User talk:Renamed user ixgysjijel/Archive8

Image copyrights
Following up your comment from the Main Page talk page: "nobody can claim copyright over reproductions of two-dimensional images unless they claim that they are creating an entirely new work of art" - I know from personal experience that there are some plausible exceptions to this rule. One is where people take old books and scan the photographs. The photographs and books themselves are public domain, but they are very poor quality and the pages may have started to turn brown and degrade. What often happens is that the scanner retouches the scan and (to the best of their ability) repairs and restores the picture to its original condition. This does take time and effort, and, unlike in Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp., the resulting image can be significantly different to the current degraded condition of the object being "copied". This is more restoration than copying. This might sometimes justify a copyright tag.

The other thing is simple courtesy. In most cases, simply crediting the institution (museum or historical picture library) from where the picture was sourced, would help. Often they are just trying to prevent commercial reuse. Having the credit line with the image (rather than a click away - if that) would probably help. Carcharoth 15:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, I was probably guilty of overemphasis there in response to the argument made by the museum itself, repeated many other places on the net, that "we scanned it so we own the image", which is false prima facie. I grant that there are exceptions and caveats, but in cases where the creator of a two-dimensional image has been dead for over 90 years, the assumption has to be that it is public domain, or the utility of public domain breaks down. As far as I remember, neither the museum nor the anonymous contributor on Talk:Main Page were stating that the image had been altered from the original and thus substantially "new" or that it would be nice if there was a credit line, but simply that Wikipedia was somehow legally wrong in using the image.
 * On your second point, Wikipedia is mirrored by commercial sites and, even if somebody wanted to take the image in question and use it in a McDonald's ad, I'm pretty sure that the museum has no legal recourse. (with all the caveats of the paragraph above of course) I believe that all images on Wikipedia without attribution (public domain or not) need to be attributed and sourced, and I am happy if the caption states the source as well, especially if the institution in questions asks us to and it is relevant. It is also worth doing due diligence so that we don't get sued for being careless or unresponsive, even in the Foundation wins in the end. However there is a line between being nice and jumping through non-existent hoops. I do think that Wikipedians need to think through the implications of copyright but am firmly on the side of avoiding copyright paranoia. Cheers and thanks for the note, BanyanTree 16:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Rolling back support on an RfA
Hi, BanyanTree, how are you? I was just curious why you rolled back a support from User:A ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. I realize that all this user is doing is supporting RfAs, but every registered user is allowed to have their voice heard on RfAs. Just like users who oppose every single candidate, burecrats can easily ignore users who support every single candidate just as easily. However, I didn't want to revert your edit without talking to you first. Let me know what you think. E WS23 | (Leave me a message!) 16:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi EWS23, I noticed that user being reverted previously. I see no point in keeping the vote of someone who will be disregarded by the closing 'crat and who is obviously someone familiar with Wikipedia who is just popping in to have some fun at the RFA, but I don't really care. (Are there really accounts that do nothing but vote oppose whose edits aren't reverted?) If you wish to revert and make a note for the closing crat that the user does nothing but make RFA votes, then I wouldn't be fussed. I personally am closer to viewing the behavior as disruption but I'll just leave page maintenance to someone else. Cheers, BanyanTree 16:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. I won't revert it in that case, then. However, I think I'll start a general discussion on WT:RFA about the whole phenomenon, and when/how we should revert comments. To answer your other question, no, I don't know of any accounts that are currently being used solely to oppose nominations, just regular editors who feel the need to oppose nearly every RfA. However, those are certainly two completely different things. Thanks again. E WS23 | (Leave me a message!) 17:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar awarded!

 * Barnstar from kukini moved to User:BanyanTree/Ego - BanyanTree 15:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC) 

Wow, thanks Kukini! I had to chuckle at receiving the barnstar named after RickK as one of my first experiences after being admined was RickK storming onto this page to ream me out for what he felt was an out-of-process undeletion. (I still disagree by the way.) Hopefully, he would approve. I very much appreciate the thought. Happy editing, BanyanTree 15:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Lima, Ohio
Hi BanyanTree, I became aware of the potential issue at Lima, Ohio over IRC today and appreciate your notice on the article's talk page very much. IMO, from what I've seen in my (albeit short) time so far on Wikipedia, it certainly has the potential to become pretty bad come when that "new and improved (possibly replaced)" version is posted; I'm wondering, however, if a talk page note will be noticed that much. Do you think it would be appropriate to be responding to the news article by writing to the Lima News itself? (They have a letters-to-the-editor email address.) TheProject 02:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi theProject (I'm sure there's a story behind the username). Thanks for your note. I have a similar concern that an entirely new entry will be identified as either NPOV, annoy other users who have already contributed, or just require some work because nobody put it in wiki markup. Worse case is that they'll paste over the existing text, be reverted, and then the local press will slam us for ruining their town's collaboration. Of course, they might already have some experienced editors, taken everything into account and it'll all be perfect. The fact that they have students involved gives me some hope that there will be some users with editing experience.


 * Addressing your question, I've written letters to media outlets before, identifying myself as a volunteer editor, when they've got something wrong. The Lima News seems to be an appropriate choice, otherwise the mayor's office as the organizer. (I see that you have a different definition of "short time" than I since your first edit is month before mine.) If you're up for it, a message that directs them to the talk page should suffice. I'm willing to field any questions, though am thinking of asking the folks over at WikiProject Ohio for a hand if necessary, and can always bump it upstairs if there's anything complicated. Cheers, BanyanTree 03:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Evidently we share the same concerns: that's good to hear. Obviously I'm hoping they already have editors with experience on WP, but it would still be wise to prepare for the worst. What worries me most primarily is that most editors with major contributions to the Lima article so far don't appear to have much experience elsewhere on WP. I'm perfectly up to writing a letter (and there's nothing saying we can't both): letters to the Lima News editor are directed to letters at limanews dot com, and the Mayor's email is mayor at cityhall dot lima dot oh dot us. The reporter's email alias (although I think it would be more appropriate to contact the editor rather than the reporter directly) is hrutz. Let me know what you do.


