User talk:Punjabier

Welcome
How i can edit semi protected page

Semi protected page editing
How i can edit semi protected pages at Wikipedia Punjabier (talk) 08:59, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

September 2019
Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), such as at WP:Teahouse, please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either: This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.
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Thank you. David Biddulph (talk) 12:13, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Mali caste, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. David Biddulph (talk) 12:56, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Citing sources
Hello Punjabier, please have a look at the tutorial on citing sources, it's very easy or even automatic to add citations if you're citing a webpage or a journal, you just need the URL or the DOI. Some of your recent additions looked like original research, but we just have to reflect what reliable sources have said about a subject, "This is testified by the fact that census of 1881 does not acknowledge of the existence of Saini community" is for example original research unless other reliable sources have made the same point. Thank you :) – Thjarkur (talk) 22:43, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, as you did with this edit to Saini, you may be blocked from editing. Serols (talk) 10:35, 22 September 2019 (UTC) See reliable source click on this link http://www.sainionline.com/neo-saini-groups/post-1930-appropriation-of-saini-identity-by-mali-caste


 * That is not a reliable source. No caste-affiliated website is. Please read WP:RS and the specific notes at User:Sitush/CasteSources. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 14:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I know sitush you are mali gardner thats why onlu you disgrace saini community See the difference you give me reliable source mali Mali caste, in southern districts of Haryana and beyond in the states of UP, MP, and Rajasthan, also started using the surname "Saini" in 20th century since 1930-40.

However, this is not the same community as Tomar-Yaduvanshi descent Sainis of Punjab who according to renowned and peer-reviewed ethno-historians like SS Gahlot et al have maintained their Rajput character .This is testified by the fact that census of 1881 does not acknowledge of the existence of Saini community outside Punjab and, despite the insinuations of colonial writers like Ibbetson, records Sainis and Malis as separate communities. Denzil Ibbetson Even colonial census authorities, somewhat eager to club Sainis with Malis for the sake of getting easier handle on complex Saini history and ethnography, were forced to acknowledge this stark fact with the remark: "...that some of the higher tribes of the same class (Sainis) will not marry with them (Malis). It is to be noted that Denzil Ibbetson was not an anthropologist, ethnographer or historian in the way these terms are understood in the contemporary academics. He was a census commissioner with no formal training in social anthropology or history, and a considerable portion of his work is derived from unidentifiable informant sources and hearsay. In great many cases his work is also conditioned with the ignorance and prejudice of both English and native colonial officials whose reports he compliled and relied on to produce his work titled "Punjab Castes" . For these reasons the citability of Ibbetson's work for strictly ethno-historic purposes is questionable but in the absence of any other work of acceptable academic standard written by a trained socio-anthropologist which encompasses the breadth of Ibbetson's work, his work continues to be in circulation despite a large number of factual and interpretive inaccuracies contained in it. Jogendra Nath Bhattachary Another work of 19th century by Jogendra Nath Bhattachary also treated Saini group to be completely distinct from Malis. In his work titlled "Hindu castes and sects", published in 1896, he refers to Sainis on pp 285 as a distinct agricultural group with a population of about 125000 and restricted to Punjab. He mentions Malis in a separate category and makes no attempt to link both communities. Bhattachary's work, unlike Ibbetson's, is considered academic grade and is regarded as first ever serious attempt at anthropology in colonial India. Edward Balfour In 1885 Edward Balfour, another colonial scholar, clearly identified Sainis as distinct from Malis. What is more interesting is that Edward Balfour found Sainis to be largely involved with sugar-cane farming instead of vegetable farming while only Malis to be involved with gardening. Edward Balfour's account thus gives further confirmation, in addition to self-contradiction implied in Ibbetson's account, that Sainis were understood to be entirely different from Malis in the colonial times as can be seen from the following excerpt from his work:

"The most industrious are the Rain, Mali, Saini, Lubana, and Jat. The Rain are diligent, persevering men, and on good land will often obtain three or four successive crops of vegetables, which they produce largely in addition to the grain crops.

The Malis are chiefly gardners.

The Saini occupy sub-mountain tracts and grow sugarcane largely. Their village lands are always in a high state of tillage."

-The encyclopædia of India and of eastern and southern Asia, Volume 3, pp 118, By Edward Balfour, 1885

As can be seen there is no confusion about the difference between both the communities in this scholarly work of late 19th century.

Balfour also enlists Syed, Pathan, Banjara, Brahman, Gujar, Rangar, and the Rajput as tribes engaged in agriculture. Mahton Rajputs, also sometimes called Sikh Rajputs, another agricultural tribe in rural Hoshiarpur was confused by English scholars to be identical with Banjaras at the time of writing of Balfour's work in 1880s.

