User talk:Pogenplain

Welcome!
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Happy editing! Fahads1982 (talk) 17:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi!
Please use Help:Edit summary to help other editors understand what you are doing. This can, among other things, lower the risk that someone reverts you with an "unexplained changes, take it to the talkpage." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:11, 14 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I will do this from now on. Pogenplain (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Attributing page splits
Just a heads up, when you split articles off of other ones (like you did here), you have to provide attribution for where the text it originally came from. This page has instructions on how to split. I went ahead and put attribution on the talk page of both articles. Happy editing! BuySomeApples (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you I will keep this in mind. Pogenplain (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Reviewing
Hello @StarTrekker, thank you for agreeing to review articles for me. Can you review:


 * Paleo-Arabic
 * Ja 1028
 * DJE 23
 * Malkikarib Yuhamin

Pogenplain (talk) 17:31, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello @StarTrekker, I have some more articles I hope you can review:


 * Synodicon Orientale
 * Tharan Yuhanim
 * Dhamar Ali Yuhabirr
 * Monotheism in pre-Islamic Arabia

Pogenplain (talk) 05:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello @StarTrekker, can you review:


 * Isnad-cum-matn analysis
 * Hikayat (this used to be a redirect)

Pogenplain (talk) 01:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello @StarTrekker, can you review:


 * Hadith Dhulqarnayn
 * Alexander the Great in the Shahnameh
 * Ayina-i Iskandari of Ahli Shirazi
 * Kherad-name
 * Iskendername
 * Sadd-i Iskandari

Pogenplain (talk) 06:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello @StarTrekker, is there a problem preventing the Hadith Dhulqarnayn page from being reviewed? Pogenplain (talk) 00:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems to me to already be reviewed.★Trekker (talk) 00:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello @StarTrekker, can you review the new pages I have created and placed in this section of my user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pogenplain#Ancient_cosmology_(&_Hexaemeral_literature) Thank you. Pogenplain (talk) 23:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello @StarTrekker, can you review: Pogenplain (talk) 03:06, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Babyloniaca (Berossus)
 * Ahmad Al-Jallad
 * Zoroastrian cosmography

Hello @StarTrekker, can you review: Pogenplain (talk) 06:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Debate between the hoe and the plough
 * Debate between tree and reed
 * Debate between silver and copper
 * Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Netherworld (previous redirect)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Pogenplain. Thank you for your work on Iskandarnameh. Ingratis, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Renaming ("moving") the pages
Dear colleague, please do not rename pages by cutting and pasting content, as it creates multiple problems. The proper ways to rename the pages are described in WP:Move. Викидим (talk) 05:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Pogenplain. Thank you for your work on Nativitas et victoria Alexandri Magni regis. Klbrain, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Klbrain (talk) 19:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello I disagree with the merge. I plan on expanding this page in the future with additional sources and I do not think Alexander Romance is a good place for having detailed summaries of individual later recensions of the Romance. Would you be alright with me moving the text back to the page I created? Pogenplain (talk) 02:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I have added some more material and sources into the Nativitas section. It is now the longest entry in the Alexander Romance page by a good margin, especially that I have now turned Historia de preliis into its own page and moved the material from its entry on Alexander Romance into the new page. I think this further justifies moving the material. Pogenplain (talk) 06:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure; happy to WP:BRD given that the merge was bold! Done. Klbrain (talk) 11:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you ! Pogenplain (talk) 15:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Marduk and being a "storm god" + some other things that could use some improvement in "Ancient Near Eastern Cosmology"
Hi, to avoid getting into an edit war I'll talk more about this topic here if you dont mind.

