User talk:Plutonix

=Cool Tricks an Ozzie taught me=
 * Making a new user sub page
 * Tables Syntax
 * text to exempt
 * to reset indentation level in talk. 'OD' stands for.....?   (Dunno, but as it is the opposite of an "indent", my guess was "outdent".)  BTW: Here's some more "stuff": tools; WP:EIW; userboxes
 * Experiments

= Nancy Wilson (rock musician) =

Early Wilson family info
I eventually found what I was looking for, except it isn't what I thought it was - it's a bio about Ann. Still, it's not entirely useless:

http://www.webcitation.org/69mnmFB6s - also http://www.biography.com/people/ann-wilson-17189468?page=1
 * ... Her mother, Lou, was a concert pianist and choir singer, and her father, John, a former Marine, was also a musician and singer who once led the U.S. Marine Corps band. ... Due to their father's military career, the Wilson family moved frequently. They lived near American military facilities in Panama and Taiwan before settling in Seattle, Washington, in the early 1960s. In order to maintain a sense of home no matter where in the world they were residing, the Wilsons turned to music. "On Sunday we'd have pancakes and opera," Nancy Wilson recalled. "My dad would be conducting in the living room. We'd turn it way up and rock. There was everything from classical music to Ray Charles, Judy Garland, Peggy Lee, bossa nova, and early experimental electronic music." ... Throughout high school Wilson performed alongside Nancy, a talented guitarist, in short-lived local bands such as Rapunzel and Viewpoint. ...
 * © 2013 A+E Networks. All rights reserved.

That bio pointed me to a bio about Nancy, which in many places is almost identical, (but the grammar is better!) Additional bits cover stuff more-specific-to-Nancy - the stuff about the family is much the same. Additional bits:

http://www.biography.com/people/nancy-wilson-20631965
 * ... bossa nova, and early experimental electronic music. I learned a tremendous amount early on." Wilson later remembered that she first set her heart on becoming a rock star at the age of nine, when she watched the Beatles' legendary debut performance on The Ed Sullivan Show. ... Studying Mel Bay's classic book Guitar Chords and learning to play Beatles' songs by ear, by the time she reached adolescence Wilson was already a highly accomplished player of the instrument, taking especially to acoustic guitar. ... While Nancy was in junior high and Ann was in high school, the Wilson girls performed in local bands such as Rapunzel and Viewpoint. After her sister graduated from high school, Nancy Wilson performed often on Seattle's coffeehouse circuit as a solo artist. After graduating from high school herself in 1972, she declined an invitation to join her sister's band Heart in Vancouver, instead enrolling at tiny Pacific University in Forest Grove, Oregon to study art and German literature. However, under constant prodding from her older sister to come to Vancouver and join Heart — who had already established themselves as one of Vancouver's premier bands — Wilson finally relented in 1974, leaving school to join her sister and her bandmates in Canada.
 * © 2013 A+E Networks. All rights reserved.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:40, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Shelly Siegel
At one point in the article it pops up as Shelly Siegal - probably due to me making a typing error!.
 * A) Spelling

Until I started writing this, I had only seen one gender specific reference, and that stated "she". (I guess I'd better dig it out) However, google comes up with masculine references (plural), and photos (plural). See E) & F) for more info.
 * B) Gender

I wonder why there are no credits for him on Dreamboat Annie?
 * C) Dreamboat Annie

You probably already knew, but I didn't. There were two mushrooms in Vancouver:
 * D) Mushroom
 * http://www.cashboxcanada.ca/shelley-siegel-%E2%80%93-canadian-success-story-not-be-forgotten -
 * Mushroom Records was a recording label company founded in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada, by brothers Wink and Dick Vogel in 1974.
 * Mushroom Studios, a Vancouver recording studio, is a separate operation from the record label. The studio was built by Aragon Records in 1966, 8 years before the formation of the Mushroom label. The studio was also known as Can Base Studios (derived from its principal investor) during the early 1970s when the Mushroom record label began.
 * The studio and label formed a partnership during the label's existence, and many of its albums were recorded there. In the mid 1970s the studio employed producer Mike Flicker and musician Howard Leese, who began to work with Heart.
 * Heart got their start in 1963 in Seattle, Washington formed by bassist Steve Fossen and brothers Roger Fisher (guitar/mandolin) and Mike Fisher (producer and sound engineer). The group went by the name The Army and White Heart, before settling on just Heart in the early 1970s.
 * Ann Wilson joined the group in 1970. Romance sprang up between her and Mike and she came along when they moved to Vancouver to avoid the Vietnam draft.
 * Soon after the move, Ann’s sister Nancy Wilson joined the group. Mirroring her sister, Nancy became romantically involved with Roger.
 * The band gained a following in Canada and was signed to the small Canadian label Mushroom, which issued their debut album, ‘Dreamboat Annie’, in 1976. ‘Dreamboat Annie’ was recorded with new members’ guitarist/keyboardist Howard Leese and drummer Michael Derosier.
 * With the success of Heart, Shelley Siegel went after his ultimate dream. He moved to Los Angeles, California and opened an American office on Sunset Boulevard, right across from the famous Tower Records.