 * As for the other stuff you've pointed out: yes, the nickname has a bit of a history behind it, although I won't go into that now. :-) Also, the time of my first edit means virtually nothing, as over 80% of my edits have been in the last month alone. I have managed to observe WP in the last year or so, though, and it appears to me that something as minor as a simple misunderstanding or lack of awareness of WP policy could turn this into a very bad situation, especially something akin to what you've described. I completely agree with you: best to ensure that everybody knows and understands the appropriate WP policies and guidelines ahead of time, long before the city uploads its finished product in August. And I guess that includes us "seasoned veterans" (though that label applies much more to you than it does to me) to remember WP:BITE, too. Trying hard not to bite the newcomers, TheProject 06:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I've just sent off an email to the article author (didn't read your message through the first time apparently) pointing her to the relevant discussion pages. If you send off one to someone else, hopefully it'll filter to the right people. They are on an August deadline, so I'm willing to wait a bit for a response. Regards, BanyanTree 13:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Banyan Tree and associates. Thanks for your guidance as we (there are 12 of us) posted several new sections in the "Lima, Ohio" article. Please direct us to appropriate Wikipedia guidelines and keep us from embarrassing ourselves. We wish to be well behaved Wikipedia contributors. Thanks. --David S. Adams 00:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Replied at User talk:David S. Adams. - BT 01:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * (And might I just say your response over there was really well done in every way. I only wish my hasty welcome had been a quarter as well thought out. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC))
 * It's not so much "well thought out" as a desperate attempt to avoid the work I should have been doing. Heh. In any case, I appreciate your note. p.s. Why are we whispering? Cheers, - BT 03:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So we don't wake the slumbering residents of Lima, Ohio, of course! :-) &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Move request
Hi BanyanTree - I made a move last week of the article Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom to Princess Beatrice, Princess Henry of Battenberg as I considered the former title to be ambiguous, and hence not suitable for being a primary topic page. However, it seems the move has been met with general disapprobation so please could you move it back, i.e. Princess Beatrice, Princess Henry of Battenberg -> Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom (assuming someone has not already done so by the time you read this). Cheers &mdash; SteveRwanda 13:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi SteveRwanda, Done. There's a spare dab at Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom (disambiguation) that I'll let someone who actually knows something about the topic figure out. Cheers, BanyanTree 13:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Cheers. As far as I know there are only two potential claimants to this title so I've added a simple disambiguation link to Princess Beatrice of York at the top of the Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom article. Incidentally I've added two new Africa related articles recently - Gustav Adolf von Götzen and MV Liemba. I was half wondering if the latter might have potential to become featured if I put some work in, since it has a very interesting history and lots of potential for extra detail to be added to its various different roles over time. &mdash; SteveRwanda 13:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually both of those look quite interesting and have potential. Be sure to start adding footnotes in the cite format now, as it'll be a pain to figure out what sources were used for what later on. A couple comments on MV Liemba: some info on design and build (e.g. was this the standard design or was it unusual) would be helpful and clarifying the various force strengths during WWI (I count three(?) German armed ships). But they're both better than the 90% of the articles already. - BanyanTree 19:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the complements! I'll try and improve the things you mention when I have time - I have a book on the Graf von Götzen ship on order from Amazon, plus a DVD of the African Queen so can hopefully do more with those. Re citations, I asked a question on the Help Desk yesterday about what to do if multiple bits of the article come from the same source (as is the case at Rusumo Falls). If you could answer it (at WP:HD) that would be quite helpful for me. Cheers! &mdash; SteveRwanda 17:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Africa Award & Barnstar of National Merit
I liked your "ooohh.... must... be ... civil" edit summary. I actually wrote something uncivilish in reply, but caught myself before I hit the "Save" button :) --Ezeu 19:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ha! That was my second try at a response. Thank goodness for "Preview" so I had to chance to reword. - BanyanTree 19:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Masindi District
Please explain? Dweller 20:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, that's what I get for reverting before explaining on the talk. Sorry. Please see Talk:Masindi District. - BanyanTree 20:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Great, let's talk there. Feel free to delete this from your talk page. Dweller 20:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Chernobyl displaced
Hi! I've noticed you remove an anon' inclusion of Chernobyl displaced persons to the Internally displaced person article. This move of yours highlight the problem of the definition of IDP and refugees. If Chernobyl's refugees do not qualify as IDP, they surely do qualify as refugees! So their case should be listed somewhere... You can't just remove it, you should move it somewhere else. If it's not IDP, then it's either displaced persons or refugee. Again, the problem of the "displaced persons" article is that it is both a fork, a stub, a technical term, and may even be seen as a weasel word (or, if you prefer, one more bureaucratic euphemism). Thus, this Chernobyl example should probably be included in the "refugee" article, which doesn't seems to have real reason for taking the "international juridical" definition as basis of it (Wikipedia is a general public encyclopedia, not a judicial treaty for lawyers). Lapaz 15:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree. You are now arguing for the collapse of all definitions into refugee, which is an argument for no structure at all. The Chernobyl displaced can be categorized to the top level of the hierarchy at displaced person, though the fall under the "displaced due to natural or man-made disasters" sentence. I probably should have moved them, rather than removed them from the article into which they were misplaced. When you read a news article about "UNHCR says number of refugees decreases by 5%" or "Australia tightens refugee policy", they are referring to the legal definition. This is not some definition used only by ivory castle academics - it is the definition by which international aid, asylum policies and UN agencies are set up. - BanyanTree 16:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