The source did claim that Marduk was originally a storm god. However, I just want to point out that Marduk's original role is disputed, as there is very little early evidence for Marduk (and also his city Babylon.) In fact, outside of Adad being occasionally identified with Marduk in the 1st Millenium BC I would say there isn't much evidence for Marduk to have been a storm god in later development either. Using Storms and Winds as weapons does not make a god a storm god, see Ninurta and Tishpak. Heres an excerpt from Schwemer's "The Storm-Gods of the Ancient Near East: Summary, Synthesis, Recent Studies Part I"

"...and, more importantly, none of the points of contact that we have mentioned provide any proof for the hypothesis that Marduk himself originally was regarded as a local storm-god before acquiring a much broader proﬁle due to his preeminent role in later Babylonian theology." (Schwemer p.128)

Also, the etymology of Marduk is generally understood to be taken from amar-utu, which means "bull calf of Utu." Jacobsen contributed a lot to Assyriology and worked with what he had back then, but some of his ideas on Mesopotamian mythology are getting a little outdated to say the least.

Another thing to note: I don't think calling the whole genre of storm god v.s. the sea "Western Semitic" is a good idea, notwithstanding that its how it was described in the source. The Hurrians and Hittites also had stories of that sort, and Hurrian and Hittite are not Semitic languages.

