User talk:RegentsPark/Archive 21

The Signpost: 21 August 2013

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 * EdwardsBot (talk) 05:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 August 2013

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Might be interesting.
Thanks for reverting the edits of "Yoonadue" that were made inside Shiva. I had a few edit warriors previously, but this person is something harmful. Firstly i had him at the page Hatha Yoga, if you look at the history of edits, he has clearly made it a battle ground. If you go by the edit history of this person, you would find that he may have created this account only for setting the hindu related articles in his own standards. I don't get how he even reached to the article Hinduism, now if you look at it's history, the page was all good, for long period, but since he has started removing it's sourced content, it has also become a battle field. Thanks Bladesmulti (talk) 16:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Also the page Yoga, it has been indefinitely locked from editing, because of this user. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 04 September 2013

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 * EdwardsBot (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 11 September 2013

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Help with infobox language inclusion
Hello RegentsPark, I was wondering if you would be able to voice your opinion at User talk:Neelkamala regarding an issue about official language information inclusion in infoboxes of cities and villages. Thanks, Peroxwhy2gen Talk 17:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * commented. --regentspark (comment) 19:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Swami Vivekananda edit notice
Can you add an editnotice in the article that "Note that section headers of this article are linked to several other articles, so, please do not change the section headers without discussion" or something similar? Actually such links are often linked in DYK hooks too. I can add hidden comments, but, there are too many sections there. -- Tito ☸ Dutta 21:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean? How are they linked (from or to?)? And is there some special edit notice for this sort of thing? --regentspark (comment) 21:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

scatological

 * Hi. Don't jump the gun and think I'm carping at you; I'm just correcting a vocabulary error. In a recent thread, you said: "We don't want to lose that large subset of people who can't resist the use of scatological terms." The word "scatological" means "about poo poo". No one said "shit" or similar; the insults were "cunt" and "fucking muppet". Good luck in all things. &bull; Serviceable&dagger;Villain 21:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * good point. I guess I was getting carried away by my own rhetoric :) --regentspark (comment) 21:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Modi
Please can you let me know when you have finished reinstating tweaks at the Modi article. As things stand, there are a fair few MOS issues etc outstanding. I'll tidy up any that got left out. - Sitush (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure. Go ahead. regentspark (comment) 14:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 18 September 2013

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 * EdwardsBot (talk) 06:31, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Would you ...
... like to bring to bear your fine judgment and considerable experience, in other words, weigh in, at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_September_17? I have already warned editors there I'll be soliciting. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  18:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Commented. But I don't understand categories that well - on Wikipedia as well as in life :) --regentspark (comment) 19:25, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a good one. I'll have to remember that!   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's relatively easier in life... &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  03:29, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that is generally true, however, don't underestimate the editors of RL. While I was away from home, a junior editor of RL decided to examine the contents of Category:Expensive bottles of champagne, decided that it was wrongly placed, and put it in Category:Not so expensive champagne that can be opened.  Soon it was moved to Category: Champagne that needed 7-up to improve taste, and finally to Category:Flat loosely re-corked champagne in back of fridge. There it lay for a few weeks, until an RL admin moved it to: Category:Things poured down the sink.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Hindutashravi
Good old days. :) Abecedare (talk) 14:52, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * that was quick. Does he lurk awaiting? :) --regentspark (comment) 14:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Just noticed that the page had been semi-protected for 18 odd months until just yesterday. Gotta admire his dedication ...and your innocent naivete :) Abecedare (talk) 15:01, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Naive is right. I didn't expect it to last but this was at lightening speed! --regentspark (comment) 21:22, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Application of balm required
I probably should take this to WP:3O but the issue has become so convoluted and is so topic specific that it could sit there for ages. Can you apply some neutral balm to the situation at Talk:Vishwakarma (caste)? Specifically, the ongoing thread regarding claims of Brahmin status. It has a complex background (still visible) involving prior threads that involved other editors, notably. Feel free to tell me to go to 3O or otherwise if you prefer not to get involved. - Sitush (talk) 18:33, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you can wait a bit, I'll take a look. --regentspark (comment) 21:21, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no rush. What is going on is just a distraction from my attempt to expand a poor article. - Sitush (talk) 10:05, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have replied. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 10:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Free reign after RfA
Just an FYI, within 4 days after RfA, the Lua module was changed on 21 September 2013 (dif935) for various issues, but also ignored the growing 75% consensus of nearly 3 weeks (see: WT:CS1) which concluded to re-suppress red-error messages in 60,000 pages (as 5 months ago), but now extending beyond 27 days from the update which revealed the messages by "hidden=false" (dif410) to display thousands of trivial error messages in major articles. I guess the WP:CS1#RfA could be allowed to drag out a full 30 days, until 4 October, and then expect a prompt implementation of the consensus viewpoint. However, the eyesore of the bizarre messages should have been stopped weeks ago (as noted in the RfC). I have already advised, for the general RfA process, when people state, "Oppose" then that means they were not convinced of the claim to need a single-purpose use of the tools, rather than making a hollow, philosophical protest against editing of protected files (as a throw-away !vote). The 'crats need to respect every Oppose (unless frivolous, "Oppose because I missed lunch"). Otherwise, we indeed see new powers used to edit a protected module against consensus, to affect 2.1 million pages. Anyway, in this case it worked quickly to "give 'em enough rope" and see what they do in 4 days. Just FYI. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm not sure I understand all this but I do agree with your broader point about RfA oppose !votes being respected. --regentspark (comment) 21:20, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