The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD

The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD was instituted by the colonial government of Punjab to safeguard the lands of agricultrual tribes of Punjab from being appropriated by Khatri and Baniya moneylenders (Master Hari Singh, 1984). The Act provided several protections to the members of the notified agricultural tribes against exploitation by urban mercantile castes. It also enumerated a district wise list of notified agricultural tribes which were to be extended special privileges. Some of the notified agricultural tribes included Jats, Arains, Janjuas, Bhattis, Awans, Sainis, Kharrals, etc. The Act once again made clear distinction between Saini and Mali and enumerates them as separate tribes (See The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD, XIII of 1907, pp 22-29, Sir Shadi Lal).

In a nutshell Saini presence, according to this authoritative goverment document, was only recorded in the following districts of colonial Punjab: Hoshiarpur Gurdaspur Jalandhar Ludhiana Lyallpur Sialkot Ambala (included present day Ropar) Delhi Ferozepur

It is noteworthy that Malis were also notified as an agricultural tribe by this statute but no where does the language of the Act ever confuse both the communities. Mali presence was recorded in the following districts where no Saini presence was recorded:

Hissar Rohtak Gurgaon Karnal

In the following districts both communities are recorded but were once again enlisted as separate entities: E.A.H Blunt E.A.H. Blunt who produced a seminal work on caste system of Northern India also placed Sainis as a group completely distinct from Malis, Baghbans, Kacchis and Muraos. He enlisted Sainis a landholding group while describing the latter groups as having mainly gardening, flower and vegetable cultivation as their major occupations. The strength of Blunt's work lies in the fact that he had the advantage of looking at the work of all the prior colonial writers like Ibbetson, Risley, Hunter, etc and revising their inconsistencies. Post-colonial scholars In Punjab there is no confusion whatsoever about the difference between Mali and Saini community and Sainis are nowhere confused with the Mali community. But in Haryana, a lot of Mali tribes have now adopted 'Saini' last name which has made the Saini identity somewhat confused in the state and southwards of it. Marking out the clear difference between Malis and Sainis of Haryana, an Anthroplogical Survey of India report published in 1994 states the following: (A Neo Saini Publication) An example of post 1930 Neo Saini or Mali literature. Out of myriads of the words and labels availaible to claim a Rajput or martial identity, the word "Sainik" was choosen discreetly by the Mali community leaders to get the community registered as "Saini", supposedly as short form of "Sainik". Having thus remodeled their identity as "Saini", through manipulation of name and taking advantage of the confusion in poorly documented government records, they hoped for Mali community to gain entry into British Indian Army, which exclusively recruited from "martial classes" from which, owing to racist prejudices of colonial era, this group was excluded. The original Sainis, i.e., the Sainis of Punjab were enlisted as "martial class" since the earliest era of British recruitment history of India. Several companies of Sainis recruited from Punjab had fought in World War 1 and Sainis had won many gallantry awards such as OBI, IOM, Cross of St. George, etc equivalents of modern PVCs and MVCs. Later a proposal to raise a full division of Sainis called "Saini Infantry" was also on the anvilPunjabier (talk) 01:46, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Already give you reference sir somone try to edit the article
Sir i already give you reference Someone try to edit the article now i will not edit any artical sir Punjabier (talk) 10:38, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Refactoring another editor's comment
In to the old thread at Talk:Saini you refactored another editor's comment to make it look as if your added wording had been part of the original editor's comment. You are not permitted to do that. If you want to reply you must add your own comment after the original message and include your own signature. I have edited the page accordingly. --David Biddulph (talk) 13:57, 22 September 2019 (UTC) Mali caste, in southern districts of Haryana and beyond in the states of UP, MP, and Rajasthan, also started using the surname "Saini" in 20th century since 1930-40.

