User talk:PhotobloggerNYT

Welcome
ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Seth Sabal
On this edit of yours: an article on Seth Sabal has been deleted, so please don't add links to it. Thank you. -- Hoary (talk) 06:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Notability of Seth Sabal
A tag has been placed on Seth Sabal requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article, which appears to be about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content, does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable. If this is the first page that you have created, then you should read the guide to writing your first article.

If you think that you can assert the notability of the subject, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the article (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Wikipedia guidelines.

For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Jlhiowa (talk) 07:31, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Your appeal
Here's your appeal for retention of the Sabal article, which will soon be deleted. You may wish to recycle it elsewhere.

This article is very relevant to fashion photography section. He is noted as a top emerging "fashion" photographer by one of the most prestigious fashion magazines. You do not shoot for Vogue Magazine on any level foreign or domestic, if your not accepted across the board by Conde Nast. '''(The largest "Fashion" publishing house in the world) ''' He has 8 pages in Vogue Brazil this Month( Jan 09), 8Pages in Sept of 08. (Which is referenced and linked) Plus, Spanish Vogue. Come on this is not unbiased judgement which I would expect from Wiki. However I trust this process will work. And it will be review unbiasedly. :)

About me I am a fashion journalism freshman at NYU and this is my assignment to add a relevant fashion person to Wiki. This seems to be a personal issue if it's blocked. I see Mr. Sabal's images on covers, editorails and shooting top models on youtube. He is far more accredited than half of the people on the current fashion photography section; if not more than half.

Being published in Vogue Magazine internationally and having shot most of the top supermodels for very notable fashion clients is far more than half the section already accepted by Wiki. His charity acts, and his personal life seem to make him a very interesting and notable personality and relevant to the section. (However, I am willing to leave out the personal stuff because it doesnt matter somuch even though the references are fashion people.)

Had I not found the Vogue and Surface Magazine references, the videos on youtube shooting a top Victoria's Secrets Angel- I would pass and not spend the time. I dissagree completly with deleting a Vogue photographer from this section, if anything based on the fashion photography section, all these music video directors and foreign portrait photographers should be eliminated instead of a full fleged fashion photographer, with notable "fashion clients, magazines and "Supermodels".

Please let me know how to proceed.

Sarah :)

Article
I'm about to delete Seth Sabal, as an improper recreation of an article properly deleted. I'm copying it here, where you may work on improving it, if you want to take the matter to "WP:DRV". -- Hoary (talk) 08:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Want the Sabal article undeleted?
On this edit of yours: No, it won't work. Please read up on the relevant Wikipedia policies and take the matter to to "WP:DRV".

Incidentally, in the state in which I deleted it, your article on Sabal gave two sources for the claim that he had won an award from a magazine. As the computer I'm using now doesn't have Flash installed, I couldn't verify one of the pair. The other one was a blog in which various writers gushed their praise for Sabal but that did not say he had won any award. So if you want an article posted, you'd better do some more work on the assertions that it makes. -- Hoary (talk) 08:52, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I have updated that link to PhotoPop another Link that states Seth is a winner in the Avant Guardian Issue, Since Flash is a industry standard, I would figure that you should view the Surface Magazine Webpage which lists the Avant Guardians before you delete my entry, or perhaps reference the http://www.surfacemag.com link to one of your friends. I worked very hard to reference the best I could and never anticipated having to make sure that everyone had flash, never the less here is a link that states the Avant Guardian winners http://flash.popphoto.com/blog/2007/10/winners-of-avan.html

Can you please review my entry. Thank you, Sarah :)

Here is another http://www.splashlight.com/spl3/C.aspx?VP=XSpecific_SPL_Page_VPage&AlbumID=SPL1505


 * Please take the matter to "WP:DRV", as I said before.


 * In the meantime, two points. First, I was not complaining about the need for Flash (although Wikipedia generally avoids such links); I was merely saying that I could not read the page. Secondly, I looked at the first of the new links you give above. I quote from it: Avant Guardian, now in its 10th year, is a fashion photography competition open to any fashion photographer who has not had an editorial published. [...] Christian Anwander, Jamie Chung Lane Coder, Jing Quek, Luke Duval, Emir Eralp, Massimo Gammacurta, GL Wood, Scott Alger, Eric Guillemain, Reed + Rader, Seth Sabal, and Sarah Wilmer will appear in the Avant Guardian portfolio in the AVG issue. I infer from this first that Sabal is not the winner of this award but one of twelve winners (or thirteen, if Reed and Rader are two people), and secondly that it's an award for relative beginners. It's a respectable start, and I wish Sabal's career well, but it really doesn't seem all that noteworthy. -- Hoary (talk) 09:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

IN RESPONSE, "Notablity" Vogue
http://bestfashionphotography.com/tips-for-vogue-fashion-photography.html