desysop request
I confirm the request to be de-sysoped that I made on Meta. Thanks, BanyanTree 22:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi BanyanTree. Why are you de-sysoping? Leaving the project, or just want to spend more time writing articles rather than doing admin tasks? I'll have to find a new admin to undo my silly moves in the future then! [[Image:Shocked-tpvgames.gif]] &mdash; SteveRwanda 10:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I am also concerned - hope you have not hit burnout. Wizzy&hellip; &#9742;   13:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ditto. --Ezeu 13:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Congratulation for your decision to be de-sysoped. Tortor 13:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you. I've been thinking about it for several months as my real life has left me less and less time. I had gotten into circular thinking where I had to stay an admin to defend my watchlist and needed to watch those pages because it seems like I'm one of the few admins interested. I finally reached the point yesterday of hitting the clear watchlist link and requesting to be desysoped. So yeah, part burnout, but I hope there was enough thought put into it that I won't go crawling back to RFA in three months (not that I think I could get through it these days given the number of sarcastic and ill-thought out edits in my history). My edit rate will certainly drop since I won't be doing all that rollback and warning but, hopefully, you'll see me pop up making quality contributions rather than the schlock knob-twiddling I've been doing for months. Best, BanyanTree 15:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's what I hope. Have a good time, here or in whatever you're doing in real life. Very best wishes, &mdash; mark &#9998; 20:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * As long as you stick around, no worries. --Ezeu 10:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello, BanyanTree. Burnout ? Well, take it easy, my friend. I have similar feelings re: my watchlist. Just wanna remind you that you shouldn't feel obligated to perform janitorial duties when you are busy contributing, and that the "power to delete" may be useful when you are seriously contributing (e.g. when it comes to moving pages.) It's up to you, but I suggest that you reconsider desysopping yourself. I'm taking June off (so hard to stay away, though....). See you around when I get back. Take care. -- PFHLai 22:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello
Smile2 given by Bhadani 16:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC) removed
 * Hi Bhadani, I appreciate that you have good intentions but feel pretty strongly that this template is the wiki equivalent of a chain letter. I always appreciate a user informing me when they think I am making good edits, but an impersonalized template is not the same. - BT 16:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Ethiopia
I have recently created a wikiproject for all things related to Ethiopia, and I thought you might be interested. Drop by and contribute when you can (I saw that you're going to be contributing less nowadays)! ዮም  (Yom)  |  contribs  •  Talk  04:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Yom, Thanks for the note. I actually think I'm more productive now than I've been in months - about six new stubs in the past couple days now that I don't spend all my time checking new edits. I actually do not have significant knowledge of Ethiopia, despite a brief visit and previously watching a bunch of Ethiopia articles for vandalism, but will be sure to check out the new WikiProject. Cheers, BT 04:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

User:KI
Hi Banyan. I've never been in this condition, so maybe this question may appear a bit weird to you, but since its importance, I felt I had at least to try. One of our best Africa-related editors, User:KI, has got for violation of civility his first block, of 24h, made by User:Kelly Martin. Now I understand this; KI has a fiery temper and when treated rudely may react accordingly. What I find utterly unjustifiable is that User:Sasquatch a few minutes later decided it was too little and lengthened his punishment to three months; what seems to me a clear overkill for the first offence, and an abuse of admin. powers. Consider also please that we're speaking of an editor whose dedication to wikipedia is fantastic; he's the original creator of WikiProject Chad, and the main authour of the fantastic article Chadian-Sudanese conflict, which has obtained "good article" status. Please give a look at KI's [|block log] and consider if it is possible to return to User:Kelly Martin's originary judgement, or simply a judgement that while harsher than Kelly's is at least reasonable, and won't lose wikipedia one of its best editors. If you don't what to treat the thing yourself, as you feel you have little knowledge of block proceedings, please bring it to the attention to an admin who is active in this field; simply as a way to be certain that user Sasquatch has not abused of his powers, or simply given, as I believe, a block far too harsh. Excuse me for making such a request, but I felt the question was too important for me to remain silent. Obviously, if you prefer not to remain involved in anyway in such a problematic situation, I while obviously undrstand. Ciao--Aldux 23:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Aldux, I am no longer an admin, so cannot take any direct action and would probably refrain from getting into an wheel war in any case. I am actively trying to avoid looking at block logs and such but quickly reviewed the situation. Special:Contributions/KI is enough to make any admin (or former admin) get hot under the collar. I can certainly think of better ways to approach a disagreement than cussing out a bunch of admins and then spreading it to WP:AN. According to Administrators' noticeboard, he claims to be a sockpuppet on Jimbo's talk page, and Sasquatch states that he has also claimed to be User:Freestylefrappe. This edit is interesting. See Requests for arbitration/Freestylefrappe. It doesn't appear to be a run-of-the-mill block at all. Per Sasquatch's explanation on your talk, a calm request from KI would probably result in a major reduction in the block time. If he is not willing to bend that far, then he always has the three month wait option. I will not take any action but, if the situation changes, feel free to drop me another line. - BT 03:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi again, I've had some time to let this stew and thought I would offer some thoughts. If KI is FSP, as seems likely, then as a former admin he knows exactly how far he can push things before drawing a block and he thus knew he was trolling for a block by attacking admins on their talk pages and at AN. I thus have little sympathy as he does not have the excuse of ignorance. While I personally may have chosen a different span of time, admins are given substantial discretion in determining the appropriate response and Sasquatch's approach of a long block while informing KI that it would be reduced if he sent a request is not outside the realm of possibly appropriate responses, in my opinion. - BT 15:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I respect your view Banyan, and I'm really grateful for the time you've taken in awnsering and considering my concerns. I know that FSP/KI has a difficult character, but I've always felt that WP's main problem was POV-pushing not some occasional rudeness; especially when, like me, you pass a lot of time editing Balkan-related articles, where hate-speech and personal attacks abund, and POV-pushing is the rule, and the admins don't seem to do much :-( Now that I've passed my self-pitying moment ;-), thanks again for listening me; bye, and have care.--Aldux 15:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

not a rubberstamp
Although it's regrettable that you've decided to no longer be an admin, I'm relieved to see that you've chosen to remain with the project, making edits. Because you are a damn good editor. DS 01:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I appreciate you taking the time to drop me a note. Cheers, BT 03:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

