User talk:Piano non troppo/Archive:PlanArtiveFromOuterSpace

List of micronations
You seem to have spotted numerous issues with this article- if it's not looking as if the issues are being resolved soon, I advise you nominate the article at featured list removal candidates. J Milburn (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the comment. Doing anti-vandalism, the article was shown at random, so I don't have an established position on the subject. After questioning the validity of three reference links, and looking at other article problems, I decided to change the article rating from "Featured" to "C class". (I've never changed an article status in my years in Wiki, so this was quite a step.)


 * Apparently I've been drawn into a protracted dispute, and received a message from an administrator supporting my position. I found the answer as interesting as the article's issues themselves. I'm unsure how to proceed. It wasn't my intention to get into a firefight. Direction or any advice would be welcome. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, firstly, you can't unilaterally delist a FL- that's what the link above is for. Personally, I'm completely with you- the article has severe issues. I myself became involved with it because of it's shocking use of non-free and copyvio images- many now removed or deleted outright. It should not be listed as featured- if it was to be nominated for removal, it would hopefully be drastically improved. J Milburn (talk) 22:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You didn't mention that it would take two hours to complete the process! Lololol. I'm adding a notification for anyone who has been a major contributor this year. Thanks again for your advice. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 01:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

RE: WWII Collage
Thanks, and apologies if I appeared snippy. There was no call for that, particularly since the image was, indeed, nominated for deletion and partially a copyvio. Skinny87 (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No offense taken! In fact the wording rather clued me in that I should fix my edit right away. Given the earlier comments criticizing the collage by Sole Flounder, I had assumed that the collage involved some complicated decision-making that I wouldn't readily be able to unravel. Proved not to be the case. Thanks! Piano non troppo (talk) 19:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Invitation to join Wikiproject Micronations
I note your interest in the subject of micronations.

Wikipedia always welcome a diversity of opinion, so you might wish to consider registering as a member of the WikiProject Micronations:

I look forward to working with you over coming months to improve and significantly extend Wikipedia's micronation content. --Gene_poole (talk) 01:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Gene, it's tempting. To this point my Wikipedia anti-vandalism and copy editing are similar to aspects of my professional work; it's relaxing to come here and "knock off" a few straightforward issues.


 * I've written a couple novels, and am convinced the worldview created there has a "real" component, and potentially a "real" effect. Therefore, I'm quite sympathetic to the notion that even a frivolous micronation might be a valuable social experiment. Perhaps an invaluable one. Be that as it may, I have strong reactions to fiction writers who pretentiously overestimate their command of the craft — the majority. How have the novelists failed? They haven't convinced me they believe what they are saying. I have a similar problem with some micronations.


 * Some micronations are like school clubs. I belonged to the Existentialist Guild at university. We had a pragmatic agenda: confront people's complacency. And we did, more than once getting into trouble. Was it worthwhile? Decidedly. Is a specific micronation worthwhile? I'm uncertain of my ability to ascertain, or whether there are sufficient facts to judge. Without facts, without notable action, one runs into difficult questions of whether a specific micronation is "Wiki encyclopedic". With Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 15:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your considered response.


 * In terms of micronations in WP, I take a prosaic, policy-based approach. When dealing with entities that may be ephemeral, tongue-in-cheek, whimsical or quixotic, I feel that is all that we can properly do. To do otherwise risks falling into the error of subjectivity and personal value judgement.


 * In my opinion, the only micronation content that should ever be in WP, is that which establishes its notability by virtue of being the subject of reportage in multiple, reliable third party sources - which are properly cited in the relevant article/s. There are a very great many press articles on the subject, along with several recently published books, and at least one academic conference paper that I'm aware of - so there's no shortage of reference material available.


 * Needless to say this approach automatically excludes the vast majority of "virtual" micronations, schoolboy clubs and other lesser, non-enduring, unsubstantive manifestations of the phenomenon. --Gene_poole (talk) 12:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Heads-up
Hi there. I'm shortly going to propose that this site be added as an WP:EL to both List of micronations and Micronations.

As the site includes the most extensive, up-to-date listing of micronations currently available from any source, I believe that it is directly relevant to the subject of those articles, and that its inclusion within them would significantly complement the existing content, and enhance their usefulness and the level of informativeness they communicate to the general reader.

However, before I iniate that discussion I firstly wanted to disclose that I'm the owner and primary author of www.listofmicronations.com. Secondly, in order to avoid any suggestion of WP:COI I intend to refrain from adding the link myself, should the eventual consensus support my proposal. --Gene_poole (talk) 02:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thmc1
Hi; saw your warning and reversion, just wanted to note that it's not only that article that Thmc1 has been waging his little NYC-is-the-mostest campaign - see this edit at Chinatown, Manhattan, which is clearly an effort to downplay even the existence of the San Francisco, Vancouver and Toronto Chinatowns. One problem with patrolling such edits is the wide panoply of "Chinatown" articles; see my comments about this on Talk:Chinatowns in Canada and the United States re the difference between ChinaTOWNS and Chinese immigrant/commercial districts of the modern era etc.....Somewhere maybe on Talk:Chinatown I wrote something on "Chinatown Overburden" too, about the reduplication/replication of overlapping materials across way too many redundant pages....Skookum1 (talk) 17:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * (Having read the Thmc1 edit you cited.) Actually, heh, in some ways it is refreshing to see an article that *doesn't* announce that its subject is getting bigger and more popular all the time. (Where are the articles about songs that dropped *most quickly from* #1?


 * Before I made my change, I did notice the discussion in Chinatown, San Francisco. You wrote a couple hundred words, working through issues with Thmc1's edits. The practical points you bring up are cogent.


 * When anti-vandalism "boilerplate" messages are sent to anon IP editors, they go overboard interpreting an action in the most favorable light: "You may not be aware, but your edit deleted a large amount of text...blah, blah...please continue to enjoy editing Wikipedia." Those messages seem to "work", avoiding rousing anger. So...writing that Thmc1 is "behaving like the First Qin Emperor"....


 * A senior Wiki editor wrote: "Argue with a person only three times, if you haven't convinced them by that time, you never will". I must say I've really regretted some occasions not following that advice.


