User talk:Policja

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Hello, Policja, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! We're so glad you're here! Jim1138 (talk) 22:03, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
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Reply to "Your subjective opinion on the difference among humans is not a "fact""
Again, you attack me without even knowing anything about me. Let's see now

" I just want to say that after reading your recent posts in talk pages that just because you seem to choose to keep repeating the notion that "the little difference of DNA makes no difference among humans" does not stand up with the biological differences among the human races."

If you didn't know, there's no such thing as "human races", no Human population remained isolated long enough in order to be considered a distinct subspecies, I reckon you're the subjective one, although since I don't know you, I can't possibly know.

"I see you're trying to keep repeating this in talk pages to try and push forward "I consider myself of German and Polish ancestry" despite the fact you admit you're not ethnically descended from these two ethnic groups but on the contrast of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry."

True, I'm from Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, not German or Polish, I was wrong, people make mistakes you know.

"Why do you do this? It's a huge contradiction. Perhaps read up on the differences among the races and stop being so ignorant."

However since I look at modern science rather than late 19th century science I know that there's no such thing as a distinct "human race" today, the last of them were the Neanderthals, and they went extinct roughly 30,000 years ago, since then we're the only "human race" around. Perhaps you're the ignorant one on this subject.

"Your subjective opinions are hugely wrong, the same as you think all Polish Jews consider themselves just as Polish, this is all wrong. I very much DOUBT you have spoke to every single person in Poland of Jewish ancestry and asked them "are you Polish or Jewish?". The two are separate ethnic groups, deal with it."

Assuming your name is Polish perhaps you have a problem with some Jews of recent Polish ancestry identifying as such? As I live in Israel and am in contact with other Jews of Polish ancestry, I can tell you without a doubt that all Jews who have ancestry in Poland I have met recognised that part of their ancestry as "Polish". How about you deal with that mate? Guy355 (talk) 15:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Falling for the left wing liberal lies that race does not exist biologically is a myth. Its been proven time and time again that race exists, you can research this yourself.

So you're an ethnic Jew, not a person of German or Polish descent.

Nobody has spoke about 19th century science (although many of this is still valid and further such as Coon's work. There is plenty of scientists out there who have proven race does exist and that there is differences among us.

I'm Polish indeed, there is no reason to discuss what my views are on anything, this is not what we are discussing so go away with the red herrings and stick on this. The Jews in Israel will say "I'm Jewish but my roots come from Poland" not "I'm Jewish but my ethnic roots are ethnic Germans and ethnic Poles". They are separate ethnic groups/people.

It should be noted that there are Jewish ethnic divisions, there's a clear difference between for example Ashkenazi Jews and Mizrahi Jews, the differences are genetic, cultural and linguistic, genetically Ashkenazi Jews plot in the gap between Near Eastern and European populations, between Cypriots and Greeks, and alongside Maltese and Sicilians, while Mizrahi Jews like Iraqi or Iranian Jews plot next to if I remember correctly Christian Assyrians, and Muslim Kurds, although there is a common ancestry of Ashkenazi, Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews in the Middle East around 2,500 years ago, already around that time the Ashkenazis/Sephardis diverged from Mizrahis, and Ashkenazis eventually diverged from the Mizrahis. The best representation for pre Islamic Levantines are the Cypriots, therefore this suggests Ashkenazis admixed with a European or a European like population, possibly Hellenistic Greeks, considering the fact AJs don't have West European Hunter Gatherer ancestry (which BTW, Maltese and Sicilians lack as well). But I digress, my point is that since around 2,500 years ago, the main Jewish groups diverged and became distinct (although Ashkenazis and Sephardis, especially Turkish and Greek Jews, are almost indistinguishable). Some Jewish populations like Yemenite and Ethiopian Jews don't even share a common ancestry. Guy355 (talk) 16:00, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Because Jews are an ethnoreligious group and some over the years have changed their religion to Judaism but still remain an ethnic "insert here" and then you also have the ethnic Jews who may not even be religious but are still Jewish.--Policja (talk) 16:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

