User talk:Rjecina/Archive4

Montenegro
I have seen article but I do not see point in fact that prime minister has been for "union".

I don't understand what you wanted to say. ?

P.S. Actually, just like you said, everyone was for "union", it was just question of how. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

So, let's discuss some of your changes:
 * The first one notes that "Prime Minister of Montenegro Andrija Radovic was the strongest supporter of unification". However, during the negotiations for a union, he wasn't PM. Military Commander Janko Vukotic was, and later the pro-regime Milo Matanovic. Second of all, although he was one of the strongest ones, he was just one of many, so it's incorrect to note "the strongest". And lastly, Serbia has been for unification with Montenegro since its creation in the Uprising, in 1804, and not 1866 (when there was just an anti-Ottoman Alliance of Serbia and Montenegro and just that).
 * And now the second one. That is already in the article, so there is no need for repetition. Second of all, the Committee wasn't created by the Serbian government, but by the "Montenegrin Committee for National Unification", which was a product of the Government of the Kingdom of Montenegro in Exile. Second of all, there was no parliament whatsoever to be dismissed in the first place. ;)
 * Your third edit is essentially useful, but it needs much more work in it. The last two sentences do not seem to correspond there. Second of all, there were over 9,500 detainees and exiles. Out of those, a little more than 10 couldn't return to Montenenegro. Among those who returned, it was perfectly enough to form up and organize the "Green List" and then not only that, but raise a rebellion and continue opposition for another 8 years. And most importantly, most of those prevented to return were collaborators with the Central Powers and for all of them there were darn good reasons. Here's an example: Radomir Vesovic has disobeyed his superiors and has acted alone during WWI, benefiting to the fall of Montenegro; and in 1917-1918 he was the leading collaborator with the Austrians. Radomir Vesovic became Austria-Hungary's governor of Montenegro, and his own *comitas* (over 300 members of The Resistance) rebelled against him, refusing to collaborate and openly declaring that they want to free Montenegro and make it a part of Serbia IMHO (see this for example if you need reference). After the Central Powers were beaten, he fled together with them northwestwards. Taking all this to granted, it makes absolutely sensible to prevent the enemy from returning. After the unification they were pardoned (lol, not anything like that which the Partisans did after winning WWII ;). Sincerely, I see nothing wrong in there. Do you? P.S. And how about this Jovan Becir? He abandoned and was excluded in a dishonored for opposing the merger of the Montenegrin Army with the Serbian in 1914. :) I've had no idea about Jakov Jovanovic, but after searching around a little, I found out that he it appears that he died in 1917. ;D Hilarious, no? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

As for referring to martial law and the legal interpretations of the term "occupation", the Montenegrin Army merged into the Serbian at the start of the war in late 1914. This decision was never formally abolished, so that makes the Serbian Army not foreign but domestic. Nevertheless it should be noted that this was not used by Serbia at all during the liberation, and a common military occupation of the Entente (British, American, French and Italian units next to Serbian) was applied for Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I forgot one more thing. You should stop referring to the former parliament, because the power was not vested in it, but in the King. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the main point in the "background" part is to show that the desire to unite with Serbia was a historical tenacity. It should not go deeper into it, because the original plans were a slow, peaceful and graduate integration into Serbia, that was made impossible after the fall of Montenegro and all the events from the Nish to the Corfu Declaration, with the desire to create a common state of all "remaining" South Slavs, rather than a Greater Serbia. The People's Party just stood for unification (of any kind, just that it happens). The True People's Party originally did not want unification with Serbia, which was the cause of its downfall and NS's dominance on the political scene. Only in the end (1914) PNS also accepted to unite with Serbia, with slowly political opinions emerging on the scene in which NS was more radical for that and PNS just had a form of personal union on its mind. Nevertheless, the majority of the people stood by NS, while PNS was only supported by the Court and by people close to it (the Army, higher position-holders,...). The no-continuation "crystalization" of the opinion can be seen in The Clubists' reemergence on the scene as The Whites, and The Rightists' as The Greens.
 * Well, it bears no mention of Italian agents (up to 1924, not just '19), I just mentioned them here, on your talk page. ;) Also, the Serbian agents appeared in the 20th and not the 19th century. The comparison is also inapplicable, as one was supported by both official Montenegro as well as the Montenegrin people, while the latter wasn't. Would you compare the EU agents in Croatia working for Croatia's European integrations in a similar manner? ;)
 * That is not quite true. All 5 key members were there. Mijat Sukovic isn't quite sure white the Board is. Some of the lower management (not members of the Committee themselves) were brought from Serbia, for the sake of at least some sort of balance, not to make them all Montenegrins.
 * And where are those data? He writes about Radomir Vesovic, who was an Austro-Hungarian collaborator. He writes about Sekula Drljevic, even though he was the leader of the unification of Serbia and Montenegro movement amongst the Montenegrin detainees in Central Powers' camps, a man who was after the Great War released from prison and allowed to return as well as recognized the Podgorica Assembly (it was one of his root ideas), and even then joined the Serbian People's Radical Party (an extremely unionist one). He writes about Djuro Petrovic, who was back then seriously ill in a hospital in Vienna. Then his alleged sources write about people who are already bygone dead. And most of all, we know that most of the over 9,500 the Montenegrin detainees in A-H internment camps returned, including the fact that most of them were (under the leadership of Sekule Drljevic) for unconditional unification with Serbia.
 * I didn't know about that, and I included that into the article. As for the old parliament, it was not merely dismissed by the occupier, but it also collapsed and dismissed itself. And in the end, it's term would've expired anyway by then. The expectation was that MNE together with Serbia and forms a Yugoslavian state, by all, but the problematic thing was that MNE was recognized on 13 July 1878 as a sovereign nation, so as the Allied commander of British forces for Montenegro pointed, there must've been at least some formal proclamation of a legislative body, no matter how symbolical it would be. Since there was no parliament. The Montenegrin Committee went forth to organize elections for one. However, the decision was that everything in MNE is conducted neutrally: the forces that occupied it were an Allied expedition of the Entente, and the elections for this national assembly were supposed to fall neither under Montenegrin nor under Serbian laws, thus as you see bound to be "illegal" from the very start. :) I see no paranoid act from the Serbian government. Problematic as it may be, it still was better pulled off that the one in Banat-Backa-Baranja, don't you think? And as far as I understood, there were no elections in the Hungarian/Croatian-Slavonian County Syrmia, it's MPs just decided to join a common state of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, but to enter as a part of the Serbian national corpus. It's pretty much like assemblies of all clans in MNE or of all municipal assemblies, however the Podgorica Assembly had to be organized to actually formalize these acts and put a final word for it, and because of Nicholas' screams from abroad. Numerous other similar were held across former Yugoslavia, it's just that the ones in Syrmia and the Bay of Kotor were recognized by the Serbian government, for honor towards Zagreb.
 * In my thinking Nicholas' acts remind me much of modern Serbian political acts. "No, no, no" and then "yes" when it's too late, saying "no" to other upgraded events. Wouldn't you say? ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you actually read what I wrote to the up? :) There indeed was a division in the population (unitarian and federal Yugoslavia), but the Greens lost to the Whites, and a perfect evidence that that opinion indeed represented the true opinion of the people were the 1920 elections (that were free and correct without problems like the Podgorica Assembly). And read what I wrote about the "Italian agents" to the up. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. The Resolution of the Serbian National Assembly of the Kingdom of Montenegro from 1914 calls for unification with Serbia (it has never been dismissed). Also, the Constitution of Montenegro, proclaimed by Nicholas in 1905, calls for gravitation and unification of all Serbian lands into one state. However this is all relative, because unlike in Serbia, in Montenegro the King was above the Constitution, so at the same time we must differently observe the situation in Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Regarding your most recent edit: Montenegro had a population of over two hundred and fifty thousand people. There were a total of 9,500 detainees. Most of them returned, including their leader and proponent of unconditional Serb unification Sekule Drljevic. And in the first place, the members of the military have had no voting rights. :) The Royal Family also had no voting rights, and there was also a rift amongst them - the Queen of Montenegro supported unconditional unification with Serbia. Her brother was the supreme commander of the Montenegrin Youth that fought the Greens in 1919. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and the question of unitarian/federal state was never really "opened" before the Greens started, opened far too late, to present that as a possibility during the elections for the Podgorica Assembly in November of 1918. It would later across 1919 shift into a Greens' desire to separate Montenegro from the newly-created Kingdom, when all of it's support received a final drop to the bottom. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand. What 10,000 are you referring to? The King and his men acted through the Greens and organized well enough; there was no independence-campaign at all (nor did they think about independence until they lost the election). Yes, a neutral compromise is that if you write about the people who were prevented to return, that the majority was allowed to return.
 * OK, but you will then also have to add the Greens' political propaganda too. ;)
 * As for your most recent edits, why do you insist on "under serbian protection"? This isn't Kosovo in 1990, you know. Also I can't understand how you consider the Italian attempt to seize Montenegro (which by the way, in braking the Allies' semi-international agreement, can be freely classified under aggression) an attempt to liberate Montenegro from Serbian control? Do you also think that Italy was also trying to liberate Gorizia, Istria, Fiume, the Bay of Kotor and the Adriatic islands? Or that the 1941 was a liberation? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. The reason why the world was vastly in support of such an event was precisely this - self-determination. The self-determination was primarily applied by the allies after the Central Powers were defeated (mostly in A-H Dual Monarchy I guess), and that solely bent itself on the right of peoples to choose on their own and form up nation-states. Considering that (in then's understanding) in Montenegro and Serbia the same ethnic group lived, King Nicholas' and others' pleas for a subsequent self-determination of the Montenegrin People were not taken seriously - the Podgorica Assembly was treated just like numerous Serb assemblies in the Bosnian Frontier for example ("Serbs wanted it"). This is the prime reason of Nicholas Petanovich's aims that there are foundations for the Serbs in Montenegro to be proclaimed as a distinct ethnic group, in an effort to apply this national self-determination to them. Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Er, I'm afraid I didn't understand you. Are you asking a RfC? I think we can work this out together easier and quicker. ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. I replied. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, why do you think this falls under nationalistic editing? ;( --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. By the way, don't get insulted, but you are really becoming furious, angry and aggressive in a way. Don't let the Wikipedia stress you. My advice to you: Take a cup of coffee and ease down. ;) All the best. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I advice you not to "back off" - Wikipedia's articles are a result of common agreements.
 * I don't see why there are so many disagreements on this issue. I have explained to you the situation of division: from 1907 to 1914 it was "For the People" and "For the King". The first one was far stronger. Source: the 1914 freely held election in which NS beat the so far ruling PNS. The first one wanted to make Montenegro a part of Serbia and the latter wanted to maintain sovereignty. From 1914 PNS agrees for a slow peaceful unification with Serbia, aligning towards some sort of a personal union, while NS radicalizes showing demand for direct union into Serbia. During WWI the pro-regime current almost completely disappears and emerged as "The Greens", is completely beaten by the overwhelming majority of "The Whites". The minor Greens first wanted some form of Montenegrin sovereignty within a Yugoslavia at first, but then decided to raise an armed rebellion against the state, after they lost, even demanding independence of Montenegro. The majority Whites wanted unconditional union. The Greens staged in 1919 the Italian-sponsored Christmas rebellion, which they lost to the Allies, and then in 1920 called for a boycott of the elections, failed too. The Greens limit their training to Italy and scatter around Belgium and Argentina. Since 1923, they have an ambitious political party that recognizes Yugoslavia. In 1926 they stop all forms of armed resistance. Waining and entirely losing support until the beginning of WWII, some of the "Montenegrin Federalists/Peasants" (the political Greens) in 1941 under Italian occupation declared an "Independent State of Montenegro", and became known as "The Black Latins". The battle-weary Greens form up the Lovcen Brigade that collaborates with the Fascists. The Whites, only a single day later, raise a massive resistance and totally expel the enemy, the very first uprising against Hitler's forces in Europe. The Montenegrin Federalists back off and join the Ustashas and other Nazis, taking part in putting tens of thousands of people to their deaths. The Greens on the battlefield mostly join Draza's Chetniks, who after the Whites' defeat decide to collaborate with the Italians in order to control Montenegro, but after 1942 collaboration stops and the bloody civil war between Partisans and Chetniks begins. The Whites split mostly on two currents: Partisans and Chetniks. In 1944 the Partisans push out the Chetniks from Montenegro and execute the remaining Greens, prosecuting the Montenegrin Federalists that didn't join them. And then there were Tito. End of story.
 * I will try to add something on the things that you're complaining about within months then...Cheers! --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to add, I am fascinated by this irony. The liberal Whites were promoters of pan-Slavic civic Yugoslavian nationalism, civicness and national nihilism, while The conservative Greens advocated Montenegrin regionalism, localism, manly chauvinism, religious fanaticism and most extreme Serbian ultra-nationalism.
 * I've never expected to see you actually defending Serb nationalists. :D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The Greens
Several facts about the Greens you should know:
 * The Greens were armed and prepared in bases in Italy and Italian-held Bay of Kotor.
 * The Greens were the ones who started the fighting, killings and the mini-civil war.
 * According to the 1920 Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes governmental report, and the report of their Italian HQ in Geata, they were strong at nearly 1,500 armed men.
 * The HQ of the Montenegrin Army in Exile at Gaeta has kept a register of its members. I'll try harder to get a hold of it, but some of the names I've seen so far may speak a lot about it. To demonstrate to you an example: Xhemal Bit of Tirana, Albania. :)
 * The supreme martial leader of the Greens on the battlefield during the Christmas Uprising was commander Krsto Zrnov Popović, a former war hero from the Balkan wars and the Great War. After the Christmas Uprising he was pardoned, claimed that he supported the unification of the Kingdom and that he was only bound by his oath. With Nicholas' death, he is now sworn to Alexander.
 * The Chief organizer of the rebellion was Jovan S. Plamenac, who became Prime Minister of the Government in Exile. After, he swore an oath to Alexander, and claimed that he was only bound to Nicholas by his oath, also claiming that Nicholas spread lies and propaganda to him and others how Alexander, Peter and Nikola Pasic are "traitors of Serbdom" and "enemies of Serbian national interests". He then joined the Serbian Radical People's Party and became a minister in Pasic's government.
 * The Greens have never ever questioned the election of the Podgorica Assembly.
 * The Greens have never ever complained/reported about any slaughter or terror in post-WWI Montenegro.
 * After the Fascist Italy of Benito Moussolini stopped making claims of the Yugoslavian Adriatic, the Greens too disappear. Coincidence?
 * All Green leaders survived the all these events and were integrated into the society.
 * The Greens' acts were condemned by the Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Montenegro in Exile, as well as later indirectly criticized by King Nicholas

