a welcome message on 117.230.181.49's talk page with a link to the reference generator; let's cross our fingers.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 19:08, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. conflict of interest would be due to the fact that I spent my childhood days at Mokama and I still have the roots of my family there. In spite of that I had tried to add the contents only to enrich the article with suitable references.

Now I find that personal bias or opinions are being expressed without any reliable citations. Anyway I can still delete that. Still I would value your opinion more in this case. Arunbandana (talk • contribs) 11:55, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well if you were shorting the municipality's bonds and only writing negative things about the government's finances it would be a COF, but you can write about things near and dear to you - it's not a problem. Aside from some of the top editors and WP:WikiGnomes I'm pretty sure that's all anyone edits. The policies and guidelines are here to help the Encyclopaedia... of course they're sometimes misused, but specifically using COF to stop someone from editing an article about their beloved hometown would never be successful. (I hope...)  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 15:36, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Geotagged articles in English Wikipedia
I saw this file on your User:PhnomPencil. It is indeed an eye opener. I also saw the blog further. Great work! Arunbandana (talk • contribs) 12:05, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Cheers... but just to be clear I didn't write that, I saw it on the WP:Signpost.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 15:36, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your recent edit to Never Mind the Buzzcocks
Your username made me laugh out loud. Well done -- Bobyllib (talk) 21:10, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Hm I saw that title and thought, "this can't be good... did the Buzzcocks dance bhangra?"
 * But haha yeah thanks. That's a result of our pub quiz team trying to think up the lamest name possible. Kind of rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 21:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Balochistan conflict
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Knowledge of Dipterocarpaceae
Hello, How are you? I need your help. I ask you if you could enlarge Dipterocarpaceae making better known this group of trees in Wikipedia, adding links to "Dipterocarpaceae" and information about  "Dipterocarpaceae" existence on topics as trees articles in tropical articles or botanical or biodiversity articles. Do you know people that could be interested about Dipterocarpaceae article? They are welcome too. Thank you very much. Curritocurrito (talk) 11:22, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll add that to the list of the million things I want to do.  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 11:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Murasaki Shikibu
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 * Mañana  Phnom Pencil  talk contribs 03:44, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

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July 2012 Study of authors of health-related Wikipedia pages
Dear Author/PhnomPencil

My name is Nuša Farič and I am a Health Psychology MSc student at the University College London (UCL). I am currently running a quantitative study entitled Who edits health-related Wikipedia pages and why? I am interested in the editorial experience of people who edit health-related Wikipedia pages. I am interested to learn more about the authors of health-related pages on Wikipedia and what motivations they have for doing so. I am currently contacting the authors of randomly selected articles and I noticed that someone at this address edited an article on implantable cardioverter-defibrillator. I would like to ask you a few questions about you and your experience of editing the above mentioned article and or other health-related articles. If you would like more information about the project, please visit my user page (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hydra_Rain) and if interested, please reply via my talk page or e-mail me on nusa.faric.11@ucl.ac.uk. Also, others interested in the study may contact me! If I do not hear back from you I will not contact this account again. Thank you very much in advance. Hydra Rain (talk) 12:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

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