RE: Prithviraj Kapoor
Hi. In connection with the above, would you mind taking a quick look at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents? Thanks. -- Trevj (talk) 08:39, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Commented there. Not sure if a block was necessary, but what do I know :) --regentspark (comment) 13:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Commented further. I'm surprised that Saladin's actions were considered disruptive. Am I missing something? --regentspark (comment) 19:33, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Unfortunately, I don't have time to review the sources, particularly as this is a subject area I'm unfamiliar with... so it may take me a little while. -- Trevj (talk) 08:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Take a look when you get the chance. I'll ask Sitush to take a look as well (he's become an expert on the intricacies of caste and ethnicity in India). --regentspark (comment) 12:31, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 25 September 2013

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Recently deleted article
Please clarify the deletion log entry of this film you deleted earlier today. It was created by and editor who as far as I know is only a suspected, not a confirmed, sockpuppet as his last edit was too old to checkuser.

I will admit that my PROD was of mixed motives: While I was genuine in my reasons for the PROD and would have done it for that article even if the editors had been other individuals, I was hoping do "draw out" the editor so that a checkuser could be done. Yes, I was assuming bad faith, so trout me. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  20:54, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * An SPI is unlikely to show anything but the behavioral evidence is strong enough and I don't think there is any bad faith involved here. --regentspark (comment) 21:07, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, I was openly admitting that based on behavior I am assuming that the editor in question is a sock rather than assuming he is editing in good faith. An SPI would've only worked if he edited and happened to do so from a place that one of the other socks edited from very recently.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  22:42, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Pooja Welling
If the author of Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Pooja Welling was evading an active block at the time the page was created on September 12, please delete the page as a G5-deletion. If it wasn't, please add an afc comment right below the afc submission template at the top noting that the primary author is blocked until [whenever - person is not currently blocked, but I assume a sockpuppet block is forthcoming] and that current content does/does not substantially match that of the article deleted back on January 11th. If it does, add a note that it must be completely re-written before submission. If the author is blocked but it's not a G5 deletion, go ahead and leave the article in place, another editor may want to work on it. Thanks. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  18:13, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This person is busy! I don't have the time to look at this in detail but suspect that the sock part is correct. Will take a look later. --regentspark (comment) 18:21, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * G5 deleted per SPI report. --regentspark (comment) 14:55, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-07-13/news-interviews/32663040_1_shiv-sena-film-songs-akshay-bardapurkar reliable source for actor Pooja Welling if u want  some more will provide u  with that as well... plz guide me — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.193.41.232 (talk) 13:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Provided reliable source
Hi,i Have provided u reliable source.... http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-07-13/news-interviews/32663040_1_shiv-sena-film-songs-akshay-bardapurkar in this link there is name of pooja welling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.193.41.232 (talk) 13:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Use the talk page of the film, not the article itself. The source you've provided is not enough in my opinion. In particular, you need to provide evidence for items 1 and 2 in WP:CASTLIST. 1) the prominence of the cast in the film - you need to provide references that assert that she was prominent enough in the film or 2) the amount of real-world context for each cast member or the cast as a whole - you need to provide references that assert that she is prominent independently of the film. Please do this on the article talk page. And, again, I suggest you wait till you have a strong case otherwise you will be reverted as a sock again.--regentspark (comment) 13:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

For your viewing pleasure
Since I know you are a Myanmar fellow-traveler, I thought you might be interested in this first day cover, File:Separation of Burma from British India 1937.jpg, I found in my files while I was looking for the New Delhi inaugural stamps (see Talk:New Delhi). I removed the name from the address, but there it is, proof that Burma did separate in case any Greater India fans are looking to get it back ... Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  02:40, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow! That is something worth treasuring. Do you have the original postcard? Your files must be quite something. --regentspark (comment) 12:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes I do. Well, I don't know about that, but I do have some stuff from British times, including a lot of EIC coins and I have newspapers from Indian independence and Gandhi's death, but those are somewhere in the attic ...  ("Trapdoors to a bottomless past," Naipaul called them.)  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  15:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A crate of beer and a month in your attic is what I need! On an unrelated note, and as an fyi, fareed30 has gone around adding Pathan to the Kapoor progeny - hoping, I assume, that no one will notice. --regentspark (comment) 15:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