Doesn't this tell you something? ;) Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I've just discovered a new thing. In late 1918 Nicholas and the Government has accepted the French proposals. Nicholas won't return to Montenegro, his rule as legal shall be respected, but the Montenegrin people shall be given the right of self-determination.

This means that he accepted that which will inevitably lead to the Podgorica Assembly after all, he just called upon the Constitution (which was in act no where) after because he didn't like it - just like he agreed that the 1920 election would be a final self-determination act, and then also refused to put his word of approval. That's why I connoted him to the modern Serbian politics. ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Depends on which part(s) of the population, and sure. But that does not correspond to the Podgorica Assembly or Creation of Yugoslavia articles. That should be over at the Kingdom of Yugoslavia article. I share the opinion of Vladimir Corovic who thinks that every attempt to solve Yugoslavia's many problems have only led to delaying the existing problems, as well as opening new ones. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Rjecina
Hi Rjecina, the article at Croatian wiki is very good, although it could be greatly expanded. About 50,000 Croats and Bosniaks died at Bleiburg, at least 12,000 Bosniaks and Croats died in Jasenovac. Serbs claim that 700,000 of them died in Jasenovac, numbers challeged even by the Holocaust Museum in Washington: "The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustasha between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac." In just a few days of February 1943, the Serbian Chetniks under the leadership of Draza Mihailovich committed genocide of close to 20,000 Bosniak Muslims in the Podrinje area (around Srebrenica region) - mostly women, children and elderly. Serbian Chetniks themselves admitted killing over 9,000 people in this genocidal campaign alone. In conjunction with the war in former Yugoslavia, Serbia has undertaken a campaign to persuade the Jewish community of Serbian friendship for Jews (the Serbian Jewish Friendship Society). This same campaign portrays Bosniaks (Muslims) and Croats (Catholics) as a common threat to both Jews and Serbs, in an attempt to gain Jewish sympathy and support at a time when most nations have isolated Serbia as a Balkan pariah. However, even as Serbia courts Jewish public opinion, their propagandists conceal a history of well-ingrained antisemitism, which continues unabated in 1992. To make their case, Serbs portray themselves as victims in the Second World War, but conceal the systematic genocide that Serbs had committed against several peoples including the Jews. Thus Serbs have usurped as propaganda the Holocaust that occurred in neighbouring Croatia and Bosnia, but do not give an honest accounting of the Holocaust as it occurred in Serbia. I encourage you to learn more at Srebrenica Genocide Blog. Thank you, and if you leave a private comment with your email, I can even give you my email address. Bosniak (talk) 01:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Bosnian Serbs & Bodin's Doclea
I thought you might be interested to know, I remember you had compared the 1931 and 1948 population censuses. In '31 there were 44.3% Orthodox Serbs and in '48 41.6% Serbs. However, I found data about censuses, and according to it 2.9% of the Serbs were of Moslem confession (e.g. including people such as Alija Izetbegovic). So it's actually 44.3% down to 38.5%. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I found an old map by western historians, from 1097, and they correspond the other map we talked about before: 1097 although it says "P. of Servia", which could mean the Serbs (people), but even so the Serb confederacies that existed are there drawn all the way to the north. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to be referring to the entity and various Serb confederacies, I checked the 1000 AD and there was not a single strong united realm back then. And the 814 Serb confederacy it also draws as a unitary state, however back then there were stronger united hands... --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Montenegrin language
Huh? There are five official languages in Montenegro:
 * Montenegrin
 * Serbian
 * Bosnian
 * Albanian
 * Croatian

I don't see what's the problem? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Look - Serbs are a minority in Montenegro - but hey, so are they in Bosnia and Herzegovina.


 * A crucial thing is that the Preamble mentions the peoples and national minorities that live in Montenegro - therefore, Serbs are recognized.