rv removal
you reverted my removal. that "removal" was me removing something i typed by mistake. you shouldn't have reverted anything in the first place since i have removed the mistake i typed. 194.46.251.136 12:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that you typed over half of the discussions on Talk:Main Page? Because this is what you removed. At first I thought it had been archived, but realized that only the oldest posts had been left. Please use the "Preview" button when editing to avoid similar mistakes. - BT 13:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Maraba Coffee
Thanks for the DYK nomination, BT. I would have added it myself eventually, but it's always nice to get it done by someone else! What do you think of the article? I've done my best to provide references for everything this time, hopefully from reasonably authoratative sources. &mdash; SteveRwanda 09:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you should put it up at peer review and see if anyone spots any issues before taking it to FAC. A photo of coffee being picked would be nice, if you have it. - BT 12:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not at the moment, sadly - and I don't know if I can make another trip down there before the harvest ends as it's quite far... I might be able to find a similar pic closer to Kigali though. I'll probably start the peer review in a couple of weeks as I'm off on holiday tomorrow - my brother's coming and we're going to Entebbe, Kampala and Kisoro (plus locations in between on the coach). I might try to get some new pics from those places, so if there's anything you're interested in there let me know... &mdash; SteveRwanda 12:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ooh... jealous. I have a craving for posho with tilapia and peas in greasy sauce with greens and passionfruit juice from a marketstall followed by a night out drinking Nile Special while listening to a mix of soukous, Egyptian pop, dancehall and Western R&B, but I doubt you could send that. :( For the wiki, photos are always nice. I've been thinking that a couple transportation photos, of the taxi parks in particular, would be useful. I think you would arrive in new park from Kisoro, if things are still the same but the first view from the ridge over neighboring old park was one of those "Omigod, I'm in a foreign country" moments. - BT 13:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

CfD regarding cities and towns in Uganda
Hello BT, you may be interested in the CfD regarding Category:Cities in Uganda and Category:Towns in Uganda that I have suggested. See here. I reckon Category:Cities and towns in Uganda is fine. I did not dare to unilaterally delete them, so I took it to CfD just in case there are objections. --Ezeu 17:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I've added my support. Cheers, BT 17:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * At the risk of sounding like a "me-tooer", erm, me too. Dweller 20:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

On your fourth archive
Can you please replace instances of with  on your fourth archive? My bot was not capable of doing it, since your archive is protected from editing. Thank you! — THIS IS M ESSED OCKER  (TALK) 01:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, I forgot to mention here that I got some assistance from a helpful admin and this has been fixed. - BT 23:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

new to Wikipedia, medical rare disease article mentors needed
Hi Banyan Tree,

You wrote to me when I first joined Wikipedia in Dec. 2005, and I am just now (June 2006) getting around to thinking about the article for my chosen subject matter, a rare disease called biliary atresia.

I've posed a bunch of questions on the talk page of the article, and would much rather spend my clearly limited time thinking about article content than Wikipedia policies and style - could you point me to perhaps a team of rare disease article mentors? Ones who are preferably quite familiar with Wikipedia protocol etc. And nice?!

Clearly I can't remember Wikipedia editing syntax/protocol/etc. from one instance to another (for example, I don't remember how to link to my user name, sorry) but have a lot of knowledge in my subject area to contribute. I just need a little editing help...

Many thanks :)

- Aunt Amanda —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aunt Amanda (talk • contribs)


 * Hi Aunt Amanda, I was actually thinking about you a couple months back and wondering how you were getting along. First things first, you sign by typing four tildes ( ~ ). For other syntax, there another user left a welcome message with the most useful links for newcomers on your talk page (User talk:Aunt Amanda). I would strongly recommend working your way through the Tutorial for basic syntax so you know how to make headers and do basic formatting that are difficult for other users to realize are intended even if they want to help and read the Five Pillars to get a sense of where the red lines are.


 * Otherwise, you are probably the content expert on this particular disease for Wikipedia, so I would recommend following the key guideline of Be bold and start editing. Organize it in the way that you feel would be logical for the typical reader of the article; articles are not bound into cookie cutter outlines. You can't permanently mess up an article since all revisions are saved and most Wikipedians don't bite. I've asked a user with some relevant experience for some help. And after an edit conflict see that he has posted below.


 * Addressing some of the questions you asked, I've added the article to Category:Rare diseases, and noticed that there is actually an article rare disease. I would discourage adding large numbers of particular types of external links, if I understand the question about medical centers correctly. Note that using footnotes are a nice way of grounding your statements and adding sources that readers may be interested in, but it requires a bit of fiddling with before you get the hang of it. OK, I'm off to bed but please ask questions as they arise. - BT 05:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Banyan Tree, sounds like Aunt Amanda is very keen on contributing to Biliary atresia. Wish there was something like a rare disease mentor! JFW, Steve Holland and myself are the ones here with some biliary expertise. I'll post something on her talk page and will keep an eye out for wikifying her additions. Take care -- Samir धर्म 05:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Samir, thanks for your help. - BT 05:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Billy Bowlegs: Civil War section
BT, per your request, I have added a section on Billy Bowlegs' service in the Union army during the American Civil War. Hopefully this fulfills your request. If I can be of further service, please let me know! Scott Mingus 23:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. That's exactly what I was hoping for. Cheers, BT 02:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Added a little more detail, including a hard reference to his slave ownership. Take care! Scott Mingus 12:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you once again. Best, BT 13:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

