User talk:RHaworth/Archive to 2005 August

Aerial photo links

 * The multimap links to aerial views are not very appropriate for use in Scotland, the areas covered are minimal, indeed those areas that are allegedly covered simply don't work and haven't for some time. -- User:Fraslet 20:34, 2005 May 2
 * Feel free to develop a map-only template for Scotland but be aware that I hope that before not very long all the templates will be changed to look like this:
 * for Hardgate
 * On the map sources page try the Terraserver link. OK, the picture has moved two more clicks away from the article but you do get a choice of four satellite images. -- RHaworth 13:52, 2005 May 3 (UTC)
 * I changed my mind, I have added a map sources link to and retained the existing links - see Hardgate for example. -- RHaworth 04:54, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

GB location data
Now at wikisource:British locations. Lupin 23:45, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * "WARNING: This page is 2169 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections." But thanks anyway. -- RHaworth 23:53, 2005 May 9 (UTC)


 * Much quicker, if you look up the map as you write the page, Multimap gives you the co-odinates in the different formats if you scroll down, which is much quicker. My problem is I used mmuk at 1000000 scale, but the scales for the "other map sources" seemed to be erratic. Chevin 13:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Template:gbmapping
You might like to look at the discussion at Template talk:gbmapping where there seems to be some disquiet about the recent changes. Personally I really like the new mechanism, at least when browsing with Firefox, but it doesn't seem to work at all well in Microsoft Internet Exploder. I get a 'yellow redirection notice' every time I click on a Template:gbmapping link, and that same notice captures my 'back' button so I cannot get back to the original article. -- Chris j wood 20:14, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Union Bridge
I'd like to encourage you to post Union Bridge (Tweed) at the DYK section for the main page. -- Samuel Wantman 10:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pentrich, Derbyshire
On my browser (Firefox) your yellow marker dot for Pentrich appears to be in Northern France... :-) Linuxlad
 * Oh ! I have tested it with two versions of Internet Explorer and two versions of Opera. 1) Try a few more of Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:GBthumb. 2) If they are all faulty, try Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Ie citytown infobox. If the Irish one works and the British does not, tell me. If both don't work, tell User:Bastique because I cribbed GBthumb straight from Ie_citytown_infobox. -- RHaworth 12:30, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)

Will have to be later (appropriately, going up to Derby now - will see if I can find a yellow dot on the way there). Belper dot was in the right place, so is Alfreton. EW location of Pentrich dot is also about right but it's about 6 inches too low (at the word 'informer') Bob
 * Also, try any "Map sources" link and select "Find this location on Multimap (aerial photo) - with circle (using lat/long)". Does that work? The multimap circle is applied in much the same way as the Pentrich dot. (But the Belper dot is a totally different dot!) -- RHaworth 20:26, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)

The browser is actually Firebird (pre release Firefox). Lichfield, Slough don't work either. I don't usually have a problem with Multimap.

Just tried Dillo on it - Belper, Alfreton are OK. Pentrich is NOT. (Dillo prides itself on being standard W3C html). -- Linuxlad
 * The write-up on Dillo says it don't support CSS so we would not expect it to handle any of these pages using Template:GBthumb. Re Firefox: Does it place a red circle around Belper on this Multimap link.
 * Yes. the circle's there, within the town Linuxlad
 * And what does it make of these Irish pages?
 * I tried these - couldn't see anything untoward.
 * My feelings are that CSS is now an integral part of HTML and that the benefits of the GBthumb technique are so great
 * which, why! There appear to be lots of maps that do without it!
 * that we can ignore any browser that does not support CSS properly. But let's see what User:Bastique thinks. -- RHaworth 06:15, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC)
 * Very debatable! Wikipedia is meant to be a fairly accessible site - I would be disappointed if reasonable accomodation couldn,t be made for Dillo and its kind. If we go down the bells and whistles route, we'll end up needing Flash and a full JVM - WP should use the lowest level technique that delivers IMHO. Eg. I sometimes run Dillo on a playstation2 or on an old 486. It gives me 99% of what I want at 1% of the cost of a modern hot-box. Linuxlad