ANI
Hello. There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--Fareed30 (talk) 15:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Responded there. --regentspark (comment) 16:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Source request
Hi mate, I am hoping you may be able to get a hold of Parental Investment and Elite Family Structure in Preindustrial States: A Case Study of Late Medieval-Early Modern Portuguese Genealogies for me, there is stuff in there about female infanticide in medieval Europe that I need, the journal and other stuff you may need are American Anthropologist Volume 88, Issue 4, pages 859–878, December 1986 DOI: 10.1525/aa.1986.88.4.02a00050. Cheers. Darkness Shines (talk) 03:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Mailed. --regentspark (comment) 03:39, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent mate, thank you very much. I owe you a beer. Darkness Shines (talk) 03:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

User:Saladin1987
Hi, RegentsPark. I've read the discussion about you and Fareed30, etc., at ANI, although I haven't read it carefully. My sense, though, is that the ethnic stuff has been removed from the articles and there's a consensus among the editors there that it should not be reinserted absent a consensus to do so. That caused me to rethink Saladin's block. Although I still think it was behaviorally justified, I don't like to punish them anymore than they "deserve". The situation is somewhat complicated by the strong decline from.

So with your input and James's input, my proposal would be to unblock Saladin if they agreed to restrict their contributions to the talk pages (or any other dispute resolution forum) and not edit the various articles for the remainder of their block. I've pinged James (if he doesn't respond, I'll go to his talk page). In the meantime, what are your thoughts?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That's ok by me. I don't see this Pathan/not Pathan obsession duality being particularly useful for Wikipedia but perhaps Saladin and Fareed will balance each other out. Of course, what we really need is to topic ban both of them from anything to do with ethnic identities. That would be the perfect solution. --regentspark (comment) 01:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * A topic ban is not something either you or I can do unilaterally. But it's not clear to me whether unblocking Saladin with conditions is something you think we should do or just something you don't object to.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually in this case you can . See WP:GS/Caste for community approved discretionary sanctions in this area and Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan for AE in the broader area. Of course I'm not saying anything about whether you should or need to etc as I'm not familiar with this case, but just pointing out that you are allowed to in the face of disruption. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  02:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not knowledgeable in this area. Does pashtun, which is defined as an "ethnic group", constitute a caste?--Bbb23 (talk) 03:36, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Covered under social groups/tribes -- used in the historical context in this case -- for sure, I created the shortcut as "caste" because that's where the primary disruption lies (at least from what I saw, though I'm sure I was mistaken). As you can see, this has been used to cover Jews and Christians in India (sixth from the bottom) and so on. As Salvio was the one who closed the discussion, we could ask him for clarification if needed. However, the AE one is not clear -- while that page doesn't explicitly mention the issue it's there in the remedies, there was a request for clarification last year resulting in Remedy 5 and this falls perfectly within that with no iota of doubt. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  03:54, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I would support an unblock subject to conditions. Saladin1987 has said "change the articles only when the concensus is acheived, I have already asked somebody to first have a discussion then place the opinions", and if we take that at face value, it should help. I note, however, that that brief comment comes at the end of a long post, the main thrust of which is still combative, and which includes such language as "i am going to report your edits to someone", so unfortunately I have to regard any such unblock as a WP:ROPE unblock, rather than a "Great! Everything's OK now!" unblock. (However, that is not a reason for not unblocking: it is just a reason for being prepared to keep the situation under review after unblocking.)


