User talk:Profero

A welcome from Sango123
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Happy Wiki-ing!

-- Sango  123  23:34, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you need help with anything or simply wish to say hello. :)
 * Thank you Sango! Profero 09:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

http://www.nationmaster.com/ == ==

Anyone – please give me an answer to this: What is the relation between Wikipedia and http://www.nationmaster.com/ ? Profero 18:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

nationmaster.com
That's a mirror. You may want to look at Mirrors and forks. -- Phroziac (talk) 19:06, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I see it's a mirror, but how can mirrorsites that also contain commercial content be allowed to use our work strictly intended for non-commercial purposes? Profero 09:46, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Our content is licensed for any use, as long as they tell that it's from wikipedia and give a way to see the authors. As for your message on my talk, HUH? -- Phroziac (talk) 13:19, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

Civility and Development
I am not writing this because of the simple "HUH" above, but as a general reaction to what seems to be a negative language culture many places on Wiki. Please, for the sake of Wiki, try to stick to relevant facts and leave out words like "Fucking", "Dipshit", "Smackbot", "Screwed, "Huh", "Yeesh", "Shit", "Wow", sarcastic comments, etc., just to mention a few found at quick glance. Words like these are considered slang and mostly vulgar or childish. Wiki is used all over the world, and should be used with wisdom in an as educated manner as possible. We all make mistakes, don't we. That's a part of the game of development. Use of contemptuous language often gives an impression that the user is suffering from more or less severe immaturity. I would like to be able to stimulate people that are more knowledgeable and sophisticated than myself to join in the building of a mature community, rather than see them shrug and pass an impression of a kindergarten.  Of course, as long as there is no initial test for admittance, we must learn to deal with this problem as best we can continuously. By the way, I see that abusive use can be blocked in different ways, but how does this apply to similar behaviour in the "upper part" of the Wiki hierarchy? 

If you have any constructive comments to this point of view or anything else that is relevant, either to language or substance, you are very welcome to use this discussion page in a polite way. --Profero 12:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * For your information, Smackbot is a bot written by Rich Farmbrough. Imroy 21:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like I tripped there when I copied some words. But thanks, that was actually constructive information. Is everything else relevant then, in your opinion? --Profero 21:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

No. Lets look at the chain of events, shall we?


 * 1) You upload some photos and try to incorporate them into the Photo manipulation article. You have some trouble with the layout and ask a vague question on the article's talk page.
 * 2) I respond with my opinion and some suggestions. I provide a link to Meta:Help:Table, about using the Wikipedia table format. Nothing out of the ordinary here, something I've done dozens of times before. I originally wanted to fix the page, even reverting your work. But I left it so you could work on it yourself.
 * 3) You revert your additions to the article, and respond to me on the article talk page. You provide links to the Wikipedia civility, etiquitte, and 'No personal attacks' pages, implying I was somehow violating them.
 * 4) I respond, telling you to be more specific in requesting help. I claim that what I wrote was not uncivil or a personal attack. I add 'yeesh' at the end as an expression of exasperation that this issue has blown up like this.
 * 5) Apparently incensed by 'yeesh' and other stronger language on my talk page, you fire off a response on my talk page and the article talk page. You then elaborate further on your own talk page, as well as the Wikipedia Village pump talk page. Although you don't name me, you quote some of my more extreme words out of context, as well as some pretty ordinary words. You claim that these words are vulgar and childish, and further imply that people like myself are somehow hurting Wikipedia.

In closing, I must say I can't believe this has blown up like this. Ok, I was probably a little harsh when I said you'd "screwed up the layout". I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean it in such a negative manner. It was a throw-away comment not meant to attract this much attention.

But does that really warrant this personal attack? It's especially hypocritical considering you originally accused me of a personal attack. I may be a little biased here, but I think you've now done much worse than my original comment.

I think we both need to take a break and cool down. Imroy 02:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree with your last sentence, and we can let other users judge who has been rude, hypocritical, who has been worse, etc., hopefully as good or bad examples for the benefit of developing polite manners of communication. We have both been criticized at the Village Pump. --Profero 09:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Copyright of images
Hi Profero,

I see you are unhappy about the removal of attribution information at af:R. D. Laing. We do not take copyright and attribution lightly at Wikipedia. In fact, for each image, a whole page is devoted to specifying copyright, attribution and other information pertaining to an image. This is the way we do it for millions of images over all Wikimedia projects. I believe this to be conformant to the GFDL under which you have licenced your image. If you feel that all Wikimedia projects do not conform to the GFDL by not displaying attribution of each contributor at each use of each image, please raise the matter in the correct legal forums. I do however believe it to be in order to specify this information at the image description page, which ensures that all uses of the picture can reach a complete version of the copyright, attribution and other relevant information. Regards, af:Gebruiker:Alias