"I tried these - couldn't see anything untoward." Just to be clear on that, please. Look at the Swords, Dublin article. There is a map. With Firefox do you see a red dot? Where is that dot? RWH Same question for Dublin (which has slightly different HTML for its dot). RWH If you see dots for those and in the right places then we do have a strange problem with the GBthumb dots. -- RHaworth 07:19, 2005 Jun 18 (UTC)
 * One dot, in the box but offshore on the East coat.Linuxlad 11:22, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * A blob where I think Dublin is, and another dot, offshore, roughly where the Swords one was.Linuxlad

Thank you very much for taking the trouble to follow this thread. I have posted this screen shot (Opera 8 under Windows XP) to show what I see for these two Co. Dublin articles. Both Bastique and I would be very interested to see screen shot/s from Firefox of the same articles. It is probably easiest if you post them to one of your own websites but you can upload them to Wiki instead. Mention of a blob and a dot for Dublin is puzzling - it cannot be surely that you are mistaking Lambay Island for a computer-generated dot. -- RHaworth 19:45, 2005 Jun 18 (UTC)

Adding a map to Whitchurch, Hampshire
I am puzzled. After much searching I cannot see how you create a small map with a yellow dot on it to show the location. Would you point me at the relevant page? Thanks -- User:Jmcc150 20 June 2005 15:07 UTC
 * Template:GBthumb. I will try and find time to document it. -- RHaworth 18:03, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)

Red link recovery project
Howdy, Topbanana here, back after an extended absence. I've decided to round up a few of my more useful reports into a project with the goal of converting as many "red links" (links to non-existant articles) into "blue links" (links to real articles). As you've been active in fixing similar things in the past, I thought I'd let you know in case you're interested in joining up. If not, I won't be offended - we've all got lots todo here :) - TB 11:38, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

Madge of Hambledon
jguk is taking a wikibreak. I have also heard the story of Madge and afaik, what he has written is true. Please let it be. I'll try to find some authentic source and more background. Tintin 28 June 2005 06:51 (UTC)

WP600 list
Hi - I don't mind that you added yourself to the list I made. I added a note with your entry since you don't actually meet the criteria as stated (which refers to the WP:1000 list as of a particular date). -- Rick Block (talk) July 8, 2005 01:56 (UTC)

SER
[originally posted in User talk:Nichalp] I am not too happy with what you have done to South Eastern Railway. There are over fifty articles which refer to the UK railway and so far only two or three which link to the Indian one. Will you please do one of the following: Thanks. -- RHaworth 2005 July 8 00:54 (UTC)
 * (Preferably) move South Eastern Railway (UK) back to South Eastern Railway - and provide an -style link at the top of it to the Indian SER.
 * Complete the job and modify all articles with links to South Eastern Railway to point to the proper article.


 * Hi! Thanks for your message.
 * The normal Wikipedia approach is the main article space should go to the best-known usage. The names are equally popular since they are localised. Since we have a larger UK wikipedian contingent, its no surprise that the UK railways has so many articles linked to it. (You can also read this: WikiProject Countering systemic bias)
 * I don't like to do repetitive tasks and copyediting, as after a couple of such edits, ennui sets in. I looked out for a wikiproject that does such tasks, but apparently I could not. This dab work would ideally have to be done by a bot. I'll anyways look out for someone who undertakes such tasks in the meantime.
 * Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»=  July 8, 2005 08:53 (UTC)

What that really means is that there should be no double redirects or self redirects. Such pages point to nowhere. There are lots of pages that do not link directly link to the article. Its really not a crime, someone or the other is bound to fix it. It really doesn't need an admin to carry out the task does it? :) Regards, 09:00, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

verses
Hiya,

you recently voted to merge John 20:16

Uncle G has made a wider proposal covering a much larger group of verses.

would you be prepared to make a similar vote at Votes for deletion/Individual Bible verses, which covers the full list of verses in Uncle G's suggestion?