 * There is no doubt in my mind that discretionary sanctions could be applied in this case: "all pages with content related to social groups" clearly covers it. However, I think that it would be better to first try giving the editor a chance to show that he/she is able and willing to work constructively in talk page discussion, keeping clear of directly editing the articles, while keeping a total topic ban in reserve, to be used only if he/she still can't or won't edit collaboratively. Such a talk page restriction could come either in the form of the editor's agreement or as a "discretionary sanction". Of the two, I would prefer the former if possible, because seeking and receiving the editor's agreement is more likely to foster a collaborative atmosphere than imposing a sanction. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:53, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Discretionary sanctions were imposed for precisely this sort of thing - edit warring over ethnic identities, which is unfortunately endemic in South Asian articles. I agree with James that getting the editor's agreement is probably the way to go, but the sanctions need to be applied on both editors involved. --regentspark (comment) 12:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I appreciate all of the comments, but, being a practical fellow, what are we going to do and who is going to do it?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:49, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm involved, so I can't do nuthin :) The way I see it, ethnic identities are a mess so ban em both from adding or subtracting them. and  are probably the most experienced around on ethnic identities and they are hereby pinged. --regentspark (comment) 00:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm [happily] not involved but I will not be around consistently for the next couple of weeks and therefore will not be able to work with the editors on this rather "fast moving" dispute where any admin action will likely result in a fair bit of queries to address. I think JWB's JBW's suggestion seems best -- if Saladin1987 voluntarily agrees to stay away from this and/or not(word added 06:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)) sock again (on a cursory glance it appeared that there were some issues of socking, if not, my sincere apologies) then they could be unblocked. Also provide them with a . In addition, I would suggest any of the talk pages of articles with this particular dispute be slapped with to inform all editors involved in this dispute about the sanctions. That should allow any admin to act with ease in the future. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  04:10, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There is absolutely no doubt that this falls under GS/Caste. I agree with SpacemanSpiff regarding how to treat Saladin. I'm just a bit concerned that Fareed may be seen to have "got away with it" unless they too are templated (if that has not yet happened). Fareed's behaviour has been almost as disruptive as Saladin's but I guess that you wise folks would argue that their disruption is now historic. - Sitush (talk) 04:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't check Fareed as that wasn't part of the original question, but on looking through currently I guess this is definitely a two sided thing and probably requires a warning there too, if not now at least in the first instance of a repeat. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  06:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Legal journals
Do you happen to have access to legal journals? I'm specifically looking for any reviews of "Eastern Book Company & Ors vs D.B. Modak & Anr" (SCI case 2004-07). I see a lot of stuff on GScholar, but I'm not sure which of these journals/authors are good to use. Alternately, if you have any knowledge about which journals I should search in that'd be good. I'm not sure how coverage of cases from India happens on journals from other countries and so on. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  19:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. But I'm not sure what to look for since I know nothing about the law. --regentspark (comment) 19:39, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't really have an interest in law stuff either (I've only followed copyright cases in India for a while), but this particular case changed the interpretation of the Indian Copyright Act to more closely resemble that in Canada -- a kind of happy medium between common law (English) and civil law (US), especially as far as Threshold of Originality and Sweat of the brow concepts go. I've kinda-sorta used it before to send stuff for deletion on Commons, but I had to use it in response to a question on COM:AN recently and I figured I should write an article about it. It's sort of a very unique thing as in the judgment they use CCH Canadian Ltd. v. Law Society of Upper Canada (from the Supreme Court of Canada) as precedent. So the questions are more like: What law journals are good for Indian cases? Would you have access to those (if they aren't open access)? &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  19:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure I'll have access to any good law journal. But I have no clue which ones are good for anything. If you find something specific and need an article, I can email you a copy - but that's about the limit of my abilities!
 * I'll try to figure that out, our other case articles are mostly based on newspaper refs, so there isn't much by way of help there., do you have any words of wisdom in this case? &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  04:12, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid, I'm clueless in this regard. Sorry.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  04:19, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ditto. Can't name a single journal for Indian law.