 * Hello Alias. Thank you for your response. I have agreed to the GFDL use of my images, as far as I understand the guidelines – but I must admit that I find the whole matter of copyright issues rather complicated and not very easy to understand without further study, especially as the rules are different in different countries.  My intention, however, is that my pictures on Wiki can be used freely by anyone. This I think is generous and should be appreciated with clear explicit credit – even if I may not be able to, or even wish to, demand credit on any legal  ground. It is just a matter of politeness, and if politeness is not regarded as a relevant factor in such a case, I feel very   unhappy about it, and why should that be a policy   if not necessary?  Anyone would feel appreciated if given credit, and why should that be a problem at all? Finally, I think that anyone must agree that lack of such a minimal degree of politeness probably would discourage quite a few uploads of good pictures. And I believe that that   can’t be the intention of any policy. So, if you please, feel free to use my picture(s) with credit under each picture, unless there somewhere is a legal demand not   to do so. And if there is, for some reason, please let me know. Profero 11:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I definitely don't want to appear to be ungreatful or disrespectful for your contribution - obviously we value all contributions. It seems we only disagree on what flavour of attribution is adequate/desirable/just. Your mention of "minimal degree of politeness" strikes me as a bit strange: As I say, a *whole page* is devoted to providing information on each image. More than a mere "minimal degree" of attribution. Your suggestion that it is not polite (ie rude) is unfortunate. It becomes unwieldy if we have to provide inline credits to all contributors to each article. That could easily include up to tens of authors for an article and several contributors to each image (especially for diagrams and maps). It would become a bit difficult if each contributor specified their own, unique demands for attribution. If I make a derived work of the image (say to sharpen it) in my capacity as an employee of a company and I demand that "Copyright 2006 Greater Johannesburg institute for the advancement of multilingualism in the workplace"  appear directly at each use of the picture, together with your attribution, don't you think it will become unwieldy? It is therefore not merely a matter of legallity or politeness, but also of practicallity. It seems that you therefore do not accept the form of attribution given for your contributions, and I'm struggling to understand why you demand attribution different from all that given with the other millions of images. Nowhere does any contributor to article text get any more credit than his/her name appearing in the history of the article. I don't want to fight a war, so I'll probably leave the matter, but just wanted to explain my actions. I thought we were doing more than being "merely polite". I believe we are following the GFDL not only in letter, but also in spirit. Kind regards, af:Gebruiker:Alias

I am very sorry to have expressed myself in a way to be interpreted as if I meant you, or anyone else, to be rude. This is absolutely far from my mind in this case, and I realize I have been unclear, which I apologize for, and by continuing the discussion I hope not to be seen as argumentative. I thought, perhaps, I had, and have, a constructive argument. By saying “minimal politeness” I only mean to say that I think that under each image should be a short line mentioning who is the creator of the image. Having the credit under the picture deleted was absolutely new for me, as I haven’t seen this been done before on any Wiki page in other languages, and found it strange to see it disappear without explanation. (Please understand that I know I am very novice, so I’m really not on a ‘high horse’ here.) That is what triggered the discussion on to the principal level of discussion we are on now.

Copyright or crediting of images discussion II
I am not convinced of the impracticality of first page credits. Considering the benefits for everyone as I suggested before, isn’t it, on the contrary, quite practical (useful). Let there be no doubt that I agree with you that it obviously would be very impractical to credit everyone who contributes with text, or edits, in the articles. You gave an example of impractical consequences of this, and I take it you understand that I never proposed that kind of crediting. Your exemplification of impracticality by "Copyright 2006 Greater Johannesburg…” I agree is relevant, but a problem arising from such extremeness would be very rare, don’t you think? If this actually is an experienced problem I give in and instead propose that under each picture there should be an unambiguous and clear reference link to image-credit and other information.

