User talk:Ploversegg/Archive 1

Chronology of the ancient Near East needs footnotes
Welcome to Wikipedia. I appreciate your work on Chronology of the ancient Near East. Could I ask you to please footnote your work?? The editors and readers need to be able to link back a qualified published reference. See Verifiability and Footnotes for more details. Thanks, and welcome! MapMaster (talk) 16:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Kings pages categories
Hi Ploversegg,

I don't know of any standard formats for kings' pages, but the only category you really need for a king's page is xxx kings/xxx people/xxx rulers, whichever there is for that group. These sub-categories are including in all the larger categories, so including larger categories such as Ancient Near East is not necessary. (And if every single article were included in that big category, it would become sort of unnavigable.) And perhaps you could also create some sort of subpage in the Chronology category for the ANE chronology stuff, because that covers a lot of ground as well (although that's not really my field).

Sumerophile (talk) 18:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Query about the Old Assyrian kingdom.
Ploversegg, do you have any information about the Old Assyrian kingdom (Shamshi-Adad I et al)? I notice you haven't edited the Kings of Assyria page and that's the only list of OA kings I can find. Blueberrybuttermilkpancakes (talk) 02:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm also confused about the Assyrian Middle kingdom on the Chronology page because I can't find Tiglath-Pileser I. Maybe I'm missing something?... Blueberrybuttermilkpancakes (talk) 03:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, information on early Assyrian chronlogy is pretty sketchy. For example, Shamshi-Adad I wasn't even Assyrian. He was an Amorite who built a nice but short empire in the area (including Mari) and Ashur was became a vassal state of that. Then the Assyrians co-opted him into their king list. So ... thats why it's not in the Chronology article, which is designed for stuff with firm attestation. A non-wiki site which does a fair job of covering that is

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/MainListsMiddleEast.htm

at least they are pretty good at ruler order etc.

As for Tiglath-Pileser I, he falls into the iffy "dark ages" between the Middle Assyrian and Neo-Assyrian kindoms where chrono data is almost as sketchy as for the Old Assyrian rulers. The wiki page for him Tiglath-Pileser I, has some stuff which "may" be right, we just don't know for sure. Ploversegg (talk) 18:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)ploversegg


 * If you have a chance, could you take a look at the "Assyria" section of the ANE portal topics page, and check the dates, and add any more notable rulers, if there are any? Blueberrybuttermilkpancakes (talk) 03:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I left some comments on the portal discussion page todo list btw. Ploversegg (talk) 15:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)ploversegg

Chronology of the Ancient Near East
There was some discussion that the Chronology of the ancient Near East needed to be returned to its planned purpose as dealing with the short vs long etc controversies of ANE chronology and splitting of the dynasty ruler stuff to some sort of timeline article. Can we come to some sort of resolution/decision on the future of the article so I can continue to work on it?

I'm fine with whatever but the uncertainty makes it difficult to know how to proceed. As I understand it the choices are

Ancient Near East and revert the CANE to what is was before I started working on it and start from there and leave part in the old article.
 * Leave things the way they are
 * Rename Chronology of the Ancient Near East to, say, Timeline of the
 * Split off part of CANE into a new article, say Timeline of the ANE
 * Something Else

Am going to drop this note is several places, including my talk page Ploversegg (talk) 18:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)ploversegg

Great Minds
think alike! ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicpastime (talk • contribs) 00:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If you know how to make it invisible, feel free. Historicpastime (talk) 00:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Added link on Portal page and made the bot hook hidden on the project page (changing link to
 * go straight to ANE cleanup list vs ancient hist list. Feel free to tweak either.Ploversegg (talk) 23:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)ploversegg

Eshnunna
I tried to figure out the referencing in the article by looking up some of the other pages. For Eshnunna: please see Second millennium BC which starts at 1000 and ends at 1999 BC. I thought for sure the article was referencing 2100 to 2200 BC which are at the beginning of the Third millennium BC. Thus the article was off by a 1000 years since they were referring to the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC which is 1100 to 1200. (From the SonoranDesert-hots)... of ArizonaUSA)... and "Cheers"!... --Mmcannis (talk) 04:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Close, but completely backwards. :-)