To say Jews are an ethnic group is very general, like you said there are groups like Yemenite Jews or Ethiopian Jews who while religiously are Jewish, but ethnically are Arabic and Amharic respectively. And obviously there are are people who belong to a Jewish ethnic division (Ashkenazis, Sephardis, Mizrahis etc.) but are religiously Christian, Muslim, irreligious etc. Back to the point though, due to over 2,500 years of diaspora, those who were once the Israelite Jews have diversified into Jewish ethnic divisions, and thus are distinct from one another, Ashkenazi Jews plot in the gap between Europeans and Near Easterners, between Greeks and Cypriots and alongside Maltese and Sicilians, most Mizrahi Jews plot next to Christian Assyrians and Muslim Kurds, Sephardi Jews tend to plot next to Cypriots and Lebanese. While all remain in the boundaries of Southeastern Europe/Western Asia, they have diversified, otherwise they'd all plot next to Cypriots today. Just like since the Gypsy migration from the Indian subcontinent have diversified into several groups, like since the Slavic migrations the Slavs have diversified into many distinct groups. In all these cases, the groups have a common ancestry, but are also distinct due to diversification via isolation from one another, admixture with other populations etc. So my point is to call Jews an ethnicity is quite general, it's like to call Slavs an ethnic group, if I'm wrong however please feel free to correct me, this is how I thought it is, but I could be wrong, after all Ashkenazis/Sephardis are probably called "ethnic divisions" for a reason. Guy355 (talk) 16:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I have question BTW. The Hungarians claim a descent from the Magyars of the Volga-Ural region right? But genetically it's clear the Hungarians mainly descend from the pre Magyar settlement population i.e a native Central/Eastern European population rather than a migratory invading one from far Eastern Europe. Does this mean the Hungarians are in denial? Guy355 (talk) 16:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Like I said, that is because Jews are both an ethnic group and a religious group. Technically anybody can become a Jew but on the flip side one can also be born Jewish (mother) or have Jewish ancestry. Even the state of Israel acknowledges the Right for Return to those of Jewish ancestry. The Israeli laws share that very similar to the Nuremberg Laws on the definition of a Jew and who is entitled to be a citizen of the state ("who is a Jew"). The term Slavic is like Germanic, Celtic and others and is nothing more than a linguistic term used to describe the grouping of languages such as East Slavs (e.g Ukrainians & Russians).

In regards to your questions on Hungarians, well I guess that depends on which Hungarian you ask. Read part of the Hungarians article Hungarians.--Policja (talk) 16:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah someone who studied Israeli politics told me just that... The very close similarities as to how Israeli law identifies a Jew, and how the Nuremberg laws defined a Jew. So what you're saying is that while Judaism is a religion, it's also an ethnicity, hence an ethnoreligious group, like the Druze (although the difference is that while like you said anybody can become Jewish by religion, Druze religion is exclusive to those born into it i.e ethnic Druze). And just like when it comes to say... Italian ethnicity, you have ethnic divisions (North Italians, Tuscans, Central Italians, South Italians, Sicilians etc) i.e Ashkenazi Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Sephardi Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews correct?

Really? I was certain Hungarians identify as Magyars... You know what? I AM ignorant. xD Guy355 (talk) 16:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

There is quite a parallel in the definitions of a Jew in both the laws, especially since both specifically go into the meaning in terms of ethnicity and not just religion (which refutes when people claim that Jews are just people who follow a religion). Italians themselves are an ethnic group and just that, the northern and southern Italians both belong to the same ethnic group—Italians—but there is some identities in different areas like a lot of Sicilians just consider themselves Sicilians only or at least Sicilians first, Italians second. You have an ethnic group and then sub-groups for example Ashkenazi Jews are the ethnic group and the sub groups are the peoples such as Western Jews, Polish Jews, Lithuanian Jews and so on.

Tbh, I've never spoken to a Hungarian person so I could not say. Perhaps ask on the Hungarian talk page.--Policja (talk) 16:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I suppose it's not that different from Ashkenazi Jews, who, while linguistically speak a West Germanic language (Yiddish), are clearly genetically not German, but East Mediterranean, in the gap between Europe and the Near East, next to Maltese and Sicilians, between Cypriots and Greeks. Or Sephardi Jews, who, linguistically speak Ladino, are genetically not Spanish, but also, East Mediterranean, they plot next to Cypriots and Lebanese. Guy355 (talk) 16:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I see. And like British is an ethnic group, but many identify as English/Welsh/Scottish/Cornish/Northern Irish first and British second? I have another question, assuming Ashkenazi Jews are (which they are) a distinct ethnicity, where does that put them in the ethnoreligious group of Jews? Are we like a distinct ethnicity within the larger ethnoreligious Jewish ethnicity/nation? Because genetically we are different from Mizrahi/Sephardi Jews, we seem to be closer to Europe, plotting next to Maltese and Sicilians rather than Cypriots and Lebanese (where Sephardis plot) or next to Christian Assyrians or Muslim Kurds (Where Mizrahis plot). Guy355 (talk) 17:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Greek Cypriots are the native ethnic group to Cyprus. Ashkenazi Jews are a division among ethnic Jews.--Policja (talk) 19:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Yup, I was just saying that genetically speaking Greek Cypriots plot on the tip of the Near East, Mainland Greeks plot on the tip of Europe, and Ashkenazi Jews, Maltese and Sicilians plot in the gap between them. Yup, Ashkenazi Jews are a division of ethnic Jews, like Mizrahi, Sephardi, Yemenite and Ethiopian Jews, and now, thanks to you, I think I'm finally past my identity crisis, I'm an ethnic Jew (although not a religious one), I belong to the Ashkenazi division i.e I'm an Ashkenazi Jew, my ancestry is from Germany and Poland (although I'm not an ethnic German or Pole). :) Guy355 (talk) 19:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

