User talk:Rearm21/sandbox

Hello, Rearm21. I have begun my review of your draft. Major issues I noticed are enumerated below.

1. The source you have cited for the claims about Jamias's grandfather, FindAGrave.com, is not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes, because anyone can edit it to say anything. So you still need a source for that set of claims. (You need a reliable source or sources for the claim that Mariano Jamias was a member of the armed forces branch and detachment listed, and the claim that he died on the Bataan Death March, and the claim that he was Elmer Jamias's grandfather. It's possible one source might confirm all four claims; a newspaper article about either man, for example, might suffice... but not an obituary, because those are typically submitted by the family and have no editorial oversight.)

2. A. The Philippine Star article "Elmer Jamias defied Jejomar Binay", which you have cited as a source proving he is a member of the Philippine Guardian Brotherhood, does not mention that brotherhood at all!

2. B. However, that article does state that Jamias is "a member of the Philippine National Police Academy Class of 1986", so it should be cited as the source for that claim.

2. C. I am completely unfamiliar with Philippine politics, but the "standoff" (a more encyclopedic word would be confrontation) between Jamias and Vice President Binay seems like something that should probably be included in the article about Jamias... and you already have a source for it.

3. There is scattered promotional language throughout the draft. Some examples:

3. A. "He belongs to the Philippine National Police Academy class 1986 with an outstanding scholastic record who earned his Master of Business Administration at Wesleyan University Philippines in 2001 and Master's degree in Criminology at Philippine College of Criminology and then found time to finish his PhD in management in 2009 at the International Academy of Management and Economics." (The bolded phrases are overly promotional and should be cut. If he graduated with honors, simply state that... if you have a reliable source.)

3. B. "His expertise and experience in the field of Police Intelligence Operations,Internal security and Community Relations Service were thoroughly honed when he was assigned in the different police offices from North to South Regions of our country such as:" (Again the bolded words are overly promotional. Also, the Philippines should not be referred to as "our country" in a Wikipedia article, as Wikipedia articles are read by people all over the world, not just the Philippines.)

3. C. "Notable Accomplishments and Meritorious Promotions" (No. Jamias's accomplishments should be listed in chronological order under a heading called simply "Career", and each accomplishment should of course be cited to a reliable source. The word "accomplishment" should be avoided, however, unless it's a sourced direct quotation.)

Please note that I have not yet listed every issue that exists with this draft. It also needs some basic copy-editing, for example, but I think that for the most part it will be best to focus on the issues that would prevent your draft from being accepted first. I am watching this page, so I will get an alert when you reply here.

Remember to indent your reply by starting each paragraph with a colon : and to sign your reply with four tildes ~. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 06:43, 10 August 2017 (UTC)


 * good morning grammar fascist i was wondering how this Robert Barbers got approved it doesnt have enough reference
 * Hello, Rearm21. Please remember to sign posts on talk pages with four tildes ~ .


 * I see that the Robert Barbers page was indeed undersourced; I added two sources and many "citation needed" tags, and reworded some inappropriate language from that article. There are many ways that undersourced articles can come to appear on Wikipedia; for example, since a member of any country's parliament or legislature is automatically considered notable, the article could have been created as a stub with only a small amount of information, and the undersourced or unsourced information added later. But please note that just because one article has been allowed to remain on Wikipedia despite problems with it does not mean that other articles are exempt from following Wikipedia's guidelines.


 * I am looking forward to reviewing the changes you have made to this draft. Unfortunately it is now very late here and I am literally falling asleep at the keyboard. I will be back "tomorrow" (your time and mine are not the same, as I am on the east coast of North America) and will give you my feedback then. Remember to sign posts on talk pages with four tildes ~ . — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 08:40, 11 August 2017 (UTC)


 * good afternoon grammar fascist i have already edited the things that you pointed out can you please check it out once again and thank you for your efforts to help me


 * Rearm21, I appreciate the work you put into addressing the issues I listed above. However, while you mostly cleaned up the promotional language, you still did not address point 1 (regarding the statements you sourced to FindAGrave) at all, and the citation to the Philippine Star article is not in the correct place — it should follow directly after the sentence claiming Jamias is a member of the Philippine National Police Academy Class of 1986.