RfA
Thanks, I accept your offer, and I'm really grateful for your gentleness and consideration in proposing me. As for the fact you've voluntarily desysopped, I don't see any problem, especially since your value as an editor is well known (really! ).--Aldux 14:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair dinkum. I will throw in a co-nom for Aldux. I'm a bit absent-minded so let me know when. --Ezeu 04:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, assuming that Aldux is OK with that. I'm trying to get a chunk of time to review Aldux's edit history and draft the nom. - BT 11:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem to me, I'm happy to hear Ezeu has offered to co-nom me :-) Only, could you wait some time before drafting the nomination? Before June 30 I'm a bit occupied with real-life problems, so if you could wait till then I would be grateful. Bye, --Aldux 13:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The nom doesn't "go active" until you accept and transclude it to WP:RFA, but I'll happily take my time. ;) - BT 13:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the hard work BT; I understand your concerns regarding edit summaries, I can only say that the great majority of my blank edit summaries are concentrated on articles that have extremely few edits, and generally have been started by me; but I'll try to be more diligent. What really surprised me was this : do you think I've been rude? I can't even say I was exasperated, as it was meant to be a joke; my friend, the editor who first inserted the piece, has a much worst opinion of it than me.--Aldux 11:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I missed the joking nature of it, though I admittedly had about five tabs open to scan your edit history. I'm moderately sure that someone will point out that edit summary out as an example of incivility as it is so recent, so be sure to explain the context when they do. Since most of the voters will have never interacted with you before, most will be making decisions over only a couple of diffs and glancing over your talk. All it takes is a voter saying, "Look at the edit summaries for diff1 and diff1. I am greatly concerned that this user, despite his many good contributions, doesn't have the temperament we would want in an admin," and the next thing you know people who haven't even examined the diffs are adding opposes. Can you tell that I've been RFA watching for way too long? The way you've responded to my concerns here is pretty much the approach you should take for the RFA. Cheers, BT 12:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. Ezeu has finished his co-nom, so it's all you. Good luck! BT 12:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to thank you for the effort you've taken in forming my nomination, even if I bet you were a bit shocked when you saw my Balkan edits, with all the hot disputes and even some edit-warring. ;-) Anyways, I DO believe you wrote a great nomination. Ciao,--Aldux 16:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Aldux, I never had any doubt that you were admin-ready. I was concerned that a mob of users whose edits you had NPOVed was waiting in the wings, as I've certainly seen it before in an RFA. The fact that so many users had so many nice things to say from across the spectrum of your editing speaks very highly to your ability to handle those disputes. Best of luck with the shiny new buttons! BT 18:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

potential edit war
i'm going to attempt to remove the original research image posted by the suspected sock puppet on this page. mark originally picked up the gauntlet on this one but he has gone on wikibreak; he initially elected to merely put up the "uncited source tag", but it seems like a fairly safe bet that a legitimate source is not forthcoming. please advise (i apologize for the bother, i know few admins to which i can defer such a situation). --gozar 22:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Gozar, I'm afraid that I've become a wiki-ascetic since our last conversation and desysopped myself, so cannot take any direct action. What I have done is list the image over at WP:IFD as OR and copyvio and commented out the image for the five-day wait. Assuming that the process results in a deletion, uploads of the same or similar images may be speedy deleted as repostings of previously deleted material. If the sock gets into a revert war, I've started it so if you make three reverts then they will have to make four and you can list them at WP:AN/3RR and hopefully an admin will realize what is going on, assuming that you spell out the sockpuppetry. This is silly but, if there's no resident admin for the second most populous nation in sub-Saharan Africa, then sheer process-wonkery may be the only option. I'm afraid that you'll have to handle the text dispute the hard way... Cheers, BT 23:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Struck out incorrect "second" after a moment of epiphany. - 14:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You could ask for assistance from WP:AFR. It's possible to get quite a few users parachuting into a controversy depending on the type and subject. - BT 23:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
For the detailed review of Maraba Coffee. I'll try and address all the points you raised in the next few days (2006 FIFA World Cup permitting!) &mdash; SteveRwanda 15:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Tip of the day project update
Just trying to get things better organized around there. Toward that end, I've created a task list template for the project. If all the members of the project placed it on their user page, we could all keep in touch more easily (with announcements, alerts, etc.). It, and the latest announcements can be found at:

totd task list template

--Go for it! 17:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

giorgioparlante
sorry I am a member of the comuity of Sant'egidio, so if you think to write what what you like please delete the sant'egidio voice otherwise keep the page like I did (my last time) giorgio —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giorgioparlante (talk • contribs)
 * Hi Giorgio, I understand that you would like to keep your longer version of Community of Sant'Egidio. However as I noted previously on your talk and Talk:Community of Sant'Egidio, the text you are adding is directly copied from the Sant'Egidio website and is thus a copyright violation unless those pages explicitly release the copyright to the text under a GFDL-compatible license. Wikipedia cannot host materials such as you pasted.
 * You are welcome to improve the article as long as you avoid copying materials or violating one of the policies as described in the welcome message I left on your talk. I see that you have been warned and blocked after continuing to either re-add your copied text or blank the article. Please understand that I am not trying to impose my version on the article, especially as I am only a minor contributor to that article, but repeated attempts to change the article in violation of Wikipedia articles can and will be reverted by any member of the community. Feel free to contact me again if you have any questions. - BT 04:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Article for deletion: Gnaa, Nigeria
The article Gnaa, Nigeria has just entered its 3rd AfD. There's been considerable debate in the past as to:
 * 1) Does such a place even exist?
 * 2) If a place does exist with that name, is it notable?
 * 3) Is this all a hoax perpetrated by the other GNAA, the Gay Niggers Association of America; they issue press releases datelined Gnaa, Nigeria.