 * I will drop in on Thmc1's edits, though. Ha. And respond, if I can muster the stomach for confrontation. Piano non troppo (talk) 02:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just apprising you of an edit this morning, reversing a deletion/censorship/change of context/meaning on Chinatown, Vancouver. The material he deleted, and I put back in, are "standard fare" in writeups about Vancouver's Chinatown and its history, though I had not cites for them; but it's a gross oversimplification to reduce it just to "Canada" vs the comparison to SF and NYC.  Part of the problem is that the onigoing confusion between a city's Chines population and the population of its Chinatown are problematic and difficult to define; by the loosey-goosey standard that he's been applying to the NYC Meta-Chinatown, Vancouver's Chinatown by his way of defining things actually takes in large chunks of other parts of the city, and some of its suburbs; i.e. both physically and demographically; but in terms of the local usage of the word, "Chinatown" only refers to a specific area, and doesn't have that many residents - it's a commercial district drawing on various residential neighbourhoods, eincluding hte suburbs.  All the Chinatown articles are problematic in this regard, as well as in their ongoing pissing congtest on who's bigger, fatter, which types of Chinese live in each one, and so on.  I've been to Manhattan's Chinatown, it's nowhere near the size of VAncouver's, as sween with my own eyes.....no doubt he'll accuse me of "propaganda" but it's always intereting how practitioners of that art revel in accusing others of it in order to accomplish their campaigns; somethng similar went on at Hollywood North quite a while ago....Skookum1 (talk) 15:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep. I'm local to SF Chinatown, and Chinese friends and I used to visit regularly as teens. There's another one across the Bay. There's a Japantown in SF that was consciously built (as I remember) to rival SF Chinatown. There's a lot of posturing going on (in Wiki and RL). My local Chinese market has started carrying Thai ingredients, and I never fail to get a comment from the owner if I'm buying lemongrass and coconut milk instead of cloud ears and Chinese rice vinegar.
 * As a schoolchild, our class was guided through underground passages in SF Chinatown that were used for illicit purposes such as smuggling Chinese women slaves. (In 1900, SF had whole blocks that were turned over to gambling and prostitution.) The Chinatown, San Francisco article is in part tourist information, and in part semi-politically correct history about immigration. But I wonder if non-Americans are equally aware that in the last decades Chinese and Japanese aren't considered minorities — are ineligible for aid programs that seek to redress discrimination — because they aren't underprivileged. Chinese communities are still strong (I worked for a Chinese company in the US), but they aren't nearly so focused on localities. The article seems to go from missing central criminal historical considerations to missing the changed role of modern Chinatown. Piano non troppo (talk) 23:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the preceding; a lot of Wikipedia copy about this, and of webdsites supported by Chinese organizations/activism, is both sanitized and (especially re modern conditions) very fuzzy and vague; in Canada national history now has only the refrain about the railway and the head tax, and the wealth and prosperity of Chiense merchants and gold miners throughout is downplayed in preference for portraying them as underprivileged hard-working people persecuted by evil whites etc (while not in the US, in Canada Chinese adn Japanese are still eligible for what would be called "employment equity" in USian and other race-baseed favoritism, especially in government hiring....and cultural funding programs...)....it's all politics and very little reality, and it often seems to be the newcomers who have the most cartoonish versions of North American history and also of non-Chinese (and cmedian Mark Britten, aka "the Chinaman", commented to em in email that the people who make the most stink about his nickname are the newcomer elements, while those raised in North America treat it is a joke)...that being said, Thmc1 has been at it again, though user:Emarsee has since reversed that, as I couldn't - well, I could, but it was on a 3rr-path if I did so. When I get a chance I'll line-cite both contestible items.  Though frankly they're largely frmo Vancou er Chinatown's own promotional material and I don't know how statistically accurate they might be nowadays.  Between precise geographic definitions and the difference between Chinese population of a city and how much is in a Chinatown, it's not a precise science....Chinatown, Vancouver, though, has precise legal boundaries, whereas Thmc1's version of Manhattan's is entirely unrealistic and includes lotsf non-Chinese areas....(and Chinese areas which are not considered to be Chinatown historically...).  To me, the application of the term "Chinatown" to areas which are only Chinese commercial/residential but not called Chinatown is something like ethnocultural imperialism, ditto with the proliferation of Wiki content claiming that such and so an area is a "Koreatown".  If Thmc1's definitions were applied to Vancouver, most of the city could be considered Chinatown; only a few areas do not have a noticeable Chinese presence, ditto with South Burnaby and nearly all of Richmond....and much of Toronto and, in fact, Calgary...anyya there's a certain Vancou er editor who I'll enlist to find proper citations/wording for these passages and there are some WP:Canada editors who are actually Chinese, including I think Emarsee....but Thmc1 bears watching; his complaint that "he doesn't know who is reverting" bespeaks someone who doesn't look at edit histories, or care about the reasons for previous edits; but only sees his own agenda, i.e. I gather he's new....I was going to send this to you last night as it was a reversion I didn't want to get into, being at 2RR already....looks like there's another watchdog on the case...but in general the whole swathe of Chinatown articles has had a lot of this type of edits and editors and they all need cleanup and factual-accuracy checks....and  the removal of lots of directory/peacock type content....Skookum1 (talk) 12:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

4RR with Thmc1
I'm not sure if you're an admin, but if so thmc1 has reached 4RR, as he's now reverted twice on User:Emarsee, the same reversion he did on me twice....I'll also notify others who've posted on his talkpage who seem to be admins. This silliness has go to stop; his latest edit comment is "letter sent to Editorial Assistance requesting preservation of this fact and removal of inaccuracies". I don't think he really realizes what "editorial assistance" means around here......Skookum1 (talk) 20:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically it's 3RR, since the first edit he did on the Chinatown Vancouver page doesn't count as a revert. I'll definitely report him if he reverts again. єmarsee  •  Speak up!  21:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thmc1 just made a request for editor assistance here . Administrator User:Jayron32 responded that his issue needed to be discussed on the Chinatown (San Francisco) talk page.
 * It might be appropriate for Skookum1, Emarsee, and others to focus on Thmc1's: 1) Removing sourced material, 2) Removing existing factual material, as in the edit recently reverted, 3) Edit warring, and 4) Their tendency to make good faith (if unconstructive) changes, giving no explanation, unless challenged, as in several edits with a couple days to New York City, for example here, 5) Making unsupported, subjective, and unencyclopedic contributions such as adding that one Chinatown does not "have the activity" of another.
 * I just read some historical hardcopy material (on another subject) from a source that is written with the quality of a casual blog; I suspect part of the problem is that Thmc1 doesn't recognize why statements that they "know are true", and for which they have respectable support are any less valid than anyone else's statements. Speaking as a sometime professional editor -- where I actually have to confront such people and get a resolution -- it's quite possible that Thmc1 won't change their attitude much in the short term. Why should they -- they reason -- when they know they are right, and the articles already have other material that is less reliable? It's going to be a case-by-case confrontation, where weight of editor opinion will need to be regularly applied.
 * (Btw, recent edits to Chinatown (San Francisco) were by a new editor with no other edits. They supported the reason given for my edit, and they admonished Thmc1; the sophistication of their reasoning suggests they are not actually a new Wikiedia editor. A WP:SOCKPUPPET is not going to help our position.)
 * Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 01:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Message from Thmc1 to User:Emarsee which copied in formatting text.