 * So Serbs are a recognized people and their language official, it's exactly how it should be in the text. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Preamble on Language: Službeni jezik je crnogorski; oba pisma, ćirilica i latinica, su ravnorpavni. U službenoj upotrebi su još i srpski, bosanski, hrvatski i albanski jezik. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Precisely why I don't understand what's wrong...? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Službeno in Serbo-Croat - translation to English: Official.
 * We've been through this...Serbian "screams" were not a rare thing in the 1980s and 1990s, I though you should've known that. :)
 * One of the many problems is/was in the fact that Serbian is no longer the sole language official, and thus further separating the Montenegrin nation from the Serbian corpus.
 * But of course, that's just background. The prime problem is, as we've discussed before, the discriminatory (towards the Serbs) Constitutional Act that proclaimed the new Constitution. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well a tag can't stay there forever, and if I recall, you have withdrawn your argument? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting info
By the way, Milan S. Pirocanac did not spend a day in Montenegro in 1866. He was in Belgrade that year. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Right now, this is what's important. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * And next to the presidential election, there is the (terribly) long-expected greatest spectacle Serbia and former Yugoslavia in general, had ever seen. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Seen the trailer? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: SPA Account
Thanks for the explanation. Still - you should restrain yourself in using derogatory terms when talking about others - especially in the case when you do not have a rational reason for it. I inspected that user's contributions - didn't see them your way.--Smerdyakoff (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

What is Smerdyakoff talking about? May I help? Kubura (talk) 09:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandal's edits
As I see, Special:Contributions/Pederkovic_Ante and Special:Contributions/Ante Pederkovic have one contribution each? Kubura (talk) 09:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is correct, edits of banned users (after they're banned) are to be deleted - but as I see you didn't do that, and you delete even your own and some other people's too. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That map, AFAIK, is (except for Pannonia's borders and so-called "Red Croatia"), fairly correct (when it comes to just Dalmatia).


 * Why do you evade youtube? OK, have the official website then.


 * I'm not following the new and I'm not sure what you're talking about. What's the matter? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Pannonia, maybe. But the Dalmatia (as already depicted in your article on the Croatian-Bulgarian wars?) was very big, by the end of the 8th century the ethnogenesis of the "greater" Croat and Serb tribes was complete, Lika and the region of western Bosnia was very quickly integrated into the state (according to Serbian historians' unfounded claims, the territory annexed from Serbia, similar to the Croatian historians' unfounded claims that Prince Ceslav in 948 took the territory between Bosna and Vrbas from Croatia). Indeed Trpimir's and other defensive operation in the face of Bulgarian invasions did expand the Croatian border, from Bosnia to Drina, at least (either from Serb vassals to Bulgaria or direct Bulgars). The area would not be there for long, as Tomislav lost it in 926 to the Bulgarians.
 * Yep, but what's wrong with youtube?
 * Well, first of all, that's not Tadic's words, but some journalist "transporting" them from Serbian to Croatian. What Tadic really did is sent a plea to all countries bordering Serbia (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina) to be neutral at the moment of Kosovo's declaration of independence, so that the general image is recuperated altogether, rather than recognize it at once (which, if I'm not mistaken, HDZ responded that it's its policy).
 * And that about Kostunica is a rumor. :)
 * P.S. I've been researching Pirocanac's biography and I found out several things. He was indeed dispatched to Cetinje by Prince Michael Obrenovic III, to work on further at the plans for liberation from the Ottoman Empire. Milan S. Pirocanac became the very first Serbia's consul to Montenegro. One of the main plans was to make a Federation of Nations, that is Serbs, Roumanians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks. The agreement was that nation-states would be formed in the spirit of the 19th century, and Pirocanac brought the plans to discussion with Prince Nicholas Petrovic-Njegos. In an signed agreement, Nikola had agreed to form up a military alliance with Serbia against the Ottoman Empire and to abdicate in favor of Mihailo. And so thus, in 'some' books, a consul becomes an "agent", the agent further becomes a "secret" agent and an official diplomat becomes some sort of an "agitator". Misinterpretation in truly bad faith. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

New messages from Voyagerfan5761
Tuvok[T@lk/Improve] 19:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ding! Tuvok[T@lk/Improve] 20:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Vrlika
Our favourite cyrllic-addicts are at it again, once again with Vrlika, a 92% inhabited Croatian town. Any help maintaining the dignity of the page will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. --Jesuislafete (talk) 06:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You are in a tough fight on the Starcevic page. It has been vandalized and POV-forced beyond belief. If you look back into the history, I tried at least to reinsert some things about his legacy, but even that was to much for the haters (including banned user Giovanni). Do you need any help with it? --Jesuislafete (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you need help with English, just notify me, and I can write it, or edit your work.--Jesuislafete (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much, and good to hear that.--Jesuislafete (talk) 21:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Your note on my talk page
Excuse me, but what are you trying to say here ???--Smerdyakoff (talk) 14:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Template:Morea Despot
A tag has been placed on Template:Morea Despot requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it is substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (&lt;noinclude>&#123;{transclusionless}}&lt;/noinclude>).

Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 23:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppets
Thanks for the information you put on my talk page. You are doing a great job monitoring the behaviour of these people. Even more so because English is not easy for you. (But easier than Croatian/Serbian is for me!)Kirker (talk) 11:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for even more good work chasing the sockpuppets. Kirker (talk) 02:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * AP1929 is not unique in his views, so unless something different is proved I must assume Brkic is a separate guy. I don't know what to do about the Pavelić article, by the way. What AP1929 has written is far too uncritical, but the other version was pretty messed up too. It really needs to be started again. Why don't you have a go? Kirker (talk) 02:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

info
Thanks for the info Hobartimus (talk) 16:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol
I have just discovered that over 60% of your edits are about Serbia and remembered your proposal about "splitting" the articles to people from corresponding countries. :D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Threats
Do not threaten me, and if you do, do it in a language we both understand because your English is very poor and I have no idea what you are saying.

I have done nothing wrong, and there are no grounds for me to be blocked on, I have obeyed every wikipedia rule as outlined by wikipedia, and you will have a very hard time blocking me if that is what you are implying with your horrible use of the English language. AP1929 (talk) 08:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I completely accept Ustasa crimes, I do not accepts inflated Ustasa crimes and not all Ustase were bloodthirsty monsters. Crimes are committed by individuals and not entire groups unless the foundation of the movement of which they belong imply so, and in this case they do not. I can not be banned, and don't plan on being banned any time soon. AP1929 (talk) 08:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm an English major and a historian, I'm sure when it comes down to it, I know what I'm talking about and I understand the language we are using right now very well. Ako vam je tesko drzati razgovor na eng. slobodno pisi te na hrvatskom jeziku.AP1929 (talk) 09:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Nedic's Serbia
Rjecina, you accuse me of acting like Velebit. First of all Velebit is stubborn and fixed on his idea that Serbia was just occupied with no Serbian imput. I am not stubborn to the idea that Serbia was a puppet state or that it was a German administration of some sorts. I believed that Serbia was a puppet state but over time, I have found German-run entities such as "Military Administration of Serbia" as well as "Military Administration of France", and Reichskommissariats. These entities had collaborationist forces within them and even governments, but according to the German occupying forces, the creation of states was forbidden, i.e. the Netherlands had a Dutch fascist government which wanted to be an independent state, but was rejected, more famously Norway wanted to be an independent state under Quisling, but was rejected as well. Let me make it clear unlike Velebit, that I believe that Milan Nedic wanted Serbia to be an independent state by creating a currency, etc. to do so, but so did the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. The German authorities were the rulers of the territory and Germany recognized the military governors as supreme. Believe me Rjecina, for me I think it would be a lot simpler to say that Nedic ran a state, but with the huge amount of criticism and some valid claims against the idea that it was a state, makes me have to take that into consideration. To summarize, unlike Velebit, I agree that Nedic wanted Serbia to be a state and an equal partner in the Axis powers and he made significant efforts to do so, however, most likely due to the unstable situation there and to avoid upseting Germany's key Balkan ally, the Ustashe regime of Croatia, Germany denied Serbia statehood and only allowed a civil administration.--R-41 (talk) 17:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Italianization
Or, because of keeping of previous edits, to merge the content from fascist Italianization to Italianization, and to put on the article fascist Italianization a redirect to Italianization? Personally, I think that that article, "fascist Italianization" is ordinary content forking. Like, "bad kind of Italianization happened only during fascist times, in other times it was nice and romantic". All other -izations have one article. What do you say? Kubura (talk) 09:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

See this !?! This is becoming total insanity... I've reverted some of these... It should be done with all of it... Zenanarh (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Re Independent State of Croatia
Well others got there before me, but I decided to do some more reworking anyway. I wasn't trying to change the balance of the text, which seemed pretty much NPOV to me. But you will notice I took out your reference to "terror." I'm not trying to play down what happened, but just thought "terror" seemed a bit too strong?

If you plan to add significant amounts of text to this article or others that are related (Pavelić, Ustaša etc) you could, if you wish, send it to me first and I will copy-edit it and send it back to you. You could then decide if it still said what you intended it to say, and use it, edit it or discard it as you like. If I was away from home or too busy I would let you know. Of course, once you put it into an article, I would feel free to edit, delete, etc, as with anything else! For the best way to contact, see note I put for you on my page. Kirker (talk) 02:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been busy with work and exams, so I've been away. Do you still need help with this article? --Jesuislafete (talk) 01:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Pavelić
I don't know if it was you who had put in those words once before, but maybe I should not have changed them without discussion. My problems with your version are:

1) A statement that Pavelić directly ordered everything would need be sourced. I changed it because AP1929 challenged it in one of the discussions. I hardly need add that I hope there is a source!

