User talk:Protonk/Archive 1

'''IF YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE I GOOFED AN EDIT OR SOMETHING I DID NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED, PLEASE CORRECT IT. I'M HUMAN. I MAKE MISTAKES. PLEASE DON'T JUST REVERT IT BUT ASSUME THAT I WON'T GET UPSET IF YOU TINKER WITH MY EDITS'''

Here it is! Protonk (talk) 04:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Welcome!
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Current open tasks
Here's a nice welcome with rules and policy links. Not that you need them, you seem fairly Wiki-proficient. Good luck and have fun! PS: I like your thoughts on your userpage, well put. +Hexagon1 (t) 02:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Notability of Royalty
Thank you for posting on my user page, I think you will find that I respond better and have much more time and patience to settle "personal" disputes when it is removed from an ongoing situation. As you can imagine, there are huge and numerous issues with the notability of royalty on Wikipedia on either side: first, the people who think most or all are notable have to deal with the AfDs, etc, and defend the articles because they don't want to see them deleted. Then, the people who speak for royalty not always being notable have to combat with a serious lack of justification from the other side with ambiguous conventions and guidelines on either side. The issue has always been the notability of royalty as a group versus royal individuals themselves. Is it not easy to agree that an individual can belong to a very notable group but on their own they are not notable at all? It is quite possible that in sometime that little Eléonore of Belgiumm, for instance (of much more exalted position than the Ladies Windsor, even if newly-born), a scion of the House of Wettin, of the Belgian royal family and so on, will become a notable individual in her own right but none of the attributes she has now make her unique or noteworthy outside of the context of other people. You are right, I am very well acquainted with royalty; I know some royals, I work here and there on articles (about two thousand are on my watchlist at any given time, mostly all of which are royalty) and I make it my business to know as much as I can but also not to overemphasize the frivolities and trivial matters which don't make an encyclopedia. I won't hold that above others though. I won't say "I know everything" or "I know more", but I will simply state at times that people don't know in general. Face value: all royalty appears notable. We're working with content though. The appearance of someone or something in a news article, or even as a news article's subject doesn't make that person automatically notable on their own. Maybe there is enough to fill an article with information that would otherwise be useless on an article of a non-royal individual but that doesn't create encyclopedic content: it creates a genealogical directory, an Almanach de Gotha or a Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, none of which Wikipedia is. The issue is creating precedent that will eventually (and has, before, to articles most would agree are wholly unsuited to Wikipedia). I ask the question, what is the advantage of having articles for these people in educating people that cannot be accomplished in Family and Children sections on the pages of their notable parents? My "anger" comes from the complete and total lack of justification given to the royalty = notable arguments, the lack of acknowledgement to queries on why people choose arbitrary numbers like 10 (or 25 in some arguments) and the fact that some articles like the ones on the Ladies Windsor plainly and clearly only serve as bare-bone biographical data without stating why they even need a biography if they interest is that they are on a list. The attempt to keep things civil is best made if the party assumed to be most aggressive (probably me) offers a location where he or she is sure things can cool down. To me it sounds like a rather smart idea. I know what happens when such things continue *in* the source of the conflict, the multiply and carry on. I've observed it and have been on both sides. If I thought viewpoints were entirely irrelevant, I would have said so, ignored the lot of you and wouldn't be replying to you right now. I find the viewpoints to be misguided and if one person realizes it then it is better than none. Charles 04:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Mathematical economics
Thanks for recent efforts on Mathematical economics, Protonk. If you're able to get back to it any time soon, you might consider way condensing the Heilbroner quote. (I'd guess that a concise rendering would improve on the source.) Also, a page-specific reference within the Boland citation would help. (An aside: I'd be surprised, & delighted, to learn that Popper ever wrote about math econ, as that citation suggests he did.) Again, thx. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 18:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * On trimming, Heil. rambles, so I wouldn't be shy about cutting -- a lot. It is clearly polemical in part, which makes summarizing esp. in order. Since quotation is linked exactly to online source, page  numbering is not a biggie there.