Oh and, Anzu is not a creation myth. Enlil also barely appears in Enuma Elish, only appearing near the end, or a "downright spiteful treatment of the old head of the pantheon" (Lambert "Studies in Marduk", p.5) so highly doubt Tiamat stole the tablet of destinies from Enlil. Both Anzu and Tiamat were not dragons. The protagonist "young warrior god" in the Labbu myth was not Enlil, but Tishpak (and Tishpak did not fail to fight Labbu, he even got rewarded kingship for it). The source is right that the Enuma Elish draws on a lot of older Mesopotamian literature, but I feel like more sources would be beneficial to the wiki article. This wiki article is quite an ambitious project after all. Baldpotat0 (talk) 01:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello @User:Baldpotat0. You seem better informed on this than me so you may go ahead and make these edits. I also checked the Marduk page, which you have worked on, and saw its discussion on this subject. I subdivided the Characteristics section so that users reading it can more quickly find the part about the literature on Marduk's original role if they want to. Pogenplain (talk) 01:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello @User:Baldpotat0 are you still thinking of making some of these changes? I implemented a few but I would appreciate your help. You are right this is an ambitious page. Pogenplain (talk) 17:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Pogenplain Yeah sorry, I'm quite busy with other stuff outside of Wikipedia (mostly school related things), I'm also not very familiar with cosmology or creation myths (even on Mesopotamia) and looking through the article it touches on topics I am not familiar with so I won't be of much help about those. However, there are a few things that I want to point out about Mesopotamia in particular that I feel like might need some work on.
 * 1. The Enki-Ninki pair is not the only theogony from Mesopotamia. For example, the Theogony of Anu lists the first gods as Duri-Dari. Some texts like the Exaltation of Ishtar claims Earth to be the mother of all beings, while other texts talk about the river or some other kind of water as the beginning. An Old Babylonian list mentions Amatud-anki (Mother who bore sky and earth), although it could have been Nammu. A lot of Mesopotamian texts start with Heaven and Earth being the first elements, so not every tradition starts with Nammu. Mesopotamia does not exactly have a very unified set of traditions to put it simply XD
 * 2. I will advise against separating Mesopotamian mythology into "Sumerian" and "Akkadian". There is a whole range of issues here, but Sumerian and Akkadian are languages spoken by the inhabitants of Southern Mesopotamia (Babylonia), not different groups of people. Sumerian had interactions with Semitic languages since a long time, heck the Sumerian King List contains names which are linguistically Semitic (Kish was in Northern Babylonia, where Sumerian was less dominant as it was in the south.) The name of the god Ishtaran is understood to be linguistically Semitic, but he was already attested in the Early Dynastic Period by kings like Enmetena and Lugalzagesi. Nanna and Sin was viewed to be the same god already in the Early Dynastic period too. There's other stuff to but the gist is that dividing a "Sumerian" and "Akkadian" mythology is practically impossible, and the inhabitants back then didn't consider Sumerian speakers and Akkadian speakers to be different groups of people. And also the fact that most Sumerian literature comes from the Ur III or Old Babylonian periods, and Sumerian was generally used for literature or administrative texts in the Ur III period (Shulgi is argued to be a native Akkadian speaker) and a functionally dead language in the Old Babylonian period (think Latin).
 * 3. Enuma Elish was certainly a popular text, but as always I would advise to be careful in treating the text as a representative of Mesopotamian cosmology. Not even in the rest of Babylonia was the Enuma Elish unanimously accepted.
 * "In modern times, the fundamental misunderstanding has been the common assumption that this text contains the Babylonian cosmology. In the very first publication of any part of the text, George Smith spoke of it as “the principal story of the Creation.”49 In the sense that it is the longest and best-preserved Babylonian text of this category, the statement is unexceptionable. But those factors do not constitute it a norm of Babylonian thinking. They merely reflect the situation that it was popular in the period when the libraries were formed from which most Babylonian literature has reached us. A thorough scrutiny of second-millennium materials of all kinds has only so far revealed traces of the raw materials from which the Epic is composed. It appears that toward the end of this millennium, the author, either starting or following a new trend among the priests of Marduk, composed a highly original work which ran counter to previously accepted opinion in most of the country. During the first millennium, the basic ideas of the Epic, though not always its particular expression of them, made considerable headway in ousting other conceptions. But tradition died hard, and even the political supremacy of the city Babylon did not result in the suppression of deviant myths. To this extent, the author failed. The traditional tolerance and mutual respect of the various cities did not completely disappear, and even in Babylon itself there were those who preferred forms of the myth other than those which our author tried to canonize." (Lambert 2013 "Babylonian Creation Myths" p.464-465)
