User talk:PimRijkee/Archive 2011

Mike Ormsby/ 'Never Mind The Balkans, Here's Romania' / 'Grand Bazar Romania'
Dear Pim,

Thank you for your very helpful and considerate message earlier, which seems to suggest a solution, if I understand you correctly: it might be possible to propose a main page about the book, as opposed to the author?

That sounds fair enough, although, be advised, most reviews/plugs of my book end up talking about the author, such as: ''"The must-read primer on Romania and Romanians by former BBC journalist Mike Ormsby"' (more on this quote below)

Another reviewer said: "Ormsby's writing is the point where reportage meets literature".

These sort of comments helped the book to become 'required reading' for American undergrads studying Romania/Romanian at Duke University in the USA. I forgot to mention this but can probably verify it, as Duke's Romanian professor wrote to me to say: "Having your stories in both languages is perfect for the language/culture course I teach, because you have really nailed my tribe."

Now to respond to your individual points….

RE-Notability: The 'one' link you followed, provided by me, was to my publisher's website. I posted that link because it connects to half a dozen sentences from literary critics, mainly online versions of print press reviews, since 2008. I thought one link would be enough. But if, as you seem to suggest, it's not enough, I can provide 40 (forty) more links connecting to a wider range of reviews, online. I don't want to print them all here in 'talk', because it will take too much space, but they exist and if you think they would help establish notability, I can send them to you later and you can check.

I'll send you 6 links for now, here, for a taste. Most are in Romanian, like this one from 'Cotidianul' newspaper (a Romanian daily broadsheet). It's a long article about the book, and me. Their angle is: "We found a British Caragiale" ( = Romania's Mark Twain):

http://www.cotidianul.ro/romania_si_a_gasit_un_caragiale_britanic-49314.html

Here's another link, to a very long academic-style essay from Observatorul (another broadsheet, with a website) about the book/me. Romanian critics tend to get quite intellectual about the book, and seem to enjoy dissecting it, perhaps because it chimes with their own 'angst' about what it means to be Romanian, and partly because it gives them a chance to analyse a foreigner (me). Often, their angle, as here, is: This Ormsby fellow knows us better than we know ourselves:

http://www.observatorcultural.ro/Romania-suprafata-si-profunzime*articleID_22875-articles_details.html

Here's a third, from the Romanian Cultural Centre in London, a brief plug in their 'recommended books' section, nothing fancy, they just reprinted the blurb from the back cover:

http://www.romanianculturalcentre.org.uk/recommended-books/2008/08/never-mind-the-balkans-here-s-romania-mike-ormsby/

Here's a fourth, from Time Out Bucharest, standard review format. It's long and positive but at the end it says something like "Then again, you rather wish Ormsby would stay home, given the stuff he sees and relates about us!" : http://www.timeoutbucuresti.ro/carti/6351/2768984/despre-romania-cu-pasiune.html

Here's a fifth, from a travel website in Australia, aimed at Americans but run by a Romanian-turned-Ozzie, who loves the book and quotes extensively from it, to boost tourism (and presumably, his profits!) He gives the book its own webpage plus links to and from that paged, throughout his website. By the way, this is where the earlier quote comes from, IE: The must-read primer on Romania and Romanians by former BBC journalist Mike Ormsby, and also:"'Never Mind The Balkans' highlights the confluence of Romania's deeply-entrenched cultural traditions as they meet the new freedoms, temptations and commercialism that comes with being the newest nation in the European Union" :

http://www.restromania.com/MikeOrmsby_NeverMindTheBalkans.htm

Below, one more link, to a cultural website in English run by/for ex-pats in Bucharest (I've no COI with them or it): http://www.vivid.ro/index.php/issue/95/page/books/tstamp/1220956869

OK, you get the picture, I have another 34 of those links. To be frank, the Internet in Romania was buzzing within hours of my book being published. I was stunned by the response, so was my publisher, because, she had rejected the book when I first approached her, telling me :"It's very good, but Romania is not ready for this." Next day, Romania's biggest publisher had offered me a deal after reading 3 pages. So I called the first publisher for advice and she said: "I'll publish you, please come back. I don't want anyone spoiling your work." She's very professional, knows the trade.