(y). You may want to check your ancestry though you might have some ethnic German or ethnic Polish ancestry since your ancestors may have just converted to Judaism. Who knows? Nothing stopping you from researching your family tree.--Policja (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I did, I looked at all the roots I managed to find, they're all ethnic Ashkenazi Jews, except one woman who may have been an ethnic Pole, but I'm not entirely sure, her maiden name was Zolka, does it sound Polish? Guy355 (talk) 19:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Indeed but as you probably know Poland's borders has changed an incredible lot from a couple of centuries ago and the partitions also seen a lot of other ethnic groups live in Poland such as Germans. Even the national hero Dabrowski was of German descent.--Policja (talk) 19:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. Eastern Europe changed borders many times throughout history, especially in the last 100 years. Just to make it clear the "indeed" was the confirmation that Zolka is Polish? Guy355 (talk) 19:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I can't be 100% certain whether or not its Polish. Zolka in Polish means "yellowing". So the chances are its Polish, its definitely Slavic though.--Policja (talk) 10:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I see... Well this woman is my direct maternal ancestor or my grandma's maternal great great grandma. I had a DNA test and I found out that my direct maternal lineage is an exclusive Ashkenazi Jewish haplogroup (K1a9), however, since it's her surname that is Slavic, it's possible that her dad was an ethnic Pole who married an ethnic Jew and so the child was half Polish half Jewish. I don't think that's completely impossible, it was during the 1810's, after the Napoleonic wars, so it's possible an ethnic Pole may have fallen in love with a Jewess and married her, the child's first name is a Policized Jewish name though (Sury Laj Zolka was her full name), so it's possible the dad wasn't Jewish, however he decided to convert but it was convenient for the Polish name to stick. I know of many other people in Israel who have ancestry in Poland who have some Polish ancestry. Guy355 (talk) 11:03, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Poland had at one point the largest Jewish population. Other Eastern European countries most notably Russia also have had a large Jewish population and also at one time the largest. It's quite possible I don't think you ever will know but I am aware that most Jews just married other Jews and most Poles just married other Poles, although of course on a small scale of individual cases there will have been some ethnic Jew-ethnic Pole marriages.

Anyhow, have a good day!--Policja (talk) 13:10, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Yup, before the 2nd world war Poland had a Jewish population of about 3.3 million. And while it's true that by and large twas Poles with Poles and Jews with Jews, it's not impossible for some individual exceptions. I guess I will never know if Sury's dad was ethnically Polish or Jewish, although the fact that his surname was Polish/Slavic can give me the ability to claim to perhaps be 1/128th Polish, I know that it may sound strange, even if it's true, it's so far away, but for an ethnically homogeneous person such as myself, when it seems that I'm completely Jewish, anything out of the ordinary will get me excited, just like the other way around, when for example, ethnic Spaniards find out they have some Jewish ancestry, thus getting them so excited that they may even recognise this ancestry, even though it's distant (even more distant than my supposed Polish ancestry, which is 8 generations i.e 200 years away, in their case it's 500 years away!).

Thanks, you too! :) Guy355 (talk) 13:21, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

OH YEAH! Another reason to believe Sury was half Polish half Jewish is that when she immigrated to Australia, when describing her ethnicity, she was classified as "a Pole, and a Jewess" according to the records my Grandma has. That combined with her Polish surname leads I guess to the high possibility or at least the legit claim that I'm 1/128th Polish. :) Guy355 (talk) 14:02, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, on small scales there has been cases of Jews (in the ethnic sense) of mixing with Germans, Poles, Spaniards, Arabs, Berbers and so on... since the Jewish population is widely spread its obvious there has been some individual cases of ethnic Jews mixing with non-Jews.

Read the Wikipedia article Genetic studies on Jews, lots of information there.--Policja (talk) 15:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check it out. Guy355 (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted that during the Hellenistic age many Jews became Hellenised, they adopted Greek names, spoke Greek and Aramaic, the first Jews recorded in Europe had Greek names. They also created a new denomination of Judaism, called "Hellenistic Judaism", it's also possible that they admixed with Hellenistic Greeks, because back then Judaism passed from the dad, therefore it was easier to marry non Jewish Greek women without having to worry the children won't be Jewish. Hence why Ashkenazi Jews plot between Cypriots and Greeks, alongside Sicilians and Maltese, who were also influenced by the Greeks during their history. Guy355 (talk) 15:21, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014
Hello, I'm Jim1138. I wanted to let you know that I undid one of your recent contributions, such as the one you made with this edit to Racial policy of Nazi Germany, because it didn’t appear constructive to me. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Jim1138 (talk) 20:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Racial policy of Nazi Germany. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Please be particularly aware, Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Jim1138 (talk) 21:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts.
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

I've opened a new section and tried to initiate a chat with this user. However, just looking at for example [] it seems this user even wants to deny Nazis own evidence of the definition "Aryan". There is not a single bit of evidence Slavs were ever considered non-Aryan. Wikipedia is about being neutral and not biased, there is overwhelming evidence the Nazis considered Slavs to be Aryan. There is also evidence of many Nazis considering them to be racially inferior and/or subhuman but this does not equal non-Aryan.--Policja (talk) 22:06, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abuse of multiple accounts: User:English Patriot Man. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice:. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Diannaa (talk) 23:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)