If it is a matter of fairness, though, in relation to text contributors I can see a point there, but I have a feeling that good images would be harder to come by without actually having to pay for them. Perhaps I am totally wrong, and perhaps I am insulting a lot of hard working contributors of text. (Though I am also a text worker.) In either case, I hope not, and apologize if I do seem to. However, I think there is a benefit for Wiki, in that other owners of pictures will let their works be used by Wiki-editors more often if credited explicitly on the article page. That is what I am reasoning for. Perhaps I am underestimating the average reader’s understanding and willingness of clicking the image itself to get more information, and potential contributor’s contentment of such indirect credit though.  Finally, let me say that I am very happy to be a part of the Wiki community, as an editor, a contributor of pictures and as a seeker of knowledge. I also appreciate very much the friendly manners in which I have had the fortune to discuss with, and bee guided by, you and others, on the ‘Wikipath’, and remain open for further reasoning. Thank you again. --Profero 18:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The thing is that a front page text distracts from the main text, especially since it seems to be the standard to not use them. I do agree with you that people who contribute must always be credited (afterall, some of the images that we speak of are GFDL-licensed images, which requires this explicitly). I firmly believe that credits or copyright notices are best off being in the image description, since the image description should contain the data about the image, and the article should only contain information about the article. Copyright notifications don't have a place in the main article namespace.
 * I don't think that there would be an abundance of images that we may use if we'd give it a front page credit statement. However, it doesn't even matter for almost all images; they can be used either as fair use or without even asking the author if the picture is GFDL or Creative Commons-licensed.
 * In short, I'm not convinced that a credit statement would be beneficial. There aren't more artists to persuade with and it doesn't seem to be correct to credit picture authors while text authors are credited elsewhere. I'm an artist too, although I only really do text contributions on Wikipedia (I've added some images to Extensible Firmware Interface, though). —Michiel Sikma, 14:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you Sikma for a very informative reply, and to take the bother to board it. Respectfully yours, --Profero 01:40, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

'Atomic'
Hi, Wiktionary (here) gives four definitions of 'atomic.' I'm using the fourth. --Smack (talk) 19:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right that I'm using the word loosely, because strictly speaking, the bit is the only atomic data type in a computer. However, in a way, something like an   is atomic when compared to an array.  How much do you know about computer science?
 * As for talk-page etiquette, I believe that general practice is to post like we're posting now: all of one person's comments on one page, and all of the other person's comments on the other. However, I like to keep everything in one place.  When I post on people's talk pages, I usually watchlist them, and  the boilerplate notice (User:Smack/reply-here). --Smack (talk) 02:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Coandă effect
Aloha! I made some changes to the captions of the images, but I like where you've put the images. Of course, I'm biased in that opinion as you put my image at the top ;) I think the animation page can use some tweaking, but it definitely is a good preliminary start!  With our powers combined, the Coandă effect will have a proper article! Axda0002 02:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

VNC Loop
Sorry but we have clear rules against neologisms and for notability. AlistairMcMillan 19:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Profero, thanks for your comments at Articles_for_deletion/VNC_Loop, but a Keep or Delete vote would be appreciated as well. --Amit 20:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem. WP:NEO and WP:NOTE. AlistairMcMillan 20:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

No worries. I can see you aren't on the list of people he lobbied. AlistairMcMillan 21:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it is difficult to find where this is specified. I just know it from experience from being involved in AFDs and watching the Admin board. If I find a definitive source I'll update this. AlistairMcMillan 23:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Spinning wheel picture
When you reverted some recents changes to Spinning wheel you also removed a picture (Image:Spinningwheel1.jpg). Did you mean to do that? Tocharianne 17:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I am sorry for that. The intent was to revert to a version that was orderly. If you would like to do it in way that keeps the wheel, please do so. --Profero 18:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I was going to add it back but someone else beat me to it! Tocharianne 18:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * :-) --Profero 18:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Missing information
Well the problem is, people who go to Per's article now won't see that information at all unless they also go to Jen's article...which they may not, and the information on the escape is equally relevant to both of them.

I know it's "not popular", but I wonder what you'd think about combining the two articles into "Per Bergsland and Jens Müller"? I could point to Bei-Alla and Musa Tsechoyev as precedent that "these two people have virtually the same story", and it allows us to present "all the facts" to anybody who searches for either name. Thoughts? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 17:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