 * To be honest, I think you might be better off starting over and building the article based only on what you can prove (via citations to reliable sources) about Mr. Jamias, rather than starting from what you personally know and trying to find sources for all that information. It would be a smaller article but one capable of passing AfC review and not in danger of being deleted for lack of notability. I can help you set up a new draft if you would like. Remember to sign posts on talk pages with four tildes ~ . — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 01:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * oh my God thank you,please help me with my draft im not a good in doing articles its my first time actually,but im only following my boss order and.Theres like a lot of articles about him on internet but i dont know where to start and how to make it look professional writing.Rearm21 (talk) 03:50, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Paid editing and conflict of interest
Hello again,. Because you say you are "only following [your] boss order", you will need to read and comply with Wikipedia's paid editing policy. I believe the easiest way for you to do this is to create your user page, by clicking your username where it appears in red anywhere on this page, and state your own and your boss's job titles or ranks and that you are contributing to the Elmer Jamias article at his direction. It is essential and urgent that you comply with this policy because if you do not you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia at all.

You should also read and comply with Wikipedia's conflict of interest guidelines, since I suspect that your boss is Elmer Jamias or someone else in Philippine law enforcement. One of the stipulations of the COI guidelines is that someone with a conflict of interest should preferably not edit or create articles themselves, but instead propose changes (and provide reliable sources for those changes!) on the talk page of the article in question. You have already provided some sources in this draft, which I will attempt to use to create an appropriate article consistent with Wikipedia policies. And you can show this page, and the two pages I have linked above, to your boss so that he will understand why you cannot simply write an article full of unsourced information yourself.

I am now going to create that new draft article about Mr. Jamias. This will take some time. In the meantime, please place the disclosure I suggested above on your user page. Thank you. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 04:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Actually im just an Technical Assistant and teaching him about the Information Technology topics and then out of nowhere he wants me to make a wikipedia page about him and what i have put on the page is the draft the he gave to me.am I still considered as a paid editor?.I have already seen the userpage,please look if i did it right.Rearm21 (talk) 05:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Rearm21, if you read the articles I linked above, you will see that for Wikipedia's purposes you are considered a paid editor, and also to have a conflict of interest. Moreover, the draft he wrote is his words, not your own, and should not be used word-for-word here as a result. You may have a tough time explaining to him that Wikipedia discourages autobiographies and does not allow unsourced information on biographies of living persons, but, like the paid editing and conflict of interest rules, those are rules we take quite seriously. It is simply impossible for the draft he wrote to be used as-is here on Wikipedia.


 * I see you have stated his rank on your user page, but not your own rank or job title, and you have not stated that you are editing at his direction. Please do so.


 * DO NOT change your username to his name. That would make matters worse, not better.


 * In better news, I have begun the new draft, which you can find here: Draft:Elmer Jamias. (I am ignorant when it comes to Philippine names; is it offensive for the article title to omit the maternal name?) Please don't be alarmed by how bare-bones it is — as I said, I am starting from scratch and building the article from the sources, rather than trying to find sources for everything in the draft Mr. Jamias wrote. I now have three independent reliable sources cited in the new draft to help establish his notability, but one of them is in Tagalog (I think). I would like for there to be at least one more English-language source to make the case for notability more securely.


 * What you can do to help me flesh out the article is find newspaper, magazine or TV news articles about Mr. Jamias, ideally ones that are online. Thanks in advance for working with me. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 07:33, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * wow thank you very much its really a great help.The draft you made is so great,i cant explain it in words but it looks professional writing.