Hi, Piano_non_troppo! Peace, Wiki brother (or sister)!

Below is my response to "Emarsee":




 * Hi Thmc1, it sounds to me like you're on the right track. When I came to Wiki, I found the endless rules and guidelines extremely frustrating. (Especially since I'm a professional editor, right?) The "easy road" is to make minor changes to a few articles, then see how other editors respond. Another "easy road" is to get a mentor -- they'll help you from running into unexpected situations. The less easy road is to read the basic guidelines and make (and try to defend) major changes. But as you stick around reading guidelines is something you'll end up doing, anyhow. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 13:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Response regarding editing the Chinatown, Vancouver article
Hi, Piano_non_troppo,

Thank you so much for your insightful and very helpful response! I greatly appreciate it, and I will do my best to follow your advice.

May I now please be permitted to make the integrally accurate and entirely benign change to the Chinatown, Vancouver article as I proposed in the message forwarded to you? I believe that I have justified my statements and rationale appropriately.

Could you please also advise me as to HOW to check the edit history on any random article which I may come to edit?

Best regards, and Respectfully so,

Thmc1Thmc1 (talk) 19:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, you haven't justified your statements, nor have you provided citations proving that the material you tried to remove is incorrect; you HAVE made continued references to your own edits/information on the NYC article, but those are also suspect as people on various talkpages have pointed out (specifically Talk:Chinatown, San Francisco albeit re Manhattan). You are not making a "benign change", you are deleting information based on your own interpretation/bias.  Stop painting yourself as some kind of noble crusader, and STOP imputing to others suspect motives when your own data is much at question.  I totally resent your description of me as wanting to get even for you "correcting" me in the course of your edits; I do n ot edit based on such childish motives and have over 40,000 edits to my credit.  That you have come to piano non troppo for approval of your intended edits without even trying to discuss the issue, or to provide the information that I and others have asked for ,is just plain silly (as well as rude).  You have also misrepresented your one-sided and repeated edits as "proposed" when they were not proposed at all, but made over and over despite objections by other editors.  And if you're looking for edit history, DUH, it's at the top of the page, where it says "history".....polite language is no cover for rude behaviour.....your claims about Manhattan are not supported by critics of your edits, yet you continue to assert them as if they were obvious truth.  Maybe to you they are, but evidently you don't care much about what other people think or know.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Thmc1, I've answered your question about how to check edit history here. I find the third technique is useful to find out who is making a limited change, perhaps based on a particular guideline, vs. those who have invested considerable effort in the article, and may have a deep understanding of its editing issues. Piano non troppo (talk) 04:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Yo
I haven't seen you in a while, Piano, but can you please block that IP who keeps vandalizing your page. I just reverted some vandalism he put on your page & i noticed he's on his final warning, which came prior to the vandalism I just reverted. Please block him. Cheers AndrewEnns (talk) 05:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Andrew, thanks for reverting that. (And the Edit summary, lol.) The anon IP is on his way to a block, right now. Piano non troppo (talk) 05:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome :)
Good day! :) You are very welcome Piano non troppo. To my knowledge WP:3RR doesn't apply when reverting vandalism... but your mention of it makes me feel like I should look into that again, just to make sure. On the article in question, the spammer was editing just as fast as I was reverting, so I suspect I may have to wait awhile, and go back to clean up the mess once they are gone. It's been great to finally hear from a name I see so often! ;) Happy editing :) -- WikHead (talk) 08:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Me again. I just took a look at WP:3RR, and though I was indeed correct about the rule not applying to vandal-reverts, spamming (i.e. edits against consensus) is not an exception as I'd assumed. Thank you kindly for the heads-up on this... I'll be a bit more conservative from now on with persistent vandals. Regards :) -- WikHead (talk) 08:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Chinatown, Vancouver article - first line
Hi, Piano_non_troppo. No apparent response from "Skookum1" to my message to him, after approx 48 hrs. Will refrain from surmising any reason. Can I bother you to look at my detailed message to him about the line in question in the "Chinatown, Vancouver" article on his talk page? I'm interested in your take on the situation :) -- Just FYI, there really is no "campaign" for any vested interest at this point - but I do honestly feel, and indeed firmly, that accuracy deserves a higher priority here than trying to fathom scintillating comparisons.

I'm also curious, is there any editorial hierarchy involved in this situation? I don't want to put you in a difficult situation.

Thanks much.

Thmc1Thmc1 (talk) 04:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Nodding and smiling. Phrases such as "no 'campaign' for any vested interest" suggest you are becoming a "Wiki citizen".


 * May I suggest that you go on a hunt for reference resources? If you find related material, it will defuse the confrontation, maybe make for an interesting conversation. Google books can be excellent for this. (And maybe the online Britannica? Maybe another encyclopedia?)


 * But let me tell you a story. Once I saw an actor live do something. I read their Wiki article, and added what I had seen (it agreed and emphasized a point that the article already made). The editors who monitored that article politely told me I couldn't add the material, and removed it. I was new to Wiki, and I was ... annoyed. In fact, after being harassed by some idiot (when I *correctly* changed the number of movies in a series in another article), I left Wiki for years.


 * Then I realized that one of the big, important things that's going on here is a socialization process. We editors get socialized into a new way of thinking. But also the articles get "socialized" -- big business can't always just come in here and flat out lie. Movies that have negative reviews ... those reviews often enough show up. Some Wiki bios have quite unpleasant, negative information that no doubt the person would prefer not have widely known and discussed.


 * Consider accuracy and verifiability WP:VERIFY both critical. And...maybe consider your social role. We all get a certain percent of our edits reverted. Are there related articles to contribute to? Where you don't have to wrangle with other editors? Escalating this sort of thing can take weeks -- and some times one just starts a firestorm of comments -- where more and more people express their opinions, counter-opinions endlessly.


 * In your shoes, I'd look for references, as well as "greener pasture" articles. You've said your piece. One of the surprising things that happens in Wiki is that...days...weeks from now...some other editor will read the discussion page...and decide you are right. It happens all the time. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 05:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Response to last message to Thmc1
Wisely stated, piano_non_troppo. I will respect that advice and check back in a couple of weeks or so. And as you said, who knows - maybe some editor in the Wikisphere will understand my point and decide that I am right.