 * If Boland's discussion in on googlebooks, that would have page numbers for the book. I'm not here referring to the pp. for the whole article but where in the article it discusses what is referred to in WP Math econ.   For examples of footnoted online links, there is Quantity theory of money, fn. 19 (variations permitted of course). BW, Thomasmeeks (talk) 19:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thx for your industry. BW, Thomasmeeks (talk) 01:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Re:
Nah, don't worry, doing so was my bad. Sorry! PS: I've restored your text. +Hexagon1 (t) 08:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, good luck to you on yours as well. :) +Hexagon1 (t) 23:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

HI
You just reviewed me at WP:ER. Thank you. I voted delete for Bloody Sunday (1969). Look at the history and it is an unsourced one liner. Me  what do u want?  Your Hancock Please  11:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's O. K. And I used Big delete because Speedy delete would imply that it passes CSD. I said that it just failed the CSD for little or no context. Me   what do u want?  Your Hancock Please  17:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Take it easy
I don't revert for the joy of it. I reverted you due to a very clear error in the introduced changes. Current version is not perfect either, but there's no clear error that mandates anything other than collaborative discussion. Take it easy,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  14:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Replied to you here: User_talk:Jaakobou.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  16:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Response to comments on Requests for adminship/desysop poll
As that page got archived and the discussion closed, I'd just like to respond to your comments to me on that page here quick: First, the parallel drawn between an inactive admin here and an employee who leaves a company is not valid. The company deactivates all the employee's security access because the employee no longer has the authority to use them; it parallels much more strongly with being desyssopped than becoming inactive. As for the hackability of inactive admin accounts: Stealing the password of an active admin is far, far easier than stealing the password of an inactive one. Active admins could sign into and walk away from a computer, have spyware or trojans on their computer, or just be always signed into a computer that's open to access by their mischievous younger siblings. Any brute force attack that could be done on an inactive admin's account could be done on an active admin's account just as easily. Of the 990 active administrators, how many of them do you think are security conscious enough to refrain from keeping the same password for months if not years at a time? For that matter, if you wanted to break into an account, why would you bother with an admin account at all when there are bureaucrat, steward, and checkuser accounts available for the hacking? I simply do not understand the logic that says that the more sysop accounts there are, the easier it is to hack into one. All it takes is one account with a weak password that get's attacked, and removal of the inactive accounts is not going to substantially reduce that risk as there will still be hundreds of accounts with static easily hacked passwords. Seeing every inactive admin account as "a potential vandal with wide ranging powers and no automatic red flags" is being excessively paranoid in my opinion.-- Dycedarg  &#x0436;  22:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * (I usually respond to comments on my talk page on the talk page of the user who made the comment, I'd prefer if you respond to me on my talkpage as well.) To clarify: I stated that we have 990 active accounts. We have ~1,538 sysop accounts total. Incidentally, only approximately 84 of those accounts would have qualified as inactive for the purposes of the failed proposal. The full list including definitions of what constitutes an active/inactive account exists here. Now on to business: Well, to respond to your argument concerning the increased danger due to lack of vigilance on an inactive account: I'd argue that in a wiki system, what could be done with an inactive admin is extremely minimal. First of all, all sysop actions are recorded in the relevant logs. I find it difficult to believe that a vandal would be so subtle as to avoid attracting attention for any length of time. For that matter, merely the fact that an editor who hadn't edited in a year is suddenly performing admin actions without warning would attract attention. Just note what happened when Lord Voldemort showed up on the desyssop poll to comment: He had half a dozen people commenting on his talk page in no time at all. If said person wasn't acting like his usual self any odd-looking sysop actions would throw up a red flag immediately. I will admit that someone who really knew what he was doing could get away with really minor stuff for possibly a long time, but what's the point of that? They wouldn't be able to do anything fun: No deleting the main page, blocking Jimbo, moving USA to poop etc., nor would they be able to do any major damage. People tend to notice suspicious out of process deletions, they'd never get away with blocking someone or abusing page protection, what else is there to do? As for distributed brute force attacks: An approximately 5% decrease in the number of admin accounts is not going to reduce the dangers of that. I don't think they're particularly possible anyway; as I understand it (though I'd be the first to admit that my understanding of mediawiki's security is rather minimal) log-in attempts are throttled by IP, not by the username you attempted to login under; an increase in the number of accounts should not substantially increase your ability to manage this. Really, I don't think there's any practical way to do it at all. And finally: Security, in the end, is the responsibility of the developers just as much as performance is. We can't know for sure what benefits any particular action will have for the security of the site unless they tell us, and there really isn't much purpose to attempting to bolster the site's security on our own without any word from them on the potential effectiveness of our actions. The only comments by developers on this issue I can ever recall reading were to dismiss it as not a major security issue. So I don't think it's something worth worrying about for now.