The initial public buzz lasted months, including radio and TV, and is still strong. E.G. I got a message on Facebook today, nearly 3 years after publication, from a young Romanian stranger:"Your book is the best thing I have read in months. I forgot dinner altogether and didn't get up until I was finished. I love your wit and writing! Oh, and hi, I;m Dan : )"

Part of the reason for all this fuss is that the book is widely considered to be very funny/very touching but sharp & easy to read since the stories last about 5 pages, max. It can be read in one sitting (250 pages or so). So, that's my answer to your point about notability. I'm not sure if 40+ reviews qualifies as enough notability for Wiki, but I hope so.

Now to your 'more specific remarks':

RE-Google search links/templates Sorry about that, fair point. I'm not sure quite how I would use those 'templates' you mention, but I am willing to learn. Thanks. Would I have to make a template for, say, all 40 of the links mentioned above, maybe as footnotes? if so, no problem, but i doubt that's what you mean, so please advise if I am mistaken.

RE-pages of an institution (www.psi.org), You're quite right to mention this. I only linked to PSI to prove the NGO exists. Now I see your point and yes, the PSI website has no mention of the film i scripted, even though that NGO and USAID funded it, big-time. This omission is probably more a reflection on the capacities and institutional memory of your average huge American NGO, than the film itself. It puzzles me, even so. It's frustratingly difficult for me to prove, online, that I wrote the script. The only place I am credited for writing Hey Mr DJ is onscreen and on the DVD box. How come? Good question. The film has wide coverage online, but my name is never mentioned by those who know, because it would undermine their claim that the film was the first feature, ever, to be 100% Rwandan. That's their line. They did not even tell the BBC World Service, which reported on the Hillywood Festival, that an ex-BBC World Service British guy living in Rwanda wrote it! (An 'inconvenient truth' perhaps?). The only way I can prove I wrote the film, if you think it's allowable, would be to persuade the film's Rwandan editor to credit me on his website. He's a decent sort and might do that, by now. Would that be enough for Wiki?

By the way, the You Tube links I posted on my Wiki page to the 2 'Congo' videos do actually provide verification of my involvement, but only onscreen, after about 8 minutes, when the films end. In the documentary film, I am credited as reporter/producer. In the music drama film, I am credited as writer/director.

RE-''Subjectivity/ "brutal"': Yes, fair enough, but be advised - the first frame of the Congo documentary shows a young child being medicated for horrendous injuries, because someone had accused him of sorcery and tried to burn him alive. This happens a lot in Congo as the film explains. If 'brutal' is too subjective a word for such abuse, then OK. I'm not here to challenge Wiki's rules.

RE Wiki's 'child abuse' page: Yes, I could edit that, and will try, great idea, thanks. I'm starting to grasp how Wiki works, from the inside! The torture and murder of 'child witches' in Congo shames the country, the continent, and us all. My next book is about this.

RE- Wiki's Rwanda page: Not much I could add, in general, although the film 'Hey, Mr DJ' fits the 'culture' section. A moot point, see above!

RE-Wiki's 'Romanian Lit.' page: I be willing to edit this too, but that I'm no expert and have little to offer. The only way I could be of service there would be to risk a COI: I could edit Wiki's 'Caragiale' page (he was Romania's Mark Twain, remember) adding that a) one of Caragiale's stories is mentioned in 'Never Mind The Balkans' by Mike Ormsby, and, b) several Romanian critics now compare Ormsby's ironic writing style with Caragiale's. But I'm not this is very relevant or whether it would be COI?

RE: be bold! Thank you for the encouragement, but I would rather not 'be bold!', because I might come across as conceited and risk deletion. I would prefer to be honest and get this right.

RE-Creative professionals: I believe my book/its author fulfil Wiki's bullet points 2, 3 and 4 in the 'writers' section of your Notability criteria:

2. The person is known for originating a significant new… technique < The bittersweet and very short stories in 'Never Mind TB/Grand Bazar Ro.' are a first for Romania, in that a foreigner has 'nailed' the country and Romanians in an unsual 'factual fiction' format, generally considered new/different, there.

