User talk:Pixelface/Fiction Survey 2009

Commentary on the draft
I'm left wondering where I would put my Grand Unifying Theory of Fiction (which is basically "Apply WP:WAF and see if you get anything half-decent out of it"). I initially skipped straight to the "other questions" section because I had read the instructions as "Should one and only one standard.. if yes, skip ahead" without leaving any commentary. Even now that I understand it it still seems odd because I would put the exact same thing for each major section. I'm wondering if it's a good idea to break it down into so many pieces. Nifboy (talk) 02:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Draft question
Since it's in userspace, and I'd like to be polite, is this merely a single person draft, or would you mind if it was edited? - jc37 06:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I would actually appreciate it if many people edit it. The first draft is just a format that I would prefer. I would like fill-in-the-blank questions. I don't want any loaded questions. I would like sub-pages for each category topic. I would like a separate area for discussion. I would like an area for examples. I would like an area for AFD trends. In order to make the survey shorter, I was thinking of removing the questions about Category:Folkloristic characters, Category:YouTube videos, Category:Viral videos, Category:Radio characters, Category:Puppets, Category:Advertising characters, and Category:Theatre characters &mdash; since each of those categories contain less than 500 articles. I was also thinking of removing the questions about fictional works where a guideline regarding those fictional works already exists (although I think the survey could be used to tell if those guidelines still have consensus). In the first draft, I just wanted to cover as many areas that I could think of. Please, edit away :) --Pixelface (talk) 08:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello! I am not entirely sure how to fill this out? Best, --A NobodyMy talk 02:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Fiction Survey 2009
I've rewritten this and trimmed it down to 10 questions. I personally think it's ready to be presented to the community, but any edits, comments, criticisms, or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you. --Pixelface (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I've removed all answers, but they can be seen here. --Pixelface (talk) 14:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Needs a "general" answer
There are separate characters, locations, episodes and "things". Perhaps there should be an optional "general", catch-all inclusion answer instead of filling all three different questions. While episodes and characters are very common wikicreatures, all other "things" aren't as common and their inclusion can be made subordinate to the first two. NVO (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

"Notability"
What do you consider evidence of notability for... - Does this presume that notability is the only inclusion criterion? Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself and answering "AFD trends" but from what I've seen a common argument is that the run-of-mill elements (ie. random episode x), not just the exceptional, should be developed as articles. WP:Notability does say "notability is an inclusion criterion". Perhaps What should the inclusion criteria be for fictional characters? --maclean 16:30, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Along these lines, I think a better approach (which I think Pixel had at one point) was to ask first, "When should elements of type X be included in WP" and then secondly "When should elements of type X be given their own article on WP?" Inclusion and having its own article are two different facets which unfortunately WP:N comingles and makes difficult to deal with.  --M ASEM  16:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The first draft didn't use the word "notability" at all. It asked about specific categories of fictional topics and asked about article/list/redirect. I thought I'd try this version. I'll see what I can come up with, but please do edit the page if you want to. --Pixelface (talk) 00:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Maclean25, this essay focuses to much on the mere guideline notability, and completely ignores universally accepted policies such as verifiability, no original research, etc.
 * I personally like Pixel faces older version. I personally don't think notability or any policy should be mentioned explicitly. Ikip (talk) 11:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I like fill-in-the-blank questions, and in that draft I intentionally avoided using the word "notability" and all the baggage that comes with that word. But that first draft was described as "too long" and "byzantine" and "jesuitical in complexity", and I guess it was all those things. Fill-in-the-blank questions could still be used in this shorter version though. --Pixelface (talk) 01:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite
I made the boldest rewrite yet. As Maclean25 wrote above, I changed the words to "Inclusion" and made the questions more open ended. I based many of my questions on Pixelface's earlier, more open ended, drafts.

I changed "character elements" to "character subject"

I explained what a redirect for new editors

I removed the "5 to 10" requirement, and changed it to an unspecified number.

I highlighted the "don't write "as per with ~ "" Ikip (talk) 11:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your edits! I removed your redirect explanation, because sometimes editors will create new redirects, and sometimes editors will turn an article into a redirect and not really merge any information. I did link to WP:REDIRECT though if new editors don't know what a redirect is. I made it "a few AFDs" if that's okay? And thank you for bolding that, I appreciate it! --Pixelface (talk) 01:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts
I can see a couple points where confusion could set in.

A "list" can be a part of an article or a page of its own. So the answer to "when to split a list from the main article" is: Due to length, or due to being able to better present the infirmation (both being due to presentation of the information). So asking, will likely either get a restatement of this, or examples of how such lists can be presented : )

And this applies to lists of characters, locations, objects, concepts, volumes, episodes, etc.

Also, "redirects are cheap", so I doubt if anyone really cares about whether such are created or not. The main point of them is navigation, so I can see concerns about "minor" fictional constructs (characters, objects, etc.) each having their own redirect. But pinning down "minor" is often a challenge : )

One thing that should probably be added is a question about references, and what editors consider "verifiable reliable sources" when it comes to fiction-related pages. Both quantity and quality.

I hope this helps : ) - jc37 00:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for your input :) --Pixelface (talk) 05:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I streamlined/standardised some of the questions a bit.

One thing that perhaps should be broadened is the "episodes" section. Essentially, it's covering "works of an episodic nature", and could include television, radio, movie serials, comic books, prose serial articles (such as in the pulps of the 20s and 30s), etc. - jc37 11:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks.


 * Television episodes seems to be a large dispute, so that's why I asked specifically about them. My first draft did ask about radio characters, comic books, and comic book issues. My first draft also mentioned items and concepts. Notability (serial works) is marked failed, but I suppose a survey could still ask about serial works. --Pixelface (talk) 11:37, 14 February 2009 (UTC)