Every reference seems to have a different role for him! (Some have several!) (None of these from wikipedia makes any reference to gender)
 * E) Role - wikipedia search
 * Mushroom Records (Canada) - "Shelly Siegel was the label's Vice-president and creative director." ... "Siegel suddely died due to an aneurysm on 17 January 1979".
 * Howard Leese - "Leese had his first recording contract with Ed Cobb's Sunburst label[1] at the age of 15, as the band The Zoo with friend and drummer Mike Flicker. Later, when Flicker went to work for Jack Herschorn at Mushroom Studios in Vancouver, Leese went with him as a production manager. While there, he and Shelly Siegel started Mushroom Records."
 * Magazine (Heart album) - "The change in labels resulted in a prolonged legal battle with Mushroom's creative director Shelly Siegel."
 * Iain Matthews - "Label-owner Shelly Siegel died suddenly in 1979, leaving the label rudderless."
 * Breakdown in Paradise - "but the death of Mushroom Records head Shelly Siegel in January 1979"
 * Heart (band) - "Mushroom Records, which was managed by Shelly Siegel.[13] ... "prolonged legal battle with Siegel.[2]"
 * [2] Ankeny, Jason, "Heart: biography", Allmusic, archived from the original on 28 July 2012 - http://www.webcitation.org/69UyaJ3Pw- Reference says NOTHING about anything, much!!
 * [13] Can-Base, labels thriving, says Seigel, promo rep", Billboard 86 (20): 54, 8 May 1974, ISSN 0006-2510


 * F) Role - google search - see also D).
 * http://everybodyishotisdead.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/shelly-siegel.html - "I want to introduce you to Shelly Siegel. Shelly started Mushroom Records (with Mike Flicker and Howard Leese) in Vancouver around the time I was shooting there. I don't remember exactly how I met Shelly but I shot the pictures at the press event for him." The rest is also interesting.
 * http://www.cashboxcanada.ca/shelley-siegel-%E2%80%93-canadian-success-story-not-be-forgotten - "It was on one of these Wednesdays in my Montreal MD days that I met Shelley Siegel. At around 5’ 6", with bushy long hair, he came flying into my office, waving a single of Heart, and their latest release ‘Magic Man’. He had a high voice and a slight frame, so in my haste to get to him, I assumed he was a girl, and accidentally said, ‘Nice to meet you, Sheila’. Shelley never let me forget that moment. He was a true ‘record guy’, wouldn’t take no for an answer, complained that he was having issues ‘breaking’ the single on AM Radio, as ‘Magic Man’ was an astonishingly long song (5:35 minutes) for that era, and AM refused to play anything that was over 3:00 minutes. Siegel was refusing to shorten the song, as the issue was the amazing guitar riff that actually ‘made’ the song. (Rumour had it that Siegel ended up ‘convincing’ the guys that filled the jukeboxes to put ‘Magic Man’ in the slot for ‘Brown Sugar’ by The Rolling Stones."
 * In 1977, Heart moved to CBS affiliate Portrait. This didn’t go well with Mushroom owner Shelly Siegel,
 * http://mushroom-studios.com/fr_history.cfm - Mushroom Studios History (Note: Studio)
 * Includes a subsection on Mushroom Records
 * etc.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments to above
A) Shelley is definitely a man...a 'she' crept into the article along the way.

B) Heart got their start in 1963 in Seattle, ... group went by the name The Army 

I am not sure how true this is (not saying it isnt true, literally I am not sure). K&D makes it sound like Roger and Steve had been in Army (not The Army and it may not necessarily have been their band) which broke up. They later were Heart/White Heart which was theirs.

That broke up as well, and they were starting a new band in 1970 when they placed the ad which Ann saw.

It depends on how you trace band genealogy or maybe how long the interim. OTOH, it seems safe to say Hocus Pocus reformed as Heart (and only Heart) in Canada because there are 4 common members (and Fossen and Fisher seem to have followed in order to reform the band). Finally, in 1963 Roger was 13 - does that make the Army a "real" band? Is it any more real than Ann & Nancy's Viewpoints?

Romance sprang up between her and Mike and she came along when they moved to Vancouver to avoid the Vietnam draft.

C) Book tells it in reverse (she moved first and they followed abut a year later), but the essence is the same.

D) For a Roger Fisher entry, he does/did have a book out. The story of the girls getting 51% comes from that.  I dunno if it is still in print.