I agree that the surface magazine avantguarian award is not extremely notable, that why it comes second to the Vogue contributor statement. I can remove the Surface Magazine credit and the Vogue contributer should carry the weight of notable "fashion photographer". Vogue's is very notable. Please note the photographers that won the avantguarian award in the last 10 years are that have crossover to Vogue are: Mario Sorrenti, Vanina Sorrenti,Craig McDean, and Terry Richardson, as stated on Surfaces webpage. (all who are on the fashion photographer section.) I also took into consderation the judges of the prize, the amount of entries. I do not deny the AvantGuarian award is by far the lesser of the notability, when sitting next to Vogue. Published in a Vogue editorial is the fashion photography benchmark! I choose this photographer in consensus with my group of 4 fashion journalism students from magazines that we have at our university library. I do not understand why it being blocked. Is it personal? If so, I need to know so that I can talk to my group and select another person. My instructor advised me that wiki does not work this way. I am at a total loss of words and confused on how to proceed. Thank you PhotobloggerNYT (talk) 20:08, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Documented Sources as requested in HTML
How do I appeal this deletion... I am investigating that now- This is now is clearly referenced in HTML based sites. The article establishes importance on many levels especially notability.


 * You appeal it at "WP:DRV". -- Hoary (talk) 09:59, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

"Seth sabal", small "s"
I see that you recreated the article as Seth sabal. Please stop this kind of thing. If you believe that Sabal merits an article, work on the draft in your sandbox, work on your appeal, and post that appeal to WP:DRV. Thank you. -- Hoary (talk) 10:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 10:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Straight into "DRV"
I've just looked at WP:DRV again and I read there:


 * Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question. This should be attempted first - courteously invite the admin to take a second look.

You'd normally do that before turning to "DRV" (if you're still keen to resurrect the article). Sorry for neglecting to mention this earlier.

I'm an "other editor", but since it was me who nominated the article for deletion I am not your best choice. The administrator you'd normally consult is Sam Blanning, because it was he who deleted the article. However, he's dropped out of editing. So I think it would be entirely proper to take the matter straight to DRV; if you do this, of course you'd be welcome to quote me as having advised you to do it. As for what you write, I suggest that you avoid criticizing other articles as being about people less notable than Sabal, and also avoid praising Sabal. Instead, just state the facts. In particular, if you


 * have some significant new information pertaining to the debate that was not available on Wikipedia during the debate

then you should certainly bring it up. Since you already have the draft of the article in your sandbox, you may wish to improve this and refer to it. -- Hoary (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Seth Sabal
Your article, Seth Sabal, has been undeleted by an admin. I am not an admin, but I would be happy to help you with any problems you have in formatting the article. If you don't mind, I will just fix a few copy editing issues. Let me know if you do not want me to do this. Regards, &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 21:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this would be wonderful!! PhotobloggerNYT (talk) 21:27, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I see it was deleted again, but I believe it will be undeleted soon. Apparently there was a misunderstanding. Let's see what happens. I saw enough of the article before it was deleted again to know it should not have been deleted. Regards, &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 21:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I looked for some good references for Seth Sabal but could not find any. He appears not to be notable enough to be included in Wikipedia at this time. Is there another photographer you would like to write about? Regards, &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 21:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I will look into another photographer now, thank you for your help! What do you suggest? I guess Vogue Magazine is not good enough, I am looking at three different editorials right in front of me. It really makes no sense to me, but I am so tired that I will look into another photographer. Thank you again, all the best Sarah :) PhotobloggerNYT (talk) 21:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you can find someone who has articles in reliable publications such a The New York Times or Vogue, or reputable fashion magazines. That is the key to notability. I am not familiar enough with the fashion industry to be able to suggest anyone. I will keep thinking! Regards, &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 22:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The draft of the article on Sabal is in User:PhotobloggerNYT/Sandbox, and, as I have already said to PhotobloggerNYT/Sarah, she is welcome both to improve the article and to appeal at WP:DRV for an OK to post the result at Seth Sabal. (She'd normally appeal first to the admin who closed the AfD, but he has retired. There's no obvious alternative to this admin. I don't think it's proper to shop around for an admin who seems likely to help. Better to post the matter at DRV and see what happens.)


 * Sarah, if you're keen to write an article on a present-day fashion photographer, not necessarily Sabal, then it might indeed be good to look in NYT. However, a photography magazine would be better. Find somebody who has been profiled or featured in an informative, non-promotional way, and base the article on that, supplemented by what you find in reliable sources (not blogs, message forums, wikis, the photographer's own site, etc) on the web. I'd avoid fashion magazines or the fashion pages of newspapers, because of their low signal-to-noise ratio and the degree of sheer hype. Don't buy photo magazines because they're mostly advertising and tiresome talk about toys for boys; instead, go to a good library and quickly look through six months' worth of Popular Photography or whatever. There are also yearbooks of photographers for advertising (as there are of design, illustration, etc), but typically these are (in encyclopedic terms) very uninformative: they show sample works (which are what potential clients want to see) and give contact information, but they say little else.