9 July 2005 16:41 (UTC)


 * Actually it was way back in Feb. I am no longer interested but thanks for notifying me. -- RHaworth 20:33, 2005 July 12 (UTC)

Template:Coor and related
I am not going to be so gentle. Stop it immediately and revert what you have done. Template:coor contains the URL of an external resource which is liable to change at any time. We want just one point in Wikipedia where this URL is held. Sure, having nested templates creates a slight additional hardware overhead but it is worth it for the information localisation benefits. -- RHaworth 2005 July 9 17:12 (UTC)


 * I understand your feeling that having one place to make any future changes is nice. Sure it is.  The problem is that that convenience comes at a cost which is felt every other moment.   Look at the history of template:Coor - It hasn't been changed in three months, and I'd think is unlikely to change anytime soon.  Even if it does, you can contact me and I'll help populate that change to the related templates - there just aren't that many. Until then, the code should be part of each template itself.  This completely eliminates the overhead.  Further debate really should be moved to Template talk:Coor. -- Netoholic @ 9 July 2005 17:18 (UTC) -- Netoholic @ 9 July 2005 17:18 (UTC)
 * If I can add one personal note - there's no reason to be rude. -- Netoholic @ 9 July 2005 17:20 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I have not time at the moment to compose careful replies. Please suspend operations and wait for consensus in Template talk:coor. -- RHaworth 2005 July 9 17:26 (UTC)
 * I'll stop conversions pending more discussion - I think I've converted the big hitters already. I hope you'll also agree not to revert, since there is no immediate harm either. -- Netoholic @ 9 July 2005 17:30 (UTC)

Bill Kelly
Hi! I prefer to reserve the template for use only in the extreme case of repeated article recreations from multiple IPs. It is just possible that someone may have a legitimate article to write about a different Bill Kelly from the one referred to in the article that was deleted. Since this article was originally deleted, the IP 24.56.237.85 (talk &bull; contribs) has placed a new article here twice. I don't (yet) see this as persistent recreation and I would prefer to take the approach of warning the IP first and then blocking them for any future recreations. JeremyA

naked news
You changed the Naked news article to be a redirect to Naked News. Would you mind, if the article Naked news was used for the phenomenon in general and pointed out in the article that Naked News was the first provider of such. --Easyas12c 19:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I mind very much that different articles should not have titles that differ only in the case of certain letters - it is a recipe for confusion for example, in case-insensitive search engines. I suggest: move Naked News to Naked News, Toronto this will leave you free to write your general article on whichever variant of "Naked news" you prefer. But make sure it contains a link to the Toronto one. -- RHaworth 19:35, 2005 July 12 (UTC)
 * Another example: key "south eastern railway" (without the "'s) into Wiki's search box and click "Go" - it will return South Eastern Railway automatically. -- RHaworth 21:10, 2005 July 12 (UTC)

devils hole
Nice find about devil's hole! thanksZeimusu | (Talk page) 23:34, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

v
true. sorry. freestylefrappe 21:58, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Meiringen
Hi - apologies for removing the streetsign image; I didn't mean to imply it was a copyvio. In fact, I meant to keep it in but accidentally removed it while I was rewriting. I did just move it out of its inlined position in the text; using an image to replace text makes the name of the street inaccessible to people not using images, including text readers for the blind. CDC  (talk)  17:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you.
Thanks for your help ^^. What you told me to do is much easier than what I had been doing. Tahngarth  (talk)

Vfd
Thank you for telling me so I can stop doing it the wrong way. I'm relatively new to deletion policies and so on.(about 2 weeks). Jobe6 22:03, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE tell me I'm seeing things! PLEASE tell me you haven't just undermined an entire month's work by creating England-geo-stub! PLEASE before creating any stub category check what's going on with the stub-sorting project! (Surely you saw the box at the top of Category: UK geography stubs telling you not to add subcategories without checking there first!)