E) According to K&D, Mushroom only had like 3 employees, so Siegel may have worn several hats in addition to PR (not unlike Michael Fisher as "manager").Plutonix (talk) 17:10, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Sat Edits
Prolly not a helpful title depending on your time zone, but it is unique.
 * Speaking of which, if you put five "~" at the end of your posts, that will give a time stamp:
 * ~    results in: ~
 * results in:
 * results in: Pdfpdf (talk)
 * ~ results in: Pdfpdf (talk) 01:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * results in: 01:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * results in: 01:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)~

A) I LIKE the new title/label arrangement VERY MUCH! Wiki's auto-format/TOC is terrible because the section fonts are so overwhelmingly large (professionally speaking as an HCI consultant).  They draw your eye to them to the exclusion of all else.  Lots of breaks then makes an article look like a disjointed collection of facts or post it notes.  That works for some things but not anything that is basically a narrative/running prose.


 * Glad you like it. I did it for exactly the reasons you list. (Great minds think alike?)

The new ';XXXX' labels provide a nice compromise - someone can scan for the section dealing with whatever they are looking for without overwhelming the eye. (whatever these are [labels?] solves an issue I have with 2 other entries I tried to solve differently but format Nazis keep unsolving).


 * Agree that Format Nazis who insist on changing heading levels are a pain.

I also added a few labels to the longer passages. I also think the labels mean that the bold text "first number one..." is no longer needed - they look like section labels accidentally in the body. I know you are trying to make those factlets easy to find, so maybe an aptly named subsection Major Success...(maybe "Smash Hits"?) serves that purpose.


 * Maybe. However, I still prefer the bolding - after all, there are only two such strings. (Or have I missed some?)

That said, I think some of the new labels involve topics epic enough that they should be subsections (e.g. Contract dispute, breakup(s), the major success in the mid 80s ). So, I promoted a few to see what it looks like. I think MOTHERHOOD should be a subsection (partly so all LONG sections do have at least one subsection) but that is VERY problematic: the motherhood narrative comes and goes and spans some sections and label breaks and would require a major rewrite to reorder it into a dedicated section.


 * Your call - I have no particular preference. Although I'd personally prefer that I don't do any more major rewrites, don't let that stop you doing one if you feel it provides "a positive return on the investment".  Pdfpdf (talk) 01:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Other parts of the story would then have to have synch phrases added ("while Nancy was still...."). I dont think it helps the narrative(s).

B)I added some Lovemongers stuff during the hiatus....then promoted it to a subsection

During her hiatus, Nancy was not dormant as a performer.

I never said that because she wasnt: she did do sporadic Lovemongers events and 3 albums. Rather than change your wording I added some Lovemongers color and story. At one of these Bill Clinton came onto Ann "You're goooood. Really really gooood", too bad it is not a Nancy story. Kevin Bacon did somewhat the same: he came up to them after the SINGLES wrap party and told them they were 'great...really great'. Neither Clinton nor Kevin seemed to know who they were as Lovemongers.


 * I don't think I said you said that. (Or did I???)
 * Rather than change your wording - Actually, it is/was someone else's words, so I'm not wed to them. (Although it might have been me who typed them in.)
 * Bill Clinton came onto Ann' - Well, that's a big surprise ... not. ;-)   Yes indeed, it is too bad it's not a Nancy story.
 * Neither Clinton nor Kevin seemed to know who they were as Lovemongers. - Given how primped and preened they were at around that time when they were doing Heart performances, (and given that I expect they looked "normal" as Lovemongers), I'm not sure I would have recognised them in "normal" attire ... Pdfpdf (talk) 01:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Mon Edits...

 * I moved the Liebovitz story into the body. I cant recall why I made it a footnote originally...Oh! Because it is a cool story, but it is an ANN story!  Change it back to footnote?
 * I looked at my last version before you got here and I had it incorrectly as Siegal all the way thru. My browser flags both as as spelling errors, so I cant blame that! Good catch. It looks Siegal-free now.
 * If you look at it in Read/Preview mode, Cox is first mentioned just 5-6 sentences before the Pearl Jam quote...I think the context and proximity makes it clear enough. (Sidebar: that was one of the things I disliked about many many many subsections: you could easily jump into the middle of a story and be utterly lost.  the labels serve both needs much better).
 * Real minor grammar which is ok spoken but not written (ex Mushroom is a what not a who).
 * Dad is not mentioned much. He drank too much from his time in Korea so many stories are not too flattering.  I just added them visiting Dad's classes. Note:
 * Do not get too creative with the phrase "with Dreamboat Annie climbing the charts towards platinum status". it is as close as I can locate the event in time. It actually belongs several paras up chronologically, but I didnt want interrupt the b=narrative of their first success and/or contract dispute with an anecdote.


