User talk:Raime/Archive 11

=April 2008=

constructing oceans

 * Still not sure if I should reply here or on my user sub page. Thoughts?  There are very few articles on Korean buildings.  Every major building in the world either has a Samsung worker's fingerprints on it or a skeleton full of Posco steel.  But in Seoul, all the buildings are usually quite small and boring.  They've got a few, but not as many as they could.  Anyway, there appears to be no list of tallest buildings in either Korea, Seoul, Busan, Incheon, Daegu or any where else there.  I keep encountering famous buildings without wiki pages which saddens me.  Like Star Tower, with its new stupid name, Gangnam Finance Centre
 * actually i can't find any buildings on emporis because I don't know their English names. :o/  I always called this the Kyobo Building, which apparantly is something else and this is Kyobo Gangnam Tower.  Kill me...  That is a landmark, across the street from the Urban Hive, which I've been meaning to start an article for too.  :o/  So do you think I should attempt a tallest building article for Seoul or South Korea?  I'm afraid.  But you seem to be the specialist on that point.
 * P.S. have you seen the Falconcity of Wonders pictures? I'm stunned by the proposal.  At first it seems really stupid, but with all that water and super tree like canopies, it could be pretty nice, which I hate to say... because it is real estate shaped like a falcon.  (shaking head)
 * I hope you are well, and I welcome any more thoughts you have on the Lotte building. There is one under development in Busan, but that is a different site.DaronDierkes (talk) 06:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I started the article, List of tallest buildings in Seoul. We'll see where this goes.DaronDierkes (talk) 07:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I do know how to use subheaders and how to sign my name, I just forget sometimes. Sorry.  Anyway, I think it would be great to start a featured article drive, though I don't really know exactly what that means.  :o)  Would people really try to help?  It is a stub.  Making it a featured article would take a lot of work.  I'm down.  First I should fix some of those names.  :o/  I have a picture problem though.  somebody came along and put all my pictures into a gallery when I was trying to put them on the side like in all the other articles.  There really isn't a great picture of the skyline even this fantastic shot only covers one side of the city.  On the other side of namsan tower is the han river and on the other side of that is a huge array of tall buildings.  So no matter how you try, there's no way to capture all the buildings in one picture like you can in an american city.  As exemplified by Image:Teheran Ave night.jpg (that big shiny one in the back is star tower) they are not built together, but in lines along roads.  So i'm not sure how to include all those different images.  I guess a gallery is better than the onslaught of boxes i had going.  I noticed that the LA article shows cityscapes while most of your featured articles show individual buildings.  I suppose that's better.  Anyway, guide me and I will follow.  If we make a nice list of buildings with links, then I can slowly work on building up those linked building pages.
 * Also, if you get the chance, read this. hilarious.  :o) DaronDierkes (talk) 08:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to help with houston. I went down there for a conference a couple years ago and remember being floored by the high way system and skyline.  It was totally unexpected. They even have a tram running on the streets.  not the texas I imagined.  then I saw the exxon building and things started clearing up.  About six months ago I was in scotland and encountered an incredible amount of people from Houston up there near Aberdeen chasing after north sea oil.  I'd love to help.  I'll see what i can do.  I'm leaving tomorrow for a while.  My girlfriend and I are going to hop around the Riau Islands.  I'll be back though.
 * Those skyline pictures are rather dull, don't you think? The air is pretty dirty in the first too.  anyway, how do we go about getting permission for pictures like that?  I don't have any appropriate pictures in my own collection.  I added to the WP Korea page and architecture sub page.
 * Now on to Houston! (pronounced "how-stan")DaronDierkes (talk) 03:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Minn
By the way could you improve Pittsburgh list? I have already done some work on the lead. Alaskan assassin (talk) 20:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC) So if I get articlues for all the building it will be ready for FL?Alaskan assassin (talk) 20:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Pittsburg
I have made articles for all the buildings. When will Charlotte and Minneapolis become Feautued List? Also how fo you make pictures where you can put your cursor on them and identify them? Likme the one here: List of tallest buildings in Jersey City Alaskan assassin (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Houston
Hello Raime, I admire your work on the featured building lists. I would like to get List of tallest buildings in Houston to featured status, any advice or recommendations? Thanks, Postoak (talk) 22:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your advice! While you're working your magic at Pittsburgh, I will get started on the redlinked articles on the Houston building list. Postoak (talk) 22:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I won't be able to make the pages at as quick as rate as before on Houston. Thanks for the barnstar! Alaskan assassin (talk) 23:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you both for your help. I created one article to eliminate the redlink to Four Leaf Towers and "un-redirected" Pennzoil Place. I need to get the camera and take some pics. Will continue with the others. Postoak (talk) 02:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's great, sorry I didn't participate the past week..I was on a business trip. Is there anything else I can do to help? Noticed one thing, item 34 is listed twice and there is no 35. Is this intentional? Thanks, Postoak (talk) 04:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, two towers that are joined by a common lobby area. Here's a better pic . The middle pic at the bottom is looking down inside the lobby, very cool. Since both sources are different, maybe describe the two identical towers with the common area in the notes section? Postoak (talk) 05:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Dubai templates and ACID
Sorry for this late reply. I was busy, but I have returned. Referring to the template page, I am not sure which color would be best. I think a color that has some relation to Dubai would be good. The red of the flag is too much, but a tan or light brown that mimics the desert sands might be nice. But, this desert color should not be similar to the color within the templates.