2) Genocide is a much more specifically defined term than terror, and the Ustaša policy certainly qualifies.

3) I don't know whether you are arguing for every word of your editing or whether you have just brought back someone else's words, so.... Are you really insisting on Gypsies ? I changed it because for English speakers this term is sometimes derogatory. Kirker (talk) 22:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't get it, ai?
I am not sure is it worth it explaining to you. But I will try. Reason is, that is unnecessary, and tends to provoke EDIT wars, which Balkan boys are famous of it. Old text is enough. --HarisM (talk) 02:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC) As I excepted, you didn't get it. There is all the names, Stefan, Stevan, Stjepan... so what's the problem? Oh, yes... --HarisM (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You are blind then. So long. --HarisM (talk) 02:40, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Clovio, Schiavone & Giorgio
I was rather surprised by your edits, and have been discussing them with an admin User:Tyrenius, who, like me, is not very happy wih them (see our talk pages). I would suggest you would refactor them as archiving the old stuff. No one ever looks at archives. Johnbod (talk) 13:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not for you alone to say if the edits will stay deleted. I don't think you have contibuted to these pages much, if at all. You will see there are two admins on my talk page who disagree with your deletions. Apart from anything else, if all the talk pages are deleted, it may lead other Croatian editors to think these issues have never been raised, instead of discussed ad nauseam, and to reopen debates that have now been largely over for many months. Johnbod (talk) 19:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Christmas rebellion
I'm not sure I understand why you put it there - this is about Imbris and not me.

Also, I've got the "Karageorgevic's bloody legacy" book published by the Greens' Montenegrin Army in Exile in Gaeta. I've been going through the sources of the Fascist Party's publishing and there's interesting data. According to it, the number of deaths are hundreds. I think I could e-mail it to you if you're interested? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 00:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I understand that the Podgorica Assembly question is still open - ready to return to it? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 00:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The first thing you need to keep in mind that in political conflicts (like in Serbia between the Karageorgevics and Obrenovics, almost escalated to a civil war on one occasion) and civil conflicts crimes are committed. It isn't just that the Whites instilled by the French, British, Americans and Serbians committed crimes. The Greens instilled by the Italians committed too. Let me give you an example: On 6 August 1919 the home of Andrija Radovic was broken, pillaged and burned to the ground. His father was killed and his corps incinerated in the flame. His mother and sister were kidnapped; they were sent to be used as "rape-girls" for the Greens and no one has heard of them before. I am only now discovering the hideous crimes committed during the 1919 and 1920 struggles. It seems that over a hundred people were murdered on most brutal ways imaginable. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 01:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Open subjects won't let me retire. :P
 * When two people come to the table and discuss - everything is possible, trust me. :) I am not interested just in legal argument (btw, just out of curiosity, are you a lawyer?), I want to gladly inspect the situation as a whole.
 * "Your comments on my talk page are another example of Greater Serbia propaganda. Are you really believe in statement:, "Greens has taken 65+ years old Andrija Radaković mother to be rape-girl", "You need to start reading serious stuff. Not even 10-11 year old child can believe that Greater Serbia bullshit.".
 * I'm sorry, but this did occur. The Greens themselves claim this (though they try to justify it). :)
 * Uh...I beg your pardon? (I'm having my second thoughts on sending you the Bloody Memoirs) Could you please elaborate your sentence to the bottom? Are you actually aware of that which you said? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 02:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Andrija Radovic didn't even live in Montenegro. He lived in Paris and the Greens new. The decision was to punish his family (blood feud, banned by Montenegrin law years before and criticized by international laws) by killing his father, destroying his birthplace and raping and brutally murdering his wife and sister. Are you saying that that's OK? Also this had occurred after 1918. You mustn't be interested solely in legal arguments - that's baseless here on Wikipedia. In the same manner it would be insane to put at the Kosovo article that it's declaration of independence is illegal. Except the High Judge of Montenegro was with him. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. No chance he would've been sentenced to death. There was no opposition in his work, just some critics in the way he did it. Oh and if you are really ready to just overview legal arguments - let's do it. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 02:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * One side-question. Do you think the Ovcara massacre was justified, good and OK? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * By the Ovcara massacre, the Federal Courts issued warrants for arrest of Franjo Tudjman, Vladimir Seks and numerous other people, as well as sentenced them for treason, and military intervention of the Yugoslav People's Army in the self-declared Republic of Croatia was legal. Please explain to me what's the difference between that which happened in Ovcara & that which occurred in Radovic's home. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Because I do not want to see misleading edits with false statements about me on my talk page I will answer here ! Your our accusing me that I have writen how has been OK kill father, rape sister and wife of Andrija Radovic ?? Please be good and look again my writing on your talk page which is:
 * "''In legal term Andrija Radaković has been traitor during wartime. There is no need to say what is penalty for that.
 * "''In 1918 penalty for high treason has been death. Let say for example that Andrija Radaković has been taken by rebels and that he has come before Montenegrin court. Any judge of that time will declare him guilty and ..."
 * Can you please show where I am saying that it is OK to kill his father, rape his sister and wife.
 * Because of wikipedia rule I must think that your comments have been good faith mistakes but in reality for me is hard to understand what point of my writing has not been clear ?--Rjecina (talk) 15:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What false accusation? I didn't accuse you for anything. :)
 * This has nothing to do with Andrija. I made it clear that the Greens conspired and planned to commit a plain atrocity, to kill everyone in his family and destroy his home (leaving him alive to cope wit it). And then you responded: Your comments on my talk page are another example of Greater Serbia propaganda. Are you really believe in statement: "Greens has taken 65+ years old Andrija Radaković mother to be rape-girl" You need to start reading serious stuff. Not even 10-11 year old child can believe that Greater Serbia bullshit. In legal term Andrija Radaković has been traitor during wartime. There is no need to say what is penalty for that."''
 * So, from these words, what can be concluded? That atrocities are legal? And that "Greater Serbian bullshit", parallel with disrespect of victims, didn't really help me understand what you wanted to say. So...what do you want to say? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

POV accusations
Now we are having all text of our discussion on my talk page:

On 6 August 1919 the home of Andrija Radovic was broken, pillaged and burned to the ground. His father was killed and his corps incinerated in the flame. His mother and sister were kidnapped; they were sent to be used as "rape-girls" for the Greens and no one has heard of them before. I am only now discovering the hideous crimes committed during the 1919 and 1920 struggles. It seems that over a hundred people were murdered on most brutal ways imaginable. ( PaxEquilibrium)

'''Discussion about Podgorica Assembly is not possible. You are interested in feelings and personal thinking I am interested only in legal argument.Your comments on my talk page are another example of Greater Serbia propaganda. Are you really believe in statement: "Greens has taken 65+ years old Andrija Radaković mother to be rape-girl" You need to start reading serious stuff. Not even 10-11 year old child can believe that Greater Serbia bullshit.In legal term Andrija Radaković has been traitor during wartime. There is no need to say what is penalty for that'''.Rjecina


 * Uh...I beg your pardon? (I'm having my second thoughts on sending you the Bloody Memoirs) Could you please elaborate your sentence to the bottom? Are you actually aware of that which you said? --PaxEquilibrium

'''In 1918 penalty for high treason has been death. Let say for example that Andrija Radaković has been taken by rebels and that he has come before Montenegrin court. Any judge of that time will declare him guilty and ...You really do not understand that I am only interested in legal arguments ? I am not interested in emotions'''.Rjecina

One side-question. Do you think the Ovcara massacre was justified, good and OK? --PaxEquilibrium

'''For me there is no difference between Ovčara, Gospić or Srebrenica. This has been killing against any moral or legal rule. Maybe I am mistaking but you know that first we must have court decision which will say if somebody is guilty and they decide penalty ?? Penalty can be death because of high treason during time of war, but without court decision this is massacre''' Rjecina

By the Ovcara massacre, the Federal Courts issued warrants for arrest of Franjo Tudjman, Vladimir Seks and numerous other people, as well as sentenced them for treason, and military intervention of the Yugoslav People's Army in the self-declared Republic of Croatia was legal. Please explain to me what's the difference between that which happened in Ovcara & that which occurred in Radovic's home. --PaxEquilibrium

'''I am still waiting to see where I have writen that it is OK to rape or kill family of Andrija Radaković ? '''--Rjecina (talk) 17:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And if that's not what you meant, I am still waiting to read your clarification regarding what truly you wanted to say when you wrote that. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Tvrtko I of Bosnia
It misses the term "Bosnian", and I hoped that by evading all national-romantic-style-linguistic denominations, I'd evade these controversies (as you see, a Bosniak user has stood up immediately). Back then there were neither Croatian nor Serbian, and Tvrtko was within a very strange melting pot of South Slavic cultures. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Using Template:Cfd-notify
Hi there! I just discovered that you ran into a slight problem with Template:Cfd-notify due to not "substituting" the template -- which causes the newly created section to link to Template:Cfd-notify! (yikes) Anyhow, I've clarified the instructions for using the template, so hopefully future users won't run into that problem -- you weren't the first! :) Regards, Cgingold (talk) 04:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: SPA accounts
Well, he looks pretty moderate, his edits are pretty much ok... He didn't write anything radical or expansionist. I'm aware of the large number of serb nationalists editing Wiki all the time, but I'm going to keep an open mind with this guy. The info he added was pretty much correct and he merely removed that text because of its poor quality I think... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 03:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

RE Pagania
When we speak about Pagania you are right 100 % right 

Is there something else you disagree about ? Hxseek (talk) 11:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that by 840 the Croat duchy was no longer a Frank vassal. Did it not rebel around this time?