commons:Image:Shanti Devi Sthlm 1983-vvsm-DSCN2612.jpg
Hi Profero, I'm trying to categorize (esp. sailing) ships a bit more accurately and came across the beautiful picture that you've uploaded to. Do you happen to know whether this is a Swedish ship? If not under a Swedish flag, under which flag does (and did) it sail? Thanks, Ibn Battuta 23:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Batuba, It was built in Sweden, but is now under Norwegian flag. For a few years it was registered in Gibraltar. See the article Shanti Devi. --Profero 09:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot! (PS: BTW, it's Ibn Battuta, like the real Ibn Battuta :o)) --Ibn Battuta 22:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm sorry Battutie! Seriously, no sweat :D  --Profero 02:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yule
The article has always noted that Yule predates Christianity, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Do you have a source which states that Yule was celebrated on the solstice in pre-Christian times? As far as the primary sources go, Bede gave December 25 as the date of Yule in Anglo-Saxon England while Sturluson gave December 14 for Norway. I assume both dates are only approximate, but neither of them suggests a solstice connection. The solstice is more difficult to observe than phases of the moon, which is what most primative calendars are based on. Kauffner 12:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that the moon is easier to observe has been crucial, I also have made that a point, but the turning of the wheel, (Yule/Jol/Hjul or whatever) and the returning of the sun cycle is the main concept here - and that was what was celebrated, even if the timing was not astronomically correct. --Profero 02:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Copyright problems with Image:Axel Jensen ved Piano-AJ2.jpg
An image that you uploaded, Image:Axel Jensen ved Piano-AJ2.jpg, has been listed at Copyright problems because it is a suspected copyright violation. Please look there if you know that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), and then provide the necessary information there and on its page, if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. meco 11:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikimania 2010 could be coming to Stockholm!
I'm leaving you a note as you may be interested in this opportunity.

People from all six Nordic Wiki-communities (sv, no, nn, fi, da and is) are coordinating a bid for Wikimania 2010 in Stockholm. I'm sending you a message to let you know that this is occurring, and over the next few months we're looking for community support to make sure this happens! See the bid page on meta and if you like such an idea, please sign the "supporters" list at the bottom. Tack (or takk), and have a wonderful day! Mike H. Fierce! 11:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Coandă effect movies
Hi. I have tagged this page for speedy deletion, because it is not an article. Usually these would go on the image page (and you did put a summary there). That is all that is needed. Not trying to make you feel unwelcome or anything; that's just protocol here. If you need help with anything, don't hesitate to ask me. ☭ Dictator of all Infernal Proletariat Penguins in the USSR  ☭ 20:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, If inappropriate it should perhaps be removed. However my argument for establishing "movie-pages" still is that I find most animations on text-pages quite distracting to the reading. So in my opinion "movie-pages" that also refer back to the main page are well motivated, and thus the policy instead should be changed.--Profero (talk) 06:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
Hello Profero! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created  is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the unreferencedBLP tag. Here is the article:

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 08:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Liv Mildrid Gjernes -

File permission problem with File:Jens Müller in Stalag Luft III.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Jens Müller in Stalag Luft III.jpg. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file agreed to license it under the given license.

If you created this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either
 * make a note permitting reuse under the CC-BY-SA or another acceptable free license (see this list) at the site of the original publication; or
 * Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to , stating your ownership of the material and your intention to publish it under a free license. You can find a sample permission letter here.

If you did not create it entirely yourself, please ask the person who created the file to take one of the two steps listed above, or if the owner of the file has already given their permission to you via email, please forward that email to .

If you believe the media meets the criteria at Non-free content, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags, and add a rationale justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Rettetast (talk) 14:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Rettetast, hope this e-mail does it:
 * From: Jonathan Vance  • Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:47:39 -0500
 * To: Profero  • Subject: RE: Photo credit
 * From: Jonathan Vance  Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:54:19 -0400
 * To: 'Profero' <profero@xxxx.xx> • Subject: RE: Photo credit
 * You are welcome to use the photo, as long as the following credit is noted: Photo courtesy Jonathan F. Vance, Canada Research Chair, The University of Western Ontario." The original was given to me many years ago by Per Bergsland, but I'm afraid I don't know who took it - I expect it was a German photographer brought in to do propaganda shots.
 * Regards, JonathanF. Vance, PhD Professor and Canada Research Chair Department of History, University of Western Ontario
 * -Original Message- From: Profero [mailto: profero@xxxx.xx]
 * Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:13 PM To: jvance@xxxx.xx
 * Subject: Photo credit
 * --Profero (talk) 07:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please forward the mail to the above e-mail address. However the permission should mention which license the copyright holder release the image under. Rettetast (talk) 14:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * --Profero (talk) 07:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please forward the mail to the above e-mail address. However the permission should mention which license the copyright holder release the image under. Rettetast (talk) 14:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Hariton_Pushwagner.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Hariton_Pushwagner.jpg. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file agreed to license it under the given license.