 * Millenium BC begin in their year 1000 (or 999) and end at their year 1 (or zero). For example,
 * look at the end of the bronze age section of Second millennium BC that you mentioned, that
 * says that barbarians came at the END of the 2nd millenennium. Similarly, the first babylonian
 * empire i.e. hamurabi, was in the EARLY 2nd millenium. So yes, you are right that the extent
 * of the 3rd millenium BC is 2000 BC to 3000 BC, for example, but it BEGINS in 3000 BC (or perhaps
 * 2999BC). No big, just a common mistake for people not used to counting
 * years downward as in the time of BC land.Ploversegg (talk) 04:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)ploversegg

Mari rulers
Ploversegg, do you have a list of Mari rulers? Historicpastime (talk) 01:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Hm, AFAIK, there is only really historical information about Mari in two periods (plus some vague guess that a couple of the early Kassite kings ruled there while they controlled Mari before the move to Babylon).

The first period was circa 2300 when they were an independent power for a bit before they were taken over by Ebla then by Akkad. The problem with that part is the there is a question whether known rulers of Mari were Kings or governors under Ebla. See 198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/sbf/Books/LA44/44351LV.pdf but I decided there wasn't enough there to put in the timeline.

On the other hand, the period leading up to the capture(possibly the destruction) of Mari by Hamurabi. Clearly Zimri-LiM is well known. The line before him is not certain, but is sem-known. Basically, there were some rulers, then Samsi-Adad place a governor in Mari, then Zimri-Lim began.


 * Iagitlim
 * Iakhdunlim
 * Yasmah-Adad son of Shamshi-Adad I
 * Zimri-Lim

Note that these are spelled various ways, and there possible another guy before Yasmah-Adad called Sumu-Yamam. This is not a bad web page

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/MesopotamiaMari.htm

but I have NO IDEA where they got the ruler names other than for the two periods I mentioned.

Some good background on this is in # The King and I a Mari King in Changing Perceptions, Jack M. Sasson, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 118, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1998), pp. 453-470 which I meant to add (along with the above PDF) to the Mari page but forgot to. :-) Ploversegg (talk) 16:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)ploversegg


 * Thanks, I figured as much. I'll add them to Mari anyway in two charts, even if it's not much, because I keep coming across them wrt other kings and wanting to look up the context. Historicpastime (talk) 01:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

categories
Mostly I've been using the "people" category for long-dead people, unless their floruit spans a century boundary in a way that makes a death category less awkward. I.e. if they were known to be active 1722-1745, "18th century people" seems like the right category, but if they were known to be active 1798-1803, then "19th century deaths" is the most obvious single category. In a few cases it also depends on what the article says; i.e. if it says that someone ruled until 1798 at which point they were assassinated, then "1798 deaths" is known; otherwise it's unclear how long they lived after being deposed if at all. As for why I'm adding them in the first place, mostly for subset-retrieval purposes; e.g. for external tools to be able to say, "give me all biographies of people who lived between the 18th and 14th centuries BC". --Delirium (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Coordinate templates
You recently created Tarbisu, using coor title dm. That template is deprecated, and should not be used. Please use coord, instead. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 00:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I updated my prototype so future articles will use the new template.Ploversegg (talk) 00:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)ploversegg

make Uruk A-class
I would like to take the Uruk article to A-class status. Any suggestions? I don't understand why it is still rated B-class. I should say that I have no access to any books, so there is not much I can do to add content at this point.--Gurdjieff (talk) 11:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, it has improved enough to be a A-class article. I can touch up the Archaeology section, add a few more inline references. And maybe touch up the rulers section too. Unfortuneately, a lot of the books and papers on Uruk are in German which I can't really read. Anyway, feel free to update to A the article categories.Ploversegg (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)ploversegg

invalid geocoordinates
The coordinates you added to Chagar Bazar are invalid because the number of minutes in the latitude (85) is greater than sixty. Perhaps you meant 36.85 degrees north instead of 36 degrees 85 minutes north. Please check your sources and fix the coordinates in the article. --Stepheng3 (talk) 02:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the fix. --Stepheng3 (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Babylon
Anno Domini is the article that Before Christ redirects to. You're probably right because history isn't my thing, I was just cleaning up the BC disambiguation page but assumed third millennium BC meant third millennium Before Christ? Jevansen (talk) 23:31, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool. I was mostly just amused by the watchlist note that came with the change. :-) Ploversegg (talk) 05:40, 19 March 2010 (UTC)ploversegg