Thanks for your comments. I will take them on board. Hxseek (talk) 04:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A question
Why are you so interested in Serbs of Croatia? What is your motivation?

I do appreciate people who add the Croatian views to the article since it keep the article fair and unbiased, but i do not like people who keep the progress down by constantly undoing progress. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Babic (talk • contribs) 20:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you perhaps never thought of the idea that this user is from Croatia? Maybe that will answer your question.--Jesuislafete (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Re IP
Good work man :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 03:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Good job on catching that...I was just about to message you to ask if you noticed anything suspicious about these new users editing/vandalizing Croatia-related articles. No doubt they will be blocked soon enough. It's a shame that we have to keep policing these articles. --Jesuislafete (talk) 04:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Revert warring
I have blocked User:Mike Babic again after your complaint. However, I noticed that you yourself have very extensively revert-warred on the same page (Serbs in Croatia) too, and your edits are by no means purely removal of vandalism. Edits such as this strike me as pretty obviously tendentious (don't tell me that changing "Most of the Serbs from Bilogora and northwestern Slavonia fled those areas as they were under Croatian military control" to "Most of the Serbs from Bilogora and northwestern Slavonia put themselves on the side of Serbian aggressor, making the weak odds-conditions of Croatian defense even worse" is an improvement towards NPOV?).

I am certain you know of the rules of WP:ARBMAC, since you have been quite active in this field for a long time. I am therefore placing you under a revert parole of '''max. 1rv/48h''', for the next three months, on all Yugoslavia-related articles. Together with this limitation, you are required to explain every content revert you make with an informative edit summary and reasoning on the talkpage. As usual, reverts of blatant vandalism (but only that!) are exempt. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * To tell the truth my greatest problem with that is question of my honesty and NPOV. Now even Fut.Perf. is accepting that my actions has been fast revert and not POV
 * I do not see any reason for this ban when I have only protected article together with 3 other editors (user:DIREKTOR, user:Aradic-en and user:Kubura) against POV account
 * Because of all this reasons ban need to be moved--Rjecina (talk) 05:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

IPs again
Could you lend a hand with the Independent State of Croatia article? A couple of IPs are getting to work on quote: "correcting historical errors", such as trying to prove that the NDH was not controlled by Germany. I could certainly use your know-how in dealing with these weekend-editors. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Vote to keep the article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Serb_propaganda_in_the_Yugoslav_wars_%282nd_nomination%29#Serb_propaganda_in_the_Yugoslav_wars —Preceding unsigned comment added by GriffinSB (talk • contribs) 19:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Tuđman request move
Hi

Can you help me with this discussion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Franjo_Tu%C4%91man#Discussion

--Anto (talk) 16:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Croatian map on Dragutin's reign over Syrmia
Look at this Croatian historical map. See the bottom Dragutin's realm? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Did you see it? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy
Well, there was no concensus about the move, remember the Britannica reference? I wouldn't mind moving it, but someone pointed out that Magnatenverschwörung doesn't have many Google results. No need for deletions until we don't know what to do. Would you add the WikiProject Croatia template? I'm not a member. Squash Racket (talk) 07:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's continue on the article's talk page. Squash Racket (talk) 07:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Removed my comment. If everything useful is saved from the article, then no problem. Squash Racket (talk) 07:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Independent State of Croatia article
In response to your comment on my talk page about the Independent_State_of_Croatia section: it would be a lot better if someone who was fluent in both languages — and is very familiar with the subject — re-writes the section. As it stands, it is barely even in English, had almost every sentence has language mistakes. Spylab (talk) 14:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe I am mistaking but user:Kirker job has been to rewrite the section but he is not interested in writing article (??). I am sure that you can rewrite this section ?--Rjecina (talk) 15:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Rjecina. See my comment on Spylab's talk page under "NDH." Kirker (talk) 14:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Croatia Records
I don't see what I have changed from your edit except for improving grammar and removing redundant information already on the Azra page. There was no album mentioned in the article as he was talking about all his albums in general, which he claims were only "leased" to Jugoton (Croatia Records) for a couple of months. So I fail to understand what you are trying to say...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.2.216 (talk) 19:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * What about now? I have to clean it up, as the wording didn't make sense.  No need to re-write stuff from the Azra page, as people can look there for details. --64.46.2.216 (talk) 21:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Accusing others of vandalism
Hello!

I have noticed that yourself and have been involved in a content dispute over several items in the Croatia Records‎ article. On this particular edit, you reverted this editor's good faith contribution and you called him a vandal in your edit summary. According to WP:Vandalism, vandalism is a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. The above edit that you reverted was made in good faith, even if it was incorrect and even if the user refuses to discuss the issue with you. I will ask you to please take a look at what vandalism is not and pay particular attention to NPOV violations and Stubbornness and you will see that the editor above is not a vandal. A part of your edit summary stated Writing POV statements without neutral sources of statements is against Wikipedia NPOV policy which is 100% true but that does not make it vandalism if the other person believes he is improving Wikipedia. All in all, it is very poor practice to accuse others of vandalism because you're involved in a content dispute with them. Please be more careful with such accusations. Thanks! SWik78 (talk) 12:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've removed that passage again. The whole of it was poorly sourced; the notability of that whole issue was never demonstrated (a single interview where some newspaper gave the guy the opportunity to express his claims? It's not even gone before a court?), and even if it was borderline notable, there'd be hardly grounds for more than a single sentence. Moreover, the passage was poorly written. If people must have the issue covered, a simple, single sentence is sufficient: "Croatia Records has been the object of a controversy raised by singer X over royalty rights to songs by band Y from the 1980s. X has named a sum of Z Euros which he claims the company owes him." Why treat this more deeply at all? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

RE: Stalking
WP:STALK describes stalking as following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.

Let me make a few points here:
 * 1. My intent is not to annoy or distress you.
 * 2. I am not following you around nor do I edit all the same articles as you. My edit history, as you claim, actually proves you incorrect. If you want, you can take a look at my contributions or a summary of my edits to see that I actually spread my contributions all over this project, not concentrating on any particular user or topic.
 * 3. As can also be seen in the two links provided above about my contributions, I spend a lot of time figthing vandalism on Wikipedia. In trying to assume WP:Good Faith and trying not to WP:BITE newcomers, I've reverted vandalism warnings by other editors who inapropriately accused others of vandalism, hence I notified you about your inapropriate action. I'm not trying to get you blocked but, the same way as I fend off vandals, I will protect the non-vandals from being accused as such. There are a lot of anonymous IP editors out there who contribute very well to Wikipedia and who are WP:BOLD in their edits. They should be welcomed, not scared away.
 * 4. I don't have a favourite administrator, as you claim, nor am I setting up any kind of a trap on SAO Western Slavonia.
 * 5. You're taking this too personally. I'm not attacking you. I am commenting on your edits, not you as an editor.
 * 6. I will continue to monitor certain Balkan related articles, especially ones relating to the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s, in order to help keep them neutral and non-disrupted.

Feel free to let me know if you have more concerns. Thanks. SWik78 (talk) 15:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * By the way, I would be glad to get a second or third opinion from a neutral party to help you and myself determine whether the edit you reverted by can be considered vandalism as you claim or if it's a good faith edit as I claim. SWik78 (talk) 15:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Let me see... If have recieved on 16 March revert ban and only 2 days latter you have given me first warning ?? Yes after seeing mistake you have reverted your warning few hours latter but this has not changed fact about warning.
 * On other side your revert in article SAO Western Slavonia is telling many things about your editorial style !! It will be very interesting day when you write demand for becoming administrator :)
 * Do not worry stalking problem will be solved. --Rjecina (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The warning you bring up was, admittedly, brought up by erroneous research on my part. I was wrong to post it at that time (hence the retraction) but I still believe it was valid in all the other points it made. I retracted it because I was incorrect on the reason why I posted it in the first place and I did not want to blanket accuse you of random offences at random times. However, all the points I made in the above warning still do apply and that in no way constitutes stalking or harassment on my part. SWik78 (talk) 16:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, don't get disturbed. We know about the "don't bite the newcomers" rule, but that doesn't mean that newcomers have right bully the older users. Also, admins should take a better look. It's not OK to allow to "newcomers", in fact, SPA accounts of "famous" trolls, to disturb and annoy the old users, that proved to be creative and cooperative. Admins should recognise the problem, and follow those disruptive "newcomers" that play dumb. These "newcomers" behave as if they don't know anything (but they know, because they are "old customers" of Wikipedia, their edit pattern and interest areas shows that), and return/draw the discussions and articleversions to points that were previously discussed. Bye, Kubura (talk) 08:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Timeline of Yugoslavian breakup
Please please please Rjecina. Grammar. Either present tense or past tense. Never present perfect. And no progressive aspect either. And don't use noun phrases without articles. Please practice it:
 * "Protesters are asking that Kosovo become republic" => "Protesters ask that Kosovo become a republic"
 * "Presidency is sending special forces to stop demonstrations and it is declaring state of emergency" => The presidency sends special forces to stop the demonstrations and declares a state of emergency"
 * "Ivica Račan has become president of Croatian communists against wishes of Yugoslav Army" => "Ivica Racan becomes president of the Croatian communists against the wishes of the Yugoslavian Army.