To remove the “crush,” we could remove the navbox. All the templates are linked on that page anyway, and a link to the main page can be found at the top. I will keep the link to the template page on the navbox (but I did put it under the “main pages” section) so that it can be accessed easily. And, I support the creation of UAE-struct-stub. I will nominate it soon.

Thank you for letting me know about the Dubai list being selected as the List of the Month. It is nice to know that people appreciate our work. Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 01:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The current colors look great. Thank you.  The navbar would be good, but is not necessary.  Having a quick look at the template page, it does look a little "empty" after removing the navbox.  Having the navbar would probably fix this optical illusion.  Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 02:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * ...and I just proposed UnitedArabEmirates-struct-stub at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2008/April. I was not sure what information they wanted me to provide, so feel free to add on to it.  And one quick question: is a navbar considered a project page or a template (in reference to the project tag on the navbar's talk page)?  The navbox has a template tag on its talk page.  Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 02:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Emporis.com
Hey, just wanted to let you know that Emporis.com tends to be wrong on their dates for construction completions, which is why I changed them to more realistic dates despite Emporis. For example, it says Met 3 is set to be completed by 2009, and it hasn't even broken ground, so it obviously will not be done by 2009. Just thought I'd let you know. --Comayagua99 (talk) 06:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC) ~Well if leaving some dates blank means leaving all the dates blank because they're all sourced to Emporis, I'd say no, because then you would not have any idea of when the buildings are to be completed. On the other hand, I don't think having things like Met 3 to be completed in 2009 when it hasn't even broken ground to be correct either. So, I'd say it'd be best to just leave the ones that are obviously wrong blank unless another source can be found. --Comayagua99 (talk) 07:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

April GA Newsletter
The April issue of the WikiProject Good Articles Newsletter is now available. Dr. Cash (talk) 04:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Template?
Your opinion, please? Nyttend (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:150 Greenwich Street (WTC 4).jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:150 Greenwich Street (WTC 4).jpg. You've indicated that the image is being used under a claim of fair use, but you have not provided an adequate explanation for why it meets Wikipedia's requirements for such images. In particular, for each page the image is used on, the image must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Can you please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's escription page for each article the image is used in.
 * That every article it is used on is linked to from its description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * Image:175 Greenwich Street (WTC 3).jpg

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WP:LOTD
I hope you enjoyed your wikibreak. There are just over five days remaining at User:TonyTheTiger/List of the Day/voting/200805 to cast yoru votes.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 20:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