3. ''The person has created… a significant or well-known work… that has been the subject of… an independent feature-length film or…. of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews'' < Never Mind TB'/Grand Bazar Ro. are significant and increasingly well-known works in Romania and beyond. The book appears in 2 languages, remember, which is helping it to 'travel' in the Romanian diaspora and among Romanophiles. < My original Hey Mr DJ screenplay became a feature film, the first to be acted, filmed, produced, edited, directed and distributed by Rwandans in their history. So, I fit the bill as its writer, but verifying this online is tricky. See above.

4.The person's work… (c) has won significant critical attention < I can provide at least 40 (forty) links to reviews of the book(s), as mentioned above.

Just in case you're wondering, Romanian publishers cannot yet sell on Amazon due to Romania's VAT laws (or rather, lack thereof). The book did appear briefly there after an enterprising 3rd party (not linked to me or my publisher) exported a batch to UK. It soon sold out but has not reappeared since, due to the seller's overheads I presume.

To wrap up.... clearly I'm not Stephen King, so maybe I do not warrant a 'personal' page. I am starting to see things your way, or, rather, Wiki's way, and it's an interesting experience. It reminds me of court reporting, as a journalist!

However, Never Mind TB/Grand Bazar Ro. is slowly-but-surely becoming a cult/mainstream read in Romania and abroad, is on a US Uni. syllabus, and, I believe, warrants a mention, however briefly. It will be reprinted for the 3rd time in May.

Later this year, 2 of my stories will be published in the New Europe Writers anthology series, published by a small company in Poland. The editors contacted me for permission to reprint one of my stories and commissioned a new one. So, things are moving, I hope. It feels like a step up thewriter ladder, at least.

I'll stop here. You are probably chewing your knuckles and wishing you had never answered my post. I hope you answer this one : )

Thank you Pim, and best wishes from N'Djamena, the very hot and very dusty capital of Chad. PS. I'm not quite sure how to use the 'talk' links, or how how to sign off, but here goes... MikeOrmsby (talk) --Mike Ormsby (talk) 02:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)--Mike Ormsby

Mike Ormsby
Dear Pim, Will you have time to read and respond to my message above? Or should I ask someone else? Perhaps I should re-edit my as-yet-unpublished page, with 40 footnotes to test 'notability', and ask for a fresh assessment? Or, should I write a page about the book, not about me? I'm not sure what you mean by 'secondary source/personal page'. IE. how can I create a personal page on Wiki, if you feel I lack 'notability' in the first place? Please advise. Thanks. --Mike Ormsby (talk) 10:01, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Mike Ormsby
Dear Pim, You saint, thanks. I thought I'd frightened you off! Excellent. It's SO nice to visit a civilized forum like this. I await your thoughts, but no rush. Will check the link you recc'd. Thanks again, have a nice w/e. --Mike Ormsby (talk) 14:04, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Mike Ormsby
Dear Pim, By the way, if you wish to get some idea about why Never Mind The Balkans, Here's Romania is making a bit of a splash, you can read two (very) short stories from it here:http://www.compania.ro/index.php?id=39#c367. That's my publisher's website. When you get to the page, scroll down 2 or 3 inches until you can see about a dozen lines of English text which begins: So, how does it feel... to survive a nightmare but wake up with a headache? The blurb ends with: ''Never mind the Balkans, here's Romania. Close your guide book, meet the people.'' You'll see, just to the right, a link for Short stories. Click that and it generates a .PDF file, containing two of them. The first story is called When We get Organised (it's about a trip to the Post Office in Bucharest) and the second is Lupa Capitolina (about trying to help a scabby street dog). They're not the best in the collection but they'll give you a taste of form and content. Most Romanians react like this: ''Oh my God, he got us, it's so true! We're just like that!'' Then again, a minority of proud nationalists probably want me strung up. You'll need about 3 minutes to read each story, they're dead short. Just an idea. All the best and thank you, again. --Mike Ormsby (talk) 15:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

'Never Mind The Balkans, Here's Romania / Grand Bazar Romania'
Dear Pim, Just seen your latest note, thank you very much. I look forward to your examples/tips. I will try to narrow down my verifiable 'sources', as instructed, during the next few days. Thanks again. Mike --Mike Ormsby (talk) 15:13, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