 * As a final comment: I do agree with you that there might be security benefits. I agree that as the number of admin accounts rises, the possibility for issues to rise also increases. However, I do not agree with the development of policy solely for the purpose of solving vague, hypothetical concerns that have never risen, nor with the wisdom of solving potential future problems that have not been proven to currently exist by creating complex work-intensive policies now.-- Dycedarg  &#x0436;  00:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Bloody Sunday
Don't worry, I totally understand :) I knew the content I had added wasn't very wikified, but I figured if I got an initial base up a more knowledgeable wikipedian could really make it a good article. Thank you for the work on it as well :) --Dustinmacdonald (talk) 00:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't really have any sources which would help this one. No problem helping out with Fauquier though.  David Underdown (talk) 17:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikilinks
Hey, you're making more work for yourself than you need in your wikilinks. You don't need (and shouldn't use) all those underscores. I've taken most of them out from the Patrick Tyler article. You can follow that format for any others you do. :) Aleta  Sing 04:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edits
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Yo
Response on my talkpage. Skomorokh 19:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: GVAC
Protonk, thanks for your concern, but I think at this point I am just to disillusioned with WikiPedia to even care any more. Every one of the points made by people that want our article deleted could be argued, but I don't much see the point. It seems to me after doing some reading of the deletion logs that once a site is nominated for any reason, it's an uphill battle for anyone to keep the article. Take our article for example.

The first claim was it reads like an advertisement. What is an advertisement other than a bunch of information about something. Sounds like the definition of an encyclopedia entry to me. Any set of informative subject matter about anything could be claimed as an advertisement.

Next, and only after the initial claim noted above, we are told that we are not notable because we don't have another source that remarks about our network. How many articles on WP have no sources at all, or have completely useless sources that in the end have nothing to do with the original text, yet they are not put through all this. I think this is a very poor test of weather information is useful to other people, which should be the true judge of notability for WP.

The last thing is so many people say the article needs to be improved to change their mind, but I have yet to see anything but blind criticism.

I'm not going to continue debating the points made, but I think you get my point. From my point of view, and I would bet most other people who have their articles deleted, one person comes up with their "Personal Opinion" of an article and makes the nomination for deletion. Then 15 other people all just agree with that first person, and the writer of the article is left to argue against a crowd.

In the end, our article will be deleted no matter what we say. There is nothing we can do about it, because the rules, and regulations at WP are so vague and left up to interpretation. I don't doubt that you are not related with other networks, but I can't speak for the rest of the people making mindless objections on the deletion discussion. It has happened many times with the IVAO and VATSIM debates, people have been seen bragging about it on their network forums, of course only to be removed by the first staff member that sees them. Why should I think that it is any different here?

In the end, it's just not worth my time to deal with this any more, and more than likely will never be in the future. If I had a subject to write about that I could site through the roof, after this experience I wouldn't bother posting it. Not when there is a chance that one person with a personal ax to grind starting a deletion discussion, to be followed by a slew of other people mindlessly agreeing with the first, causes me to have to spend any amount of effort defending the article. In the end this also only leads one to have a whole lot less respect for the information that is left here knowing that the process that judges it is so flawed.