Thanks again,

Thmc1Thmc1 (talk) 02:41, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Hotel del coronado edit.
I have reinstated your recent edit to this article. Your claim was that the phrase "A world-class hotel" was unsubstantiated. The claim is valid, and is referenced in the first paragraph and cited reference #5. If you would like to add clarity to the paragraph in question, I suggest that you re-add the cited reference a second time. Hotel del Coronado. Ljmajer (talk) 03:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The phrase "world class" is WP:PEACOCK in this context, i.e., it "merely promote(s) the subject of the article without imparting verifiable information". In this case "world class" has no meaning whatsoever. Citing a meaningless phrase, from a web commercial page promoting the hotel and providing reservations simply means the reference is WP:PEACOCK too, wouldn't you think? Piano non troppo (talk) 04:26, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't intend or mean to get into an argument over something trivial, but the reference refers to an article from the USA Today, which listed it as one of the top 10 resorts in the world (In the referenced page, you have to click the word "Show" after the word "hotel" for the list of awards to appear). After searching USA Today's website, I can find no archived article of said list. Since no link to the original article can be found please do the Wikipedia users a favor, and remove any mention in the opening paragraph, and any other place where it is mentioned.  Cheers.  Ljmajer (talk) 06:34, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism Slysoft and others
Today, At 17:39, you made several edits to Slysoft and some of there products. You claim that these products are criminal. This does not agree with them to remove them. Although anyDVD is illegal in Germany and possibly America (see Digital Millennium Copyright Act), this does not account to other Country's. The legal status in many other European countries is unknown and certain counties (like The Netherlands; Dutch copyright law) it is allowed to make (digital) backups. Iran on the other hand does not have any law about it (Intellectual property in Iran), making Anydvd a perfectly legal product.

Multiple users have complained about vandalism, please, restrain your self next time and don't remove entire entry's.

Tell the truth, don't cloak it...Eonfge (talk) 18:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact that shooting heroin is legal in Antartica is irrelevant. What matters is that it is illegal in most countries -- and so is the stated function of these products. Exactly one anonymous editor, as far as I can see left a comment. And that comment shows little understanding of Wikipedia rules, policies or guidelines.


 * I'm asking to have the articles removed, and I wasn't sure of the proper process in this case. Rather than wait indefinitely, I was bold in my edit -- which is what editors are asked to do. I would change part of the text, but in trying to do so in Slysoft, I found that much of the content described illegal operations, and that the references are WP:SPAM and WP:LINKSTOAVOID to Slysoft's own sites. I've now researched, determined how to ask the article is removed, and changed the article accordingly.


 * This statement on Slysoft demonstrates that its purpose is to alter a product in a way not intended by the manufacturer: "to remove/disable DRM restrictions and user prohibited operations on DVD films"


 * This statement in DVD43 indicates that it is intended to allow use in an illegal manner: "enabling DVD playback outside of its intended region"


 * The Wikimedia Foundation takes copyright violations in its own articles very seriously. The fact that something isn't illegal in some countries doesn't change the fact that it promotes copyright violation. Seems to me ... promoting copyright violation is contrary to the Foundation goals. Piano non troppo (talk) 19:36, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You've been warned by multiple users now. Please stop vandalising articles that you don't agree with. You blanked the page for DVD43, That is by even the "loosest" of interpretations a violation of editing policy. If you continue to randomly insert point of view and other disruptive acts, you're actions will be brought to the attention of moderators who may wish to instil sanctions or bans against you. Please consider the entire community. Lostinlodos (talk) 05:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Get the facts straight, Lostinlodos.
 * 1) Eonfge claimed "Multiple users have complained about vandalism". At the time, I found one comment in an "Edit summary". I.e., when they made the comment, there were not "multiple users". Not multiple comments. If you check Eonfge's history, you will note they have no other edits, except to revert my edit, and to comment defending their edit. This is a WP:SPA account, whose only purpose seemed to be to protect articles promoting products whose self-stated purpose is to violate the law. I.e., from all the evidence, Eonfge was and is a vandal.
 * 2) All the blanking edits -- all related to the same company -- all with the same problem -- happened at the same time, with the exception of this one . It is common practice to remove all instances of vandalism at the same time. Not my edits, but the articles themselves are vandalism, since they promote products whose purpose is to violate international copyright laws.
 * 3) More recently, you, on the other hand, Lostinlodos, removed a notability tag with no explanation, except to say that it was vandalism.
 * 4) I also tried to make my point (after researching the best approach) by adding a prod tag to a single article. Nsaum75 removed the prod tag, citing . And that is exactly to the point. That section explicitly reads that content may not violate "laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted".
 * 5) I intend to bring administrators into this, because the articles in their current form do violate the laws of Florida, as well as international law, by promoting criminal activity. Piano non troppo (talk) 10:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I made previous edits, but under anonymous IP's. When I registered, I found out that others had already restored slysoft/dvd43 and thus considered it as 'multiple users complaining'. My choice of words was perhaps a little poor. I do seriously insist that Wikipedia stays a true encyclopaedia, no censoring, just facts. If you think that the articles are non-factional or misleading, you could edit them or expend the entry with a "legal status" topic.Eonfge (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying your status, Eonfge. Let's move on to the main issue, and not get tangled in whether we followed an ideal path to get here.
 * Well-defined positions are being forwarded. One, as you've said a couple times, is that an overriding concern is that Wikipedia be uncensored. Another, which I was acting on, is that promotional articles about products whose purpose is expressly stated as violating international law should not be in Wikipedia.
 * I don't know about you, but I really have nothing to add to what is a fairly conventional position. I don't know whether you chose to add something novel to the basic stance, but assuming that you do not, where does that leave us? My feeling is that applying Wikipedia rules would either: 1) Delete the articles, or 2) Remove the statements suggesting the products are useful to break the law, or perhaps 3) Add tags questioning whether the software was sufficiently notable to include in Wikipedia. I'm not going to be so bold as to articulate your position entirely, but it's something to the effect that freedom of information is of overriding importance.
 * I don't believe that the Wikimedia Foundation holds that its primary goal is freedom of information -- at the expense of the law. There are many Wiki rules that limit what people might choose to "freely express". The question is whether these particular articles are governed by a vague concept "freedom of information" or by relatively well delineated international law.
 * Compare these articles to Lockpicking, which does not describe everything needed to commit a crime. (Which these software articles do, since all that is required is to buy the product.) The Lockpicking article extensively discusses the legal status of lock picks, including this quote, "Illegal possession of lock picks is generally prosecuted as a felony." If the articles created for Slysoft software also included lengthy sections describing their felony use, then perhaps that would meet Wikimedia Foundation requirements. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 15:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Admittedly not reviewing your history more carefully I may have again jumped the gun. In review it looks like you had legitimate, though misguided, concerns. While I understand you may have concerns regarding legality, do keep in mind that the primary intended uses for the SlySoft products are to protect investment (personal-copy) and provide compatibility. There's plenty of discussion regarding the legality of these and related products, and, equally, the [il]legality of the DMCA. As it stands, recording a well-recognized industry leader (digital media backups) in one or more wikipedia articles does not violate any Florida laws, even if the products they produce currently do. Forums have long been considered acceptable for company announcements on wikipedia as long as that is the primary or only source for company announcements. That's also been covered and debated. SlySoft's product announcements are made in the product announcements thread, now, and previously were made in more general threads of their forum. For now, until I can find better announcement coverage from other sources, I ask that you let stand the links in equal good-faith. I did again remove the notability tag, as CPU, Maximum PC, and PC Magazine are all considered by the industry to be industry expert publications and reliable sources. All else stated, I believe the multiple issues tag should be added to ALL SlySoft pages, but the pages should not deleted. The multiple issues tag would cover: additional reliable sources, additional third party sources, wikified, clarified, and adapted to better fit Wikipedia. Lostinlodos (talk) 17:10, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Fayez Sarofim
No additional reference given because the existing refence itself indicates a net worth of $1.8b, not $400m as given in the article. Click on it and see : http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/HZC2.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.254.165.57 (talk) 03:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. I reverted my edit. Piano non troppo (talk) 12:03, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