FTD
I made articlus for all the Houston buildings. After we get houston a FLC what list should we work on next? Alaskan assassin (talk) 02:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll start on Jersy City and then move to Seattle. Ive been to New York a few times. Even though I prefer rual Western North Carolina, I love the urban feel of manhattan. Alaskan assassin (talk) 00:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I finished Jersey City, and i'll probaly start on Seattle tomarrow. One thing that confused me was that there were so many complex's instead of just one building so I did not know wether to add an infobox or not. But besides that they all have references and are catorgaized. I noticed Houston already have 3 supports so it will proably not have to be extended. Also about your skyline rankings. are you ever going to make that an article? What about page for ranking all the worlds skylines? Alaskan assassin (talk) 00:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * 1010 Park is canclled so I removed it from the Minneapolis list. It is also been nominated for delition but i think thats all right scince it's cancelled. Alaskan assassin (talk) 19:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll start on LA tonight. About the Space Needle, maybe have it on there, but not a rank. Have maybe the the 5th building on there, the Space Needle and then the 6th building. But I think that it should be on there for comparitive purposes. Thanks for the infobox info. About the skyline rankings, that makes scince because some people might think that the skylines should be ranked on buildings over 400ft or stuff like that. Alaskan assassin (talk) 21:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have made articles for all the completed buildings in L.A. Could you take off the links for the approved, proposed, and under construction buildings that you don't think are notable? Alaskan assassin (talk) 00:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have finished making articles for Los Angeles. I removed the 755 Tower and the Zen Tower from the list because I think there cancelled. According to Skyscraperpage the Zen tower is a stale propsal thyat was supposed to start construction in 2006. The 755 tower was supposed to start construction last year, and I saw on the skyscraperpage forums that most people thought it was cancelled. Anyway, I'll start on Seattle soon. Alaskan assassin (talk) 20:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Tallest Buildings in Seoul
Sorry if I appeared to drop off the radar. It seems that any attempt to build up the List of tallest buildings in Seoul or List of Museums in Seoul is going to need to be done alongside some extensive geographical work. I've been trying to put together Gu of Seoul and an article like Dong of Gangnam-gu for each gu, which will take forever. So if there is a FL drive for Seoul, I do hope there will be proper location articles to link the buildings to. I know I was going to help out with the Houston list, but I got pretty distracted with this. I'm a rebellious child. Please forgive me. Keep on keepin on. DaronDierkes (talk) 07:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I should rephrase. The geographical aspect is necessary for me.  Still there is a location part on the individual building articles too, so it is kind of important to the project.  Though, you are correct, they could grow side by side without too much trouble.  I guess it just seems to me that in a city without reliable street signs, knowing the name of the block you are on is of extreme importance.  All in good time, I guess.
 * So where do you live most of the time, you seem to be bouncing around new england and miami a lot. New Jersey is a really interesting place.  Dig up the grass and you find sand.  Most importantly, it is a suburban state of sorts in that Philly and NYC store a great deal of their work forces there but shun it politically.  The whole state is mostly urban but most people don't recognize it as having a major city of any importance even though Newark and Trenton are of pretty decent size.  Everybody I met there was bald with muscles and tattoos.  Fascinating place, really.  :o)
 * Anyway, yes, keep me on. I still don't really know what I'm doing.  There are so many fine points that confuse me like moving things back and forth from the commons, using categories correctly, and setting correct margin widths every time.  DaronDierkes (talk) 04:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, you did clear up a lot of my concerns there. I'm left with the question of why we would upload images to the English site at all.  Why not put all the images on the commons?  I've put up a pretty decent number of photos.  It seems like it would take some time to move everything.  Some other day, I guess.  For margin widths I guess my biggest problem is understanding why some tables and infoboxes are crazy huge and others are not.  For instance, a lot of the mall infoboxes that I've touched have pictures taking up half the page.  The only way to correct it is to make the damn image a thumb.  :o(  I'm pretty overwhelmed when I try to look at the source for custom made infoboxes and tables.  I've made several poorly-sized infoboxes and I usually just wait for other people to come by and adjust them.  Likewise with categories, I haven't really been using them because other users come by soon enough to put the tags in.  It seems like some people kind of specialize in that sort of thing.  For now, I have no futher questions on these things, but i'm sure as soon as i try them, I'll run into some snags.
 * Today I'm more pre-occupied with the rampant misinformation I'm encountering everywhere I go on wikipedia. I put so much trust into what is written here, but it often turns out to be bogus.  I read Wikinomics and I found myself thinking very idealistic and silly things.  The more ethnically motivated or simply slanderous edits I find, the more grounded I feel.  The Singapore articles especially seem to be unregulated.  No matter what I write about on Korea, it is edited and simplified very quickly and rigorously... or turned pro-japanese.  Whatever I write about on St. Louis will either be deleted or untouched.  Whatever I write about on Sinapore just gets a bucket of hearsay dumped on it.  By following pre-set models and structures, the articles are systematically led further and further away from reality.  The maps and regions follow planning areas not townships or government defined districts (which do exist!).  There are user-made subway maps for future transit lines whose courses have not yet been decided.  Etc.  The singlish is getting to me too.  To answer your question, "No, i do not intend to live in Singapore forever." :o)  I moved here to be with my girlfriend and will be here for a year or two.  Then I have no idea.  I have a vague plan to live in a different World City every few years.  If the city is big enough, then I can still live almost the same life style.  The top of my list is Cairo, Istanbul, anywhere in japan, New York City, anywhere in China, Mexico City, Vancouver, Chicago, Buenos Aires, you know how it goes.  I always wanted to be an historian or geographer and I'm sort of working myself into a East Asian studies background by force of habit.  I guess I'll probably spend a lot of time in China, Korea, and Japan throughout the rest of my life.
 * Singapore is nice though, lovely trees everywhere. Plenty of construction (you seem to like it) and interesting architecture.  They've been dumping some serious money into the arts recently.  I'm sure it is going to be pretty nice in the next ten years or so.  The day to day activities of the government are sure to rankle most free thinkers though.  DaronDierkes (talk) 00:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and a gu is like a bourough and a dong is like a neighborhood. Though this sister-city business makes it seem more important.  Imagine Brooklyn and Providence being sister cities.  It just doesn't seem right for part of a city to be partnered with a full city.  In reality, I think Brooklyn could be a city in its own right, it does have its own downtown skyline.  So yeah, gu it to bourough as dong is to neighborhood, though the implications are a little different.  DaronDierkes (talk) 01:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The systematic bias is probably deeper than I know. I'm pretty amused by the article for Liancourt Rocks.  I'm so glad there is a western name for it.  Jeez, just split them, there are two islands.  Set up a joint school for diplomatic relations there or something.  You may also be interested in User:Appletrees/Watchlist of Japanese 2channel.
 * That worchester thing is pretty funny actually. You're right, that is a double standard.  though, i will admit that the british one does hold more mental currency with me based on general connotation as I am not from the north east.  Though by population and importance, I guess you are right.  :o)
 * I do indeed hope to live in Dubai one day. I'm currently making some mad money off the Singapore American School, I'm sure the one in Dubai would pay pretty well too.  Miami interests me but not as much as the islands to the south of it. I bet I could get pretty decent airfare from there though.  I'm certainly open to the idea.  though I do long for multiple seasons.  The tropics kind of depress me a bit.  DaronDierkes (talk) 09:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * In the eyes of fish eating cultures, islands are not useless. They come with a lot of fishing rights.  All the same, it does seem like an absurd debate.  :o)
 * I think I'll move somewhere outside of north american though, the temperate zone does extend around the world. :o) DaronDierkes (talk) 10:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Re:List of tallest building in the US
Sorry for the slow reply, I am being attacked by homework, essay, reading spam. I think the US tallest lists could be the next list to bring up to FL-status, since many buildings have articles and it's well-referenced. However, I think the tallest destroyed section may need expansion, since the limit is set to 400 ft. In addition, I don't think structures like the Stratosphere Tower should be included, since they cannot be ranked and there are plenty of tall towers around the US. As for this collaboration, it may actually take a while to bring the list up to FL-status, since I have to deal with midterm and surveying / AutoCAD lab spam.