However, this is not the same community as Tomar-Yaduvanshi descent Sainis of Punjab who according to renowned and peer-reviewed ethno-historians like SS Gahlot et al have maintained their Rajput character .This is testified by the fact that census of 1881 does not acknowledge of the existence of Saini community outside Punjab and, despite the insinuations of colonial writers like Ibbetson, records Sainis and Malis as separate communities. Denzil Ibbetson Even colonial census authorities, somewhat eager to club Sainis with Malis for the sake of getting easier handle on complex Saini history and ethnography, were forced to acknowledge this stark fact with the remark: "...that some of the higher tribes of the same class (Sainis) will not marry with them (Malis). It is to be noted that Denzil Ibbetson was not an anthropologist, ethnographer or historian in the way these terms are understood in the contemporary academics. He was a census commissioner with no formal training in social anthropology or history, and a considerable portion of his work is derived from unidentifiable informant sources and hearsay. In great many cases his work is also conditioned with the ignorance and prejudice of both English and native colonial officials whose reports he compliled and relied on to produce his work titled "Punjab Castes" . For these reasons the citability of Ibbetson's work for strictly ethno-historic purposes is questionable but in the absence of any other work of acceptable academic standard written by a trained socio-anthropologist which encompasses the breadth of Ibbetson's work, his work continues to be in circulation despite a large number of factual and interpretive inaccuracies contained in it. Jogendra Nath Bhattachary Another work of 19th century by Jogendra Nath Bhattachary also treated Saini group to be completely distinct from Malis. In his work titlled "Hindu castes and sects", published in 1896, he refers to Sainis on pp 285 as a distinct agricultural group with a population of about 125000 and restricted to Punjab. He mentions Malis in a separate category and makes no attempt to link both communities. Bhattachary's work, unlike Ibbetson's, is considered academic grade and is regarded as first ever serious attempt at anthropology in colonial India. Edward Balfour In 1885 Edward Balfour, another colonial scholar, clearly identified Sainis as distinct from Malis. What is more interesting is that Edward Balfour found Sainis to be largely involved with sugar-cane farming instead of vegetable farming while only Malis to be involved with gardening. Edward Balfour's account thus gives further confirmation, in addition to self-contradiction implied in Ibbetson's account, that Sainis were understood to be entirely different from Malis in the colonial times as can be seen from the following excerpt from his work:

"The most industrious are the Rain, Mali, Saini, Lubana, and Jat. The Rain are diligent, persevering men, and on good land will often obtain three or four successive crops of vegetables, which they produce largely in addition to the grain crops.

The Malis are chiefly gardners.

The Saini occupy sub-mountain tracts and grow sugarcane largely. Their village lands are always in a high state of tillage."

-The encyclopædia of India and of eastern and southern Asia, Volume 3, pp 118, By Edward Balfour, 1885

As can be seen there is no confusion about the difference between both the communities in this scholarly work of late 19th century.

Balfour also enlists Syed, Pathan, Banjara, Brahman, Gujar, Rangar, and the Rajput as tribes engaged in agriculture. Mahton Rajputs, also sometimes called Sikh Rajputs, another agricultural tribe in rural Hoshiarpur was confused by English scholars to be identical with Banjaras at the time of writing of Balfour's work in 1880s.

The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD

The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD was instituted by the colonial government of Punjab to safeguard the lands of agricultrual tribes of Punjab from being appropriated by Khatri and Baniya moneylenders (Master Hari Singh, 1984). The Act provided several protections to the members of the notified agricultural tribes against exploitation by urban mercantile castes. It also enumerated a district wise list of notified agricultural tribes which were to be extended special privileges. Some of the notified agricultural tribes included Jats, Arains, Janjuas, Bhattis, Awans, Sainis, Kharrals, etc. The Act once again made clear distinction between Saini and Mali and enumerates them as separate tribes (See The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD, XIII of 1907, pp 22-29, Sir Shadi Lal).

In a nutshell Saini presence, according to this authoritative goverment document, was only recorded in the following districts of colonial Punjab: Hoshiarpur Gurdaspur Jalandhar Ludhiana Lyallpur Sialkot Ambala (included present day Ropar) Delhi Ferozepur

It is noteworthy that Malis were also notified as an agricultural tribe by this statute but no where does the language of the Act ever confuse both the communities. Mali presence was recorded in the following districts where no Saini presence was recorded:

Hissar Rohtak Gurgaon Karnal

In the following districts both communities are recorded but were once again enlisted as separate entities: E.A.H Blunt E.A.H. Blunt who produced a seminal work on caste system of Northern India also placed Sainis as a group completely distinct from Malis, Baghbans, Kacchis and Muraos. He enlisted Sainis a landholding group while describing the latter groups as having mainly gardening, flower and vegetable cultivation as their major occupations. The strength of Blunt's work lies in the fact that he had the advantage of looking at the work of all the prior colonial writers like Ibbetson, Risley, Hunter, etc and revising their inconsistencies. Post-colonial scholars In Punjab there is no confusion whatsoever about the difference between Mali and Saini community and Sainis are nowhere confused with the Mali community. But in Haryana, a lot of Mali tribes have now adopted 'Saini' last name which has made the Saini identity somewhat confused in the state and southwards of it. Marking out the clear difference between Malis and Sainis of Haryana, an Anthroplogical Survey of India report published in 1994 states the following: (A Neo Saini Publication) An example of post 1930 Neo Saini or Mali literature. Out of myriads of the words and labels availaible to claim a Rajput or martial identity, the word "Sainik" was choosen discreetly by the Mali community leaders to get the community registered as "Saini", supposedly as short form of "Sainik". Having thus remodeled their identity as "Saini", through manipulation of name and taking advantage of the confusion in poorly documented government records, they hoped for Mali community to gain entry into British Indian Army, which exclusively recruited from "martial classes" from which, owing to racist prejudices of colonial era, this group was excluded. The original Sainis, i.e., the Sainis of Punjab were enlisted as "martial class" since the earliest era of British recruitment history of India. Several companies of Sainis recruited from Punjab had fought in World War 1 and Sainis had won many gallantry awards such as OBI, IOM, Cross of St. George, etc equivalents of modern PVCs and MVCs. Later a proposal to raise a full division of Sainis called "Saini Infantry" was also on the anvil Punjabier (talk) 01:41, 23 September 2019 (UTC) David sir read difference and please delete mali word with saini

September 2019
Your recent editing history at Saini ‎ shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you don't violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. David Biddulph (talk) 15:55, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

See difference between mali and saini caste David Biddulph sir Sitush is mali thats why they spread wrong information disgrace our saini community Mali caste, in southern districts of Haryana and beyond in the states of UP, MP, and Rajasthan, also started using the surname "Saini" in 20th century since 1930-40.

However, this is not the same community as Tomar-Yaduvanshi descent Sainis of Punjab who according to renowned and peer-reviewed ethno-historians like SS Gahlot et al have maintained their Rajput character .This is testified by the fact that census of 1881 does not acknowledge of the existence of Saini community outside Punjab and, despite the insinuations of colonial writers like Ibbetson, records Sainis and Malis as separate communities. Denzil Ibbetson Even colonial census authorities, somewhat eager to club Sainis with Malis for the sake of getting easier handle on complex Saini history and ethnography, were forced to acknowledge this stark fact with the remark: "...that some of the higher tribes of the same class (Sainis) will not marry with them (Malis). It is to be noted that Denzil Ibbetson was not an anthropologist, ethnographer or historian in the way these terms are understood in the contemporary academics. He was a census commissioner with no formal training in social anthropology or history, and a considerable portion of his work is derived from unidentifiable informant sources and hearsay. In great many cases his work is also conditioned with the ignorance and prejudice of both English and native colonial officials whose reports he compliled and relied on to produce his work titled "Punjab Castes" . For these reasons the citability of Ibbetson's work for strictly ethno-historic purposes is questionable but in the absence of any other work of acceptable academic standard written by a trained socio-anthropologist which encompasses the breadth of Ibbetson's work, his work continues to be in circulation despite a large number of factual and interpretive inaccuracies contained in it. Jogendra Nath Bhattachary Another work of 19th century by Jogendra Nath Bhattachary also treated Saini group to be completely distinct from Malis. In his work titlled "Hindu castes and sects", published in 1896, he refers to Sainis on pp 285 as a distinct agricultural group with a population of about 125000 and restricted to Punjab. He mentions Malis in a separate category and makes no attempt to link both communities. Bhattachary's work, unlike Ibbetson's, is considered academic grade and is regarded as first ever serious attempt at anthropology in colonial India. Edward Balfour In 1885 Edward Balfour, another colonial scholar, clearly identified Sainis as distinct from Malis. What is more interesting is that Edward Balfour found Sainis to be largely involved with sugar-cane farming instead of vegetable farming while only Malis to be involved with gardening. Edward Balfour's account thus gives further confirmation, in addition to self-contradiction implied in Ibbetson's account, that Sainis were understood to be entirely different from Malis in the colonial times as can be seen from the following excerpt from his work:

"The most industrious are the Rain, Mali, Saini, Lubana, and Jat. The Rain are diligent, persevering men, and on good land will often obtain three or four successive crops of vegetables, which they produce largely in addition to the grain crops.

The Malis are chiefly gardners.

The Saini occupy sub-mountain tracts and grow sugarcane largely. Their village lands are always in a high state of tillage."

-The encyclopædia of India and of eastern and southern Asia, Volume 3, pp 118, By Edward Balfour, 1885

As can be seen there is no confusion about the difference between both the communities in this scholarly work of late 19th century.