I'm in the middle of the arduous job of counting and analysing all the England stubs to see what categories need to be split off from UK-geo-stub as sections of England. The job is nearing completion - I now know what counties 2744 of the 3911 stubs are from, and in two days time I will be creating several subcategories. A separate single England-geo-stub is useless, since it simply means moving all but about 60 of the stubs currently separate in UK-geo-stub into it - a complete waste of tineme. Please DO NOT USE this new stub - at least for now - and please remove all references to it everywhere, because if anyone uses it it will make a long, tedious effort worthless. As explained both at WP:WSS/C and at Category talk:Geography stubs, the split will be going ahead very very soon - within the next two or three days, in fact. Unless, of course, this new category and template is used, in which case the count will have to start all over again, since items will no doubt be disappearing from one category and reappearing in the other, and trying to keep track of them will become very difficult. I've temporarily redirected the template and blanked the category. As I said, this is temporary - please wait until the count is complete and the split is done (with any luck within a week) - then it can be returned. But for now, it really does get in the way of the work. Grutness... wha? 12:13, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Grovel. Grovel. I did not check. Please revert my stuff asap. before anyone else gets the wrong idea. -- RHaworth 12:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Apologies again. I see you have reverted - note that as you have left it, Category:UK geography stubs does not actually tell people what to do with England stubs - might be better to revert my edits completely. But let me be positive: point me at the list of (3911 - 2744) stubs you mention above, tell me what categories have been decided on and I will see what I can do to help. -- RHaworth 13:22, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry for howling! As you can imagine, though, it was not a particularly nice surprise. As I said, there will be a use for your creations, particularly the category, but I just don't want people to start moving things between the two categories which I'm sorting them. At the moment it looks like five individual counties are likely to get their own stubs (or in one case, a group of counties which are traditionally one): Durham, Northants, Lincs, Yorks and Dorset - these all have far more stubs than any of the others. The main trouble is that - after 500 years of hardly changing the counties at all, England seems to have failed to settle properly on new ones, with changes every five years or so. So I've got to work out whether Teesside/Cleveland should go in with Yorkshire, and things like that. Don't think of helping just as an obligation because of England-geo-stub, though - in other circumstances that may well have been a reasonable idea. If you are keen to help, though, then just keep an eye on the UK geography stubs category. The new stub templates will appear there once they're made, and I'll put a list on a subpage of my website to show what stubs need to be changed to them (this is what I do with other geo-stub splits, which I seem to have largely become responsible for somehow). Sorry again for my overreaction. Grutness... wha? 23:58, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Skelton Hall
Hello! Per your request, I have expanded the article to point to "why Shandy". Of course that is a hall of infinite mirrors. Thank you for your help in disambiguating which Skelton - literally I could not have done it myself. All the best. -- Some random IP address

Londonderry/Derry
Can you tell me why you put #REDIRECT Derry on the page Londonderry/Derry that I made? I made this page to resolve the dispute over this page.
 * Reply at Talk:Derry.

Proposing a new template
Hello

As stated in the notes of the Hlaungadath article, it might be of some use to create a {FR-intro} template. The basis would be something like this

This article treats about the fictional setting of Faerûn.

Where do I propose such a thing?

ThanksReply to David Latapie 00:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Be bold. Don't propose. Do it. I don't think treats about is idiomatic. Try: "This article is about Faerûn, a fictional continent, the primary setting of Forgotten Realms". Without the "s and not in italics - italics at the start of an article suggest a see-also type header (eg. Harworth). -- RHaworth 06:37, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I will follow your advice but for consistency reasons, I would have prefered a template. Maybe if enough people are interested… Reply to David Latapie 14:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


 * When I wrote "do it" above, I meant: create a template. Did I say anything about copying the text into each article? -- RHaworth 17:41:36, 2005-07-25 (UTC)

Another thankyou
I'm pretty new to this. Decided I should take the time to say thankyou for the improvement to Commonwealth of Caledonia Australis. I'm not an expert in fringe groups, I just live in a hotspot of them.