Names of sites
I already started this discussion once on the ANE project page, but I never got a reply, so I ask you since you seem to be doing a lot of ANE editing. Do you know if there has ever been a discussion on naming conventions of sites? There seems to be no convention on whether they are named by their current or historical name (Nagar, Syria vs Tell Leilan, for example). I understand why sites like Babylon and Mari are named as they are, but otherwise I would go for the current name, especially since many tells were occupied during periods for which we do not know the name (Tell Brak would be a good example) or for which more than one ancient name is known (Tell Leilan). Zoeperkoe (talk) 20:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There is no good answer to this question. I'll give you a semi-answer. 1) When I create a new article for a location with a known ancient name which was occupied for a single period like Mashkan-shapir or Nabada or some of the towns built by Kassite and Neo-Assyrian kings and then promptly abandoned then I use that name. 2) If there is no known name and a well recognized "archaeological" name and no associated modern town larger than a flyspeck that is not a magnet for loons I'll use that. Some modern towns are subject to constant wiki-attacks by nationalists and those with political interests and if you name the site article with such a name it will be trashed. 3) If it is part of or has been subsumed in modern times by a modern city I would make it a section of the cities page, like if I did an article on tell mohamed which is now within the city limits of Baghdad. 4) It does have a known ancient name but there are Significant remains of a different period which haven't been dug yet and might reveal a major city name, Akkad for example, I hold fire and use the "archaeological" name, Tell Whatever. 5)If it has a "classic" name like Larsa or Nippur then I would say that should apply out of tradition. Well, can you tell I've just been playing it by ear? If you have a more coherent plan I would be happy to work with it.Ploversegg (talk) 23:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thought so. I would go with option 4, period, but then again, there are probably already few people who recognize Mari, let alone Tell Hariri, and sites like Babylon and Nineveh consist of multiple tells/sites so that isn't going to work either. So, no, I have no workable coherent plan, but I would for example change Nagar to Tell Brak (which is probably the more well-known name anyway), and I get from your informal guidelines that you would do that as well. I think I can live with yours, they sound pretty reasonable, I might use them whenever I am in doubt on a name. Thanks, anyway! Zoeperkoe (talk) 04:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Ebla
My mistake. Already corrected. -- Zoeperkoe (talk) 22:23, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Khojaly–Gadabay culture?
I have noticed you have made edits to several articles related to the early cultures of Anatolia / Caucasus. Your imput here, in this article for deletion request, might be useful:. Have you heard of such an archeological term being used anywhere? Scribblescribblescribble (talk) 20:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Nagar to Tell Brak
Hi Ploversegg, I wanted to move Nagar to Tell Brak (since that is, I am quite sure, the name by which the site is best known both in and outside the scientific community) but couldn't since that page already exists and I now have to make a formal rename request. But that does give me the opportunity to ask whether you, as one of the main contributors, would oppose such a renaming? --Zoeperkoe (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Works for me. Is there some kind of Bot now to chase down and change all the links? Anyway, sounds like a reasonable thing to do.Ploversegg (talk) 18:04, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok. If there is a bot, let me know; otherwise I'll just fix them one by one; there aren't that many anyway.--Zoeperkoe (talk) 18:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Assyrian history
I see your point. Unfortunately, (modern) Assyrians feel a (too) strong need to assert themselves on WP and at the moment it is not a can of worms I'm willing to dive into. But I agree that the pages on ancient Assyria are deteriorating fast. Maybe we should ask an admin to have a look at this and give an official warning (although they do not really seem to work; given the amount of warnings on this issue on Sinharib's talk page)?--Zoeperkoe (talk) 14:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Name of Armenia
Of course the IP is just ignoring the source, but doesn't the article Name of Armenia need fixing? Dougweller (talk) 07:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I looked at it. Given what I see on Talk:Name_of_Armenia I'm not sure I want to get in the middle of an Armenian revert war. :-) And the article does place the Naram-Sin stuff under Speculations. But, yeah, maybe I can tweak it a bit and ref the issue without getting flamed on. It's certainly easier than trying to fight the current run of Assyrian cultural penis envy edits going on in the ANE. Ploversegg (talk) 16:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree it's exhausting! Dougweller (talk) 11:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Al-Sinnabra
An article that you have been involved in editing, Al-Sinnabra, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Sreifa (talk) 05:12, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Alishar Hüyük and Alişar
Hi Ploversegg, The article Alishar Hüyük, seems like a duplicate of Alişar (created in 2006). Happy editting. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 23:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Bold proposal to reorganize Template:Ancient Mesopotamia
I have made a proposal to reorganize Template:Ancient Mesopotamia. See here for the discussion; see here for the actual new draft. Your input is appreciated!--Zoeperkoe (talk) 18:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Susa
Hello, Ploversegg. I think I probably jumped the gun a bit by reverting at Susa. I think I misconstrued "thinly published" as implying that not much was published at all about the expedition. I'd suggest removing the phrase "thinly published", as I don't think it clearly expresses what the older phrase was saying at all, but since I already jumped the gun a bit earlier I thought I'd check with you first. Alephb (talk) 02:09, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