re Manupatra
Hi Piano non troppo - Thanks for letting me know about the additions to Manupatra and for re-writing the copy-paste. I've been keeping an eye on the page, but missed the the most recent addition of copyright text, as I was away at the time. Regardless of whether they release it under Creative Commons or not, I don't think the company's website verbatim makes a particularly good Wikipedia article. Hopefully, the editor(s) will be happy with your, much better version, and will leave it be; otherwise perhaps the only way to go may be another semi-protection. Thanks again! -- &#9735;  Kateshortforbob talk &#9732;  22:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Carisoprodol and Soma and vandalism
I probably should just give up and unwatch this article, but I spent a lot of time on it a few days ago and I hate to have wasted all that effort. Could I ask you to look carefully at the article the way I left it on October 2, and see if you really think it is worse than the present version? The main change I made, other than removing some POV stuff, was to move much of the introduction to a separate section, Usage and legal status. My reasoning is that those 2 issues--where and for what indications it is used, and where it is banned or restricted--belong together, and the information is too extensive and detailed to be covered in an introduction. I have also found that when there is a lot of vandalism, keeping the introduction short and neutral sometimes reduces the meddling.Rose bartram (talk) 11:31, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, Rose bartram. Maybe changing your approach, rather than "giving up". Some related issues?
 * 1) 98.225.96.105 is making many edits to the article Carisoprodol including this, reverted by another editor as "good faith", but also this incorrect edit removing what appears to be a correct statement from a reliable reference , and this edit, removing material, and insulting me (after having insulted "Norway" in the previous edit) . I asked them to explain their edits, and have not received a reply. If my edits are reverted by 98.225.96.105 again without explanation, then I will ask to have that person blocked from editing the article. (Since they have now had plenty of warning.)
 * 2) It's not clear from your user page how experienced you are with Wikipedia. Two editors repeatedly reverting one another's edits — neither giving any explanation in the "Edit Summary" — is considered edit warring WP:EW. You and 98.225.96.105 are doing that. It's not a good position for you to be in, because you are making "good faith" edits, and are willing to discuss them (as seen here, and on the article talk page). You will have a much stronger position if you explain your edits in the summary. (And if you have an extended comment, directing editors from the summary to the discussion page.)
 * 3) After looking carefully just now, I realized that you had merely reorganized material, rather than deleting references and adding your own commentary . (I had no clear idea of what you were doing, since you hadn't left an Edit Summary.) I have replaced your last version.
 * 4) As an anti-vandalism editor, what caught my attention was an anonymous IP editor making this unexplained edit, that adds the uncited and dubious statement "with a safety and efficacy well established". However your version had warning bells on it, too, (although they were much more minor) because this paragraph has several problems:


 * "The brand name Soma is shared with the Soma/Haoma of ancient India, a drug mentioned in ancient Sanskrit writings.[note 1] Soma is also the name of the fictional drug featured in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.[3]"


 * 4a) The main topic of the article isn't a fictional version of Soma, nor is it about an ancient Indian drug. That a company marketing department associated their product with a fictional drug that has practically no side effects is just a publicity stunt. That material should all appear in a footnote, or at the bottom of the article (as "another use of the word"). But those "other Somas" shouldn't be mixed in the main text with a branded drug.
 * 4b) Also somewhat trivially, the note format is infrequently used in Wikipedia. Perhaps you were trying to relocate some material for the very reason of 4a?
 * 4c) The material in the note, however, is speculative, it's uncited, and it reaches no particular conclusion. (In Wikipedia terms original research WP:OR and unverifiable WP:V.) I suspect that even if references were found, they would be disallowed by Wikipedia (on those same grounds). I.e., the statements probably cannot be supported. (About hypothetical drugs in the far distant past.)
 * 4d) The marketing department probably was NOT trying to suggest that their product was similar to an Indian drug, but to the drug in a highly visible book that's already been made into two movies, and is set for another major Hollywood release. I.e., the Indian connection is rather "second order original research speculation". (Speculation about speculation, as it were.) The marketing department may never have heard of the Indian drug. At any rate, the Indian connection is wandering quite far off the main topic of the article.


 * In sum, what to do next is wait to see if 98.225.96.105 is more forthcoming and cooperative about their edits. Also it might be appropriate to reduce the mention of the origins of the name "Soma" to a simple parenthetical sentence such as:


 * "(The name 'Soma' had been previously used in Brave New World.)"


 * So, thanks for your good efforts, and hopefully this can be quickly resolved. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 18:30, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You are confusing my edits with other people's. I certainly did include an edit summary when I moved material from the introduction to a new section. What may possibly have confused you is that I had to make 2 minor edits after that, to clean up some duplications that I had inadvertently created, but that should be clear to anyone looking at the history page. I have never had anything to do with the "soma" name discussion, which was there before I contributed anything to the article, and I agree with you that the less said about it, the better. Nor can I see or remember anything I was involved with which could be interpreted as an edit war. My impression is that the vandals--I believe there are actually two of them--have created such chaos that its hard to see who did what. I haven't "continually" reverted anyone.Rose bartram (talk) 01:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Rose. Yes, right, I didn't check to see who had added the Soma material. Again, I was making a quick edit to revert vandalism, and assumed that since the material stayed, you somehow agreed with it. No problem.
 * Just a point of order, you reverted 98.225.96.105's edits here, here , and here . And I if I hadn't stepped in to revert one of 98.225.96.105's edits, presumably (hopefully) you would have reverted those, too. Anyway, the idea was to let you know about the Wiki concept of edit warring.
 * The good news is that 98.225.96.105 has not come back to change the article today, and that your version has stayed intact. 98.225.96.105's editing habits suggest that they return every few days, so we can't call this a "wrap" yet, as they say in the movie industry. But so far, so good. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 06:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Category:Fictional characters who have mental powers
Since every person has "mental powers" this category has no encyclopedic meaning, and should be deleted

You are wrong. We arent' talking about the power of thinking, dreaming or remember, but it's about fictional paranormal abilities like Telepathy (used by Professor X and Jean Grey) or Mind Transferral (used by Doctor Doom).Brazilian Man (talk) 18:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Many people, perhaps most people, believe that psychic powers are real. Many others believe that prayer can accomplish anything. In those groups is a wide variation of belief in what is possible: some believe anything is possible, some believe only what they have experienced themselves or what they think is proved.


