User talk:PyramidalCell

June 2017
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Michael Persinger has been reverted. Your edit here to Michael Persinger was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links in references which are discouraged per our reliable sources guideline. The reference(s) you added or changed (http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=56609) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 05:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello. I saw your edits to the page on Michael Persinger. You might like to look this one over, as it concerns the debates over Persinger's work, which I found recently: http://www.nrgarchive.gdk.mx/2016-reply-to-neuroscience-for-the-soul.pdf  2601:601:8601:CCC0:28C9:8EAD:87EF:6BAF (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Michael Persinger
Whatever you think of me, or my opinions of Michael Persinger is irrelevant. An atheist, a Muslim, or a Buddhist is free to edit the article on Jesus whatever they think or believe about that historical figure. As long as they support their edits with reliable sources. Are you going to start trying to discredit editors who support Tottenham Hotspur as unreliable or biased whenever they edit articles on Manchester United? Are only Nazis allowed to edit the article on Adolf Hitler? Are only communists allowed to edit Karl Marx? No, because that would generate more bias, not less. If you care about unbiased, truthful information on Wikipedia, shut up, stop trying to discredit other editors, and read the policies WP:LEAD, WP:NPOV, WP:PA and WP:COI. My edits are always supported by independent, reliable sources, because that is how we determine the truth, not by snide comments intended to discredit me in the edit description. Famous dog (woof)(grrr) 09:39, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


 * You're quite right about anyone being able to edit - and you should continue to do so. However, it is now part of the public record that your intentions are not to dispassionately record facts. An open fanatic's edits, whether about Nazis or Jesus (to use your examples), might be technically permitted but are suspect and should be revealed as such. I look forward to your further edits which I'm sure will be well-cited and frequent.


 * Don't try to hack my account please. Famous dog (woof)(grrr) 12:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

OK. I promise I won't.


 * I just noticed that Famousdog is actually Craig Aaen-Stockdale, who is the the author of one of the referenced papers for this article. Famousdog put it on his own userpage,so he outed himself.  It's right here:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Famousdog&diff=prev&oldid=691373142
 * He also put up a video that's quite hostile to M. Persinger's work about six years ago. (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnp0w1) Dr. Aaen-stockdale may be, as you say, on a vendetta.  However, the place for that discussion might be on the page for Michael Persinger, not on your talk page.2601:601:9D00:2030:7020:6834:6D7A:A04F (talk) 20:51, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, user. I think the point would be best received if you or anyone other than myself made it. First, I've been wrongly banned from editing that page - no doubt a consequence of FamousDog's recruitment of administrators and fellow editors that recently hacked away at the article. Second, if I'm the only editor with the sense to oppose FamousDog's vendetta, he'll just conspire to gather more of his fellow editors to remove me again and again. As you can see from his comments above, he told me to "shut up" and I was the one accused of abuse. He is clearly abusing his power as an "experienced" editor. PyramidalCell (talk) 21:24, 6 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, it looks like he might be "gaming the system" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gaming_the_system), and it may take some arbitration. I'll think about it.  You may not be blocked from talk page.  The only way to find out is to put in a comment there.  I find it strange that this discussion is not there, where other editors can see it.  Not many of them will see it here.  2601:601:9D00:2030:7020:6834:6D7A:A04F (talk) 21:40, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

A couple of discretionary sanctions notices regarding an article you have edited
What are the implications of thus notice?
 * I'm sorry the notices look so formal and bureaucratic, but I do have to post them exactly the way they are, or they don't "count". The implications are that there have been many problems with pseudoscience articles and with biographical articles, and therefore the Arbitration committee has authorized administrators to use their own discretion (that's why it's called "discretionary sanctions") in sanctioning editors of these articles who edit unhelpfully. For instance, an administrator can give an editor a topic ban from some or all biography articles, if they're editing them disruptively. That would mean the editor wouldn't be allowed to edit biography pages. Of course they would be warned first. Note that the alerts themselves aren't warnings, and they don't mean you have been editing unhelpfully. By giving you the alerts, I basically wanted you to be aware that Michael Persinger is a controversial article, and that you need to study our policies and listen to advice from experienced editors when you edit it. Hope this helps. Btw, please sign your posts on talkpages (not in articles) by adding four tildes ( ~ ) at the end. Bishonen &#124; talk 14:57, 3 May 2018 (UTC).