 * Backing up to 'when did Ann move to Canada?': June 1971 is mentioned setting the stage for when they met. The book tells of one subsequent trip he makes to "see the band" after that.  Then she leaves the band on the next 'page' (epub)...further implies she left fairly soon after.  There could have been other trips not mentioned, but it 'feels' to have been very soon after meeting.

gotta fix my email now....Plutonix (talk) 19:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Tue Edits

 * Moved Lead Vocals list to article
 * Needs to be double checked as to album, but I think it is right


 * Fixed PURPLE RAIN ref
 * I missed this in the version comparisons earlier... Where/when I am vague (Purple Rain Film or Album?) it is because the book was. You added "film" but the source is not clear on that. As I noted in the article note, I suspect music execs are likely out to copy the album's success.  I suspect the book is referring to the entire phenom: The section deals with the impact of music videos ("Heart: Featuring Breasts"!) and the MVs for 'Rain' were just clips from the film. Changed wiki link to the album, left the text ambiguous.
 * Actually maybe "film" could stay - that para has no 'ref' tag. Album still seems mos likely to me.
 * I inserted "film" because the wikilink was to the film - which, BTW, I thought surprising, because my personal memories from that time are of the album and the video clips, not the film. i.e. I'm not wed to having "film" there - your choice. Pdfpdf (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ahhhh! I wondered why you picked it, in the original entry, the movie was not on my mind at all and I assumed the wiki smart link was to the album.  OTOH, not all THAT much difference between film, album or music videos. Plutonix (talk) 14:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Reordered the HEART paragraph so that the bold text acts as topic sentence
 * Added 5th hit single...that was accidental...see note
 * changes all refs from "Kicking and Dreaming ..." to "Wilson and Wilson (2012)"
 * Note that "Wilson and Wilson" is incorrect - the book has 3 authors. (Hence the use of the string "Kicking & Dreaming".) Pdfpdf (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, SOMEWHERE I saw them credited as AUTHOR and him as CO-author and so, thought that would fly in the refs...title ref like that would get eaten on the Egyptology entries. HarperCollins (now?) has him listed as an author...interesting mini bio:


 * Charles R. Cross is an interesting guy. (Have a look at his website.) Pdfpdf (talk) 10:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll change them back when I get time.
 * some book refs were (2010) - fixed
 * Oh. Sorry. I thought I had fixed all of them. (Ho hum.) Pdfpdf (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


 * various minor grammar and punctuation tweaks.
 * Broke off the VIDEO GAME mention into a full para re Covers

The only other thing I still want to add is the passing of Dotes (Dad). Unfortunately, he died around the time Nancy's kids arrived so locating it is problematic without chopping up that narrative. First, I need to find it.
 * DONE


 * Updated Little Queen entry...contract dispute was all messed up. Trivia I found out when fiddling with the wording: Magic Man actually charted better than Barracuda.

- Have a good whatever — Plutonix (talk) 17:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC) (found SETTING to set the TZ, but server time is apparently used)


 * I'm afraid that, at the moment, life and reality (and work) are having severe negative effects on the time I have available for wikipedia. Sorry about that. Pdfpdf (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * So much for Semi Retired, huh? ;) Plutonix (talk) 01:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Pdfpdf (talk) 03:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Loose ends
Rather than insert more new stuff within the above, I'll try your approach of starting a new section! (Note, however, that I have also made some "tweaks" above.) Pdfpdf (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013

"had been in Army (not The Army" - Yes, I've seen references referring separately to both names, and a third set of references arguing which is the "correct" of those two names ... Pdfpdf (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013
 * I am not certain the Army is actually a direct predecessor of Hocus Pocus, or that the Army was actually "Roger's band", though he may have been in it...detailed upthread.

At a minimum, I'd like to set up a table of the chronology as a "straw man" that we can expand and add the relevant references to - at least that way we can separate the "agreed facts" from the "disputed facts" ... Pdfpdf (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013
 * I did something like that as an outline when I started the NW entry. Partly...
 * ...to capture dates (or approx)
 * ...to determine the amount of Ann's story (and/or Heart's) that needed to be told while she away from Nancy
 * ...to determine how many color stories to add and where
 * I'd collect refs along with the chron...I did not do that and had to go find them again to footnote the entry.


 * There is another book on Heart/Wilson girls ("girls" !?!) from about 2008. It looks TERRIBLE. It is cited in the Heart entry and is partly available on Goggle Books.  It looks like someone collected all the PR packets they could find and all the interviews ever given and wrote a bio/history from them.  It has lots of "Ann once told an interviewer...." or "Nancy once said in an interview...".

Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

"Romance sprang up between her and Mike and she came along when they moved to Vancouver to avoid the Vietnam draft."