 * I see that you tried to fix some stuff in the Enuma Elish section, but some parts of my advice still holds true. Actually I feel like the source you used in that section wasn't the best source, and it relied on a lot of dated information. Since it appears you already have access to Lambert's Babylonian Creation Myths I would advise you to use that on this section instead. Also Enki/Ea was not the only god credited with creation, Enlil was also credited with creation and humanity at least once. Oh and, Enlil being a wind god and his name meaning "lord wind" is disputed. I'm not the most familiar on the god Enlil though.
 * This is a huge project that needs to strike a delicate balance between diachronic and synchronic traditions across the Ancient Near East. I will definitely advise you to seek help from others in the respective WikiProjects, from WikiProject Ancient Near East, WikiProject Ancient Egypt etc. People there can give more tips about what to do with this page, and in all honesty a good number of them probably know more about this subject than I do :P. If the scope is too big, splitting up the article into multiple articles could also be an option.
 * (Also do you have plans to expand the underworld section? With descriptions of the underworld from other texts outside of Mesopotamia (Hurrian, Hittite, Elamite etc.) and also the afterlife in Ancient Egypt as well as the nature of the Duat and other Netherworld-y places? Also I feel like the entire cosmogonie section is kind of just Mesopotamia) Baldpotat0 (talk) 23:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello @User:Baldpotat0. Thank you so much for this. To a slight degree the page as it is emphasizes that the range of Enuma Elish's actual popularity ("was widely known in among learned circles across Mesopotamia") but I think your clarification here will be helpful and I will add this in. Also thanks for clarifying that Sumerian/Akkadian will not necesarily be an ethnic divide, which I should be clear of. My grasp is that Sumerian-language texts tend to be a little earlier, and Mesopotamian ones later, so there may be patterns of cosmological beliefs across these texts as you would expect from development over time.
 * The underworld section needs work absolutely.
 * As of now I don't think the page needs to be divided (what would it be divided into?). It is ~50k characters but I think it is definitely 'past' the halfway point and it does not necessarily need to cover **everything**: on the other hand I can imagine creating good summaries for each of the various points and then creating new pages around the subject matter of those summaries that users are referred to with a (Main Article) template if they want to read more comprehensively. That is actually what I already did to a degree. For example if you go to the Influence section, you will see Main article references for (1) Zoroastrian cosmology (2) Early Greek cosmology (3) Jewish cosmology (4) Hexaemeron. I created 1-3 and I substantially expanded 4. I also expanded the Firmament page a lot from the Cosmographies section. Wikipedia was really lacking in its coverage of ANE cosmology and what it inspired! But this is getting better now :)
 * If you know of additional papers/books/quotes on some of what you brought up send them my way and I will help integrate this content. Pogenplain (talk) 01:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello @User:Baldpotat0 Re the storm-god role: I reread Marduk entry noting the Schwemer 2007 rebuttal of the storm god role. Im now reading Noga Ayali-Darshan, especially The Storm-God and the Sea: The Origins, Versions, and Diffusion of a Myth throughout the Ancient Near East (2020). Ayali-Darshan offers a rejoinder that Marduk is a storm-god after all on p129-31. Do you think this could be added to the Marduk page? Pogenplain (talk) 07:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi @Pogenplain sorry for the belated reply, I was out of town and also sick for a few days so I couldn't type up a decent response. I appreciate your patience though.
 * I looked through Ayali-Darshan's work on page 129-131 and she referenced Schwemer on the role of Marduk being a storm god, except as mentioned before Schwemer had already pointed out that there isn't much information on Marduk being originally a storm god outside of a couple imageries with the storm and sometimes being identified with Adad. I can add that Marduk was occasionally identified with Adad in the section though, and Schwemer does point out in the reallexicon entry on weather gods that Marduk's profile partially overlaps with the storm god profile, although Marduk isn't the only god for that matter (aforementioned Ninurta and Tishpak, Martu, Telepinu etc.) ("Wettergott" Reallexicon der Assyriologie)
 * On Ayali-Darshan's argument that Marduk being a storm god because his storm imagery was stronger than Ninurta's in the Anzu myth, I personally feel like it's kinda weak? Schwemer points out in Wettergottgestalten that Ninurta has storm imageries outside of the Anzu myth as well, such as on Gudea's cylinder, and one of Ashurnasirpal II's inscription calls him "Lord of the storm and devastation" (see Wettergottgestalten p.172-175) and as mentioned above there's numerous other gods who also have storm imagery but don't exactly fit the definition of "storm god." But thats just me and I'm not an Assyriologist for that matter, just a hobbyist :P Baldpotat0 (talk) 22:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello @User:Baldpotat0 thanks for this, another user also dropped into my talk page and stated their agreement with you. I think I will leave the decision to you about if or how Ayali-Darshan should be incorporated into Marduk. Pogenplain (talk) 16:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for "Ancient near eastern cosmology"