'Never Mind The Balkans, Here's Romania'
Dear Pim, Just saw your most recent message, thank you. Will digest and revert! By the way, I was browsing for examples of authors and journalists on Wiki and I spotted this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envera_Selimović What do you think of it? I used to train journalists in Bosnia in the mid-90s, so I got curious. I've never heard of this person, but, fair enough, time passes and journalists move on/new ones arrive. However, I can't help wonder why she merits such an adulatory page? She interviewed a few VIPs and won an award? And? How did it get past Wiki editors? It says 'Citation needed', but that's all. I'm puzzled. Mike --Mike Ormsby (talk) 18:07, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

'Never Mind the Balkans, Here's Romania'
Dear Pim, I have started the draft, as per your instructions, as you will see if you visit the page, now renamed 'Never Mind the Balkans, Here's Romania'. I have written to my contact (a Professor) at Duke Univerity asking her about a PDF/verification for 'required reading' etc. No mention on the university's website. I can provide the cover image of the book, I have a nice little thumbnail photo, but how do I upload it? I tried and failed. I could upload it, yes, but it turned into a page about the cover, entitled 'Cover of Never Mind the Balkans..'? Please advise. By the way, i notice Wiki has a Romanian language site too. Given that so many of the reviews etc are in Romanian, may i suggest that after we create the Stub-Class page in English, we create a Stub-Class page for the Romanian site? My wife is Romanian and so she could help draft a translation for WP's Romanian editors to look at? I guess, if the English page exists already, they might be willing to include a page on the Romanian WP? just an idea. I have a thumbnail of the Romanian cover too, almost identical. 'll continue with the English draft, each evening this week. Less is more ;) Please advise as and when. Thank you, best wishes, Mike. --Mike Ormsby (talk) 23:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Never Mind The Balkans...
Pim, Your user page says 'no email address supplied'? Please advise? Thanks for your comments. Yes, I prefer your rigorous approach! --Mike Ormsby (talk) 08:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Pim, I just sent you an email, but still cannot work out how to load an image. Sorry! Pls see my email. Mike --Mike Ormsby (talk) 10:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Timbuktu
I've noticed all your good work on Timbuktu. I will help you with the article - but not immediately as I want to first make a few changes to the article on Taoudenni that I'm been researching. Timbuktu is the most famous town in Mali and I assume the article gets lots of hits. I have several books and journal articles that deal with the history of the town - and I can visit a specialist library if necessary. Although I've been to Mali I haven't visited Timbuktu - although members of my family have done so. Best wishes -Aa77zz (talk) 21:57, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for you note. When writing about the origins here are some thoughts:
 * Timbuktu not mentioned by early Arabic authors – unlike Gao and Walata
 * The earlier mention is by Battuta – visited 1352-1353. Account completed in 1355. He says very little – suggesting that the town wasn't yet very important.(Dunn says this)
 * Timbuktu on Catalan Atlas of 1375 (as Tenbuch)
 * Al-Sadi in his account and says that town was founded in the 5th century of the hijra – where 500AH corresponds to 1106-1107AD. ie early in the 12th century. Now Al Sadi could easily be wrong as he was writing 450 years after the event.