C) Book tells it in reverse (she moved first and they followed abut a year later),
 * I hate pronouns! They create ambiguities!!
 * Who are the first "they"? If it isn't Ann & Mike, who is it?
 * The "Romance..." line is yours from above [Shelley Siegel >> D) Mushroom >> sub bullet 4]
 * OK. I meant Ann & Mike.
 * And if the second "they" is not Steve & Roger, then who is it?
 * Sorry my " C)...they" == Fossen and Roger
 * And anyway, HE (Mike) had moved to Vancouver WELL before SHE (Ann) joined him there.
 * Yes. The "Romance..." passage sort of sounded like "they" == Roger and Steve and that they preceded her (Ann Wilson of Heart) to Canada.  They did not...until R&S followed, Michael and Ann lived in a sort of commune of hippies and draft dodgers in a cabin (Michael may have built it) for some time.  I dunno what he did for money, but they did not have much, living largely off rice and veggies.  Ann mainly played housewife, washing clothes, changing the sheets, cooking.  But she did also write songs/poetry, "Magic Man" was written at this time.
 * (It almost sounds idyllic, doesn't it? Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC))
 * It is very hard to tell how long this period was, Ann only says something like "eventually, the band came to me..." referring to Steve and Roger moving to Canada. The only time codes in the book is narrative about Nancy told between Ann going to Canada and Steve and Roger following: in that interposed narrative, Nancy graduated from school in fall of 1972 and then played a 1972 NY's Eve gig.
 * They (Steve and Roger) could have followed in late 1972 or early 1973, the latter seems more likely to me (based on subsequent narrative of events between the time R&S followed and the time Nancy joined). For a narrative, 'by early 1973...' seems reasonable, perhaps with some of the above as explanation in a ref tag.
 * (I read somewhere that Roger went in late 72, and Steve later (late 72/early 73) - I'll see if I can find it again. Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC))
 * Good point. I hadn't considered that Roger and Steve could have moved to Canada separately.  Steve may have followed in order to join the reformed band, even. Another interesting question might be how long Hocus Pocus may have continued in Seattle without Ann.


 * Still, "By early 1973...." seems safe phrasing pending more authoritative evidence.  Plutonix (talk) 15:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * As aside...one one of Ann's visits to Nancy, Nancy's boyfriend is walking down the hall towards Ann. Ann grabs him and throws him against the all and demands "when are you going to f*ck my sister?" (they were semi platonic duet partners).  Dominate much?  LOL

Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * My but she's subtle! (Is that what they call "The Direct Approach"?) Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Roger's book, blog, Q&A and "The Heart Breakers
"For a Roger Fisher entry, he does/did have a book out. The story of the girls getting 51% comes from that." - The 51% story also appears on his Q&A page, where he also says that he hasn't finished writing his book yet. So I do not agree that the story "comes from" the book. - I've no doubt the story is in his book, but it appeared on his Q&A page first.
 * OK. I dont think the Q&A entry is there anymore.  I recall reading it once long ago, then cribbed the footnote from the Heart entry for the 51% story.  The wording was "as I tell in my book...".  I took that to mean it was a book, not a manuscript and not being able to find it, assumed it was no longer in print (I tried the US Library of Congress too, but their search mechanism isnt helpful).  He is fairly frequently interviewed and I found several online trying to find a date for the founding of Heart and his side of the story for the Break up.  The examiner.com one cited in NW is pretty good.


 * Regarding Roger Fisher Q&A
 * It seems Roger has re organised his Q&A page to include archives!
 * Some time ago on the Heart (band) I wrote:
 * In an entry dated March 22, 2008 on Roger Fisher's "Questions & Replies" page , in response to the question: "I've often wondered how Ann & Nancy wound up with the name Heart when it was your band in the first place?", Roger replies: "The answer is detailed in my book. In a nutshell, when brother Mike was happily with Ann, and Nance and I were happily together, the Heart Partnership was formed. Mike and I, in our wisdom, insisted the girls be given 51% of the rights in the partnership." However, other than supporting that Mike was part of "the Heart Partnership", it does nothing to confirm Mike's role(s), and the dates he performed those roles.
 * (As you said) That link is now a - new root page is http://www.rogerfisher.com/question-answer/
 * So far, I haven't been able to find its new location - it doesn't appear on http://www.rogerfisher.com/2008/03/
 * Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You can use Google to search a site (which I did for the NW draft - I was going to archive the page) but it does not appear to be there anymore and I have wondered why he redacted it. Plutonix (talk) 15:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * From http://www.rogerfisher.com/2008/02/
 * On February 23, 2008
 * I just saw the new Q and A on Heart and was delighted to hear that you and Nancy Wilson are writing autobiographies. Any idea on when you may be realeasing yours?
 * I’m really not concerned with the when… it’s the what that matters most. I intend to make something that uplifts, enlightens, and entertains.
 * (I often hear politicians give answers like that.) Pdfpdf (talk) 03:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The Heart Breakers
 * BTW Fisher and Derosier had a band recently named The Heart Breakers (about the time of Red Velvet Car). Ann took exception to some things they said in radio interviews, like they were trying to coattail the success/tour of RVC; but the band was not around long.Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Didn't know that. (Yet another "interesting" piece of information.) Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I didnt know about them either until a few days ago. I was Googling something to check a fact or something and a short news article about it/them was in there with a lot of other stuff.  I tried to find more, but "Heart Breakers" gives a lot of Tom Petty stuff even with the space.Plutonix (talk) 14:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I just came across this: http://www.rogerfisher.com/2013/01/ Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Check this out as well Fisher, Fossen and Derosier have every reason to be proud of their RRHOF induction, but this smacks of opportunism. If Ann and Nancy did not like Heart Breakers, this wont warm their Hearts either (pun), I suspect.