 * People will (obviously) assume fictional characters aren't robbed of natural human abilities. "What is natural?" That's my point. It's impossible to draw a line between what is a fictional power and what is not. Therefore the category has no meaning, and is unencyclopedic. Piano non troppo (talk) 21:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

(I'm suggesting moving this discussion to the article's discussion page .) Piano non troppo (talk) 06:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There is an answer of mine on there.Brazilian Man (talk) 04:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

date unlinking
Hi, the original ArbCom remedies were revised into a more relevant form a few months later, involving proscriptions on only the reversion of the linking or unlinking of dates (and for some parties, the discussion of date linking).

As far as the temporary injunction on the mass linking/unlinking of dates, the definition of what "mass" means was always indecisive, but apparently refers only to determined, sustained, automated means of removing the old date-autoformatting (of triple-item dates, such as "3 January 1999". Where it is part of gnoming activities, it appears to be fine: User Colonies Chris and many others remove autoformatting as you do in passing as the gnome on a variety of clean-up issues, without trouble. On my occasional gnoming activities, I unlink them. I'm not even sure of the status of the injunction, which states that it will end if there's a community-agreed program for bot unlinking (there is—the RfC for such was in ?June, and the bot is undergoing testing at the Bot Approvals Group; the bot managed by User:Harej).

The unlinking of date fragments and other chronological items, such as "1980s", "20th century", "2001", and "17 July" is subject to community-agreed relevance tests set out at MOSNUM (and probably MOSLINK using the same wording). I find it hard to locate any chronological itema of this sort that are sufficiently relevant to an article, and usually unlink them when I encounter them, which is not often nowadays. Chronological articles themselves are exempt from this relevance test, to keep the peace. Unlinking "20 November" in an article on the Thai calendar, or in "2004 in basketball", therefore, will probably be met with resistance, so it's best not even to attempt it.

In other words, there has been a culture change, but it's wise at this stage to avoid participating in multiple reversions. Does this answer your question? Tony  (talk)  08:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

PS I believe that common-term overlinking is now the big problem. Tony  (talk)  08:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I get the flavor. It was the bot's activity, and defending that bot that was the source of contention. Date linking such as "20th Century" and " 2007 " was controversial.


 * As a professional webmaster for large knowledgebases, I've weighed in linking discussions in favor of reducing them . A problem with linking (and also with categories), is that the level of effort is often disproportional to the utility. If in-depth statistical analysis were available on Wiki browsing behavior, there's no doubt that editing habits would change.


 * Thank you very much for taking the time to explain. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 08:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Piano, yes, your opinion is much valued for your professional experience. Please see Vassyana's query on my talk page. Tony   (talk)  12:15, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you seriously not see the difference...
...between listing a STATE in which a restaurant operates, and listing the address of each location? If you do understand that these are completely different things, why do you keep trying to remove the list of states from Roy Rogers with edit summaries that indicate this is a list of specific restaurant locations? (Yes, I'm so sure that if we let this article list 10 states, other articles will list 200 states! No logical flaw in that reasoning!)

Every single article about a business will list the location of that business. Every single article about a chain will indicate what regions the chain operates in. It is one of the most basic facts imaginable in describing any company. In what universe could this possibly serve any promotional or directory purpose? Do you have any idea how big most states are? You might as well oppose mentioning what country a business operates in. Propaniac (talk) 13:09, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * See WP:NOTADVERTISING on this. Wikipedia is not: a substitute for Yellow Pages, not a resource for conducting business, not a collection of external or external links.
 * There is no exception because spam links are only one to a state or a country.
 * It's spam. Simple, unadorned promotion on behalf of Roy Rogers Restaurants.
 * This article is heavily edited by Jonesdr77, who may have a conflict of interest, and who vandalized my page and was given a warning.
 * All-in-all, bullying tactics to insert commercialism into Wikipedia. Piano non troppo (talk) 15:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * First of all, I'm the one who's reverted you the last seven thousand times you've tried to remove the list for absolutely no rational reason. Are you accusing me of being a shill for Roy Rogers? Do you think Roy Rogers is paying me to ensure that their article bears the list of states in which it operates? That would be a pretty insane accusation since I have several thousand edits and probably fewer than a dozen of them are in any way related to Roy Rogers. Maybe the person who originally added the list was a total shill, I don't know, but that doesn't remotely mean that the list is not valid information to include.
 * Second, what possible promotional benefit do you foresee Roy Rogers gaining from a list of states where they operate? Because a user might see the list and realize that somewhere in their state, a Roy Rogers restaurant exists? Are you suggesting that every single article about any commercial product or business should be whitewashed to remove any information that might increase a user's awareness of how to access or obtain that product? How in the world do you decide that this is spam, but it's not spam, for example, when an article about a TV show states what network the show airs on? You will never convince anyone that this information is spam.
 * Similarly, you will never convince anyone that the list of states is remotely similar to a Yellow Pages directory, or a "resource for conducting business", or that it is banned because of a restriction on "collections of links" (have you ever seen the Lists category? Are you planning to nominate every one of them for deletion on the same grounds you're applying here?). The whole point of the Yellow Pages is that it gives you specific contact information, it doesn't just say "you can find this somewhere in this state." No, there is no exception for linking only to a state, because nobody could reasonably think that a reference to a state is a Yellow Pages-type entry.
 * If you hate the user so much who inserted the list, deal with the user and take out the stuff from the article that's actually damaging. But the list is an asset, not a liability, and I'm not going to allow you to remove it based on your vendetta, trying to apply guidelines that clearly, unambiguously do not apply. Propaniac (talk) 18:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Your arguments speak for you. You are distorting the facts and being hysterical. Conversation ends. Piano non troppo (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm clearly the one distorting stuff here. Not the person claiming that guidelines apply to things they have nothing to do with (and who refuses to address any of the flaws in his argument). Propaniac (talk) 18:35, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Airship
Cheers. I now agree with your edit. -- Ec5618 (talk) 18:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Happy 's Day!
For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk  • 00:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you! That made a very good day even better! Piano non troppo (talk) 19:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The Art of War
Hello,

Regarding The Art of War. At best the statement that "CA used Sun Tzu's strategies to program their AI" is ridiculously badly worded. At worst, the person who posted that is making it up. Now, I think the person actually meant they used aspects of Sun Tzu's texts in the storyline/gameplay, not the AI. (from editor Intranetusa)


 * Nods. Those are reasonable guesses. Piano non troppo (talk) 21:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Notable people
So far I am neutral to the issue. What I would do is start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:BLP or something like that. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the advice.