etc. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding to this article : I decided to included all the events up to 2008 and independence of Kosovo. not just articles up the official declaration of Croatian,Slovenian etc independence. It will show the full context of the events. I think including the data about Kosovo events in 1999 and Croatian war for indepndence is important. Uniting the Serbia & Montenegro has been the initiation of Yugoslavia. Montenegrin independence and Kosovo independence were "the  last nail in the coffin" for Yugoslavia .--Anto (talk) 18:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep
Thanks, will look into it. :) Check out the proposals on the talk page, btw. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

nato
could you explain this one for me. Ban Ray  22:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Going from my experience, I know what a pathetic circus the russian mass media is. Don't tell me about propaganda, you should have seen their coverage of the Georgian presidential elections. And you'd think the NTV - TV6 story would teach people a lesson. But 57 to 20? Do you really buy that? I happen to know some ukrainians (my grandparents from father's side still hold ukrainian citizenship by the way) and most of those I've managed to discuss this with seem to be pro-nato. 47 - 45 seems to be on par with the 2004 presidential elections too. I don't know how reliable the numbers are, but I'm sure they are much closer to reality than those provided by Interfax. Anyway, adding the word Russian was my initial solution too, at least for now, because, in all honesty, the idea of having Interfax as source for an encyclopedia doesn't appeal to me. Ban  Ray  22:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Vojvodina Serbs
...have had a total of 47 elections and sessions of their parliament over the age of more than two hundred years. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla
You deleted comments from the talk page of this article with the comment that they were by a banned user. Where is there evidence that the IP address in question 79.101.214.34 is banned from editing? Thanks. Edison (talk) 18:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You stated on my talk page that a banned user was doing IP edits from addresses starting with 71, unlike this one, which starts with 79. I question your statement "I am controling all articles for which this user has shown interest and deleting all his comments." Has this been discussed at WP:ANI or has there been an Arbcom decision or other process> Are there checkuser results to show the other IP editors are the same as the banned user? We must be wary of "ownership" of an article. I have no feeling one way or the other for Tesla's nationality or ethnicity, but I do care about the removal of talk page comments in a subject matter dispute in any article. Edison (talk) 19:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

socks confirmed?
Hi, I noticed you recently added  to two pages, User:79.101.214.34‎  and User:77.46.228.11‎. I don't see the confirmation on Requests for checkuser/Case/Velebit. Am I missing something? Toddst1 (talk) 19:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC) Followed link. never mind. Toddst1 (talk) 19:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Srebrenitza article
Hi, I think you should stop attacking this guy for his Srebrenitza article - people join Wikipedia in order to add things they see that aren't there. I had this myself, and I thought it was really offputting. TylerDurden1963 (talk) 11:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

And that's because
After the last experience, I've tended to steer clear of putting new things up. In this particular case, I saw the discussion and it reminded me too much of the last fiasco. Don't you people have better things to do than crush people before they have a chance to properly create their entries? TylerDurden1963 (talk) 11:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppets
Hi. Just to say that I'd support you if you suggested that those three editors at Articles for deletion/Baronetcy of Srebrenica should be investigated. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I've listed it myself. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

You are talking about me on your page, behind my back. This is distasteful, and unfounded. DrHollisCollier (talk) 14:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It has to be discussed somewhere. If the accusations are unfounded, then you have nothing to fear from the sockpuppet investigation. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Moreover, I notified you of the investigation on your talk page, and you deleted the notice! Cordless Larry (talk) 14:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

South Slavic Diacritics
Hi

Regarding the discussions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Franjo_Tu%C4%91man#Requested_move

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Novak_%C4%90okovi%C4%87/Archive_1

I'd like to send this issue on WP:Arbitration. Not just about South Slavic languages, but also for other languages using diacritics (Finnish, Hungarian,Czech;Irish, Spanish...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Iricigor/diacritics

--Anto (talk) 17:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Oj Hrvatska Mati
This song is from the Austro-Hungarian period, so its copyright would have expired anyway. However, I'm pretty sure such folk songs (including the Jasenovac song) should not be eligible for copyright as they don't have a single known author and their lyrics have changed over time.--Thewanderer (talk) 12:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Operation Storm
Please don't worry that I'm making assumptions that the source is accurate. I am no language expert, and definitely can't work with any native languages of the area (with a dictionary in hand, I can read a bit of German, and speak a little more Japanese).

At this point, I'm literally editing -- working on the flow, which, for example, is the reason I've put in a lower layer of subheadings. Where I definitely lack knowledge is being able to understand the significance of events, and even having a mental (or physical if someone can draw it) map of the operation. There is, of course, a graphic of a map in the infobox, but it's hard to read the details. It does seem to have green and red arrows that are probably troop movements, and, if the text could refer to them, would make the article immensely easier to understand. Looking at the map history, it's from a CIA report. If someone has the physical document, it probably would help if they could scan it at just a little higher resolution.

By significance, for example, I mean the effects of a particular town being captured or road being blocked. Was the attack on the antiaircraft the only NATO action that affected this operation? I have read several papers on NATO issues in intelligence analysis in the Balkans, but I haven't matched up specific dates.

What also would help, probably written up as a table, would be an "order of battle", going a little further than the names of units, and giving some idea of their combat power and starting location. By combat power, a rough idea of manpower would be a good start. Croatian brigades seem to be the best documented as far as number of troops, but it appears that an ARBiH corps is either only partially present, or, from the one link I found, smaller than a Croatian brigade. The other side is harder for me to understand. While the 21 Kordun Corps is mentioned, I have no idea of its strength.

If any of these units are especially well, or especially badly, armed, that would be worth knowing.

Yes, if we can work together, I hope I can help the articles. There is a discussion going on at User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5, trying to find ways to help articles where there are POV discussions. Your ideas would be welcome, if I am helping -- maybe that's an example of how a neutral editor can help with the organization, flow, and need for references of the article, and asking questions that can be worked out on the talk page. Another way of dealing with controversial subjects is what Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation has done; they do have a lot of rules, but they also seem to have found a way to work out disagreements, primarily on the talk page.

I have relatively little knowledge of the area, which, may help, because I really don't know enough of the issues to have a particular POV. Where I do have experience that can help is in describing military operations. What I may be able to do, in editing this, is asking questions that help understand what happened. For example, there's the air attack on radars, but then no additional information on NATO actions. If NATO did do something, which could have been attacks on actual forces or supplying intelligence, that belongs in the article. If there was one isolated attack on a radar, it may not be significant -- the question is that if this (and any other) NATO attacks had not occurred, would the outcome have been different? Truly, I have no idea of the answer to that question, but someone might.

Howard

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 15:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok
Im not very good with wikipedia, so if you can teach me from the very basics?

Flobthelog (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Greater Slovenia
Take a look at Articles for deletion/Greater Slovenia (2nd nomination). Slovenians try to delete the article Greater Slovenia as if the concept never existed. Please participate in the discussion, the article has been thoroughly sourced. -- Imbris (talk) 20:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Some sources (not yet included in the article) - here - Talk:Greater_Slovenia. -- Imbris (talk) 23:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Tomislav II of Croatia, 4th Duke of Aosta
Some users requested a move to Aimone, Duke of Aosta. I opposed that and invite you to do the same. We have successfully opposed the move once before - we will do the same - but we need your help. -- Imbris (talk) 00:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * (Obvious Canvassing by Imbris; stop.) Please vote on the facts, not on "who's your best friend". Should you decide to join in, I'm hoping we can count on a constructive input on your part. see you around :) --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 00:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

His Royal Majesty, King Tomislav II?
I just want to make it clear why I'm supporting that rename: I'm not trying to support the oppressive, corrupt, hegemonist Kingdom of Yugoslavia, its because calling that Italian, Aimone, a "King of Croatia" is not only incorrect both de jure and de facto, but is also an insult to the memory of the real Croatian Kings, as well as to the very people of Croatia, whose national legacy is in danger of being tainted by an altogether cheap fascist attempt at legitimizing their failing rule.

We all know he was invited and instated by the Ustaše, but my argument is based on the fact that he never de faco ruled Croatia in any shape or form. He was never crowned, never ratified by the Sabor, never performed functions of state, the guy didn't even set foot in Croatia. I don't think "King of the Independent State of Croatia" can be allowed by Wikipedia policy, as that was not his title. All in all, I guess I hope you may change your stance. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 02:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Director is doing reverse historical analysis. He is trying to imply that current International law has to do with what happened to the World in WWII. This is blasfemy to any and every historian. The memory of the Croatian kings will not be smirged. And facts exist about the Crown of Zvonimir and other deeds that Tomislav II made. Tomislav II would not even deserve an article in any encyclopaedia if this king of ISC was not in his biography. This is what Director wants to do, delete this from the history books.

It is good to explain to the Wiki community that ISC has not abided the Croatian people which under the Croatian Peasant Party was for a republic. Pavelic sold every ideal of any Croatian but what this have to do with Tomislav II. He was a person, a womeniser, a dandy and received a crown of Croatia (together with the powers that were transferred to the crown). He granted noble titles and wrote to the Croatian State Parliament, I think that one of his messages to the Croatian people has been broadcasted in the ISC and his messages appeared in newspapers.

The Director wants everybody to belive that there are no facts. He should look into Kisić-Kolanović, Nada : NDH i Italija, Zagreb : Naklada Ljevak, 2001. and Matković, Hrvoje, Designirani hrvatski kralj Tomislav II., vojvoda od Spoleta: povijest hrvatsko-talijanskih odnosa u prvoj polovici XX. stoljeća, Naklada Pavičić, Zagreb 2007. ISBN 978-953-6308-73-6.