 * There are quite a few (seemingly reliable) sources available on Google Books to start off the article, eg this.
 * The case itself is hilarious: Eastern Books published Supreme Court of India judgments and then sued rival/copycat publishers right up to the Supreme Court claiming copyright because it had spent all that effort formatting those judgments for publication. That's chutzpah! Abecedare (talk) 04:44, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * may just have an inkling, although IIRC his own involvement in India-related stuff extended only to a college course on Hindu law. - Sitush (talk) 04:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that case is a really absurd one (especially given that the Copyright Act specifically releases SCI judgments as PD) that resulted in a landmark judgment with longstanding impact. It has been used widely as precedent, including in a really oddball case -- Mattel Inc vs Jayant Agarwalla (Scrabble vs Scrabulous), though I doubt it would survive on appeal as it sort of extended the original to some extremes. Thanks for the gbooks link, at least I now have one that I could use -- there are seemingly endless things on gbooks and gscholar and nothing makes sense to the non-legalese speaking me! wasn't aware that  is a lawyer, will wait for him to comment here or I'll ask him on his TP in a few days. BTW, if any of you fine folks have an opinion on  feel free to comment on the talk page -- I've added some change requests on the talk page. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  06:01, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I can't really be of much help. The last time I encountered the Indian legal system, I was still in law school (I attended the traditional comparative law course, plus another short-lived one about religious laws, during which I had the chance to familiarise myself a bit with Hindu law, among others, but that's as far as my knowledge goes) and, on top of that, I have always tried to stay as far from copyright (and tax, but that's not really material, now) law as humanly possible. I've always hated it... Sorry. Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:52, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No problems, thanks for checking in Salvio. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  13:33, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Barun De
Please, could I request you to make some important changes to Barun De's page. There are some factual errors: 1. Mention his D.Phil. with his other degrees and not under Career; 2. Barun De did not leave Burdwan in 1964, he left the place in 1963; 3. He was the President of the Indian History Congress in 1988 [Dharwad Session] - this should always be mentioned when mentioning the IHC; 4. He was attached to the Indian Embassy at Tashkent as an Indian Chair in the rank of a minister [diplomatic service] & 5. In the booklist, it should be 'Chatra-Samaj' and 'Chatra-Chamaj'. If you were to make these changes I should feel deeply grateful to you. These are factual corrections, which as a historian I feel should be honoured. I have imbibed this fondness for the accuracy of facts from my father, Barun De, on whom the page is written. Bikramjit De — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.140.181.199 (talk) 23:28, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me take a look. We have to go with what reliable sources say so I'll need to look at the sources themselves. BTW, try to edit logged on otherwise people can track your IP address. And remember to sign your talk page posts!--regentspark (comment) 23:30, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, will follow your advice. It's just that I am not so good at handling the computer or the internet, but will remember to do what you are mentioning here. It's just that the facts that I am giving are all correct. With all humility I am saying this, nobody should know as much about my father's life as I do. I closely interacted with him almost all his life. The data that Aniruddha Ray gives is half correct half incorrect. I have said this on the Frontline comments page as well. Bikramjit De — Preceding signed comment added by 170.140.181.199 (talk) 23:28, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem. There are a lot of references so it shouldn't be too hard to verify most facts. We just need to take it slow. Did you find a picture? --regentspark (comment) 00:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Very many thanks for all the edits. These changes should do for a while now. Now, my father's wikipedia page is indeed looking up. This is the page that I started and which you are editing with distinction. If you allow me, I can send you a photograph of his by email attachment. Please, do give me your email, I'll send it there. Alternatively, there are two photos on the google pages, which you could look up. But these are profiles of the man, I can send you full photos. Bikramjit De — Preceding signed comment added by 170.140.181.199 (talk) 23:28, 4 October 2013 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.160.78.22 (talk)
 * I'm afraid I can't give you my email address for privacy reasons. About the images on google pages, they have to be in the public domain or licensed under cc-by-sa 3.0. The ones I can see are copyright restricted so we can't use them. --regentspark (comment) 11:29, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I will then have to find out how to upload the photos myself. Tell me how to license then under cc-by-sa 3.0 on the public domain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.160.78.22 (talk) 14:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