Sometimes it seems like they are all still friendly (short of a reunion - Roger has shot that down in several interviews): Roger, Steve and Mike D all contributed to Behind The Music and the book...then something like this comes along which seems decidedly less friendly though.Plutonix (talk) 14:25, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

BTW: I didn't notice his book when it came out. I'll go search for it, but what do you know about it?
 * More on Roger's book
 * Only that it is very very hard to find. Google gives lots of Roger Fisher of "Getting to Yes".  Which is why I thought it was older and now out of print.  FWIW, the alleged book is not available in the STORe on his website and no up-front mentions of it.  Maybe he lost interest in it or could not get it published.Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Could be. The way he talked about it on his blog in 2008, it sounded like it was well advanced. (But to quote Mandy Rice-Davies: Well he would, wouldn't he.)
 * Now that the Wilson's book has been published, I would have thought there would be a string of publishers banging on his door. I guess not. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * His Q&A pages / blogs are littered with mentions of it. Yes, you would have thought there'd be at least a reference to it on his Store page. Perhaps I'll email: "Dear Roger, What books have you published, and where can I get copies of them?" Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Mushroom
"According to K&D, Mushroom only had like 3 employees" - OK! (Siegel, Flicker & Leese). That answers a LOT of questions, and resolves a number of things!
 * I think Leese was a session guy...hired as needed for sessions. I'll check if it mentions who the third is, but a full time arranger/asst producer seems very unlikely to me as opposed to a gal Friday to answer the phones, type letters, open mail, write checks, provide an image ("please hold for Mr Siegel...") and get Shelley coffee.
 * I checked...it refers to Leese as Flicker's assistant, and Leese was the only one in the studio when Heart came in to record some songs (covers). So maybe he was a real employee, but it also mentions a booking agent (prolly a free lance guy the band used for that ...I feel like a detective).
 * My impression is further supported by the fact that there was no issue with the band hiring Leese away (though that would not happen until they recorded Annie). If he was a session guy, he could still do that AND be in the band for a while.

Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC) I read somewhere that Flicker "worked" BOTH for Mushroom Studios AND for Mushroom Records. (Which explains how he was able to produce all of Heart's first 5 albums, even though Mushroom Records went bust in 1980.) And yes, as primarily a session musician, Leese was also almost certainly "multiply-employed". Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The fact that he quit Mushroom during the contract dispute explains how he could continue to produce them. The Leese element is emblematic of many elements of the story even using K&D: trying to be too specific in the wording results in assertions that cannot be supported.
 * a) Agree with both sentences. b) Hmmm. Bad proof reading. What I was trying to say was: (Which explains how he was able to continue to use Mushroom Studios when producing Heart's first 5 albums, even though Mushroom Records went bust in 1980.) Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * In a Heart entry for example, if you say "Howard Leese was working as Flickers assistant during the recording sessions and he impressed the band...." it is correct. But, "Howard Leese was an  producer and arranger working for Mushroom during the recording sessions and he impressed the band...." may be true, but cant be supported.Plutonix (talk) 14:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree Pdfpdf (talk) 03:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Miscellaneous
"Maybe. However, I still prefer the bolding - after all, there are only two such strings. (Or have I missed some?)"
 * Did I miss any? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013
 * No. I think it is fine now.

"What do you think of something like this as a fact-central thing to add for the albums?" - I think it's great, but I also think it will get classed as "reinventing the wheel", and that some genuinely nice person will come along in good faith and try to be helpful by replacing it with the already existing templates. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013
 * I kind of wanted to pull some of the album data out of the narrative like how well they charted or when they were released - a mini InfoBox. But since it would just be repeating Discography stuff, never mind.  I should have used the Discography for some of the chart info instead of looking it all up myself, I wasnt sure how accurate it might be though.Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

"Ann looks good!" - Really? OK, when I've got time, I'll have a look at the video. (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013

"Cox is first mentioned just 5-6 sentences before" - Yes. That was what my "short attention span" comment was referring to. (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013
 * Stuff like that looks much further away in Edit mode. Several times now, trying to clarify when something happened or reword for who/when/where tags has caused a (sub)section to loop back on itself and tell a story twice or at least repeat key details or dates.