here are the articles: http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/702184/police-exec-jamias-vp-mocked-my-being-a-cop-pnp-to-file-charges http://news.abs-cbn.com/list/tag/elmer-jamias http://cnnphilippines.com/news/2015/07/04/Jamias-and-selective-justice-praise.html http://ncrpo.pnp.gov.ph/index.php/ncrpo-activities/405-pcsupt-elmer-jamias-district-director-epd-boosting-the-morale-of-deployed-pnp-personnel-and-force-multipliers-at-pasig-city http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news/metro/535382/jamias-believes-he-has-a-strong-case-vs-vp-binay/story/ http://manilastandard.net/2015/07/02/spd-ground-commander-sr-supt-elmer-jamias-says-cops-will-remain-around-makati-city-hall-to-prevent-any-trouble-from-breaking-out-Rearm21 (talk) 08:56, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Article is now live at Elmer Jamias
Hello again,, and thank you for finding those sources for me. I was able to use several of them, as you will see in the article. You will also find that I included some negative information about Mr. Jamias, specifically about two times he was suspended, in keeping with Wikipedia's policy of neutrally reporting on subjects of our articles. Mr. Jamias may not appreciate the inclusion of that information, but please do not remove it; rather, if you consider it inappropriate, start a conversation on the article's talk page, and other editors will build a consensus there as to whether to keep, modify, or remove that information. You should also use the article's talk page to suggest any further additions to the article. I know that a great deal of the information in the draft you were handed is not present in the article, and you (and he) may be wondering why. It is because, as I mentioned before, all information in a biography of a living person must be cited to a reliable source. If I had included other unsourced information, such as the other awards he received, that would have increased the risk of the article being deleted. If you can find newspaper articles documenting other such awards, I will be happy to add those to the article. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 15:50, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Goodafternoon is it still draft?what do you mean when its live.I will talk to my boss about it.Did i do it right in disclosing my information?thank you in advanceRearm21 (talk) 06:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello Rearm21. You did just fine with your disclosure on your user page (and you didn't have to thank me there, but you're welcome — it's nice to have one's work appreciated). When I say the article is "live" I mean that it is at the url en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Jamias instead of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Elmer_Jamias or your sandbox; this means that someone who types "Elmer Jamias" into the search box on any Wikipedia page will now find the article, and also that search engines will now easily find the article. Neither of those things would have happened while the article was still at either a sandbox or a draft url. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 08:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

http://entertainment.inquirer.net/173458/watch-jinggoy-estrada-played-elmer-jamias-in-2000-action-film https://coconuts.co/manila/news/better-letter-biopic-elmer-jamias-shown-2000/ it stated here that he received an award "outstanding manilan award" sorry if im asking too much but please can you expand the details and information in the article so it would be quite long.Rearm21 (talk) 07:00, 13 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the additional links, Rearm21. I will have a look at them tomorrow; it is very late here. I should warn you, though, that unless you can find more sources with information not already in the article, it will not be possible to make the article "quite long." I don't want the article to start to look like a Wikipuffery piece, as that could lead to it being nominated for deletion. Many of the awards and recognition Mr. Jamias has received may not be appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia (the letter of commendation from Mr. Binay, for example) and including them to fluff up the article's length might lead to the article being aggressively trimmed to an even shorter length than it is now. I have seen this happen to other articles. To be frank, Wikipedia does not care what Mr. Jamias wants the article about himself to look like... all Wikipedia cares about are relevant facts that can be cited to reliable sources. You may want to read What Wikipedia is not, particularly the section "Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion". In general, awards listed on a biographical article are expected to be notable themselves. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 08:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Continuing to improve the article
, please DO NOT edit or delete what other people have written on a talk page (although you may edit your own contributions to talk pages). While doing so is not strictly speaking a rule violation, it is strongly frowned-upon... and rude.

In reverting (fixing) your deletions, I unfortunately had to delete the one line you added while deleting several paragraphs. However, I can still answer your questions. First, yes, I believe Elmer Jamias is notable, otherwise I would not have created an article about him. Second, yes, I think it will be appropriate to add some details about the film, and also a fuller description of the confrontation with VP Binay. I actually spent a couple of hours today creating the Outstanding Manilan Award article to establish the notability of that award so that it would be appropriate to list the award among Mr. Jamias's accomplishments in the article about him — if I hadn't, any other editor coming across the Elmer Jamias article could have rightfully deleted mention of the award.