Thank you for the clarification - that was very helpful. I understand the implications. However, no one can be expected to listen to the advice of a more experienced editor that makes his/her bias for the specific article in question flagrant and uncontroversial. It's a total breach of reasonable expectation of honest editing. PyramidalCell (talk) 15:05, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

May 2018
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like you to assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. ''Having strong feelings doesn't make one a fanatic. '' Doug Weller  talk 18:29, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry Doug, but that's absolute nonsense. FamousDog is Craig Aaen Stockdale, a known hostile critic of Dr. Persinger's with an expressed personal agenda (you can read it on his personal page). If Wikipedia is to preserve any sense of legitimacy, hostile editors - experienced or not - must not be allowed to make swiss cheese of articles because they don't suit their personal narratives. Assumptions of good faith are not reasonable when the editor is transparently biased. Your welcome is not accepted and your condescending tone and suggestions will be disregarded. PyramidalCell (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Except for the bit in italics which I wrote, the rest is a standard template (just as Bishonen gave you standard templates on sanctions set by the WP:Arbitration Committee. The suggestion to assume good faith really is one you should heed. You've only made 41 edits so far, and Wikipedia has a big learning curve. After over 180,000 edits I'm still learning. You'll get a lot further by giving reasoned arguments for your edits. I note the IP (who is obviously not a new editor) mentions arbitration - I'm not sure what he had in mind but there's nothing here for the Committee. And we allow biased editors to edit, most people have a point of view. I had to let an obvious Nazi edit because they were following our guidelines and policies - until they weren't. Doug Weller  talk 13:27, 7 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Just thought - please don't misunderstand my last comment, it was solely about editors with bias not being a problem if they follow our policies and guidelines. Doug Weller  talk 13:43, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Of course he should be able to edit. If you read the original disagreement, I make my view on this explicit. However, he and the Nazi (to use your example) should be exposed publicly as biased. As long as the public record reflects a disclosure of bias, anyone should be able to write what they want assuming inclusion of referenced materials. All I did, which earned me an "abuse" strike, was point out that the edit history should include a note that FamousDog is Craig Aaen Stockdale - a hostile critic with a written, expressed agenda on this very platform who, when confronted, told me to "shut up". I'm certain his senior status shielded him from any action against him. On an unrelated note, it seems clear to me that the consensus opinion of editors and administrators on Wikipedia is that a small group of experienced editors are the anointed keepers of facts. You (Doug) don't appear to be exceptional in this regard since you contrasted my 41 edits with your >180,000 following an injunction only a fool could follow in this situation - a kind of "humble brag" which serves to diminish my contributions. Believe it or not, there's an entire civilization outside of this forum that is filled with experts and non-experts that 1) know how to type on a keyboard, and 2) can reference basic statements (i.e., the required skill set). Experience does not confer authority in the real world. The task of aggregating knowledge is basic stuff - that's why AIs can so effectively do it and why Wikipedia can use bots to police the limited set of rules. Make 1,000,000 edits - your authority on a given subject is orthogonal to the time you spend in front of the screen. PyramidalCell (talk) 18:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not getting through obviously. Experience gives a user a better understanding of how Wikipedia works. The required skill set is much more than being able to type and reference. Have you read WP:NPOV yet? Or WP:NOR? I can't see how you have the experience to make such a sweeping judgement of how we work and what the consensus opinion is. Doug Weller  talk 18:42, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Look, this is peripheral to the main point which is that FamousDog is a bad actor. His admission of bias on his personal page and hostility toward me as well as his recruitment of editors to remove large swaths of text en masse over the past few days are evidence enough for anyone that can conjure a thought. But I won't avoid your comment: Indeed, experience does give someone a better understanding of how Wikipedia works - such is the case for any learned task. Of course that's true. That's not what our disagreement is about. I'll repeat myself: Experience does not confer authority. Yes, you are more familiar with the rules. That's true. So are several other editors and administrators I have written to (nearly all of them, I'm sure). However, I was referred to these rules as if they were relevant - which they were and are not. First I was instructed to assume good faith. I'm sure all of you think that's a great rule - and maybe it is generally - but it doesn't apply when no assumption is required and the actor in question is indeed acting in bad faith. We have what we need to know to make that judgement call. Assuming otherwise is just mindless, rule-following behavior. Sure, you have a rule which is supposed to be followed but it assumes something that is not true. The person for whom I would have to assume good faith has written out his bad-faith-intentions clearly for everyone to see. You can repeat that rule ad nauseaum and it will continue to be irrelevant. Then I was told that I should give reasoned arguments for my edits as if "to disclose clear bias" was not reasoned. I think we should resume this conversation after I've made my 180,000 edits and receive my capacity to reason by mail. Will it come by Fedex or UPS?