 * If it's at all possible you'd be better off writing about a retired (or dead) fashion photographer. The photographer would have then started to find a place in history (though of course his or her estimation might later change) and would (or could) be more likely to appear in substantive historical books that conveniently have indexes in the back. There'd be no risk that the photographer [let's suppose she's female] would be hyping herself on the web and elsewhere, and indeed it would be likely that there'd be little or nothing about her on the web, meaning that an article on her would not merely be a dehyped distillation of what's anyway available on the web via Google but instead a genuine addition to the sum of web information (as I hope are for example Sakae Tamura and Sakae Tamura, though neither of these shot fashion, as far as I know). -- Hoary (talk) 00:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of Wikipedia
Please do not place your comments in the text of articles. If you need assistance with an editing conflict, see Dispute resolution. Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 02:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

User:PhotobloggerNYT/Sandbox
User:PhotobloggerNYT/Sandbox is redirected to Transwiki log so I can't find your article. Anyway, you can appeal to Deletion review where you can appeal to have the article undeleted. You have to follow the directions there, which are rather hard to understand. Do you know who deleted your article? What admin did? I think maybe it was User talk:Wehwalt. You should contact him first.

Or you could go to the Help desk and ask for help. &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 02:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it wasn't Wehwalt; please see my user talk page for advice. -- Hoary (talk) 02:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * PhotobloggerNYT, the article in your sandbox does not have reliable sources, which every article must have, especially one where there is no evidence this person is notable by Wikipedia standards. Sorry! &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 21:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * PhotobloggerNYT, go to this page and read it: Reliable sources I will try to find a sample article so you can see.  &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 23:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

January 2009
Welcome to Wikipedia. The recent edit you made to Wikipedia:Transwiki log has been reverted, as it appears to be unconstructive. Use the sandbox for testing; if you believe the edit was constructive, please ensure that you provide an informative edit summary. You may also wish to read the introduction to editing. Thank you. Alansohn (talk) 02:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It appears this edit was a simple newbie mistake. --KP Botany (talk) 03:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

User talk pages
Yes, my talk page works. Go to my talk page, again, and click on the new section tab at the top, then put your comments in there. Still, you might want to take a break. When people offer to assist you, and you resort to snide remarks, they're not going to help you. I've written articles on Wikipedia about lesser known fashion photographers, and these articles have not deleted. I also have a group of good editors who like to work with me on minor biographies, who will also help with this article, if one gets going and well-sourced. So, if you want help, I'll be glad to, but not with snide remarks, and not in your time frame. Write the article, provide the sources, or links, and I'll help. No problem. Snide remarks? Problem. --KP Botany (talk) 04:28, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

thank you sincerely KP Botany, I sorry if I offended you, I am so frustrated because I just am learning wiki; I felt attacked, and I really felt strongly about the article- I found a Spanish Vogue from Feb 08 that has this photographer; its linked in on the page. :) I am sorry I acted immaturely. I will get this re-written and appreciate your help. :) all the best sarah PhotobloggerNYT (talk) 04:46, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah . . . sorry. I deleted the message, and then thought about it, and the posted it, before reading this. I suppose Sarah would now wish it had been written differently, and of course it's clear that KP's read it so it's now rather superfluous. Well, either of you is free to redelete it.


 * Sarah I noticed that the message was in a form akin to


 * ==Title== Message


 * Make that


 * ==Title==


 * Message


 * next time. -- Hoary (talk) 05:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Sarah, apologies not necessary! Wikipedia is so frustrating it's unbelievable!  That's why my talk page says I'm retired--because I'm always so frustrated.
 * But, stay focused on the goal: write a good article, source it well, or even sorta-well, and it will find a home. If it doesn't work out, you learn how to write future articles better, and you may have good suggestions for other articles.  Wikipedia is a great place for minor biographhies, but they can only be part of Wikipedia with good sources.  And, we will help you.
 * --KP Botany (talk) 05:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources
Copied from User talk:Mattisse:
 * PhotobloggerNYT, can we move this general discussion about your article and sources to your talk page, intead of having it on 3 users' talk pages? Unfortunately, Mattisse is correct about your sources, they are not reliable sources.  Most of the sources you linked to are blogs, and anyone can say anything on a blog.  If he's been in Brazilian, Italian, and Spanish Vogue they will have small articles about him that give his bio and credentials.  This are considered reliable sources.  But, please do start by reading the link that Mattisse gave, and I will copy this post to your talk page to discuss there.  Newspapers about his photo shoots would also be reliable sources.  His own web site is not a reliable source, but can be included if there are other sources available.  --KP Botany (talk)