 * Thank you @User:Feline Hymnic ! Pogenplain (talk) 20:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I've made a few minor adjustments; I hope they are improvements. Please feel free to check them. Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Ancient near eastern cosmology: what are "KAR 307", "AO 8196", etc.
Good continuing work on Ancient near eastern cosmology. This is an area on which I know nothing.

In a few places you mention texts (tablets?) "KAR 307" and "AO 8196". To the lay reader these references are obscure. I'm guessing that they may be somewhat analogous to things such as "4Q and "5Q" in Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls.  (Or might they be the museum where they were originally catalogued or housed?)

Are there any existing Wikipedia articles about "KAR 307" etc.? If so could they be wikilinked in KAR 307 style? I had a quick look but (unlike for DSS) couldn't find anything. I also did a Google search which lead me to a "Google Books" for Horowitz(1998), although that didn't really seem to have a glossary entry for the lay reader. If there are not (yet) any Wikipedia articles, then could you add a brief explanation or footnote/citation?

Thanks.

Feline Hymnic (talk) 12:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @User:Feline Hymnic KAR stands for Keilschrifttexte aus Assur religioösen Inhalts. This is a German work with many cuneiform inscription, KAR 307 is the 307th entry. This will explain everything. https://www.reddit.com/r/Assyriology/comments/u0wibi/where_can_i_read_this_socalled_kar_307_akkadian/. I will add a direct link to the inscription https://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/P336234. Maybe i can also make a new page on the KAR volume. Pogenplain (talk) 17:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. I had seen those links prior to typing my query to you. Perhaps the "oracc" one will suffice for the moment as an external citation. But (like you) I also thought a short WP article about "KAR" might also have its own value, as there is at least one other WP article whose text mentions "KAR 307".
 * All the best.
 * Feline Hymnic (talk) 18:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @User:Feline Hymnic I was about to create a short page on KAR but I didnt find secondary sources discussing this work in a meaningful way. If you can find any please send them my way and ill make the page, at this moment I am empty handed. Pogenplain (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Alas, way, way outside my areas! I'm a computer geek in IT support of science research.  The nearest I get to this ANE field is a non-professional interest in trying to persuade fellow Christians to read the opening chapters of Genesis against the backdrop of ANE cultures and prevailing cosmology which is so radically different from our much later post-Copernican worldview, and how Gen.1-11 works both that ANE backdrop and against it.
 * So I did a Google search for "KAR 307" (including the quotation marks which helps constrain it) and coming up with various Google books which mention it, such as:
 * Horovitz (1998)
 * Hetherington "Encyclopedia of Cosmology
 * Languages and Cultures in Contact
 * Female and Male: The Cultic Personnel
 * Do these work? Even a stub article about either KAR or KAR 307, and would seem preferable to the current complete absence.
 * Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @User:Feline Hymnic How is this? Keilschrifttexte aus Assur religiösen Inhalts Pogenplain (talk) 21:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That looks like a great start. I've taken the liberty of adding a relevant "stub" template to the end. Thanks!  Feline Hymnic (talk) 22:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Undefined sfn reference in Ancient near eastern cosmology
Hi, in this edit you add but no such source is defined in the article. This means that nobody can look up the reference, and the article is added to Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors. If you could supply the missing source it would be appreciated. DuncanHill (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello @User:DuncanHill I meant to write Hilber not Wilber, this is fixed, thank you for pointing it out. Pogenplain (talk) 00:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for fixing it. DuncanHill (talk) 01:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you so much @User:StarTrekker Pogenplain (talk) 15:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding info to lead rather than to appropriate sections
Hey, I've noticed that in the Nammu article you added information from Lisman's book to the lead but not to any of the appropriate section. Would appreciate if you fixed tat - the lead is a summary of what the article says and shouldn't contain information not present anywhere in it.

Also, please do not replace links to the official RlA edition with Academia.edu scans of individual articles, thanks in advance. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 06:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)


 * ALSO please re-read the sections of Lambert's Babylonian Creation Myths dealing with early attestations of Tiamat; Lisman is speculating in this case, and I think you should qualify such statements with some variety of "Jan Lisman proposes that [x]". Additionally, there is no reason to specify she was a Mesopotamian figure in the article of another Mesopotamian figure. With all due respect for the scope of your contributions, you seem to have issues with properly applying labels sometimes. Sumerian and Akkadian are merely languages, Nammu ultimately belongs to the exact same cultural milieu as Tiamat. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 06:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * On another note, since I'm here - I will also second what another user said - Marduk being a storm god is an outdated view, Ayali-Darshan's attempt at reviving it is an outlier. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 06:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello @User:HaniwaEnthusiast thank you. I have made an edit to fix for these advices. Pogenplain (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the late reply, it's a busy period for me.
 * I think it's perfectly fine as is, but perhaps It would be preferable if you broke that reference into multiple ones at some point in the future - does Lisman just repeat the same information more than once (over the course of multiple pages, at that), or are you offering a synthesis of multiple passages?
 * Also, as general advice for the future: it would be a good idea to consult reviews of Lisman's work, since while very informative, it has some methodological shortcomings. Nikita Artemov's review in Orientalistische Literaturzeitung vol 113 is particularly thorough in that regard. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 14:54, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Input request @ Talk:Jinn

 * An input request has been relisted to have more inputs about DUE/UNDUE relevance and fringe-ness at Talk:Jinn.
 * An input request has been relisted to have more inputs about DUE/UNDUE relevance and fringe-ness at Talk:Jinn.
 * Also A user has proposed updates for consideration at this sand box for the article Jinn.

As a discussion facilitator fyi a WP:DUE discussion (some aspects may touch WP:Fringe) is at Talk:Jinn stage's WP:RSN and WP:ORN step. After RSN and WP:ORN step, RfC formatting is likely to be discussed at Talk:Jinn in a new sub section.

This input request / intimation is made to you, looking at your previous contribution to the article Judaism in pre-Islamic Arabia (Xtool) or talk page there of.&#32;Bookku    (talk) 13:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)