User talk:Physis/Hunter-gatherer cultures and ecology

Hi

I'm very proud to say that my dissenting nature came to some good, in motivating you to write this. You are doing great work. I'll do my best to add anything I can, thought you are setting the bar high on that one, as I'm not an anthropologist and not particularly knowledgeable on shamanism as it turns out hehe.

The example I mentioned is from my own experience, so I can not quote or provide reference. It did feature on South African TV though. An archaeologist and an ecologist I know were travelling together. They often work together on impact assessments of new developments. I ran into them at an abandoned living site where a TV crew asked them to provide background for a documentary snippet in a magazine program. There were also several indigenous or seemingly indigenous people who were claiming direct decent form the local king or paramount chief or some-one they were claiming to have lived there. Incidentally, these "natives" were speaking a different language from the former Paramount chief, so their decent is questionable.

At this occasion, the archaeologist gave us the benefit of his experience buy pointing out the ruins and foundations that was left from this Chief's settlement. He could also indicate such detail as where the cattle were kept and watered by marks left by their extended use and erosion it caused. The ecologist then went about filling this picture by pointing out the remaining marks of their ecological impact. We could all very clearly see the differences in vegetation type, erosion trenches etc. and total absence of woody plants larger than small shrubs.

I think I might have overstated my objection. The point I was trying to make is that it is very easy to say people live in harmony with nature because they live in nature, if you haven't looked at the harmony part. Also I'd like to see evidence of this harmony if it does exist. I think you have provided a lot of evidence and opposition so we can get some debate started and you can show both points of view in the article. Also, I don't believe everything we know was invented or discovered by science. I bet my own ancestors were baking bread long before any one knew that CO2 from fermentation by yeast is what makes the dough rise. They didn't even know that yeast is a living organism, yet they weren't prevented form baking the bread. What I'd like to know though, is how concious is this shaman of his environmental impact. Does he know how many animals, how quickly they breed, or does he merely have a vague feeling of unease because hunters haven't bought back a sample of a particular animal in a while? Or is it all illusionist and he's blocking a type of animal because the meat tastes good and he's in a foul mood? Or selfish?

From the article on Shamanism, I didn't understand that a shaman has to claim power over spirits or a spirit realm in some way (as opposed to communing with the ancestors or throwing the bones)like a sangoma does. I wasn't familiar with the technical aspects of what constitutes a shaman, and shamanism. Maybe you can make some improvement in the shamanism article so that others don't misunderstand it like I did. Also, I didn't know that they had to be in a hunter/gatherer society as opposed to pastoralist. I guess this makes my example irrelevant then, though I still maintain that we can't say primitive people are by definition environmentally friendlier and better in harmony with nature. In my example, I've seen how extended occupation by a primitive culture devastated the ecology by over utilisation of resources. I can't accept that only pastoralists would do this and that hunter/gatherers are exempt. They also use firewood for example.

I know tribes in my area (South Africa) usually have a "Sang-goma" that is called a witch-doctor, and I assumed it was a shaman. This is a person who primarily throws the bones and predicts the future, apparently. They may also provide miscellaneous services of herbalism and potions, witchcraft, cursing enemies of their client etc. There are several names for these and varying specializations, as well as a connotations of good and evil. I've heard ngaka, which is translated as doctor, moloi, and possibly some others I can't recall right away. Some may also engage in rain making. This seems to overlap, because many tribes were known to use a San (Bushman) Shaman or rain-maker for some of the same purposes.

Anyway, I'm glad I started you thinking :D I'll try and make a positive contribution when I get time to read up on it. Good luck to you on this in the mean time.

Squiose (talk) 13:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)