In addition, we should not forget about the main article Skyscrapers. I think that article should be improved to FA-status in the Featured-topic drive. Right now, that article needs more references and cleanup. I especially don't like the term free-standing skyscrapers in the long history section (needs subdivisions). I think that term creates a lot of confusion on which city has the most skyscrapers in the world, as New York City does have skyscrapers that share a common podium, such as the Time Warner Center and the World Financial Center (towers 2 and 3 are connected by the Winter Garden Atrium). In addition, this makes it hard to verify how many free-standing skyscrapers there are in large-skyline cities. Cheers.  Trance addict - Tiesto - Above and Beyond 22:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Let's just include structures and towers in the list but leave them unranked. That seems like a good compromise. Cheers.  Trance addict - Tiesto - Above and Beyond 03:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Building coordinates
 * Oh, and let's form a taskforce in the Skyscraper WikiProject that adds coordinates to building articles. Google eventually uses these coordinates to add a link to the (building, lake, river, state, city, etc.) article. It will also allow the skyscraper project to reach a wider audience. In addition, I think that will probably increase the number of pageviews on the article and perhaps improve the article. The same taskforce should also check and verify if those coordinates are accurate and precise, as there are some building articles, such as the KoRail Building, that have inaccurate coordiantes. Cheers.  Trance addict - Tiesto - Above and Beyond 05:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Procedure for obtaining building coordinates

First, go to Skyscraperpage.com diagrams and search for the building entry you want. Once there, copy the street address that's provided alongside the rendering of the building. Open Google Earth, (don't have it?), and paste the address onto the search box. Google Earth will then zoom in to that address (you may have to use the city name to get the correct location). Then, mouse over that point (over the building) and look at the bar at the bottom of Google Earth, where the coordinates and elevation are. Copy those coordinates onto the Wiki article (don't move the mouse too much), using Template:coor dms and include N/S or E/W. Once you have saved the page, click on the coordinate link, usually at the upper right, to double-check that these coordinates are correct using Google Maps or Windows live, etc. Cheers.  Trance addict - Tiesto - Above and Beyond 03:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Provided that you entered the correct coordinates, a purple link to the Wikipedia article should appear as soon as Google updates the images and the links (usually once a month - once every two months). Cheers.  Trance addict - Tiesto - Above and Beyond 03:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It appears the only picture suitable for inclusion is the first picture showing what appears to be a power line-crossing of the Saint Lawrence River. As for the ice storm pictures, I'm looking for one that shows a collapsed and buckled tower(s), as seen here. It would probably be redundant to put another picture showing damage to trees as the picture in the ice storm section already does. Cheers.  Trance addict - Tiesto - Above and Beyond 04:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * HQ Power line picture


