User talk:ProudPomeranian

Hi!
If you are interested in Poland, we have a Polish noticeboard --Molobo 01:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link. It's useful. ProudPomeranian 06:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Grass's nationality

 * I generally agree that nationality and/or ethnicity sometimes is too narrowly defined, as in either-this-or-that. I've expressed that thought in the Copernicus discussion and elsewhere.


 * In the case of Günter Grass, however, I'm not aware that he ever spoke Kashubian or made any particular claims himself about being Kashubian – although some Kashube characters appear in the Danzig Trilogy. In the over-all context of world literature, Grass is a German writer and is everywhere identified as such.


 * I freely admit I don't know much about the Kashubians, other than having read that they are a west-Slav group distinct from the Poles proper, perhaps somewhat like the Sorbs of Saxony. I gather their expressions of nationality in the past have been somewhat flexible, depending on poltical winds, like the Upper Silesians. Certainly the area known to the Germans as West Prussia was a fascinating and probably volatile mixture of ethnicities.

Sca 16:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well in his new novel, Beim Häuten der Zwiebel, Günter Grass openly admits that the family of Oskar Matzerath from The tin drum is actually his own family. That means his own uncle Franz was shot in 1939 for taking part in the defence of the Polish Post Office building in Danzig. The widow was resettled back to her native Kashubian hamlet (Rębiechowo) which is now the airport of Gdańsk. The runway actually runs over the former field of the aunt of Grass. The family still lives near by, according to the book. He visited them on his first post-war trip to Poland in 1958. I strongly encourage you to read the novel. ProudPomeranian 16:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * My understanding was that Beim Häuten der Zwiebel was his autobiography, not a novel.
 * Of course I want to read it, but I haven't decided whether to buy the original or wait for the English translation. I do find some of Grass's complex German heavy-going, particularly when he gets into idiom and dialect. (Some English speakers would say he's heavy-going even in English!)
 * I still believe Grass is appropriately described as 'a German writer.' As far as I have seen, he wrote all his books in German. Sca 20:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Right. It is an autobiography but written in a very novel-like style. Grass style if you see what I mean.
 * The original of any book is better if you are able to read it with ease.
 * Of course Grass is a German writer. He writes in German. But saying he's German and Kashubian does not substract anything from his Germaness. Rather it makes it richer and more interesting. Actually, this was my original point. I should have stated that being a hyphenated writer does not make you a partial German minus but a German plus. Of course it is true for any nationality. ProudPomeranian 21:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

your purposeful derailment of talk:Erika Steinbach
I would like it if you would not accuse me of sockpuppetry with no evidence. Your purpose was obviously to defame my character in the talk page and throw more confusion into the talk on the page. please, you have made a mockery of yourself and the Erika Steinbach talk. Your only evidence for me being a sockpuppeteer is that the other user is in the same timezone as me, by your reasoning, you should warn every user from EST zone that they are probably my sockpuppet. I have rarely, if ever, edited articles on Prussian borders, I edit articles on twentieth century German borders. and BTW, do you really think I would be so daft if I was his sockpuppeteer to include such obvious similarities? and night time is not the only reason people aren't active, some of us have jobs.

--Jadger 04:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not accuse you. I simply do not have enough evidence for this at this time. I just listed some coincidences which bothered me (like that all the defenders of the Prussian tradition have similar hours of operations, and it's not the timezone of Germany). I assume good faith but try to be wary at the same time. Please take note that I was careful not to throw any accusations. I will take your word and let go this controversy, at least until something new happens. However, you did not state in a direct fashion that you are not a socket puppeteer. Are you ready to do so? If so, I'm satisfied. Have a good day. ProudPomeranian 07:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Writing about Toruń-Bydgoszcz relations – quite a risky subject
If you are from Pomerania, perhaps even from Toruń, than you surely know how controversial and disputable are relations between Toruń and Bydgoszcz. Writing anything on this subject, as it's been recently done in an English article about Toruń, is like walking on a mine field – at least if what we say is meant to be objective. Taking this into consideration I really don't think that the following passage in the History section can be considered as objective: The city increase could be even bigger if the seat of the local voivodship administration unit hasn't been moved to Bydgoszcz in 1945.

