User talk:Randompath213

March 2011
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing because your account is being used only for vandalism. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Favonian (talk) 10:59, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but your "small change" about the number of the pillar of Islam -- why were you doing that? Is there a tradition somewhere that Hajj is third, not fifth? --jpgordon:==( o ) 22:51, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, apparently there is. According to my textbook on Islam, the pillars are numbered, and the hajj is the third pillar. The fifth pillar is zakat, a financial contribution to the community or the state, usually given at the mosque, and is much like tithing is to Christians. Randompath213 (talk) 23:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Tell you what. Provide us with an appropriate verifiable reliable source for that change, and I'll unblock you. Most sources I've seen says the third pillar is zakat, and the fifth is hajj (though I've seen one that swaps the third and the fourth); but I'm not a scholar of Islam, and I'm willing to believe there are other traditions. --jpgordon:==( o ) 23:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Jpjordon, I am a senior in Mechanical Engineering at Oklahoma State University, and I am taking a class called "Islam Cultural Perspective". Our textbook is "The World of Islam: Faith, People, Culture", edited by Bernard Lewis, published by Thames & Hudson. The ISBN is 0-500-27624-2, Library of Congress Number 91-65146. On page 26 it begins the discussion of the five Pillars of Islam. I quote, "Of the body of Islamic observances, five are regarded as central and fundamental. The first of these is the shahada or Testimony, the profession of faith..." The next paragraph starts, "The second of the five pillars of Islam is prayer." (It goes on to talk about the two types of prayer and name them, but that is not important here.) The last paragraph of page 26 starts, "The third pillar of Islam according to the traditional reckoning is pilgrimage - the hajj." In the second column on page 27, second paragraph starts, "The fourth pillar of Islam is fasting.", and goes on to talk about Ramadan, etc. The next paragraph (page 27, second column, third paragraph) starts, "The fifth and last of the five pillars is the zakat, a financial contribution paid by Muslims to the community or the state."

This is the only course I have taken on Islam, so I don't have exposure to other texts, this is all I have seen. I don't disbelieve you at all when you talk about other sources listing them differently, but this is what is in my textbook, so I just thought that whoever wrote that article just forgot which was which. If I knew how to add a reference, I would have done it so that anyone who wonders why I changed the number of the pillar of Islam that the hajj is to number three would be able to find it in the same textbook that I found it in. Randompath213 (talk) 03:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. Since the bulk of the references appear to consider Zakat to be #3 and Hajj to be #5, that's what the article should stick with. But look what I just found:
 * "Some narrations of this hadith have different orderings of the five principles. Some of the narrations have mentioned fasting before performing hajj, while other narrations have mentioned performing hajj before fasting…Mentioning hajj before fasting or vice versa, or alms giving before fasting or vice versa, means that these five principles are like an endless circle. They are all on the same level of importance, and they do not have a specific order,  that permits you to pray and skip fasting.  Or permits you to fast and neglect performing hajj, though you are able to.  Or permits you to perform hajj and escape paying zakat.  This is not the case.  These principles are on the same level of importance.  They are all pillars.  Neglecting these principles is considered a great fracture in religion.  Abandoning these principles leads to a hollow Muslim, making his belief fragile that would collapse any time.  Thus we have to cling to these five principles "
 * In short, your text isn't wrong -- it's just unusual. I'll unblock. In the future, try to be a bit careful about what you say in the edit summaries -- people don't like being referred to as vandals when they aren't, as you've just discovered. --jpgordon:==( o ) 03:39, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Randompath213 (talk) 03:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)