User talk:Procla

= The "hate" scripture : Luke 14:26-27 = 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. How is this compatible with :-

The "love" scripture : John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son {or: his only begotten Son}, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. What is more important than any answers to the question of contrast in this, is pondering the question itself. It was a much-held realisation of a decade or so ago that :  	Protestants argue about what Jesus said, but didn't actually mean; but  	Catholics argue about what Jesus meant, but didn't actually say! However, in my own personal experience, there are finer shades of grey :  	The Jesuits, Franciscans and Dominicans :	I say this is what it means for me!  	The 6-day Creationists :			I say this is what it means for you!  	The Baptists and Pentecostals :		What do you say this means for me?  	The Evangelicals and Charismatics :		What do you say this means for you?  	The Jews : 					Jesus, what Jesus?  	The Mormons : 				Jesus is cool, but what does John Smith say?! Since last week I have done a fair bit of research on Luke 14:26-27 :

Topic 1 : All Greek variants use the word mis(ey)(oh) for "hate", described as follows (I was trying to upload those to imgur.com as two albums, which is taking too long, nor can I figure out how wikimedia's &lt;gallery&gt; or work either   	Luke 14;26 Greek Versions.Gif   	Luke 14;26 interlinear.Gif But I did find the equivalent of this scripture in the proto gospel (Mark), and the first revision of this (Matthew)

Mark;10-29 interlinear.Gif Mark;10-29 Greek versions.Gif Matt;19-29 Greek Versions.Gif Matt;19-29 interlinear.Gif

mis(ey)(oh): Strong's #3430 (from a primitive Greek word misos(hatred) although this word does not occur in the NT Greek and is not defined in Strong's Concordance). The meaning is written exactly like this "to detest, to persecute, to love less :- hate (-ful)" The entire NT was written in Greek using only around 5560 words, so it is feasible that many words could have multiple meanings (for example one of the three words for "to love" also means "to kiss" ( fileo pron. f(ee)l(ey)(oh), #5368 ).  The betrayer did not kiss Jesus as an act of love, even though he was a disciple.  This is also a difficult question to explain - if he met the conditions of Luke 14:26, how could he love money more than Jesus? I am inclined to think that the alternative meaning, "to love less", was added after the fact, simply because otherwise Luke 14:26 would be difficult to accept.  Reading the commentary in  	commentary luke 14;26.rtf  (attached) this also seems to support this, the classical "Christian Apologetic". You can look through the following electronics concordance listing for hate, and see if any other occurrences legitimately follow the above meaning  	hate - concordance entries.rtf    (attached) hate - dictionary entries.rtf   (attached)

Topic 2 : Strong's concordance points to three illustrative uses of mis(ey)(oh):#3430 and all are the conventional meaning of hate, as opposed to love-less : Matt 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor [Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.'  John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil."   Rom 9:13  As it is written Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated.

Topic 3 : The NIV uses the precise word "hate" only around 80 times, I have not looked for shades of meaning here yet. Topic 4 : What English words could be related to the Greek misos (hatred) - do they give any insight? There are many, those that definitely do relate to hatred : misanthropy	= hatred of people misandry	= hatred of men misogyny	= hatred of women misogamy	= hatred of marriage misology	= hatred of learning misoneism	= hatred of change those that probably relate to hatred missile		= object launched for offensive purposes miser		= one who hates to spend money misery		= state of mind in which nothing is lovely and those that Luke 14:26 commands us to hate mister		= man, of age missus	= wife miss		= unmarried woman, young girl Topic 5 : So what is the truth? This question is posed to Jesus by Pilate in John 18:38, but it is not answered in this gospel. ''37 'You are a king, then!' said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." ''38 'What is truth?' Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, 'I find no basis for a charge against him.' '' '' It is in fact answered in the Gospel of Nicodemus, which records the private conversation between Jesus and Pilate. Very similar to John 3:1-21, which contains the "love scripture", and which was the private conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Maybe you will find answers here : There are 750 results - go to the search hit for "EarlyChristianWritings" -

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?n=100&ei=UTF-8&va_vt=any&vo_vt=any&ve_vt=any&vp_vt=any&vst=0&vf=all&vm=i&fl=0&fr=yfp-t-702&p=%22what+is+truth%22+%22gospel+of+nicodemus%22&vs= Attachments - loaded on two imgurl.com albums as follows

&lt;&lt; IMGUR.COM is taking forever to upload these - will update later &gt;&gt; Luke 14;26 Greek Versions.Gif Luke 14;26 interlinear.Gif Mark;10-29 interlinear.Gif Mark;10-29 Greek versions.Gif Matt;19-29 Greek Versions.Gif Matt;19-29 interlinear.Gif commentary luke 14;26.rtf  saved as single page .gif hate - dictionary entries.rtf  saved as single page .gif hate - concordance entries.rtf saved as 8 pages of .gif Procla (talk) 14:36, 19 November 2012 (UTC)