I'm going to try to expand that article (and some others) in the near future, and I'd deeply appreciate any stylistic advice you can give. Alex Law 06:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Aldermarston
is clearly marked - Do not use this template yet. I will get into trouble from Grutness if people use it. And the place is Aldermaston anyway. -- RHaworth 07:39:13, 2005-07-28 (UTC)


 * Terribly sorry, I just picked what seemed the most accurate and descriptive place to put in the general form X-geo-stub without looking at the stub message or doing any research into the place. It was just a special:newpages click which I felt would benefit from my 2 seconds changing the generic stub message to something more useful (and while the stub message I picked might be deprecated, it did have the beneficial effect of having someone who knows a great deal more than myself about the subject notice the page and realize it was a misspelling).  Sorry if I've caused any problems between you and Grutness, and I will remember to use uk-geo-stub if I run across any more stubs that should be categorized as such. -- Jonel | Speak 15:07, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


 * All my fault. I added the stub to the stub list once I finished the count of which stubs were from which counties, but forgot to announce that it could be used again. (PS - I see from your user page that you live in my mum's old home town. She spent much of her childhood in Thornton Heath). Grutness... wha? 08:18, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Reply to Message

 * Thank you for the advice. I am just learning how to use this web site.  It is a great service and I am sorry if I have done anything to complicate it. 68.218.201.169 20:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

A question
Since we started conversing about UK geography stubs, I've been keeping an eye on your edits (all for the best possible reasons, I assure you!). You seem to be diligent, civil Wikipedian, and you've got several thousand edits (albeit a lot of them minor ones) - have you ever considered becoming an admin? I'd be happy to nominate you if you are interested. Grutness... wha? 11:53, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I have been thinking it is about time I got admin rights. Yes, please nominate me. -- RHaworth 09:01:06, 2005-08-08 (UTC)
 * Done. Please officially accept nomination and answer the questions at Requests for adminship/RHaworth - and good luck! Grutness... wha? 09:40, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Mail Redirect
Thanks for redirecting my 'sandbox'. Dont know what happend there. I was editing it when Omegatron decided to move it (properly?) into my user space. So how it got into yours God only Knows. , I have lost a lot of stuff over the past 18 hours so if you have any other text that looks unfamiliar, pleas send it to me and I'll check if its mine. Thanks :) Light current 19:18, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I obviously created My Sandbox in the wrong place :-( although I thought I followed the instructions on how to do so properly. Sorry to have caused any inconvenience. I think my other problems may be due to comms problems at my end. Any way it seems to have cleared up for now. :-) Light current 12:37, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Grand Union Canal
I've initiated some discussion at Talk:Grand Union Canal on your proposal to merge Grand Union Canal (old) with Grand Union Canal. As you made the proposal, your input would be welcome. Thanks. StephenDawson 06:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * My merge proposal was really just a gut reaction to the stubby state that Grand Union Canal (old) was in at the time. Purely on article length, it now looks viable in its own right. I am happy to leave others to discuss the matter. (But I am interested in canals - I have just added a pic to Ribble Link.) -- RHaworth 04:08:33, 2005-08-11 (UTC)

DAXX stubs
I do agree with your comment - very careless of me! However on your second point - I would hardly have gone to all the trouble of writing the stubs if I'd known about the agreement, would I? It seems that others can be careless too - in not deleting all the others! Ah well - c'est la vie! Peter Shearan 19:52, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

IsWayne...
Roger, What do we do with people like this? Page = Berks County, Pennsylvania Look at IsWayneBradygonnahavetosmackabitch = Garbage

Your friend: Scotty RHaworth 17:12:37, 2005-08-13 (UTC)
 * What are you complaining about: the user's edits or their name? As to the latter I have commented at User talk:IsWayneBradygonnahavetosmackabitch. Q. What do we do with people like this? A. We welcome them with open arms as good Wikipedians with a sense of humo[u]r (which wiki needs more of). --


 * >Good answer, I guess I'm just an ordinary person, Make it still new.Scotty

Congratulations

 * Congratulations on your excellent work, Keep it up, I think you got the votes, and today is the deadline. I've been watching the *Tallies.