I have briefly read the first one but not managed to find time to read the second one. Do you have access to that book to help with facts only. This would even change Directors oppinions if he were a historian and not a propagandist. Imbris (talk) 18:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * We can even discuss that portion where Pavelić becames the head of state as dubious because:
 * Law decree on the Crown of Zvonimir was still valid, Pavelić didn't get that Law decree abolished
 * The crown was still in possession of the Duke, with his son Zvonimir being the King or better yet Heir to the Throne, Crown Prince Zvonimir II.
 * Yes he declared the Treaties of Rome unvalid but what about the domestic Law which guaranteed the possesor of the Crown rights of reigning.


 * Pavelić could have been head of state but this has not diminished the domestic Law (even if Pavelić could have changed it whenever he wanted) and thus the reign of Zvonimir II with proxies until becoming of age to reign on his own. In this case (only this case) where Pavelić declared him the head of state Zvonimir II would be considered the pretender on the Croatian throne.


 * So why weak oppose.


 * Imbris (talk) 22:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I am starting to have serious doubts about you, Imbris, I can't remember how many times I told you that only his de facto rule is in question. You just ignore and ramble on away. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Please if you have anything to say - say it on my talk page - this is not the place for discussing my positions but positions of Rjecina. And he did rule - 'de facto with Peter II not ruled at all. -- Imbris (talk) 22:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

LoL, yet you started the discussion here, not me. :D -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 23:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

re: Operation Storm
What's the problem again? I didn't quite understand -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Operation Storm unit size
It may or may not be reasonable to assume other brigades were the size of the one you cite -- I just don't have enough information. In countries with long-standing militaries, the size of a given unit tends to be reasonably constant; NATO does have guidelines so you can make comparisons between countries. Even so, a battalion or brigade may have assorted attached units before it goes into the field. The U.S., quite recently, has been standardizing the composition of what are called "brigade combat teams", where, earlier, brigades and corps were temporary tactical formations of fairly arbitrary size, while battalions and divisions had basic standard tables of organization.

The NATO meaning of corps has been a tactical headquarters for an ad hoc group of divisions and sometimes brigades. Several countries, however, use or have used corps as a regional, not tactical organizations. The Soviets and WWII Japanese rarely used the term "corps" at all; they used "army" as an equivalent, where a NATO army is made up of two divisions or more.

Some countries, and especially undergrounds, attach large unit names to small forces, for psychological effect. IRA brigades had a couple of hundred soldiers, not several thousand.

So, in a roundabout way, this documentary may be absolutely accurate about the size of a specific brigade, but it's not clear if that can be generalized. Thank you much, however, for getting this information, which certainly is a start.

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

re
But that would be boring, they would all agree. What they would need is User:Imbris to add a little spice by contradicting them just for the sake of it. :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 06:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Here:

Kneza Miloša 24

11000 Beograd, Srbija

+381 11 3616-333

Hm, it seems as if you have picked the worst timing. ;) It must be something urgent. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Now you have me intrigued. :) What's it about? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 01:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Time to convince your relatives to vote for an option? ;D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Timeline
Thanks for going to NPOV in the intro :). I didn't mean secessionist in a bad way, as I am from Macedonia, but I can understand how it might sound POV-ish to others. Again, thanks.  Balkan Fever  12:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Re
We'll maybe I should change my vote... I just don't think that Croatian and Serbian "Helsinkis" have a neutral POV. And the United Nations General Assembly can mean anything, do you mean statements by UN representatives? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 13:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Why do you think that, DIREKTOR? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Montenegro
I have been searching through old documents and reading them in detail in an attempt to reconstruct the entire event. What was the argument of Nicholas and his supporters at the end of 1918? That the Podgorica Assembly was unconstitutional. However, reading the responses from the Montenegrin Council, the Serbian government and the Allied powers - I have just become aware that that is actually false!

According to the (art. 16) very Constitution of the Princedom (Kingdom) of Montenegro, if the Monarch deserts his country and people, he is considered to have forfeited his legal rights. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I have also discovered that those (Chicago Tribune) were just Italian allegations, and that the International commission - mandated by the Allied Great Powers - had disproved them, and also recommended official condemnation of Italy's involvement (similar to Serbia and Montenegro's in the wars in Croatia and Bosnia only recently), they also established that Italy was fabricating a conflict in an effort to destabilize the Adriatic and make it ripe for spreading influence in Albania and Montenegro (old Venetian target points for expansion of influence across the Balkans).

It would also be interesting to read this what the Italian General at Dobrota ordered to a police commissary of Grahovo, Nikola Kovačević:

You must hold out for a couple of months longer, I can give you no money at present, but I can take you on a steamer to San Giovanni, where we have a camp of the King's friends; and from there you can easily go to Italy.

''In a military way, the Serbs can now do nothing. They had tremendous losses in the war; and in two months the King of Montenegro will return or else there will be an Italian occupation. '''Work hard, my friend. I want you, in the first place, to set houses on fire; then to shoot officers and officials who are for Yugoslavia. You should also rob the transports.' --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The whole force at the time of the National Skupština consisted of about 200 men, ten of whom were Serbs from the old kingdom—and if anyone maintains that 200 men could impose their will upon a population of 350,000 which has arms enough and is skilful in the use of arms, he makes it clear that he knows little of the Montenegrins.


 * Actually, we should evade internet links at all costs possibly - most of it is trash and dump propaganda (from either side of view). We should refer to books themselves. You have this one online.


 * At least it's far less POV than Gvozdenovic's, Nikola's or whomever's first hand propaganda, or the trash from the Doclean Academy of Sciences and Arts. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been thoroughly searching through what happened in the old days, and it appears that Jovan S. Plamenatz, while he was in Manhattan, tried to convince the U.S. government the Montenegrin independence is the true cause, elaborating a theme called "Serbian historical right" (lol) and how 50,000 Serbian troops are oppressing more than 2,000,000 Montenegrins'. :))) It also appears that Nicholas had claimed that a restored Montenegro should include the City of Shkoder of north Albania, the Bay of Kotor, Upper Dalmatia with Dubrovnik, Herzegovina and Bosnia. :D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Re
Thank you for bringing the matter to my attention. I believe User:Kubura and AlasdairGreen may be interested in this as well. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's the argument you'll need. Excuse about "revolt because of change in Croatian constitution, in which have lost their status" doesn't stand. If you read Osnove hrvatskog Ustava from 1974, there it says (I don't have the article by me here), it is spoken there about SR Croatia as national state solely of Croats (singular form was used in the definition). It does mention "joint combat of Croats, together with Serbs and other nations", but for the national state of Croats. I owe you the reference. Osnovna načela Ustava SRH, odlomak I: "...utvrđeno je da JE hrvatski narod zajedno sa srpskim narodom i narodnostima u Hrvatskoj....... izvojevAO ... u zaj. borbi sa drugim narodima i narodnostima Jugoslavije u NOR-u i socij. revoluciji ...nacionalnu slobodu, te uspostavIO svoju državu - SR Hrvatsku." As you see, only singular form is used. '''Ustav SRH, čl. 1.': "SR Hrvatska je: - nacionalna država hrvatskog naroda - država srpskog naroda i  - država narodnosti koje u njoj žive." Serbs weren't in any higher position than other nationalities in SR Croatia, although they are mentioned specifically, but nothing more. Croatia is national state solely to Croats. Jedino je Hrvatima SR Hrvatska nacionalna država, ostalima je samo "država". Rad odakle sam ovo izvadia je: Dunja Bonacci Skenderović i Mario Jareb: Hrvatski nacionalni simboli između stereotipa i istine, Časopis za suvremenu povijest, god. 36, br. 2, str. 731.-760., 2004.. Now I have to dig into Narodne novine, to see the constitution from 22 Dec 1990. Kubura (talk) 13:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The question is that of the mention of the Serbian name in the Croatian constitution. The Croatian Serbs indeed did not have any special privileges in SR Croatia. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 13:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * However, let us also remember that the tri-unity of the three peoples (Muslims, Serbs and Croats) of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was also just on paper, and that the three peoples had enjoyed no special privileges they do now. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Fact and dubious
We all love these, but we don't need quite so many. Thanks for contributing, but a reference does not need a fact tag directly after it. Thanks for your understanding!  weburiedoursecrets inthegarden  21:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

English grammar
Rjecina, sorry for repeating this, but you really need to make more of an effort to get your grammar right. You keep making the same errors, especially in history articles and in that "timeline" article, again and again. As I told you earlier: please never use the present perfect in historical narrative, and never use the present progressive for simple statements of fact or sequences of events. It's not: "this article is speaking of...", but "this article speaks of...". It's not "the republic has declared independence", but "the republic declared independence" (or, within a timeline format: "... declares independence...". The progressive and the perfect are used much, much, much less frequently in English than you think. Come on, it's really not that difficult, is it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't worry about it Future, it gives me something to do ;). But yes, Rjecina, in the timeline use present tense or imperfect tense. Not a very big deal though, I am happy to fix any mistakes.  Balkan Fever  11:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As am I :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 11:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

ANI
You'd better take a look. Squash Racket (talk) 18:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Fault Cause
Other BOT revereted the article while LemmeyBOT was editing. I've reverted the change. --Lemmey talk 17:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