Balfour also enlists Syed, Pathan, Banjara, Brahman, Gujar, Rangar, and the Rajput as tribes engaged in agriculture. Mahton Rajputs, also sometimes called Sikh Rajputs, another agricultural tribe in rural Hoshiarpur was confused by English scholars to be identical with Banjaras at the time of writing of Balfour's work in 1880s.

The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD

The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD was instituted by the colonial government of Punjab to safeguard the lands of agricultrual tribes of Punjab from being appropriated by Khatri and Baniya moneylenders (Master Hari Singh, 1984). The Act provided several protections to the members of the notified agricultural tribes against exploitation by urban mercantile castes. It also enumerated a district wise list of notified agricultural tribes which were to be extended special privileges. Some of the notified agricultural tribes included Jats, Arains, Janjuas, Bhattis, Awans, Sainis, Kharrals, etc. The Act once again made clear distinction between Saini and Mali and enumerates them as separate tribes (See The Punjab Alienation of Land Act of 1900 AD, XIII of 1907, pp 22-29, Sir Shadi Lal).

In a nutshell Saini presence, according to this authoritative goverment document, was only recorded in the following districts of colonial Punjab: Hoshiarpur Gurdaspur Jalandhar Ludhiana Lyallpur Sialkot Ambala (included present day Ropar) Delhi Ferozepur

It is noteworthy that Malis were also notified as an agricultural tribe by this statute but no where does the language of the Act ever confuse both the communities. Mali presence was recorded in the following districts where no Saini presence was recorded:

Hissar Rohtak Gurgaon Karnal

In the following districts both communities are recorded but were once again enlisted as separate entities: E.A.H Blunt E.A.H. Blunt who produced a seminal work on caste system of Northern India also placed Sainis as a group completely distinct from Malis, Baghbans, Kacchis and Muraos. He enlisted Sainis a landholding group while describing the latter groups as having mainly gardening, flower and vegetable cultivation as their major occupations. The strength of Blunt's work lies in the fact that he had the advantage of looking at the work of all the prior colonial writers like Ibbetson, Risley, Hunter, etc and revising their inconsistencies. Post-colonial scholars In Punjab there is no confusion whatsoever about the difference between Mali and Saini community and Sainis are nowhere confused with the Mali community. But in Haryana, a lot of Mali tribes have now adopted 'Saini' last name which has made the Saini identity somewhat confused in the state and southwards of it. Marking out the clear difference between Malis and Sainis of Haryana, an Anthroplogical Survey of India report published in 1994 states the following: (A Neo Saini Publication) An example of post 1930 Neo Saini or Mali literature. Out of myriads of the words and labels availaible to claim a Rajput or martial identity, the word "Sainik" was choosen discreetly by the Mali community leaders to get the community registered as "Saini", supposedly as short form of "Sainik". Having thus remodeled their identity as "Saini", through manipulation of name and taking advantage of the confusion in poorly documented government records, they hoped for Mali community to gain entry into British Indian Army, which exclusively recruited from "martial classes" from which, owing to racist prejudices of colonial era, this group was excluded. The original Sainis, i.e., the Sainis of Punjab were enlisted as "martial class" since the earliest era of British recruitment history of India. Several companies of Sainis recruited from Punjab had fought in World War 1 and Sainis had won many gallantry awards such as OBI, IOM, Cross of St. George, etc equivalents of modern PVCs and MVCs. Later a proposal to raise a full division of Sainis called "Saini Infantry" was also on the anvil Please read all sir Punjabier (talk) 01:43, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Please stop posting your very long argumentation to multiple places
Punjabier, you have posted multiple very long texts to various talk pages, user talk pages, and the Teahouse. Please do not do that. At User talk:David Biddulph you received some very good advice. Please read and follow it. Thank you. --bonadea contributions talk 06:06, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

September 2019
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for persistently making disruptive edits. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page:.
 * Wikipedia is not the place for you to argue that your caste is superior and another caste is inferior. All people are equal and castes are fictional notions that all rational people agree should be abolished. So, make your caste arguments on some other website, not Wikipedia. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  06:24, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Sir why sitush adding mali in bracket with saini why you publicly publishing wrong information about another caste without reliable source you have blocked me but i am correct someone disgrace our community without any reason he is older in Wikipedia thats why you support him Please unblock in future i never discussed about caste but its my gole through proper channel i will try to edit article saini through administrator

You won't be unblocked to continue to edit about castes or promote caste related ideas. If that's all you are here to do, this is the end of the line. If not, what will you edit about if unblocked? 331dot (talk) 07:35, 23 September 2019 (UTC) electrical machine related articles

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