I understand you have edited Africa articles extensively -- if you get the chance, can you maybe take a look and render an opinion pro or con? Thanks, --A. B. 00:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi A. B., I have added my vote. As far as I can tell, every locality is considered notable, until one starts getting down into individual neighborhoods and structures, so I was a little surprised that this was even a question. - BT 17:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Great work on Darfur conflict
Thank you for your hard work on this article.Hypnosadist 15:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your thanks. That's the problem with actually reading some books on the conflict - I got so frustrated with the state of the article that I had to edit. :) - BT 19:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Save Darfur Coalition
Thanks for your help with the SDC page. It was my first. Bpreilly
 * And a fine page it is too. But I'm afraid that our only previous interaction was on the Darfur article. I've recently broken out an International response to the Darfur conflict page which is highly disorganized and that you might be interested in taking a hand in... Happy editing, BT 22:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
Thanks for following this up with Wallie. You beat me to it! Nunquam Dormio 18:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No worries. I'm hoping that Wallie has a source, so we aren't the originators. - BT 18:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi. I remember it being mentioned around the time of the first Gulf War, 1991 I think, that Elisabeth Schwarzkopf was the aunt of Norman Schwarzkopf. I have just looked around for a source, and haven't come up with one yet. If I am mistaken, and she is not his aunt, I can only say that I put this information on Wikipedia, as I genuinely believed it to be true. I would never try to mislead anyone. I treat placing any information on Wikipedia very seriously. Given what has happened here, I would take even greater care. I am surprised newspapers seem to copy each other. I would have thought that when someone famous dies, they at least interview/check facts with friends and relatives. Lastly, I am very sad to hear that this fine lady has passed away. Wallie 01:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Wallie, I thought you had probably seen it somewhere as you aren't one of those anonymous ne'er do wells. ;) I wish I was surprised at sloppy fact checking by newspapers but, after cross-checking sources for quite a few Wikipedia articles, I have found some appalling inconsistencies in both published books and reports by prestigious news sources. Please put a citation if you find it, then at least we can point to it as a ref and note that it appears to be untrue. Cheers and thanks for your note, BT 03:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Baggara
Hi BT, I was asking myself, souldn't we rename Baggara Shuwa Arabs? It some times that I have doubts on the name, as at least in work on Chad, journals and books included, the Arabic-speaking nomads are simply called Arabs. But since you've become are Darfur expert ;-), I wanted to hear your opinion. Ciao,--Aldux 19:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Aldux! I don't quite know how this happened; one minute I was reading a few books on Darfur and the next minute I've basically messed up all the related Wikipedia articles. ;)
 * In the three books specific to Darfur that I've been using, I have never come across the term Shuwa Arab. A Google test shows 44K for Baggara and 779 for "Shuwa Arab" and 11K for Shuwa Arab, without quotation marks. The Shuwa results seem to lean heavily towards Cameroon and Chad, which suggests that it is, for some reason that I'm sure is quite interesting, used for the western kin. I'm sure the Baggara count is inflated by all the news reports on the conflict. Still, given the relative Google results, I would stick Baggara. The problem with "Arab" in Sudan is that there is a clear difference between the Arabs of the Nile Valley and their poorer cousins along the periphery, which is why I'm being so pedantic over at Darfur conflict about the role of outside ideologies in changing local perceptions of group identity.
 * Also, I included an origin in the Darfur conflict that I haven't added to Baggara: While Arabs in the north continued to herd camels, those who ventured south where there was comparatively abundant rainfall mixed with a later migration of Fula speakers and began to herd cattle, forming the Baggara. I have a citation for it, but frankly am a bit leery of the comprehensiveness of this description. I don't suppose you have any supporting evidence? It's times like this that we really need a Sahelian anthropologist on the wiki. Cheers, BT 20:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the time you've taken in awnsering; probably arabs is often used in Chad for nomads because there isn't so much a need to distinguish them from "classic" Arabs, differently from Darfur. So you're right, lets keep Baggara.
 * As for "I don't quite know how this happened", regarding your becoming our Darfur expert, nobody understands you better than me; I would never immagine taking all this interest in Chad, a country that I hardly knew existed last year!