Notability is all-important here on Wikipedia.

I have been and continue to be happy to help you by creating these Wikipedia articles in such a way that they will be acceptable to remain on Wikipedia, but you should remember that like nearly all Wikipedia editors, I am an unpaid volunteer, doing this in my own free time.

P.S. Don't forget to use a : to indent your response, and to sign your response with four tildes ~. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 00:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)


 * im so sorry i wont do it again.is he already searchable in google?can i edit the article i want to add something.Thanks!please let me delete the negative information he wasnt happy about it.It was allegation without proof.There is article about it that he is innocent http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/704384/elmer-jamias-cleared-of-administrative-complaint

can i submit it now to wikipedia and make the page official?Rearm21 (talk) 03:23, 14 August 2017 (UTC)


 * , please stop editing the article directly. As a person with a conflict of interest (please click and read thoroughly) you should not be editing the article about Mr. Jamias, though you are welcome to edit other articles. I will continue making appropriate improvements to the article. However, I will need to remove the list of degrees you added unless and until you can provide a news media source listing any of them; Wikipedia policy prohibits unsourced information on biographies of living persons (please click and read thoroughly). Please work with me so that together we can make a better article that is still acceptable by Wikipedia standards. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 05:30, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
 * sorry i dont know i cant edit the elmer jamias article now i thought it was still draft.but please remove the negative information or reprase it,i did it though.please expand the information about jamias and binay standoff.can we submit the article on wikipedia main page thank you and sorry for mistakes that i have made.can you also include this http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1194941/ where he actor and writer there.Rearm21 (talk) 06:32, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
 * , I removed the allegation that I could not find a source for the outcome of, but left the other and added the information that he had been exonerated — thank you for finding the source confirming his exoneration. I also had to remove thee claim that he was harassed by various allegations and that he was always exonerated, as I am not aware of reliable published sources which say so. Remember that everything in Wikipedia, and especially in biographies of living persons, must be cited to a reliable published source. On that note, I cannot add the information that Mr. Jamias wrote or had an acting role in the film about him, because IMDB is not a reliable source due to the fact that anyone can edit it. Even though I know that information to be true (because I saw the credits of the film) I cannot add it to the article without a reliable source. Similarly, I am not aware of any reliable published source for Mr. Jamias's various degrees, and therefore those cannot be included either.


 * Regarding having this article appear on the Wikipedia main page, there are only two ways that could happen: First, it could be a featured article (click to read about requirements); I can't see this happening, as there is simply not enough information about Mr. Jamias in reliable published sources to justify an article of sufficient length. Second, it could appear in the Did you know section, which requires an interesting fact from the article. Both processes, however, take several months from submission to the article appearing on the main page. Remember that Wikipedia has over 5 million articles, so the odds of any article appearing on the main page are extremely low, and such articles only appear on the main page for a single day in any case. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 03:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * when can i see his name on first page of google?i cant see it yet.anyway thank you very much for your help now my job is done thank you so much im out.Rearm21 (talk) 23:26, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * It was decided last year that new articles would be NOINDEXed until they had been through the new page patrol process. If you look at Special:NewPagesFeed you will see that there is a queue of more than 16 thousand pages awaiting patrol, and a backlog of more than 6 months.  If you are lucky it might be patrolled earlier, but otherwise the NOINDEXing will be removed after 90 days. --David Biddulph (talk) 23:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Rearm21, thank you for working with me to create this article. I'm glad you think it is sufficient as it is, but I would be happy to add to it should you turn up any further reliable sources with additional information. As you can see your last question was answered above: probably 90 days after I told you the article was "live". — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 01:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

History merge?
I believe this draft and associated talk page should be merged with Elmer Jamias, as I copied the infobox and some text from this draft when I created the separate draft I eventually moved to mainspace. (Probably I should have made the request sooner, but it slipped my mind. Oops...) Pinging and  to give me a hand with this; whoever gets here first 'wins'! — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 01:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 11:53, 16 August 2017 (UTC)