Do not get too creative with the phrase "with Dreamboat Annie climbing the charts towards platinum status". - Again, not my words. I thought they were already there, but again, it's entirely likely that I was the one who typed them in. To tell the truth, I didn't like them (and still don't) but I had "bigger fish to fry" at the time. (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013
 * It is a phrase in a new passage I just added in the last 2 days, so you probably haven't actually read it in context yet. I was anticipating that you would want greater clarity as to when, but as a note in the text explains, it is almost impossible to place exactly when the story takes place any better than around that time.  Since the book is more of a story about 2 sisters and their band than an actual history, you often have to read 4-5 pages before and after something to get a feel for when it happened.
 * That seems logical. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thus my comment was preemptive that fiddling with it too much might result in a meaning or connotation which is not and cannot be supported by the ref cite.Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Moved Lead Vocals list to article - Thanks. (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013

Charles R. Cross is an interesting guy. (Have a look at his website.)

I'll now have a look at the page itself!! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * OnTheOtherHand: Maybe I'll have an early night. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

'''I moved the Liebovitz story into the body. I cant recall why I made it a footnote originally...Oh! Because it is a cool story, but it is an ANN story! Change it back to footnote?'''
 * From Mon Change list

Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Your choice - I have no particular preference either way. However, I agree with your conclusion about its prominence in a NW article, given that its a story about Ann. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The Army
I found a B&W promotional poster for THE ARMY, so maybe it was THE ARMY. The band members on poster are: Enty(?) Wilhelm, Ray Schaeffer, Steve Fossen, Roger Fischer. They quit using the name because it kept them from getting gigs on the Navy bases.
 * Do you have a URL for the poster? Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * see below Plutonix (talk) 14:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

The names are hard to read, Enty is as best I can make out fiddling with it in Photoshop. It looks nothing like "Don" as listed in the Heart banner/section thing at the bottom of NW entry.
 * You've done well to make anything out of that.
 * Note that many europeans simplified their names for english speakers, (e.g. Harry Vanda), or had them simplified for them! (e.g. Beeb Birtles) So that may explain why it does not look like "Don" (or "Donny"). Pdfpdf (talk) 01:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, I was just trying to see if the original could be determined.Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I found ANOTHER pic that seems to indicate Army MAY go back to 1963...a REALLY, REALLY young Roger, Steve, and Ray S. are shown.
 * Do you have a URL for it? (I'd like to see what 13-y-o Roger looked like!) Pdfpdf (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to post a link.
 * second photo shows a young (though maybe not 13) Roger, Ray and Steve (No. 1968 = 18-y-o)
 * But 1963 (if true) == 13 yrs old Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

If you follow the HEART link under the first picture, there are some vintage Heart pics (with misleading captions ie Heart never went by Army or White Heart once they reformed in Canada and certainly not once Nancy joined.) Plutonix (talk) 14:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * third lists the band as THE ARMY
 * Towards the bottom there is a WHITE HEART poster which documents the name as HEART not HART.
 * At the very bottom is an early publicity photo (pre Nancy), the quality s very bad.


 * You've mentioned "White Hart" a few times. I've not seen anything referring to the band by that name. I gather you have?
 * Roger Fisher's entry "and/or White Hart"...a phrase you recently edited out. I think it appears somewhere else in the form 'Army / Hocus Pocus / Heart / White Hart'. Maybe a talk page.
 * One instance might be a typo, two made it seem like something creeping into the category of received wisdom. Thus it was mentioned as a dispositive as a part of the fact collecting. — Plutonix (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Heart (band) says: "a new name, White Heart[5] (from Tales from the White Hart, a collection of short stories by Arthur C. Clarke)". That was supposedly said by Steve Fossen, but I haven't found anything to verify it.
 * Googling >"White Hart" band -"The White Hart" -hotel -pub -club -lane -DJ -drive -gallery -wood -court -house -facebook -yard -roast< gets the list down to around 700, but doesn't turn up anything obviously relevant. Pdfpdf (talk) 01:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

(I also found a good copy of the cute poster for McCabes)
 * Awwwwwww. Yep, that's definitely "cute"! Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Better image than the one in the book Plutonix (talk) 14:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