It is actually quite straightforward to upload an image. On the right hand side of this page (you may need to be logged on) you'll see a link to "Toolbox". Expand that and look for "Upload file". Click on that and you get an interactive upload file. I'm assuming you're uploading a picture that you've taken yourself - if yes, then under "Provide source and copyright information" choose "This is a free work" and you'll get the opportunity to later indicate that you've taken the picture yourself and that you release the copyright. Give it a shot. I'll fix it for you if you mess up. But please log on first.--regentspark (comment) 14:16, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't give any photos that I have taken myself. I do have some that I took of my father, but there are much nicer photos taken long time back, which could be shown on wikipedia. I can upload them with your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bikramjit De (talk • contribs) 19:38, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I have now uploaded a photograph of my father, Barun De, on his wikipedia page. Please, make the necessary changes that you feel should be necessary. There's another thing that I would like to point out here. Please, if it could be pointed out to a certain editor of the wikipedia that he need not change any edit that I am making. About an hour back I changed Ph.D. from the University of Oxford to Nuffield College, Oxford. He has reverted it back to "Nuffielf College doesn't award any degrees". If that is so then St. Catherine's College also doesn't award any degrees either. But that has been included by this editor. Back there in Oxford one preferably mentions the college and not the university. So Barun De did his D.Phil., not his Ph.D. from Nuffield College, Oxford, and not necessarily from Oxford University. May I kindly remind him that the person who is being written about is my father, and this can be verified in Oxford University itself, where both he and I studied. If there is anybody who has the legitimacy to write on Barun De, then that is his son, who however is doing so with the help of yourself, a wikipedia editor. — Preceding signed comment added by 170.140.181.199 (talk) 23:28, 4 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bikramjit De (talk • contribs)
 * The picture looks fine. I'm not sure whether there are any licensing issues since it was sent to you rather than taken by you, but we'll let the image experts figure that out. Meanwhile, if the degree is awarded by Oxford rather than a college then that's what we should say. However, there may be another way to express this, let me think about that. I appreciate the fact that you want to write about your father but on Wikiepdia we rely only on reliable sources because that's the only way of ensuring that the material included is verifiable. Sitush is one of the most reliable editors around here, particularly when it comes to sourcing, so you should pay attention to what he says. --regentspark (comment) 22:16, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the change, which is now looking very nice. --User:Bikramjit De (comment) 22:16, 5 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.160.78.22 (talk)
 * Perhaps you could consider uploading Tapan Raychaudhuris other photo, in white kurta and white shawl, which I like more than the one that you have put up. There are people in background who needn't be shown on Raychaudhuri's page. This is of course my view, which is completely subjective.--User:Bikramjit De (User talk:Bikramjit De) 00:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Point me to where the image is. --regentspark (comment) 13:27, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Bikramjit De, I sympathize that you are in mourning, but please understand that there are many academics, much better known than your father or Tapan Raychaudhuri, whose pages are still stubs. Among historians of British India alone, the pages of Christopher Alan Bayly, Judith M. Brown, Eric Stokes, Anthony Low, Thomas R. Metcalf, are still fairly modest, with most space taken up by their bibliographies, not pictures and personal histories. I don't mean to be unkind, but I think these pages are where they should be. Please stop trying to make WP:UNDUE edits. Thanks and best regards, Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:13, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Fowler & fowler: Thanks so much for your comments, views and feelings. You mention quite a few names of some extremely eminent historians. I have the highest regard for all of them. I do believe that they are some of the most well known historians of modern South Asia. I am nobody to suggest if their wikipedia pages should be upgraded from stubs to full fledged pages. I am not a wikipedia editor, I am just a reader who makes occasional changes. RegentsPark very kindly asked me to identify Tapan Raychaudhuri's photograph, which I did. He also asked me if I could provide a photograph of my father, Barun De, which I have. It is entirely up to the wikipedia editors to keep it or delete it, as and when they want to. I then suggested that another nicer photograph of Raychaudhuri could be uploaded replacing the present one, which is quite nice, but the other one is nicer to my eyes. I don't think I am unjustified in making these suggestions. If you feel neither Raychaudhuri nor my father deserve to have their photographs put up on the wikipedia, then that's fine. I'll just take of the one that I have published, and put it back into my private collection of family photographs that my father left me behind with.--User:Bikramjit De (User talk:Bikramjit De) 00:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * RegentsPark: The photograph of Tapan Raychaudhuri that I liked is mostly in white on the google next to the one that you've uploaded. But given the reservations about photos being published on these pages, please feel free not to publish these people's photos on the internet. I can't speak for Raychaudhuri, but my father gave me express orders that he should not be a subject of interest on the internet. He did not have the slightest regard for the electronic media, and upbraided me a few times for opening a page on him or his immediate ancestors. So given the hard feelings of so many editors, I sincerely request the team to seriously consider deleting even a stub on my father, Barun De on the wikipedia, which I had initially opened. If this page had been started by someone else, I wouldn't have insisted so much. But since I was the original author, I think I am justified in claiming a certain amount of legitimacy on the article.--User:Bikramjit De (User talk:Bikramjit De) 00:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't upload that picture because it may be copyrighted. The one I placed in the article is on Wikimedia Commons so that's not a problem. I'm sorry, but we can't delete the Barun De article because it doesn't satisfy any of our deletion criteria. Bear in mind that Indian academics are generally underrepresented on Wikipedia so these articles are useful additions. And, personally, I'm fine with your focus on people you know well. You're also managing the conflict of interest very well (by using talk pages when your edits are challenged) so don't let any critical comments get to you.   --regentspark (comment) 15:22, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for the support. I entirely understand if that photograph I mentioned is copyrighted. Obviously, you are going to put up the one that can be legally published. I don't want a page I had initially opened on my father closed down. I want it to remain on Wikipedia. I want more people to know about him, and take interests in his ideas, ideals and values, all of which will continue to guide me. Yes, I completed agree that South Asia academics are underrepresented on Wikipedia. If the editors want, I can give minimal information, i.e. the little bit that I know about equally meritorious and well known social scientists and lawyers of South Asia, who richly deserve to be represented on the site. This doesn't mean that i don't respect the eminent historians from Great Britain and the USA who are mentioned here. I deeply respect all of them for the pathbreaking books that they wrote and some have left us behind with. May I humbly suggest that the pages on Christopher Alan Bayly, Judith M. Brown, Eric Stokes, D.A. Low, and Thomas R. Metcalf be turned into full fledged Wikipedia pages, because all of them, given their eminence, should have their short biographies published on the Wikipedia. To these few names may I include some more: P.J. Marshall, David A. Washbrook, Gordon Johnson, Wm. Roger Louise and Raj Narayan Chandavarkar. The old pages on Rodney Hilton, Christopher Hill, E.P. Thompson could be expanded and new pages on George Holmes and Wilfrid Knapp could be opened. And finally, I don't know if I am managing the conflict of interest well, but I do appreciate your supportive words.--User:Bikramjit De (User talk:Bikramjit De) 00:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.160.78.22 (talk)