Ryan Waldron (talk)

Articles_for_deletion/Wealthiest_families_in_history
Thanks for your sensible input here. I am neither an economist nor a historian, but I do know dodgy methodology when I see it. Problem is that the topic is probably worthy of a PhD thesis, but not within Wikipedia parameters. I feel, in this case, for the author of the article, who hasn't defended it, and wouldn't want to discourage him (or her). I spend most of my time reverting and blocking completely unworthy vandals, so when I come across an editor who clearly has spent a great deal of time and effort on a pet project, it's difficult to stomach the fact that he may be disheartened and cease editing here altogether. However, I don't see any way his article can be rescued. Shame, in a way. -- Rodhull andemu  00:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Occupied territories
It doesn't, but it isn't a country. works for a community. And If I'm going to make generalizations about communities, I would prefer to pick the smallest community possible before assuming homogeneity (I'm not saying that you are doing that). Protonk (talk) 00:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't be misled - the correct term is "occupied territories". There has been a massive tendatious discussion on this, see here, but as far as I'm aware there's no real question that it's correct. PRtalk 07:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:OWN Logo.svg)
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Userpage
Just looking to settle things a bit. I'm sure something along those lines will show up there sometime again in the future. :) John has brought up the possibility of making his idea into a category and I've mentioned it on the AfD page.  Check it out, post your thoughts.  Rejectwater (talk) 23:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

In popular culture
It really is not that big of a deal if editors continue to work to improve these kinds of articles when they are willing to do so. At worst, we should merge and redirect without prejudice of undoing the redirect when additional sources are found. There's no pressing need to outright delete them that then forces editors to start all over if they do come across additional sources. When there are merge and redirect locations, "strong deletes" are excessive. Also, keep in mind that I have argued and even nominated to delete dozens of unverifiable, pedophilic, unfixable, nonsense, disturbing, original research, hoaxes, how tos, etc. I really only argue to keep articles that I actively also try to improve and that I can tell a good deal of other respectable editors see value in. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 08:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 07:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Cheshire Cat AfD
I do not think either of us is getting anywhere with the other and propose a agree to disagree truce, i.e. avoiding commenting further to each other so that the discussion on the article is not derailed. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 17:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion
If you really want to achieve something constructive, I propose the following: There is no reason for us to outright argue rather than discuss or to just agree to disagree and move on. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 21:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We both strike and withdraw our comments on the Wikiquette page.
 * We disengage from the Cheshire Cat AfD and allow others to continue to the discussion there.
 * Find an article that you would like help with, and I'll gladly help you improve it.
 * that is a perfectly admirable suggestion. I'm prepared to disengage from the cheshire cat afd.  I'm also prepared to agree to disagree.  but the WQA is not about our disagreements.  It is about behavior.  I would have been inclined to withdraw the WQA had this message been posted before you created an exact, word for word copy of my message and inserted your diffs and accusations.  That, to me, is a much more potent sign that you are inclined to continue in the same direction than these entreaties on my talk page.  So.  I'm sorry but I can't strike my comment on the WQA. Protonk (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason I posted the comment about your behavior there in a similar fashion as to your post is because if you really sit back and look at the examples I provided, you'll see that in the Cheshire cat AfD and others that I linked you also went back and forth with not just me, but also other editors and thus the same criteria you claimed against me could be claimed against yourself. If you look at the nominators' approach to the Cheshire cat AfD, with even more posts than I made and even more accusatory of others in the discussion, you have to see that even you and I are not the only ones to spiritedly engage others in AfDs.  If we both are willing to realize that and indeed withdraw our comments from there, then I will honestly reconsider how I approach AfDs and will invite others whom I consider neutral to offer me greater guidance and suggestions, which I believe is after all what your seeking.  Keeping our comments there will not help.  Sincerely, --  Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 21:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * WQA is not for any conduct - it's for incivility and communications. Both have been dismissed and deleted as meritless and not using WQA in good faith. I can see that you're concerned the Le Grand's conduct might continue Protonk, but if it does, it's RFC on user conduct - not WQA. You both need to step back, especially you Le Grand - if either of you continue, I don't think it will end well. If there's genuine concerns by either of you (about either of you) or this matter, let me know. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's OK - but a good page to check is WP:DR. The good thing about RFC on user conduct is it examines the conduct of both parties rather than being a mess like it was here. Anyway, best wishes - Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Precedents
You know, we obviously got along fine at Articles for deletion/List of Soviet and Russian leaders by height, Articles for deletion/Characters in Call of Duty, Articles for deletion/List of Iraq War resisters (2nd nomination), Articles for deletion/List of Earthworm Jim items, Articles for deletion/List of Earthworm Jim items, Articles for deletion/Black Sun (Star Wars), Articles for deletion/Hatzfeldt Syndrome, etc. and thus I am confident that there is no reason why we should not be able to get along in the future. A couple of AfDs needn't take away from the above examples. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 21:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Title and 3RR
The longer you keep the thread up, the harder you are making it for us to get anywhere. I have agreed not to responded to people with similarly worded comments and we both have agreed to disengage from the disputed AfDs. The thread is therefore no longer necessary and keeping it there will not help. Trying to escalate things further will also not help. I strongly and politely request that you let this drop and not venue shop. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 22:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you've been in close proximity with eachother, and that might be effecting how the discussions are going. I think Le Grand has accepted the points of concern that were raised and as such, does the WQA serve a useful purpose anymore? If not, it would make sense to archive it and work towards burying the hatchet. Otherwise, perhaps refactor it to points you feel weren't covered or shorten it in a way that would enable a good neutral opinion from uninvolved editors? Seraphim&hearts;  Whipp  23:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In particular, the 3RRr seems a way or prolonging the dispute rather than accomplishing anything. Especially if he didnt actually violate 3RR. DGG (talk) 01:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Tag surgery
LMAO! Great edit summary there. Also appreciated as I had been trying unsuccessfully to fix that. TravellingCarithe Busy Bee 03:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * and I had also failed. Time to actually learn the template syntax.DGG (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