If you created this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either
 * make a note permitting reuse under the CC-BY-SA or another acceptable free license (see this list) at the site of the original publication; or
 * Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to , stating your ownership of the material and your intention to publish it under a free license. You can find a sample permission letter here. If you take this step, add OTRS pending to the file description page to prevent premature deletion.

If you did not create it entirely yourself, please ask the person who created the file to take one of the two steps listed above, or if the owner of the file has already given their permission to you via email, please forward that email to .

If you believe the media meets the criteria at Non-free content, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at File copyright tags, and add a rationale justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See File copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have created in [ your upload log]. Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. You may wish to read the Wikipedia's image use policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

R. D. Laing and Axel Jensen
Hi Pofero. I wonder could you help out at all in the discussion at Talk:R. D. Laing? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:37, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd like to, although it has been some time since I edited something here. If it's regarding my images above it seems I have too prove either that I have been granted permission from the owner to publish, or that I must provide proof that I myself took the Pushwagner picture. It would be nice if you could tell me exactly how to proceed. Profero (talk) 13:40, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for such a swift reply. No, no, the image is fine (as far as I know)! We were just looking for a reliable source for their friendship, viz: "The Norwegian author Axel Jensen became a close friend and Laing often visited him onboard his ship, Shanti Devi, in Stockholm." (There is a bit more deatil in the no.wiki and sv.wiki articles. I am guessing that this could be supported by the content of Jensen's autobiography. But I do not have a copy and I'm not sure there is an English language edition (as I can't read Norwegian). I was wondering if you had access to a copy at all. Thanks so much for any help you could give. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've been browsing the book «Axel Jensen - Livet sett fra Nimbus» by Petter Mejlænder - conversations with Axel Jensen, published by "Spartacus forlag". http://www.spartacus.no/index.php?ID=Forfatter&ID2=187&ID3=M (Spartacus publishing) as I knew there are many references to R.D. Laing there. However, I did not find a direct reference to any of the many visits to Axel Jensen in Stockholm onboard S/Y Shanti Devi. On the contrary, I found that the story Axel Jensen told Petter Mejlænder (last sentence on page 199) was that he had not seen R.D. Laing since the time at Kingsley Hall. This is probably because Axel was living in some kind of flow of storytelling towards Petter Mejlænder (into his recorder) that made him sort out a few facts. Now, the truth is that Laing did come to visit several times when I was present. And I took pictures of them together onboard. Some of them were taken inside the boat, which, of course, could have been taken anywhere at any time - like the one I donated to Wikimedia with 'The Book of Knots'. But there's one photo with Laing standing behind the steering-wheel and one of him together with his girlfriend walking in front of the boat and both pictures with scenes of Stockholm in the background. Perhaps good evidence in a court-case :) Anyhow, on page 190 in Mejlænder's book Axel Jensen refers to me, Robert Haraldsen, as his good friend. So, may I say I have no reason to relate to other than facts in this case :)  https://www.facebook.com/groups/axeljensen/   --Profero (talk)  22:09, 31 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your research. It seems we are short of any WP:RS for the boat visits, even though they evidently took place. I wonder could you possibly suggest an edit to the R. D. Laing article which can be supported by that Petter Mejlænder book? I don't think the boat visits in themselves are that important, but the friendship between the two men seems to be. Do you know if Laing "treated" Jensen, or at least helped him, after his break-up with Lena? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:25, 31 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, relating to this particular part the edit could perhaps be something like this:
 * "In 1965, Laing and a group of colleagues created the Philadelphia Association and started a psychiatric community project at Kingsley Hall, where patients and therapists lived together. The Norwegian author Axel Jensen contacted Laing at Kingsley Hall after reading his book "The Divided Self" given to him by, Noel Cobb. Axel was treated by Laing and subsequently they became close friends. Laing often visited Axel onboard his ship Shanti Devi, which was his home in Stockholm.
 * However, perhaps it could seem lengthy considering relevance and importance to the article and should be deleted. All I can say is that Axel Jensen tells a lot about his experience with Laing and Kingsley hall in this book. Too bad it is not translated to English. "SY Shanti Devi" was in many ways a 'power spot' where many interesting meetings took place. And, e.g., Pushwagner has depicted the ship in several ways. After arriving in Oslo in 1984 the schooner became headquarters for Oslo International Poetry Festival . When it comes to other possible edits I would have to come back later, but please let me know in what way I could contribute.  --Profero (talk) 12:50, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Profero. Your suggested paragraph looks to me to be perfectly well balanced and proportionate. I will add to the article as a starting point. If further discussion ensues over there I trust you will chip in as you see fit. Many, many thanks for your efforts. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:46, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)