User talk:Risker/Giano's block

Another comparison
Risker, could you look at the history of ScienceApologist's blocks under his civility parole. I'm not sure I see much difference. (I've issued two of those five blocks, so I certainly shouldn't do the analysis, but I think it would be a good comparison.) GRBerry 13:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your note, GRBerry; I will try to take a look at things when I manage to drag myself out of the office today. My observation of you generally has been that you have a pretty good sense of proportion. Risker (talk) 17:53, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "Civility parole" invites "civility patrol." There are people, I am convinced, who go around looking to ensure that "incivil" people are caught.  For them, "civility" is worse than vandalism.  Some people "hunt" vandals -- sure that they're there -- and other people "hunt" incivility.  Utgard Loki (talk) 17:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * My off the cuff observation on SA is that his "incivility" is generally a type of personal attack and so is different from giano, whose "incivility" tends towards disruptive questioning. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano
Excellent post on Giano's page. Allowing any one of 1,500 Admins to apply their grotesque powers in such a subjective area as "civility" to an editor of his stature is sickening. It is the Wiki-equivalent of declaring open season on a tethered lamb. Sarah777 (talk) 22:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sarah, glad you found the post interesting. I will take a bit of an exception to the characterization of our admin group, though. Most of them do very good work most of the time. The best ones, I find, are those who spend as much time collaboratively editing as doing administrative tasks, as they seem to have a better ability to get the human touch right. Next are those who find a niche and focus on that area—images, AIV, and so on. Even when some of them get in over their heads, it's usually on the non-human side of things, and they'll try to get it right. But things as broad and as nebulous as civility paroles are so dependent upon the personally held beliefs of each individual that they're a disaster waiting to happen. Risker (talk) 22:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments on Giano's talk page
First, let me say that I am in complete agreement with the entire section Effects on the community. Our dispute resolution system is, in my opinion, deeply flawed. Some of these flaws have affected Giano adversely, other flaws have affected editors in other arbitration cases adversely. I look forward to the day that the current system is replaced with something more appropriate for a community of this size and nature.

I'd like to respond to one comment that implicitly referred to me, "When he tried to work out his anger in a constructive way by writing a personal essay, he got a warning on his userpage." When I left that one-sentence warning, I had already noticed several of the diffs Will Beback posted on Giano's talk page later that day, as well as a few diffs of edits to the essay page. Those were already adequate for a block; but I decided a block should be avoided if possible, and decided to leave a warning to avoid further statements asserting bad faith instead. Although his motivations are unknown to me, Will also chose to warn instead of blocking immediately. I don't choose to ignore the civility parole, although I sympathize with those who argue it was misguided. I do wish, as I'm sure we all do, to see this situation come to a resolution everyone can accept. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 22:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments, Carl. When I was talking about your warning, I was more intending it to be an illustration of the "editing in a goldfish bowl" situation. I wrote up that essay in my userspace, and I rather doubt anyone even noticed; in fact, I wrote one thing, and then completely rewrote it. But the fact is, I could play around and look at what I wrote, figure out if anything crossed the line, and remove it after I'd seen what it looked like. That's the whole idea of userspace. Giano sometimes forgets that he is under such absurd scrutiny; he wasn't, for most of his editing life. I know Giano was walking a very fine line on Tuesday and Wednesday, and it was wise of him to stay away today. Sadly, someone else decided to ignore the request to comment directly to me, and when Giano finished reading my comments (he did not see them in advance), someone just had to respond right there with more politely and civilly worded comments littered with the kind of thing Giano finds are personal attacks. Whoever came up with the current interpretation of "civility" has clearly not spent enough time in the UK, where people will usually take far more umbrage at the politely worded insults than at being called an unprintable name. The essay is gone now, and I will not be reposting. Risker (talk) 23:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Never mind the UK; what passes in Ireland for normal robust discourse in the politest of circles seems to be intolerable to the hyper-sensitive Wiki-establishment. Mind you, I suspect this manufactured civility is merely a weapon that establishment uses to purge malcontents. I note your I could play around and look at what I wrote, figure out if anything crossed the line". Without any disrespect - this reads like fear. Are we all so cowed by the Wiki "community"? Sarah777 (talk) 23:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add that what you (Risker) wrote here was excellent. You should keep a copy of that in your userspace, at least for a few more days. I see that Joopers has posted something as well. Possibly everyone should back away from Giano's talk page for a few days? Carcharoth (talk) 12:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Carcharoth, I have taken your suggestion and copied it here for now. Let's hope everyone is able to take a few deep breaths and step back from the brink over the coming days. Risker (talk) 12:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it only links from your talk page, so no-one will find it... Carcharoth (talk) 13:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point. Resolved. Risker (talk) 13:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)