Ciao,--Aldux 22:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

generic reply!
yes i am sure it's on the way to FA status like the LRA article, and hopefully the good article nom will be confirmed. im actually fairly uninformed on the entire conflict but i have a decent overview. what books would you particularly recommend on the topic? (i noted you claimed to have read books on Darfur at some point, though i cant recall where) also i'm at the smashbuckling adventure that is Wikimania 2006 (typing this from some Harvard free-use computer, no less). I've encountered a guru from the Swahili Wikipedia who certainly appears to be one of those spearheading that version's progress; give me some thoughtful questions I can ask him! (he spent most of his life in Tanzania and is a Chaga-speaker to give you context)--gozar 20:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it true that Wikimania is all disco dancing and mud wrestling?
 * As for Darfur, the two books that are most relevant are listed as refs at Darfur conflict, though they differ substantially. For the first, de Waals is an anthropologist who spent a few years wandering through Darfur during the famine of the mid-80s, though it appears that it was lead-written by Flint, who apparently was HRW's researcher for Sudan. The tone is very close to the ground and the narrative is largely personality driven, and I was put off by some of the stridency. Prunier is a French academic who made his name writing one of the better accounts of the Rwandan Genocide and takes a political science approach of power structures and manipulation by elites, and manages to give a pretty good account of the 1990s, which Flint and de Waal basically gloss over. Prunier is definitely a French academic in some of his tone and observations. Both are decent, but I found Prunier to be a more comprehensive account of structures and trends, if you're looking for only one book. Both of these books make a point of praising the reports on Darfur by the International Crisis Group for their analytical depth. Prunier in particular is withering in his criticism of the quality of most media coverage.
 * I don't know if you caught a couple of my rants about GA, though I've calmed down a bit since then. I wonder where all these people willing to give feedback are when it comes to PR, or that the 'recommendations' I've seen are basically repetition of the FA criteria. So I'm not a huge fan and it makes little difference to me whether someone sticks a non-FA label on the talk page, besides that it requires more scrolling to move past the template clutter. I assume that people besides me are motivated by the GA label, so I've stopped railing against it on article talk pages. Personally I think Darfur conflict remains severely lacking, e.g. lack of an account of the 1990s and from about 2004 to current, as well as a very loose section on casualties. I'm probably as well positioned as anyone to push the article forward, but it would require me to forget that I'm naturally very lazy. :)
 * I would be interested to hear whether Swahili has a problem in deciding how complex to make their writing. Many Swahili speakers do not have it as a native language. Is Swahili Wikipedia written for a native speaker, or does it take into account the many Africans who have a limited vocabulary? And do they pull writers only from where it is native or a state language, or from various Bantu language-speaking areas?
 * OK, I've ranted and raved enough. Talk to you later, BT 23:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I finished reading Prunier's book last night, very well-done. I am now filled with shame over my previous ignorance in regards to the topic, my perceptions were fairly incoherent. Not surprisingly Prunier is cited quite extensively in the Darfur conflict article. The reaction to the potential UN deployment has been pretty gruesome by the GoS but not really surprising; what do you suppose the motivation is here: positioning the army to fight a possible UN force seems unlikely (i would imagine the GoS wants to avoid direct engagement with the UN); the more frightening alternative I've considered is that the GoS is expanding its attacks on the civilians (on the pre-text of punishing for/enforcing non-signers of the peace agreement) in order to ensure their complete fracturing and incoherence in national politics (which has been the policy to since the beginning, but clearly expansion is occuring). Obviously the UN would attempt to re-habilitate and empower the victims when/if an intervention occurs, such a policy would make those efforts more difficult. what are your thoughts on the likelihood of direct intervention actually occuring and, whether or not it would be a positive or a negative at the current juncture?--gozar 18:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's an amazing amount of history about which I didn't have a clue. I added all those Prunier references, as well as the de Waal and Flint book, to Darfur conflict and been working on the Bibliography page so people can get to high-quality sources.
 * Though there is clearly an element of divide and conquer, I tend to see it from the perspective of the government and UN. Speaking completely off the top of my head, the janjaweed were unleashed specifically because the army needed time to reorganize (creating all non-Darfuri units and retraining for counterinsurgent operations). I just figured that those rejiggered units were coming back on line and replacing the janjaweed, which were a stopgap measure in the first place. On more firm ground, the government is creating 'facts on the ground'. The mandate of the UN force is key - if (big if) one is put in place it'll probably be something along the lines of "disarm combatants and stop attacks upon civilians". If all the "Africans" are in the towns or refugee camps in Chad, this is a clear victory for the government as it takes the ethnic cleansing as the status quo. Even a "repatriate displaced persons to their place of former residence" mandate could be messed with in practice by the government. Nobody has ever claimed that the leaders of the Sudanese government are stupid, and they've got over twenty years of experience of diplomatic brinksmanship, though this is clearly a new level. But if you look at the lack of substantive penalties that they have incurred e.g. the oil is still flowing, my prediction (this morning) is that Sudan pushes off any UN force until they've basically completed the genocide, the UN comes in a force with a humanitarian relief and peace keeping mandate and Western politicians declare that they have stopped the genocide. Clear win for the government.
 * The international response has been pathetic, boiling down to some finger wagging and stern language. If that wouldn't make me clean my room when I was kid, why should it stop a genocide? (This is of course assuming that the objective is to stop the genocide. I recommend Samantha Powers' "A Problem From Hell" on the U.S. lack of response to genocides as the result of a well-functioning system.) A military intervention with a peace enforcement mandate (e.g. shooting militia who attack a village as opposed to reporting the attack as a violation of the terms of a ceasefire) is only thing likely to make a difference in the structural issues on a timescale that would make a difference to the people affected. The only force in the world capable of doing so in a substantive way is that of the U.S. and, even if American policymakers could be convinced that it was in the national interest, there is no spare military power available, it being tied up in Iraq and, to a lesser extent, Afghanistan. The EU hasn't had the ability to carry out warfighting overseas in many many moons and I doubt that the U.S. will spare the logistical assets required to transport and supply an EU force. You'd have to be crazy not to assume that the Sudanese leadership hasn't made these calculations as well. No peace keeping/enforcement force is going in until Sudan gives its OK.
 * Have you noticed my lack of optimism? - BT 14:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

unless something drastically changes in regards to media coverage, you are likely correct, since there's really no novel initiative/pressure on the majoring governing institutions involved to take action against Khartoum. More than likely you're correct and the continuum of cynical obfuscating by all parties will proceed.

I would guess that short of a major amplication of coverage by the "global" (American) media. Couldn't the problem be solved by simply marching a number of American citizens into Darfur illegally, possibly resulting in their imprisonment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gozar (talk • contribs)


 * Sudan has already got that covered. Have you noticed how hard it is to get a visa to Sudan? I can't remember which book it was where Kofi Annan was supposed to visit an IDP camp for a photo op and arrived to find that the entire camp population of 10,000 was moved overnight so the media wouldn't have their footage of desperate Africans for the evening news. That said, the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake just knocked Darfur right out of the news cycle. It raises some interesting what-ifs. - BT 23:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well. I think the following "Breaking News" items could trigger American media interest:

[http://www.cnn.com Seventeen year-old girl from NJ held imprisoned by Sudanese government. US envoy says, "situation very dire"]

Khartoum sends Michael Jackson to Islamic judiciary amid charges of homosexuality by Hasan Al-Turabi

Sudanese Muslims riot after President's remarks

J-Lo to wed Bashir

Click here for more fatalistic humor

Abuse of NSR
NSR is a style guide, not a justification for stripping out references to Wikipedia from the outside world. You're not only fighting the masses, you're on the wrong side of the issue. Cheers. --The Cunctator 05:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Above section removed by The Cunctator four minutes after posting with the edit summary "Nevermind". I assume that this is related to the navel-gazing over at Marshall Poe but, if someone is going to call me an ignorant fool on my talk page, I expect a blanking to be accompanied by more than a shrug of the shoulders. - BT 14:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

death of John Garang
hi BanyanTree ... you make this revert, but this article says he dies on 30 july 2005, not on 1 august - Sven-steffen arndt 15:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right. I'm not sure what I was looking at to get that wrong, but it definitely is. I'll change it back. - BT 15:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Maraba Coffee (again!)
Hi BT,

I seem to have lost the momentum with this in the last couple of months, having been busy with other things and waiting ages for a reference promised to me by the people at PEARL, but I think most of the points you raised at peer review have now been dealt with, so maybe it's time to nominate it for F.A. If you have a spare moment, please could you check if there are any obvious failings remaining before I do so?