 * I ran into an interesting situation where a person was categorized as being "from" two cities, neither of which was where she was born. It seemed worthwhile starting a discussion on that basis . Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 11:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Marisa Miller edits

 * Folks, something is wrong. I didn't intend to make the edits you are commenting on below. There is no way I would change someone's measurements without providing a reference. Piano non troppo (talk) 15:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello. I looked over your edits to Miller's article and restored many of the changes you made, as they were unexplained and made little apparent sense. As I said in my edit summary, why unlink Griffin Guess, who clearly has an article, then link Ashley Degenford, who clearly doesn't? Why remove a Commons link? Why change EL formatting? Why remove a Rolling Stone magazine ref and a sourced quote? You cited policy in removing the official forum link, so I didn't reinstate it, but as for your other changes, I can't see what policy could be behind any of it, and you didn't provide any. In the future, if you want to make these changes again, please go to the talk page and let's reach a consensus before any more removals/changes as responsible Wikipedians. Thanks!  Mbinebri  talk &larr; 14:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I should have looked more carefully the first time and reverted your edit and asked for discussion. I didn't realise at the time you deleted the alt (alternative) description for the image, which is part of WP:ALT required for accessibility and just plain good web design. I reverted your changes in their entirety because it was the easiest way to sort out the mistakes but I would like to help you make changes you feel are necessary to the article. Let us know what you see as flaws in the article and we can look to correcting/improving them. First thing I'm going to do is make sure her measurements are cited (even if that is somewhat flawed as I explained). -- Horkana (talk) 15:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I was going to revert back a few reversions myself, but I didn't want offend anyone and wholesale reversions are kind of a pet peeve of mine, haha. As for Miller's measurements, they are "correct" per her official website, which is likely the most reliable source we have.    Mbinebri   talk &larr; 15:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not especially impressed by people who make wholesale reverts and that's why I didn't do it at first but once an editor is making an effort to move things forward and not blocking others then it isn't too bad. You'll note that once I made the revert I then also (restored part of the edit) removed the Forum link which was the right thing to do and I'm willing to help move forward with other changes. -- Horkana (talk) 16:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Change of measurments? Link to the diff. -- Horkana (talk) 17:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, Horkana that's the edit I did not INTEND to make. Except perhaps reverting vandalism, I have *never* changed measurements in an article. Note that edit is not a revert, and not an editing error, but selectively targets particular numbers. I've changed my Wiki password. Thanks to you and Mbinebri for pointing out the problem! Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * No worries. Thanks for your (other) edits. -- Horkana (talk) 14:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Autolt
Please, have a look before cleaning some interesting data, is there anybody to control your control!!!! Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.5.137.0 (talk) 10:48, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Interesting" applies to about anything on the Web. That is not the criterion for adding to Wikipedia. Please read the guidelines such as the one I mentioned on WP:SPAM. Piano non troppo (talk) 10:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Funke Digital TV
Was this a failed attempt to clean up spam from the page? Your edit seems to have only moved things around, rather than deleting anything. -- Soap Talk/Contributions 01:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


 * How odd! Thank you. I see another editor has subsequently done their own deletions, though. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 02:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank's a lot for the review, I thought about that edit for a few seconds (max time anyone ever really spends thinking on huggle), but still hit before it really hit me. For mistakes like that feel free to talk to be on my talk page in the future, Happy editing!-- SKATER  Speak. 02:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok
I am new to this. I want to make clean up. That is what I am doing. (159.91.151.97 (talk) 03:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC))


 * Thanks for responding. You are making a huge number of great edits! That is very valuable to Wikipedia. However, there are also a couple issues.


 * The main issue is that you don't explain your edits in the "Edit Summary" (at the bottom of the editing page). Sometimes one or two words are enough. Nobody makes perfect edits every time, and the "Edit Summary" comment helps other editors understand how a problem happened. A good example is the one I just mentioned on your talk page, which is that in a couple places you were using the Wikipedia article itself (or rather a copy of it) as a reference! I only figured this out, because in one article "popcorn.oneindia.in" copied the Wikipedia markup language -- (" so many[who?] "). That's a perfect example of why edits need to be explained -- because no single editor is expected to catch everything!


 * I really want you to continue editing Wikipedia! Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 03:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The Host (film)
Hi, you edited the article, mostly in a better direction (thanks!). However, you removed a sentence from the start of the special effects section, which said: "While the budget was among the largest ever in a South Korean production, by international standards it was more modest." I remember writing parts of that article, and that was specifically included to link it with the previous section---which ends saying how the budget is really big for a South Korean film---and I think the article gets confusing without it. The next ref in the text (sort of) provides a citation for that part too; in it, the director discusses the budget limitations of the film and the effect they had on the special effects. Simply saying that the budget was limited doesn't help in clarifying anything, thus the explanatory text describing why there's no contradiction. Does it need some tweaking if I want to restore something to that effect in the text? Thanks. (October 23, 2009 by Bobet)


 * I know exactly what you mean; I'm ok, any way you prefer it. What went round and round in my head -- without any resolution -- was wondering whether the budget of a South Korean film was comparing apples-to-apples -- nor not. I guessed maybe three things were (all) possible: 1) It's simply cheaper to make a film in South Korea, 2) South Koreans are used to less elaborate presentations, so it's worthwhile noting when a South Korean film is especially expensive, 3) The South Korean film makers would love to sell to the international public, head-to-head with Hollywood, but they simply don't have the resources, distribution channels, etc. Are South Korean film makers trying to break into the international market? Would this be considered some sort of business success story because a "cheap" film successfully "competed with the big boys"? I wasn't sure. Finally, I was just reacting to the lack of sourcing (about my questions, lol), and the fact that the film cost had been mentioned elsewhere. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 21:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Lyrics
I was not aware of the fact concerning Lyrics Download.com. I have removed its name from the two songs in norwegian Wikipedia. Thank you very much for letting me know! It as allowed to cite Metrolyrics as a source? Best wishes! Mbakkel2 19 October 2009 14:45 (CEST)


 * You are welcome, and thank you!


 * A complaint that lawyers have about Wikipedia is that it sometimes allows breaking copyright laws. The Wiki policy is, specifically:
 * "However, if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. An example would be linking to a site hosting the lyrics of many popular songs without permission from their copyright holders."


