User talk:Picapica/archive0502

talk page comment
You want convincing evidence, I don't know what qualifies as that. All I know is that we want to improve Wikipedia to a better GFDL 2.0 license when it is created. This would happen automatically. Secondly we want to have a form of "true" copyleft where information can be free and not just tied to a single license. Using the CC-by-sa in addition to the GFDL allows our information to be shared more broadly, including with WikiTravel. FWIW, Jimbo Wales supports this, as I asked him personally this past weekend at the NYC WikiMeet. Obviously if you don't agree with this ideology, then you won't find all this very convincing, but it doesn't get much more complicated than this. So unless I hear otherwise, I'll just assume you are unconvinced and that you desire to do nothing addition. – Ram-Man (comment) (talk)  01:49, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Irish placenames
Please do not change the introduction format of Irish placenames. The format (Ainm bhaile in Irish) is the preferred format in use for the most part. The other format, which I originally used myself, is indeed still in use in some articles, but should be changed to the above, rather than the opposite action. If the English meaning is known and not discussed in the article text, use the format (Ainm bhaile in Irish, meaning "Irish placename meaning").

If you aren't happy with the suggested format above, we could see which format has consensus at Irish Wikipedians' notice board.

Thanks!

zoney &#09827; talk 16:54, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Fair enough: I'm not unhappy at all with the suggested format, Zoney. Just trying to be consistent, having observed e.g. Irish: Cill Chainnigh to be the more commonly used of the two formats. Seems I must have been unfortunate in the sample I looked at! -- Picapica 18:12, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Irish towns
Great work going through all the articles fixing things! zoney &#09827; talk 22:00, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * No probs, Zoney. My pleasure (Phew! I thought you were going to be mad at me for meddling...) -- Picapica 22:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ireland
As regards:
 * are you really saying that the UK consists of three countries plus "a part"?

Yes, that is what I am saying. I understand some feel differently and I respect that, but I do not consider there to be such thing as "Northern Irish". Northern Ireland is part of Ireland (despite being within the UK still politically), people there are Irish (as much as someone in England is English, in Scotland - Scottish, in Wales - Welsh) albeit with the disclaimer that they aren't necessarily Irish in the sense of having citizenship in the Irish state (that is personal preference). They are just as much British as anyone in GB if they so recognise. Because of the issue of Irish also meaning "of the Irish state", non-nationalist people in NI are left in the situation of usually just saying they are British, from NI, or "Northern Irish" (less usual). Ultimately, one half of NI don't really have a national identity (British is not a national identity - it's a citizenship matter), as they have been disenfranchised by the use of "Irish" to mean "of the Republic of Ireland". The rugby teams are a perfect example of how, ignoring political jurisdictions, there are four nations in the British Isles. There was no real issue with being British citizen, but also Irish nationality, before 1922. zoney &#09827; talk 10:40, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * But you are here discussing nations and states, not countries. The islands of Britain and Ireland (however defined) are between them the home to two states, four nations, and five countries. -- Picapica 15:45, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Irish geography/places
Some people would like to see Republic of Ireland (or NI) unambiguously everywhere anything Irish is mentioned.

To compromise, I have attempted, as much as possible with town articles etc., to link both Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland and Ireland.

So Cork would be a city in the Republic of Ireland, on Ireland's south coast. (That's obviously a shortened example).

NI is even more controversial, but it's pretty acceptable using the format above (NI for political location, Ireland for geographic location). So Bushmills is a town in County Antrim, Northern Ireland. It is located on Ireland's north coast.

I trust this now seems clearer?

If you see an RoI with no Ireland linked in a geographic article, please attempt to insert a link to the latter somewhere.

By and large, we have to accept the use of RoI rather than Ireland (for the state), except where clearly unambiguous. (Even then, we have to use Ireland ).

I'm not a fanatic about all these details (I'm sure it seems that way from my detailed comments), but I discovered that it is important to pay attention to all these nuances on Irish/Northern Ireland articles, as many readers and some other editors are picky.

zoney &#09827; talk 10:50, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

National routes
Hi there,

Just a note. When you're adding details of routes serving places in Ireland, you should link the "N number" itself, e.g. N7. All routes up to N9 have articles, and eventually the others (at least the primary routes) should also (the road articles provide useful linking pages between the places served, describe the route, and also remark on history/upgrades).

To add a link to Roads in Ireland, I usually link "road", as in N7 road (or route). Or indeed National Primary Route (this will possibly evolve as a separate article eventually) or National Secondary Route.

Regards, zoney &#09827; talk 12:28, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Mea culpa. I know I've not been consistent in this area -- had been meaning to go back and check but never got a round 2IT :(. By the way, do you know when (and why) the N57 became the N26? -- Picapica 12:41, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, all primary routes greater than N25 (primary routes are now numbered up to N33) were more recent designations. I presume the powers than be decided Ballina should be on a primary route, not a secondary one, hence a reclassification.
 * I would be interested to know details on such a reclassification. I have no facts to go by except that I know that these higher numbers were later additions to the number system. Most are obviously different from existing routes, in that they are short stubs to ports, Cork airport, etc. Ballina may be the only true population centre added.
 * Is N57 no longer in existence as a classification? (I couldn't find it on a map. The N58 does connect to Foxford, so I would have expected to see N57 in the area if it was still used as a designation.
 * Thanks for bringing this to my attention, it warrants further investigation.
 * zoney &#09827; talk 13:29, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Clarification to some degree. The routes N26 to N31 (plus an "N"50) were first set out in S.I. No. 209/1994: ROADS ACT, 1993 (DECLARATION OF NATIONAL ROADS) ORDER, 1994.. The original order in 1977 only laid out primary routes up to N25. Other orders in 1980  and 1986  only added a couple of secondary routes and amended the route of some existing primaries.
 * I presume an even more recent SI sets out N32 and N33.
 * Still no explicit mention of what route the N57 used to take, there's no mention of "reclassification" (the SI merely states the details of the new route numbers). N57 needless to say is "missing" from the 1994 SI!
 * zoney &#09827; talk 13:56, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The latest NRA road list I have seen (dated 2002) lists the N26 and shows no N57... except that whoever compiled if forgot about the renumbering so that it still mentions junctions with the "N57" at Swinford (N5), Foxford (N58), and Ballina (N59)! (confirming that the old N57 and new N26 follow identical routes). Older maps show Swinford-Foxford-Ballina still labelled N57 -- Picapica 14:25, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * (Last sentence edited to remove no-longer accessible link to one such map) -- Picapica 10:11, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)