In retrospect, I could have been a bit more verbose in my original edit comment in this case. I will adjust the edit. The grant proposal said "Because of all these lacks, and despite of their crucial importance, the use of Roland de Mecquenem’s publications may often be discouraging." :-) PS I've never quite gotten used to the newfangled "web sites as inline refs" thing. Ploversegg (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Urfa
Hi. You removed Urfa from the list of Ancient Cities of the Near East and it would seem to me to be perfectly appropriate as a major Sumerian, Assyrian city to keep it. While the Shanidar Cave was a hole in a cliff with ten neanderthals in it, which hardly counts as a city... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 03:12, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi! I read the urfa page. It mentioned Harran and Göbekli Tepe but they have their own links already and are some distance away. So I couldn't find anything pre-Classical there. Or any archaeaological digs finding stuff pre-Classical. Sorry if I missed it if it did. If you think it belongs I would be delighted to put it back. And yeah, I agree the whole "city" idea went by the boards a long time ago on this list. :-) Ploversegg (talk) 03:36, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, before I could put it back someone with less wiki-manners than you pre-emptorily reverted the edit. So at any rate, it's done. Ploversegg (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

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September 2021
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Tell Haddad moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Tell Haddad, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    00:24, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This is nonsensical. The article had four citations and three more references in further reading. I've moved it back to Tell Haddad. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 10:01, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Adding literature...
I was wondering; did you ever consider adding literature in one of the citation formats instead of adding them oldschool as plain text? I find it so easy in the visual editor; just pop in the ISBN/DOI/JSTOR ID/whatever and you're done... Not meant as an attack or anything (and certainly not meant to discourage you ;) ), but since you always nicely add the latest refs to all these articles for so many years now I just wanted to point out that there's a really easy way to do it, in case you missed it... ;) Zoeperkoe (talk) 15:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Its largely a religious thing (in the broad sense of religion like whether you like thin or thick crust pizza). Too, I have a sense that the visual editor is still not fully production class. Like in Bakr Awa cite coughs up "undefined" in an article ref, which is not a good look. And cites are SO much harder to edit if they break. And it enforces the ALA citation format which is not my favorite. Too, a lot of of the archaeological refs I've added came from Before they had ISBNs etc. Basically though, I dislike software that thinks it is smarter than I am. It rarely is. :-) I will give the VE thing another try though.Ploversegg (talk) 16:01, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Crusts... Yeah, those are not open for discussion. But I see your point; I felt the same a couple of years ago but they've certainly improved things. By the way, I was just editing Tell Haddad and saw you put in the Sumer refs in Further reading; which I assume means you don't have access to them (or maybe you do, in which case you can ignore this). I just found out that they are now online until nr 40 here (I've been waiting for this for years). That's going to be a nice source for many articles... Cheers! Zoeperkoe (talk) 16:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. My journal access has varied over time. Thanks for the Sumer link. Now I need to find a list of all Sumer articles to go with it.Ploversegg (talk) 19:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Apparently Arabic WP has this (link to Wikidata, where I found it), but I've no idea whether that's only the Arabic part of Sumer or all of it. Zoeperkoe (talk) 11:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I randomly picked an early one to look at. So quaint reading stuff written in the Old Days of archaeology. Like statues being of the time of "Nazi-Maruttash II" from when they thought there were 2. And the now vintage spelling of some of the translations. Was life on the leading edge.Ploversegg (talk) 20:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I read an issue (vol 3 iss 2 english) and it had two short but nice articles on eridu that I didn't know about. Good work turning this up. Thought about adding the refs to eridu while I was there but didn't see a proper way to link the images (except as a bunch of individual pages). Maybe Visual Editor can do that more smartly.Ploversegg (talk) 15:05, 16 December 2021 (UTC)