RFCs
Please don't create frivolous RFCs. Thus just raise the temperature and don't achieve anything. An RFC may be appropriate but you need to try and resolve any issues with the user first. Spartaz Humbug! 06:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:STOP_MINDLESSLY_GAINSAYING_ANY_DELETE_RATIONALE_OFFERED_IN_AFD
Awesome. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I would appreciate some input
I am trying to generate some discussion about some inclusion guidelines/criteria for IPC sections and articles. Eventually I would like to try and make WP:IPC a guideline, but I would need some assistance. You seem to have a fairly reasoned approach in discussion, and I would like to hear your thoughts. -- Nick Penguin ( contribs ) 01:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Al Roth
Nice job whipping up an Al Roth article so quickly!Cretog8 (talk) 23:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

this is a test
just a test. 24.160.241.200 (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * OH Noes. Protonk (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

In view of your good work...
In view of your vigourous and positive defence of the Richard A. Houghten article and your on-going editing to improve the article, please accept this as a token of my appreciation:

Is it just me....
...or is it really weird that so many IP editors have swarmed to User talk:Allemandtando‎, and that many of them have edits only on that page? --EEMIV (talk) 06:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's so weird. When you get fans of something like WH40k pissed off, what do they do? They post links on their boards and gather more support.--Project Kurtz (talk) 06:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, yeah -- I hadn't even thought about the BBS phenomenon. Duh. --EEMIV (talk) 06:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I see it on AfD all the time. Protonk (talk) 06:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow - I goto bed and look what happens! --Allemandtando (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

June 2008
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Weapons of the Imperium (Warhammer 40,000), did not appear to be constructive and has been automatically reverted by ClueBot. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you believe there has been a mistake and would like to report a false positive, please report it here and then remove this warning from your talk page. If your edit was not vandalism, please feel free to make your edit again after reporting it. The following is the log entry regarding this warning: Weapons of the Imperium (Warhammer 40,000) was changed by Protonk (u) (t) deleting 75209 characters on 2008-06-30T07:20:00+00:00. Thank you. ClueBot (talk) 07:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Question
What does "IIRC" mean/stand for? Also, regarding George Carlin, my favorite thing he wrote in one of his books that I recently read is “Thou shalt always be honest and faithful” as his version of the "ten" commandments. Sincerely, -- Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 03:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)