RegentsPark: Please, may I request you to tell me how to remove a photograph that I have uploaded on to Wikipedia. I do want to remove the photograph of my father from the whole of the internet. I know that can be called whimsical, but on afterthought, it's best that we do not put up these photos on the net. If I find a recent photo of my father, that shows him in his old age, then I would be happy to share that with you.Bikramjit De (talk) 15:48, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've deleted it for you. If you could find another picture that you're willing to share - and has clear copyright - then do add one. An image is always a good thing. --regentspark (comment) 15:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Very many thanks, RegentsPark. This was really very helpful and nice of you.Bikramjit De (talk) 16:05, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The entire section entitled "Career" on my father's page needs factual correction. My father taught at Burdwan University as a reader from 1961 to 1963. He joined the Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta in 1963 as an associate professor. Soon after joining the IIMC he became its program director. In 1965 he was appointed as a professor and soon after he became a senior professor of social and economic history there. Between 1969 and 1971 he was a fellow of the Indian Institute of Advanced Studies, Simla. He left the IIMC in 1973 to start the Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, Calcutta where he was the professor of history and director. He remained as the director of the Centre for two terms until 1983 after which he continued to remain as a professor until 1993. In 1993 he became the director of the Maulana Abul Kalam Azad Institute of Asian Studies, Calcutta, where he remained as the director until 1997, when he turned 65. Since he had been initially appointed for a five year term, he remained at the Institute for one more year, i.e. until 1998 as the Maulana Abul Kalam Azad fellow. These dates need to be stated precisely to do justice to history. He was a stickler for facts and dates. He thoroughly disliked the misrepresentation of data. I made these changes recently. They've been reverted. Please, if these dates could be inserted. I don't know where to source them from, but I think I can be a source myself since I am his progeny. All the newspaper articles that are being cited as sources here on this Wikipedia page were written by reporters who talked to me on the telephone.Bikramjit De (talk) 20:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Bikramjit, please take a few minutes and read the introduction this page, which will explain (1) the reason some of your edits may have been reverted, and (2) why wikipedia cannot cite you as a source (even though we may personally believe you). Furthermore:
 * If you want to include a fact or correction to the article and have a published source for it : go ahead and do so (just cite the source)!
 * If you want to include a fact to the article, and there is no known (online or offline secondary) source that can be cited: sorry but that information will have to remain off wikipedia.
 * If there was an error in some newspaper article etc, which is now repeated on wikipedia page: go ahead and remove it from the wikipedia article and drop a note on the article talk page mentioning your reason for doing so.
 * These steps will save you a lot of time and effort, and will prevent the delay and extra work of having to edit the article through intermediaries. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 20:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Abecedare: The sources that have been cited are not giving the information that the page is offering. The page says that Barun De was the director of the Maulana Abul Kalam Azad Institute of Asian Studies, Kolkata]] from 1983-88. That's just plain wrong. No source can ever say that since the institute was founded in 1993. The date of the foundation is to be found in the institute's website. Secondly, yes, Aniruddha Ray's article in the Frontline does say that my father held the directorship of the institute for five years. That's also completely wrong. He held the post for four years. I'll put this up on the Frontline talk page. But I am afraid I have to say this: if I am saying he held the directorship for four years from 1993-97, then that is correct. If this piece of information is not corrected, or if my edits are constantly reverted, then that just shows how unreliable the information on Wikipedia is. How then do the editors of this journal expect to make Wikipedia a world ranking journal? All the other informations that I am giving are correct. I do not know who would challenge it in Calcutta, where my father lived and worked all his life.Bikramjit De (talk) 21:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Just align information in the article with what the sources say Bikramjit. What you personally know does not matter on Wikipedia. If you think about it long enough, you'll realize that information in someone's head that is not backed up by a printed source is, by definition, unreliable. I suggest you just do that (aligning information with what sources say) without posting long explanations elsewhere because that's not going to help. --regentspark (comment) 22:02, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As I suggested to Bikramjit a few days ago on my talk page, if there are evidently numerous factual errors in the Frontline source then we remove it in its entirety, which I have just done because, yes, there are at least three clear differences relating to dates etc between that and other sources. So, we are now back at needing to source statements. This entire farrago is really not helkped by Mr De wandering around umnpteen talk pages and using umpteen different identities. He has been told from the outset that it would be best to deal with all these issues in one central place (Talk:Barun De), that it would be best if he stuck with one monicker and that it would be best if he read our policies etc. We do not do truth here - if it is both verifiable and true then that is a bonus. - Sitush (talk) 22:14, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 02 October 2013