Cheers, &mdash; SteveRwanda 09:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Steve, I like what you've done to the article. I think you're good to go. I don't think I've seen something like this at FAC before and am interested to hear what the people there say. You may want to consider notifying the Africa users at WP:AFR about a relevant FAC. Good luck! - BT 13:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. It's up for FAC now. One Support already, so let's see how it goes! I've sent a note to all those listed on WP:AFR. Thanks for your help. &mdash; SteveRwanda 15:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice. Just a note, some users strongly frown upon messages being dropped into large numbers of talk pages. My wording previously was ambiguous, but my intended suggestion was simply to post to the announcements section of AFR. - BT 15:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, OK. I wasn't aware of that. I seem to recall a 'circular' coming on my talk page when Libya was up for FAC so assumed it was the norm! Hope no harm done... SteveRwanda 15:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Recent changes
Hi BT,

Just writing to ask your opinion on the recent restructuring of the Maraba article by User:PFHLai. Is it better in its current form, or the original one? I don't really know myself. This FAC is getting quite hectic with people popping up and editing bits here and there, to however they think it should be... it's quite hard to keep up! Cheers &mdash; SteveRwanda 15:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have started a section at Talk:Maraba Coffee that should serve as a venue for ironing these out. Things certainly got a bit hectic for a bit, didn't they? Hopefully, I didn't break anything in my large edit - if people are going to make a fuss over the length of the lead, the easiest way to do that is take out the lowest level of detail and leave that up to the text body. I'm a little concerned that an idea flow got broken in the section moving, e.g. an idea is now discussed before it is introduced or an acronym is used before the full name, so a good read through to catch those would be in order once things calm down a bit. - BT 16:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

adminness
I'm flattered you'd think of nominating me. I remember welcoming you and your Uganda-insurgency kick. I have always kinda wanted to be an admin, but the tools are mostly used for housecleaning whereas I spend most of my time in articles writing text(kinda why my edits are not as numerous as they could be - for every hour of editing there is at least two hours of research). Also the fact that as a field biologist I am potentially away for month on end sans internet I very much doubt I'd make the grade. But thanks so much for thinking of it! Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not at all. For what it's worth, two FAs in two years of consistent editing with no major personal nastiness defaults to adminworthy, IMO. If you ever decide that you'd like to make a bid for the shiny buttons, I'd be happy to write up a nom. Best, BT 23:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool. Perhaps when I settle down somewhere. ;) Inidentally, it's three FAs, just to blow my trumpet! Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Rosa Parks -- thanks
Hi, thanks for catching the blanking that I missed on Rosa Parks. --Allen 19:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No worries. My first thought was "Where did all the photos go?" and I looked for some sort of image copyright dispute on the talk, then it dawned on me that a section had disappeared. - BT 19:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Maraba (lead)
Morning (or afternoon) BT,

It seems like one or two people are still objecting to the length of the lead. I personally think it's adequate enough now, and there's no real advantage to removing the sentences on hand picking. I often think people have the wrong idea about lead sections as so many articles here lack adequate ones. It seems others are satisfied or neutral now too. What do you reckon? And what are the prospects now of this thing going through? Amcaja said he may do some more copy editing tomorrow, so hopefully the prose objections will eventually be raised... Cheers &mdash; SteveRwanda 14:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Good morning, Yeah the lead looks fine. I think some of the objections may be coming from different perspectives of what the article is, and thus what a "summary" of the article is. I view it as basically an article on a business (with some interesting circumstances) and am thus interested in the production cycle and marketing. Brian's edits, especially the changing from passive to active voice, are very good. Frankly, I've read some FAs with prose so distasteful that I had to force myself through the article, so was a little surprised that there was a significant body of opinion that the article as it was fell short. Maybe the normative bar has been raised since I was an FAC regular, though the last time I registered strong opposition to a candidate it went through. In any case, the article is better now and that's a good thing. I would say that, with the balance of opinion now and efforts made to address the latest objections, it is most probably going through. I'll do a complete read through again in a few days. I respect Peta's opinion greatly and would in particular like to see her change her vote. Best, BT 14:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, nevermind. If people are simply unwilling to vote for an article on a business, then they should simply state so at the outset rather than making users jump through hoops and then blow them off with a snarky comment. Bah, humbug. - BT 17:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I've done my best, but eventually a brochure and a neutral article will inevitably have some overlap. Unfortunately I suppose Peta is likely to follow suit - or else she isn't planning to come back to this. It would be nice to have support from such experienced editors, but maybe it'll have enough to pass anyway... SteveRwanda 17:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Re:Gallery on Commons
You're right! (that was my first upload ...) --Esculapio 14:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And a fine batch of photos it is for a first upload too! - BT 14:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: move request
I'm a bit confused as to what the final configuration should be there; what exactly do we want merged into what?

(This aside from the point that neither of the pages you linked seems to have any particularly meaningful history anyways. It may be easier to just sort out the redirects and leave the single-item histories where they are; I very much doubt anyone will have a use for them.) Kirill Lokshin 15:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Y'know, I'm getting more confused myself as I look at those pages. That's a lot of poorly referenced page movement. I thought putting the talk with the associated article text would make sense, but it looks like it is actually referring to the history at Command and Control and that the sub topic pages were made in a cut-and-paste split without edit summary attribution. I am not a contributor to those pages, having only seen them pop up in a recent dab at Second Congo War and wandered over to tidy page titles. Please ignore my request as I don't have the slightest idea what is going on and thanks for putting up with the confusion. - BT 16:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)