 * The MetroLyrics site reads: "We take pride in ensuring artists, songwriters and music publishers are properly compensated for the use of their copyrighted lyrics."


 * My impression was that this is good enough for Wikipedia. However, I need to check to make sure.


 * (At one point "lyricwiki" was allowed as an external link, but not now:


 * "Unfortunately, lyricwiki is known to violate copyright, so we must verify that the lyrics they list are released into public domain or under GFDL in order to use them. Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)")


 * I'm going to ask one Moonriddengirl to comment, so we will both know for sure! Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 13:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi. I'm afraid Metrolyrics is about the same as lyricwiki. They have a rather lengthy explanation of why they think it's okay for them to post these lyrics at, but they also make very clear that they post lyrics without licensing: "Lyrics posted on metrolyrics.com are copyright of their rightfull owners. We receive lyrics directly from Labels, Independent Artists, and from site visitors. All lyrics are posted in our database unless specifically requested by rightfull copyright owners not to include them in our database." I believe that linking to their lyrics is therefore a WP:LINKVIO. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:05, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, Piano non troppo! Thank you very much! Mbakkel2 19:11, 19 October 2009

Diggiloo Thrush
I wonder if you can do me a favour? Is it allowed to cite Diggiloo Thrush as a quote (Some English Wikipedia articles do so)? Its content is a mixture of lyrics and information about the Eurovision Song Contest-entries from 1956, the performers, backing vocalists, conductors, composers and lyricists. Thank you very much. Best wishes! Mbakkel2 17:36 (CEST), 20 October 2009
 * Hi. These kinds of questions are best for Moonriddengirl, because she is not only an administrator, but has a major role in the WikiProject Copyright Cleanup. However it looks like Diggiloo Thrush is worse than metrolyrics or lyricwiki. For example, "...not all info can be trusted, as a lot of it is submitted by our visitors." ( !! )
 * She was very busy in the real world when I asked our question a couple days ago. But I think she assumed that I knew there are (now) no major English lyrics sites that can be quoted. I just spent time removing external links to lyric sites, and metrolyric was the only one I thought was ok. All the others (on the first page of Google search results) I'm pretty sure are not ok.
 * The basic problem is that artists own those lyrics. They wrote the song, the song belongs to them. Simple.
 * There is a school of Wiki thought that even linking to the lyrics on a band's official Internet page is a problem. But frankly, I never remove Wiki lyric links to those pages. It seems almost certain that the songwriter or whoever owns the song wants many people to look at it! Best Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 07:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, Piano ton troppo! Thank you very much! Your help has been of a great importance to me. I am now in a process of removing all the references to lyrics websites from the English Wikipedia articles I have created. Best regards! Mbakkel2 09:43, 21 October 209 (CEST)

Spam on Snow Patrol articles
Sorry, I was not aware of that, I was the one that had added the link to the band's official website to the related articles. Won't happen again. Suede67 (talk) 10:23, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * :) Suede67 (talk) 21:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

October 2009
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to WJLA-TV, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you.  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 23:28, 24 October 2009 (UTC) 23:28, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did to KCWY-DT. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 23:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC) 23:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As you well know, I consider your edits vandalism. This matter was brought before arbitration, which you refused to respond to in any way.
 * In addition to the previous issues with your edits, you reverted an edit that only removed scheduling information. Wikipedia should "not list upcoming events, current promotions, or current schedules". I don't understand why you are allowed to flagrantly abuse your editing privileges, but I'm going to find out. Piano non troppo (talk) 00:36, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Re: You are unresponsive to...
As you know, I consider your edits vandalism and will revert them and warn you for that vandalism. If you are going to remove information, you MUST get consensus from WP:TVS first and then after getting that consensus remove the information from all pages, not just two. Consensus first. Also, don't threaten, just makes you look like the bad guy. -  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 00:48, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You refused to accept mediation. What is your reason? Piano non troppo (talk) 00:50, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Because mediation isn't necessary. I don't see how mediation will solve anything.  I am not going to change my opinion and you don't have any form of consensus (mediation isn't consensus) and refuse to go to WP:TVS.  So, mediation is just a pointless endeavor.  Why won't you establish consensus? -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 00:54, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:TVS does not have the authority to override Wikipedia policies or guidelines. You feel that it does. That is the conflict. You interpret the Wikipedia policies and guidelines, but only as secondary to opinions of WP:TVS. (And those opinions, over the years, are largely yours.) It's been explained to you that Wikipedia polices and guidelines have priority, but you refuse to acknowledge this. Piano non troppo (talk) 01:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Aw, you took your conflict and vandalism to ANI. How sweet.  Look, you aren't going to change my opinion, whether you have an admin take away my TWINKLE or even block me.  You are in the wrong and if I don't revert you, someone else will.  You are removing information, without consensus, on select pages.  Why aren't you removing the information on all pages, I wonder?  Maybe because you would be reverted and blocked in a heartbeat.  Oh and the "opinions" of myself are those of others, they just don't want to put up with the constant arguements that goes with a discussion about them, so they let it go.  You are in the wrong and now you are trying to get me in trouble for your vandalism.  Nicely done. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 01:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is consonant with your other misbehavior and misrepresentation. I took nothing to ANI regarding your latest edits. I only responded to you here, and to User talk:Vicenarian. Piano non troppo (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah right, it is clear your actions lead to the ANI post. You refuse to establish any form of consensus and my reverting of you and marking you as vandalism has struck a nerve and lead to some revenge against me for doing so.  When you go to AN or ANI to establish consensus, bringing WP:TVS members into the fold, I will consider your edits anything else but vandalism.  Right now that is what I consider them and mediation isn't going to work....and you can "make a case" against me all you want, it isn't going to change my opinion either. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 02:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I honestly have no idea what you are referring to regarding ANI. I notified Vicenarian only because he was named in the mediation request. I'm reacting primarily to your feeling that other editors and I need to get WP:TVS approval before making changes to any of (the thousands of) articles which you apparently feel you -- as a prominent member of WP:TVS -- control. I understand you are upset about having your edits changed, but I feel you are working under a misconception that that a WikiProject has a right to dictate content in any article it chooses to label as "its own". If that were true, WikiProjects -- taken together -- would be able to revert most changes in most articles as vandalism! Several editors have pointed out that WP:TVS is supporting edits that are: WP:COATRACK, WP:BIO, WP:V, WP:NOTINHERITED, WP:DIRECTORY.
 * You misunderstand me completely if you believe I want you to leave Wikipedia. There are occasionally established editors where I wonder whether their overall contribution is positive, but you are not one! Your contribution is huge. I see from Kateshortforbob's comment that you have announced your retirement. I strongly encourage you to reconsider. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 20:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)