 * Maybe we can get more space here! Scotty


 * I am positively embarassed by the RfA votes. More space here - more space where for what? There is no shortage of space (but I do need to archive this page a bit). -- RHaworth 19:20:18, 2005-08-14 (UTC)

Congratulations!
Congratulations! It's my pleasure to let you know that, consensus being reached, you are now an administrator. You should read the relevant policies and other pages linked to from the administrators' reading list before carrying out tasks like deletion, protection, banning users, and editing protected pages such as the Main Page. Most of what you do is easily reversible by other sysops, apart from page history merges and image deletion, so please be especially careful with those. You might find the new administrators' how-to guide helpful. Cheers! -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 07:07, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Congratulations! I have no doubts at all that you'll be a good admin - enjoy the colossal powers that come with it (what? oh, right)... erm, enjoy that minor but very useful powers that come with it! Grutness... wha? 09:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Congrats from me too! Shantavira 19:26, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Many thanks for all the kind congrats above (and for voting for me). Don't expect to see me flexing my Admin muscles immediately. In fact don't expect any edits - I am taking a few days off. -- RHaworth 08:48:28, 2005-08-15 (UTC)

Miss you already
It's been two days and I miss you... Hey, hope you are having a wonderful time. In all sincerity... "Sometimes you have to stop and smell the roses".

When is the Wiki-Convention and where? Where are you? Scotty

Chevin Page
"It's your user page so I will not be at all offended if you choose to delete this picture" Not at all. I'm tickled!Chevin 08:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Is your picture of the right one though? (Chevin's Chevin is the one near Milford Derbyshire, [I presume]...)Linuxlad PS, yes I too DO 'own' an IP)


 * Read the image description. -- RHaworth 17:50:48, 2005-08-20 (UTC)

Kenneth McKellar

 * I recreated the article but this time with proper content. I'm not sure of the catagories other than the stub for this. CambridgeBayWeather 18:20, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Putting the map into infoboxes
Hey there, I've been putting the static versions of the maps you've created into the infobox (Template:Infobox England place with map) - for example Newbury, Berkshire. I've came accross GBthumb and I'm not sure how to go about putting that into the infobox, since that has a frame and is rather large for the infobox. Could you take a look at User:Joolz/workshop3 and tell me what effect scaling it down to 115px (5px for the dot) will have on the positioning of the dot? Thanks -- Joolz 19:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I did not create the static versions - that was Lupin. Looks fine to me. The east and south offsets used in a GBthumb call need to be scaled down by $$\frac{23}{36}$$ = 0.638889. The example here is for Mersea Island and looks OK. -- RHaworth 12:00:15, 2005-08-21 (UTC)
 * Oops yes, Lupin did create the static ones, my mistake! Thanks for your advice, I'll create GBthumb2 for this. Cheers, Joolz 12:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Two HTML Questions:
Roger what is &amp;hellip; and &amp;nbsp;. I had to get rid of the &amp; to post this. Know you are busy, when you have a chance...Thanks Scotty
 * Systemic-bias alert. Wiki editors please remember: there are real people out there who have never seen the HTML manual! Look at character entity references. Others that you may need are: &amp;mdash; (&mdash;), &amp;rarr; (&rarr;) &amp; &amp;amp; (&amp;). -- RHaworth 18:42:43, 2005-08-21 (UTC)

I see:

nbsp  CDATA -- no-break space = non-breaking space, hellip  CDATA -- horizontal ellipsis = three dot leader, mdash  CDATA -- em dash, amp    CDATA -- ampersand, ISOnum Could not find rarr.

Hey won't waste your time on it anymore. You will make an excellent admin.

You made the list of Admin's
WP:LA

Scotty

Vandal
Hi. Could you please block this IP User talk:202.74.164.3, who is vandalisng Jew and Jews in the Middle Ages and has been warned several times. Thanks TigerShark 07:16, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * User:FCYTravis got there first cos I was having to find out how to do it! -- RHaworth 07:36:55, 2005-08-25 (UTC)