Well, maybe it could have been, maybe it have not – but who really knows? The fact is that you expressed an opinion which is quite common in Toruń, but it's ex definitione subjective and emotional in many cases. So it is not a matter of facts – it is a matter of personal views. If we express such a point of view knowing about its being disputable, maybe we should mention about this? Shouldn't it also be noted in some way whose exactly opinion it is? Thus, I think that the passage once proposed by myself was much nearer to meet standards of objectivity:

''There is a quite common opinion among the locals, though, that Toruń's postwar development could have been even more robust if the seat of regional administration hadn't been moved to Bydgoszcz in 1945. While such views are often somewhat emotional due to complicated relations between these two cities, there is indeed a number of facts which can be put forward as a proof that Toruń was actually pushed away from the main stream of centraly or regionaly managed investment of the time.''

Possibly should the last sentence be expanded to give some examples corroborating that Toruń indeed was in some way “harmed” after the World War II?

I was a little afraid to expand the History section with passages devoted to the postwar era, because I've been aware of impossibility to write about this period without mentioning about Toruń-Bydgoszcz relations. Unfortunatelly, most locals, both in Toruń and Bydgoszcz, seem to exhibit a sort of inherent inability to discuss this subject on an objective base. It is also my problem, which I'm trying hard to fight back, because I've spent whole my life in Toruń, being born here. The problem is that, as far as I know, Wikipedia is meant to be objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.8.196.153 (talk • contribs)


 * I believe your version was much further from objectivity than mine. However, I do agree that also my version is unnecessary. I would suggest removing the "feeling" fragment completely. Feel free to remove it, if you want. Just do not restore your version - it is not encyclopedic. Not at all.
 * I'm neither from Toruń nor Bydgoszcz as none of these cities belong to Pomerania ;-) I was born in the land called here in the English Wikipedia Pomerelia and in modern Poland (but still in English) Eastern Pomerania.
 * Please add your comments at the bottom of the Talk pages. By the way, why din't you respond on Talk:Toruń where I asked you for the reasons for reverting me? Obviously, I have it on my Watch list. ProudPomeranian 17:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Günter Grass
Hi / Cześć! We had an exchange last summer about Günter Grass. Now I'm finally reading his memoirs (Beim häuten der Zwiebel) in the English translation, which has just come out in the U.S. (Peeling the Onion). I just wanted to let you know that indeed your are correct about Grass's Kashubian forebears. What's not apparent (so far as I've read, halfway) is that he ever spoke Kashubian or Polish beyond a few phrases, or ever thought of himself as anything but German, and a German writer. That's not to say he is unsympathetic to Polish/Kashubian life; quite the contrary.

As a long-time fan of Grass's Danzig Trilogy, I'm finding this memoir fascinating, not to mention revealing in terms of this military and P.O.W. experiences. Have you read it? Has it been translated into Polish?

BTW, since you're Pomeranian, have you read Christian von Krockow, a German writer from a Pomeranian noble family who grew up near Stolp, now Słupsk? If you read German, you might be interested in his Die Reise nach Pommern. Here's an interesting excerpt, first in the original, then my translation:


 * Was also 1945 über den deutschen Osten hereinbrach – und dann, wie immer, in erster Linie die Unschuldigen traf and kaum die Schuldigen, die sich durch feige Flucht oder durch den Selbstmord ihrer Verantwortung entzogen – was über die Menschen in Ostpreußen, Schlesien, Pommern hereinbrach und sie die Heimat kostete, das kam von weiter her. Das war die Konsequenz des eigenen, des deutschen Wahns.


 * Im übrigen muß man daran erinnern, daß Polens neuer Westen zum großen Teil von Menschen besiedelt worden ist, die selber vertrieben waren, nämlich aus den östlichen Gebieten, die Stalin den Polen abforderte. Sieht man die Landkarte an, so stellt man fest, daß Warschau heute beinahe so weit an den östlichen Rand Polens verschoben ist – wie Berlin and den Rand Deutschlands.


 * That which stormed over the German East in 1945 – and then, as always, descended on the innocent while leaving largely untouched the guilty, who by running away or by committing suicide avoided responsibility – what broke forth over the people of East Prussia, Silesia and Pomerania and cost them their homeland, was set in motion long before: It was the result of our own German madness.


 * Furthermore, one must remember that Poland’s new western region has been for the most part settled by people who themselves were expelled, that is, from the eastern territories that Stalin took (literal translation: "demanded") from Poland. When one looks at the map, one realizes that today Warsaw has been pushed almost as far toward the eastern edge of Poland as Berlin has been pushed to the edge of Germany.


 * — Christian Graf von Krockow: Die Reise nach Pommern: Bericht aus einem verschwiegenen Land.
 * Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, Munich, 1985. ISBN 3-421-06251-x. Page 215.


 * Sca 13:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)