According to Ann, Hocus Pocus/Heart did use White Heart (not Hart) at one time as listed on Roger's entry. It was short lived though. Roger's MySpace lists bands as "Army, White Heart, Heart, Alias, Roger Fisher Band". Still seems to me like Army is just a previous band Roger was in, not a direct precursor to Heart. Plutonix (talk) 22:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Simply, I don't know. The few references I've seen either state or imply it was a precursor, but they don't supply any supporting tales, or related tales that would support the statement. They just state it. So who knows how reliable the statment(s) is/are? Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, I think it is simply received wisdom. K&D is clear that when Ann answered the ad Roger and Steve did not have a band at that time and were looking to start a new one.  She knew of them from the scene though including the Army, Heart and White Heart.Plutonix (talk) 14:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

01/26/2012 ...errr 2013 edits

 * changed refs to Kicking and Dreaming...I started with "Wilson, Wilson and Cross" but it looked funny
 * I left the Liebovitz story inline rather than demote to footnote because otherwise that titled subsection is one of those really, really short ones.
 * In the part about Fossen and Derosier being ousted, you added a passage about how long ('1963...1969, 15 years or maybe 19 years...') Fossen he had been with the band. This intrudes on the narrative, so I demoted it to the footnote.
 * It is not that it isnt a good point, but the whole genealogy mess would be better told much much earlier (if at all in NW's entry) or in the Heart entry. Relegating it to a footnote allows it to be told without trying to embed an entire story between emdashes.
 * Since it cant be handled simply, I actually prefer something like '..he had been with the band since it re-formed in Canada, but now....'.  The salient point is that now, he is out. Plutonix (talk) 16:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with all of that. Pdfpdf (talk) 01:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Rut Roh
I originally had After 2 platinum albums and a gold......re-fact checking both versions are wrong contextually. By that time (1982), all four of the first albums were PLATINUM (annie 1976; Queen 1977; Magazine 1978; D&B 1978) and only Bebe was gold (1980). However, only two were platinum for PORTRAIT/CBS records...' the other 2 platinums were for Mushroom. But I dunno where you got 2 golds from (only other gold-only album they have is 'Desire' excluding anthologies).

So it ought to say "After 2 platinum albums and a gold for CBS..." or allowing that CBS might give some credit for the Mushroom performance, I went with:

"After their series of platinum and gold albums, this was seen as a flop,...". Better to leave it generic and avoid having to explain context, IMO. The first one diesnt really work since the following phrases deal with general critics not comments from CBS. Plutonix (talk) 16:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "After their series of platinum and gold albums," seems simplest/cleanest, and it seems to avoid any problems. And, I prefer it. Pdfpdf (talk) 01:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Brigade / All I Wanna Do
The first video is indeed the original MV from the time of the album; the performance vid looks like it is from the Brigade tour. I think some earlier imprecise wording (or overly precise reading) made it sound like they recorded it but never played it since. They did play it on the Brigade tour (which I saw), but retired it after that.

There were some general ill feelings about the song: Mutt (mr shania) wrote it as a country song and reserved the right to approve their version. He vetoed the first attempt because (according to K&D), they changed one note. Then when it was released it was controversial and even banned in Ireland.

The 3rd video is a Sims thing, LOL.
 * Yes - LOL was what I was aiming for. (Either that or "WTF???") Pdfpdf (talk) 12:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

My point about YouTube, was trying to winnow out whether it was a valid source or not. Because of the nature of it, I can see why WP frowns on it - I could post whatever I want there to support a point in a wiki entry. OTOH, with something which is obviously a vintage performance clip, YT is just a repository. Many of the vintage Heart clips have been posted by EMI and the like which a) means they arent copyright violations and b) are much higher quality than clips digitized from 70's or 80's era VHS tapes. (As an aside, you can use http://www.ixconverter.net/ to download and covert YT vids to MP4 or MP3 if you want digital copies of any of their stuff on YouTube).

I dont understand why several sites are on the blacklist - examiner.com for example.

Plutonix (talk) 16:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I expect it's something to do with the desire for a "one size fits all" rule. Of course, what you get is "one size that doesn't fit anybody". Pdfpdf (talk) 12:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

So, it looks like you're close having it finished. Yes?/No? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * what is "it"? Plutonix (talk) 13:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The NW article. Pdfpdf (talk) 02:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Communication
BTW: What's happening re the request for permission to use pictures? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I have the wording posted earlier captured offline and cleaned up. The purpose of the pilot email I sent you was to open that channel of communication; at which point, I was going to send you a copy for review.  I was planning to send it to them (H website addy) after Feb 2 when they (the band) has a 1 month vacation from the Fanatic tour (which I was hoping would actually get filled up with dates in the central US, alas...). — Plutonix (talk) 13:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah. Yes. You said something to that effect earlier - thanks for the reminder. Pdfpdf (talk) 02:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Any news? Pdfpdf (talk) 23:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Where are we up to with respect to the plan? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:06, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

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