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saraiki language
Dear Saraiki is a language, see inti the matter,182.186.81.200 (talk) 13:46, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 09 October 2013

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You've got mail!
S M S  Talk 17:42, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I don't know much about this but will investigate. --regentspark (comment) 22:35, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Looks likely. Am following up. --regentspark (comment) 16:31, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * All taken care of. Well spotted :) --regentspark (comment) 22:15, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Tamil people
Can you take a look at possibly protecting? There's way too much POV/activism content being inserted. I also noted it on the talk page. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  09:03, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. --regentspark (comment) 11:33, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Dipesh Chakrabarty
I was checking Dipesh Chakrabarty's page. It is completely unsourced. I have put up a lot of citations needed there. For instance he may well be the William Kimpson Professor at Chicago, but this needs sourcing. There are other pieces of information about his career that need to be sourced as well. There is a paragraph long discussion of his books, especially one entitled Provincialising Europe, which need not be here on Wikipedia. Is Wikipedia a book review journal? If so, then shouldn't this paragraph also be sourced?Bikramjit De (talk) 01:21, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. Technically, with the unsourced tag at the top of the article you don't need to explicitly include citation needed tags everywhere. Also, feel free to delete the long discussion of his books or anything else that is uncited. --regentspark (comment) 01:28, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

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Brajendranath De
I have been considering editing my great grandfather, Brajendranath De's page as well. He was eminent in his time, and his book is still used all over the world, but I feel it is best that I take off a lot of material that I put up on the Wikipedia on him lest that is frowned upon. There are other websites where he is discussed, blogs have data on him, and he is remembered. So, with the knowledge of the editors of the Wikipedia, I am now beginning to edit this page too. If that is not acceptable then do let me know. I'll adjust my editing accordingly. But let me say this, the old page on Jyotish Chandra De, IMS, deserves to be brought back, since J.C. De was definitely as eminent as my father, and probably more well known than his father-in-law, Brajendranath De. If you check the official website of the Calcutta Medical College, one of the oldest medical colleges in India, you will find his name there. He was a highly reputed physician of his time.Bikramjit De (talk) 00:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

redlinked user pages
Your remarks on another talk page, made me wonder why so many sockpuppets have nothing on their user pages (i.e. let them remain redlinks). Is there a reason for this? Will writing something make them more vulnerable to detection? I'm perplexed. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  02:26, 18 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think many of the prolific sockers know that some of their individual socks will get caught and blocked eventually. But they don't care since most of the edits made by the socks will nevertheless "stick". For example, do you think anyone went after and systematically undid the edits made by these,  these, these, or these accounts? Unfortunately, mass socking can be an effective technique to shape wikipedia's content to ones POV.
 * Also, making trivial edits to one's user/user-talk pages very early in ones contribution history, are classic signs of socking. So some of these socking experts have probably evolved to not bothering at all. Abecedare (talk) 05:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Socking is successful. I guess socks don't want to waste time with user pages because they do get caught and the more they can change in article space, the more their stuff stays in. --regentspark (comment) 12:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I see. You live and learn.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:01, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Your ping
I saw you pinged me, but I can't figure out what's needed there? Perhaps it's buried in that wall of text somewhere? &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  16:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It is buried :) What we have is an editor who continually insists that his knowledge is more important than reliable sourcing. Sitush, Qwyrxian and I have warned him numerous times but, as the latest give and take shows, the message is not getting across. --regentspark (comment) 16:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Other contributions from the same person include, and . Others who have attempted to keep things on the straight and narrow include  and . The problems have included WP:V, WP:RS, WP:COI, WP:NPOV, WP:IDHT, WP:CIR, WP:POINT ... and many other such acronyms. - Sitush (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This looks rather messy, I'll take a look at it. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  05:09, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

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Jayadeva
Thanks, but I'm not sure that was better, and now it's completely Orissa (thanks in part to a nationalist IP doing the same at other articles. Did you see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics? Dougweller (talk) 06:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw the discussion at WT:IN. It all looks very complicated and there is definitely an Orissa nationalist at work (see the metamorphosis of Rasgulla for example). We need to incorporate Abecedare's reference into the text but I'm having a hard time finding anything on jstor - a lot on his poetry but nothing on his birth. The definitive reference seems to be something by Suniti Kumar Chatterjee but I can't find that online and it is old so it is certainly possible that current thought is different. --regentspark (comment) 12:55, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with the subject area but would note 2, p. 39 of this offer any assistance? - Sitush (talk) 15:39, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I haven't read the concerned wikipedia articles or the Miller book (beyond a para), but my guess is that the book's introductory essay on Jayadeva will be more informative than our article, and should be "picked" for its wealth. I am going to be busy next 8-10 hours, but will try to chip in after that. Aside: Isn't it a pity that so many more hours have been/will be wasted in arguing over which modern Indian state Jayadeva's birthplace falls within compared to those devoted to expanding our coverage of his actual achievements. Abecedare (talk) 15:46, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It is bloody insane. I simply cannot understand why people are so desperate to bask in the reflected glories of members of their region/caste/nation etc. They tend to be slow to accept when the connotations are negative. - Sitush (talk) 15:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So true. On the plus side, I can add Bengali to the list of many ethnicities I've been identified with on Wikipedia :) --regentspark (comment) 16:08, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyone else watching this IP? Dougweller (talk) 16:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

You, lucky you! Who knew editing wikipedia came with such perks?! I would jump at this opportunity. Off to pick fights with Tahiti state officials editing wikipedia... Abecedare (talk) 18:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'd be willing to pay my own way there. Might learn some useful consensus building techniques from the feller! --regentspark (comment) 18:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Maratha
I see that you guys (you and Dougweller) are already ahead of the game at Maratha. This is a good start. One problem I foresee, in such a hornet's nest of an article, is that the veteran POV-warriors will find little references here in there (even in respectable journals) to cite their pet prejudices, or should I say, heritages. I personally think the article should be like Jat people (and in fact, the Marathas, the "non-Muslim Deccani tiller-plainsmen" in Susan Bayly's words, were the Central Indian counterpart of the Jats). Anyway, given that these days, you can find a respectable reference for anything a monkey will type on a typewriter, I was thinking it might be a good idea to use standard texts, even text-book histories) of India, since they are already peer-reviewed for balance. I've just added some standard references for Marathas to that article.  I hope that is OK.  I'll be out of town this coming week, but I'll email you and  and  and  and  (can't think of anyone else this minute) some stuff from Stewart Gordon's book which is a standard reference, but which is skimpily available on Google books.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)