 * This and this one and here, here are well-suited for inclusion in the pylons section. Cheers.  Trance addict - Tiesto - Above and Beyond 04:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:LOTD
Congratulations! A list you have been involved with was selected a WP:LOTD for May. You may want to add the ListoftheDayheader or ListoftheDaylayout templates somewhere in your userspace. Other template options are at User:TonyTheTiger/List of the Day/templates. Your list will appear as WP:LOTD twice. If you have any date preferences in May let me know by April 25th.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 19:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Jersey City skyscraper image mapping
OK, no probs. Just to clarify:
 * is the Towers of America the bulding with the green square things on top, and the building to the left of it that looks identical but is almost osbcured by that big square one in front of it?
 * What about the building in on the shoreline between Exchange Place and Towers of America?
 * What about the two circular looking buildings to the left of 101 Hudson, and if they should also be mapped, is the building at the bottom of those (looks to be 9 storeys) part of the structure?

Let me know because I might as well get them all at one time. -- ṃ• α• Ł• ṭ• ʰ• Ə• Щ•   @  02:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC) -- ṃ<big style="color:#090">• α<big style="color:#090">• Ł<big style="color:#090">• ṭ<big style="color:#090">• ʰ<big style="color:#090">• Ə<big style="color:#090">• Щ<big style="color:#090">•   @  03:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:LOTM
I believe you may have asked me in recent months what my intentions are on getting this to the main page. I think now the best thing to do is to try to propose this at the time of the LOTY voting in December. I hope everyone who has been involved stays involved and that we get some new people between now and then.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you giving up your perfect record of nominating something each month?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Soleil Center
Hello. I wrote this article a while back and it needs a picture. I noticed your work on List of tallest buildings in Charlotte and was wondering if you could tell me how I can add a picture of a proposed building, without violating WP image policies. In the near future I hope to start an article about the tallest buildings in Raleigh, but I don't know if it's notable quite yet since the city doesn't have as many skyscrapers as Charlotte. Cheers.  APK  yada yada  19:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi, AgnosticPreachersKid. The Soleil Center center article looks great! As for images, it is acceptable for future buildings to use promotional, copyrighted images released by the developer in order to accurately display what the building will look like (of course, when the building is close to completio, these images will need to be deleted, as free images of the same quality can easily be obtained at that point). You can see that for Charlotte's Wachovia Corporate Center, I went to its developer's website, found a copyrighted image, and uploaded it after altering it to a lower resolution in Paint (I know, so high-tech :) ), being sure to mark it with Non-free promotional. I find that using Non-free use rationale is very useful. If you found a copyrighted image that you wish to upload, you can just give me the URL; I would be happy to upload it. I am assuming that, as Soleil Center's completion date is 2009, that the building cannot be accurately portrayed with a free image at this point?
 * Anyway, a List of tallest buildings in Raleigh would be great; the city certainly has enough buildings to accomodate a tallest building list. Cities with skylines as small as that of Providence, Rhode Island have their own tallest buildings lists, after all. Cheers, Rai • me  04:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for your help. After writing the Soleil article I didn't realize the new RBC Centura headquarters that is being built downtown will be the tallest building (as you can see in this picture). I guess I need to update. There are several building scattered throughout Raleigh, so getting pictures of them is going to be difficult, especially since I don't live there anymore. A WikiFriend has taken a few pictures already and is working on the RBC building. To answer your question, the construction of Soleil is in the beginning stages and I don't believe a free image picture would work right now. Here is one image, but it's not from the builder's website. I don't know if that makes a difference?  APK  yada yada  04:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, that image is fine, as it is obviously a promotional photo intending to advertise the building to potential residents and seems to have been originally released by a developer and/or architect. I will upload that image now. Cheers, Rai • me  05:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for uploading the picture. It really helps the article. Cheers!  APK  yada yada  05:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem! I am glad to help. Let me know if you have any questions or need any assistance in the creation of the Raleigh tallest buidlings list. Cheers, Rai • me  06:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Worcester
I've reopened discussion, including your number of hits point.--Loodog (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)