So in the 12th century the town wasn't important but it became important in the second half of the 13th century. How about putting "early 12th century" in the lede and starting the timeline slightly later. Also I don't think Battuta should be part of the "myth" – his travelogue wasn't really known about in Europe until the 20th century. Perhaps he should go in the Origins. Leo's book was very well known– and he certainly helped create the myth. Best wishes Aa77zz (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I wrote the above before I had read your new para. A huge improvement. Aa77zz(talk) 01:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Confusing a 'sobre tone' with accuracy
I've noticed your efforts on the Manly-Warringah history article and I have to say they are quite poor edits. You have removed a lot of text which is neither fan-written nor inaccurate. It is not fan-talk to describe play or a player as superior to their opponents, nor is it wrong to describe a spite-filled aggressive game as such. Your edits have removed a lot of valuable context especially regarding the relative strengths of the club's opponents. Not all wins and losses are equal. Some are more important or more famous, but your edits have removed descriptions of those more important contests. If a team is undefeated, then describing it as unstoppable is mere fact, not exaggeration or fan-atical. Describing a 16-0 win as comprehensive is actually quite restrained, and describing a struggle for consistancy adds important detail. Wikipedia is meant to be written in a factual tone - there is nothing about a 'sober' tone. Removing all the interesting detail in an article does not improve its accuracy, it just removes information making it less accurate and more boring. In fact an article's tone is allowed to change according to its subject, so an articlre about a sporting club's history should be expected to read more like a sporting article from a newspaper. Obviously there are some peacock terms that should be edited, but I believe most of what you've deleted should be reverted. However, before I do that I'd like to see you defend your edits, because I believe you are genuinely confused between fanatical language that should be edited (not deleted, edited) and good sporting description which should be celebrated. Mdw0 (talk) 07:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Mdw0, thanks for your comment. Although I usually steer clear of sports articles, I visited the M-W history article when I joined in the Backlog Elimination drive, checking articles tagged with the 'written from a fan's POV'-message. My edits were an effort to eliminate the worries of editors that the tone was not in accordance with WP guidelines (the tag had been up there for years), worries I agreed with upon reading the article. In my opinion, we should avoid giving our own interpretation to events and stay away from describing events or teams as 'unstoppable' or 'spite-filled', unless they are qualified as such by reliable sources. WP:UNDUE, WP:TONE and WP:NPOV seem to support this impartial tone - although I admit you are right in using commons sense when applying these guidelines. There are very few inline citations in the text, which made it very hard for me to verify whether the qualifications in the article were taken from a source.
 * Re removing context, passages like "[Two seasons] were dominated by an unstoppable Eastern Suburbs club, winning the Minor Premierships by 8 and 10 points. Against this juggernaut [..]" provide unnecessary detail - the article is about W-M, not another club. It should at least be shortened. Summarizing, Mdw0, I did not want the article to become 'boring', I merely want it to read less like the club's monthly magazine. Honestly, I think most of my edits did just that. But, and I assume you are a fan (correct me if I'm wrong, I took it from this edit summary; "Manly gave as good as they got, and they always do. This tries to blame one side for it"), I wholeheartedly agree with you that a 'sobre tone' was the wrong thing to say. So, feel free to be bold and edit the text as you think would be appropriate. I do think we can come to a compromise and end up with a better article. Cheers, Pim Rijkee (talk) 11:04, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that some of the text is too colourful, but its been softened a lot - you should have seen it before. It really was 'club monthly magazine' style. This whole section is short on referencing, and that is its main fault, not so much the fanview. I'll do some edits on it - as an example I'd leave in unstoppable, but edit out juggernaut. As for my fan loyalties, I am one of those fans of another Sydney club who enjoys hating Manly. When I said they gave as good as they got, this was against a Cronulla side that was infamous for winning the fight as well as the game. The Manly fans had blamed all the incidents in that Grand final - which is well publicised as one of the most vicious games in the sport's history - on the Cronulla side. I was implying that Manly were, and are, more than capable of playing dirty too. Mdw0 (talk) 00:02, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Sentences
Pim, I've come across a case where your sentence is too close to the source - it is an easy mistake to make. In your on 9 Jan 2010 you added the sentence: "Intellectually, and to a large extent economically, Timbuktu now entered into a long period of decline." The same sentence is used by Hunwickhere.

I notice that Hunwick's article has been copied in its entirety by. Best wishes Aa77zz (talk) 09:42, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Euthanasia Coaster for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the articleEuthanasia Coaster is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should bedeleted.

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DYK for Euthanasia Coaster
Gatoclass (talk) 06:02, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Tarzan Boy (1985)
Well done on the merge. I appreciate the assistance with that. I did't want to do the move myself unilaterally, so I'm glad you agreed with the request. While it doesn't seem like it would be a likely search term, an alternative to deleting the article is a redirect to Tarzan Boy. Thanks.--Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 21:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Euthanasia Coaster.jpg
Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:Euthanasia Coaster.jpg. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the file description page and edit it to include afair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Euthanasia Coaster for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the articleEuthanasia Coaster is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should bedeleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Euthanasia Coaster(2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Night of the Big Wind talk  21:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Request
You are requested to visit the page Talk:Delhi Public School, Bathinda and remove the tag, if you are satisfied with the point mentioned. arunbandana 13:38, 10 November 2011 (UTC) — Precedingunsigned comment added by Arunbandana (talk • contribs)