FRY Timeline
And would you support? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Re
Where does it say that, can't find it :)? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 10:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (Oh I see :P) No problem, I'll just write "Spalatum, Iadera, and Tragurium", that should keep everybody happy. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 06:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to say I don't know much about the conflict there, the article was nominated for deletion previously but passed so you'll have to bring new "evidence". Could you explain your deletion arguments further? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 06:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * wtf! how did Srbosjek (knife) survive then!? If they did find some kind of source, then it must be fully refuted per WP:SOURCE. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 06:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I suspect you read this ? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 06:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would, of course, but here's the problem: it passed a deletion nomination, which means that I should first have a good look at the thing and establish a good reason and argument for its deletion, bringing up new evidence, so to speak. I just don't know enough about the discussion to get that involved, and I really don't feel like reading through the whole discussion(s). That's why I asked you if you could explain your deletion reasons in more detail? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 06:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that these guys that created this article appear to believe they have good sources, and the nomination here was successful because they had no good sources. Now they appear to have found them as this nomination  failed. --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see. Here's what we ought to do: we should write up all even remotely "verifiable" sources, and expose them one by one in the deletion reason. The problem is that I don't have the time to read through the whole discussion, and you seem to understand the whole matter. Therefore I propose you post me a list of the opposition's "normal" sources and the reasons for their unreliability, I will then go through them, formulate the argument itself and propose the deletion, ok? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Deal, we should get that disgrace off Wikipedia. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

A book for you
Here's a 1400-page (pdf) book, free of all new-composed or revisionist-revived *versions*. It's Historija naroda Jugoslavije, Zagreb, 1960. Watch out, it's 400 MBs. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, no reason why. It's a joke after all. ;-)
 * BTW, did you see the book so far? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm? No, actually I don't. Why are you surprised? :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well they do. Even distinctively! However they do not deny the fact that one, narrowable, ethnic group inhabits the lands from Kosovo to Istria.
 * Wait to hear "Serbian tribe [also] called Croats" from even non-Byzantine sources (Slavic, ancient). ;-) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Wait, what do you mean by "Snova pobuniše se Hrvati i Dukljani...? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Aha! It's when Kresimir sent a detachment of troops to assist the Docleans, for which afterwards Byzantium attacked Croatia, if memory serves me well...right? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

re
Of course, I'm not finished yet. I was merely trying to reorganize the pics. btw, sorry I couldn't get more involved in the Srbosjek thing, I'm very busy cleaning up and organizing the WW2 Yugoslav articles. I could fix the grammar in your request, but I'm afriad you will have to request the deletion if you don't mind waiting, in any event you have my vote :). -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Kopljanik
Ok, we've got another one. This guy appears to be POV-pushing on all sorts of historic/ethnic articles (see his contribs). He's another Serb nationalist weekend-editor. I reverted almost all of his edits, and he should be reported at once for the removal of referenced info on the Crasova article. I also wonder if he has anything to do with User:Deucaon. Would you care to do the honors? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 23:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser case
You recently compiled and listed a case at requests for checkuser. A checkuser or clerk has requested you supply one or more diffs to justify the use of the checkuser procedure in the case, in accordance with the procedures listed in the table at the top of the requests for checkuser page. For an outcome to be achieved, we require that you provide these diffs as soon as possible. This has been implemented to reduce difficulties for checkusers, and is essential for your case to be processed. A link to your recently-created case which has this information missing is here. Thanks for your co-operation. -- lucasbfr  talk 11:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC), checkuser clerk.

Vandalism on Kordun
Have you ever seen anyone with this IP before ? They will not stop vandalising Kordun's page. Any suggestions how to handle him? --Jesuislafete (talk) 03:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll keep an eye out on Ivo Andric's page. I've seen the "source" he has tried to put forward and they are not reliable as the ones already there. While Andric was a self-declared Yugoslav (and no one denies that), there is also no denying he was born into a Croat Catholic family. --Jesuislafete (talk) 04:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Glad to see you managed to get that puppet halted. --Jesuislafete (talk) 23:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

NATO/Italy/Yugoslavia documentation
Would you mind e-mailing me at kiwizerothree@hotmail.com the best Serbo-Croatian documentation of the NATO/Yugoslav alliance? I am in touch with a historian at the Woodrow Wilson Centre's Cold War International History Project, who would be very keen to see anything you could pass on. Kind regards Buckshot06(prof) 20:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Re
Ok I'll lend a hand. First of all, are you sure the guy is a sock of User:Velebit (Velebit is banned, right?) If so, we'll simply report him and revert his edits. Any evidence you could provide would be good, if necessary I'll write up the report itself. Also, do you have any sources on Andrić's parentage. To be honest, I always thought he was a "Yugoslav by nationality" from a Bosnian Serb family. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 01:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 10:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Replied.
I've semi-protected the page for two weeks (is that okay?). · AndonicO  Engage. 02:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I've examined your case, and I believe you're right; I've blocked J.A. indefinitely. · AndonicO  Engage. 15:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Meša Selimović
I'm not opposing such a formulation. Instead I'm trying to prevent potential editwars by inclusion of both views (Bosnian and Serbian writer). However, it seems that there is a third view (Yugoslavian writer) and so an option is to mention all of them (Yugoslavian, Bosnian and Serbian writer). Although this may read cumbersome, maybe it's worth trying. All the best. --Biblbroks 's talk 23:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The Greens
Finally found the statements themselves!

The Greens had 4,000 men at arms, outnumbering the Serbian forces.

On the 1920 elections (which were free) on which the Greens called for boycott and after which unification was accepted fully internationally, the turnout was 65.97%. In the following 1923, 1925 and 1927 elections in Montenegro, the Whites regularly won 86% and the Greens 14%. The 1931, 1935 and 1938 elections weren't really free, so information wasn't processed about them. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 00:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The number of total casualties of the Greens is estimated (by Communist-age Montenegrin academic historians) at 150. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:41, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not know if I shall be able to supply you an internet source. The internet contains less than 5% info on the events. I also do not understand what you mean by obscure book?
 * During the Christmas Rebellion/Uprising. The figure later over the years is ca. 1,500 (or 1,542 in 1920 in precise, according to the Gaeta command list).
 * I don't understand the other points..? What have they got to do with this we are talking about? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. Half true. The Montenegrin Committee was not organized by Serbia, but it was financed. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Nicholas, who maintained a court in Neuilly near Paris, had indeed tried to save what saved be can. He addressed Wilson in the name of self-determination of the "Montenegrin nationality" - no joke there! He had in influential political circles of London one or two protector, he strangled Europe with lies about a violent "annexation" of country by the Serbians, armed in Gaeta a Montenegrin legion, organized assaults of bands on Montenegro, but still in the end was just a King peon in the game Italy played on the Adriatic coast against Yugoslavia. Alone by itself an "independent" Montenegro, a box of statist games with a population reaching an average German city, and along with that inhabited by the most purest Serbs, would be a parody by itself.


 * This is another citation I found. It is from Hermann Wendel from 1922, a German Balkanologist historian & reporter-writer. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ...yeah, but I don't get why you posed them to me? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

? I don't get it (the link you gave me). Nor what you're trying to say...? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

User:PIO
How are we going to get rid of him? He's really stubborn... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know you've been dealing with that freak for a while so I wonder if there's some way to get rid of them for good? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Question on Russian syntax
Hi Rjecina, you show as an ru-2 language level. Could you lend some expertise on naming here? We're trying to figure out whether Kolyma or Kolymskiy is the more appropriate usage to describe a mountain range near the Kolyma River. Since we don't have a clue what "skiy" means, we're having a little trouble :) Thanks! Franamax (talk) 05:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Ljubo Miloš
Hey, I had reverted an edit on Ljubo Miloš, back to a version of yours. I noted your edit summary said you had done a reversion as it was an edit by a banned user. Anyway, the same IP had restored the version, then reverted my own reversion. Mind stepping in on this since you're clearly closer to the issue? The IP in question is 72.75.24.245. Thanks! --/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 04:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Alrighty, I figured it was something like that but I decided to err on the side of caution and contact a more involved editor. I thought this IP seemed a little too knowledgeable of our internal processes. --/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

We got a new one; has picked up where the IP left off. I've requested semi-protection for the page. Maybe that'll help. --/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And the page is now semi-protected for 5 days. I'm guessing if our friend comes back after then we can re-request it. --/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 21:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Fra Sotona
Um, why did you remove all the stuff from Magnum Crimen? I.e. why did you remove half the article? We should incorporate your info in the existing accounts, not replace one with the other. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 19:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And you know how much I hate it when Croats are demonized on Wiki, but there are limits, I think, even to objectivity. This "guy" was debateably the worst known monster of the Second World War (though maybe not as in-famous as some others). Auschwitz is only bigger, not worse than his little playground. Its kind of silly to try to be objective about a guy so completely EVIL. There are no two sides to him. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 19:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Socks
Rjecina, lets get rid of User:Velebit's socks once and for all. Since you are more knowledgeable in this matter, please give me the evidence for your sockpuppeteering accusation and we'll write up the report. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 09:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Miroslav Filipović
Why did you remove a large chunk of what seems to be a valid contribution? Ironholds 00:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

72.75.24.245
Checkuser has shown it is highly unlikely that 72.75.24.245 is a sockpuppet as you have claimed. Firstly, stop claiming he is so; it can be taken as a form of personal attack and secondly stop reverting his edits, such as those to Miroslav Filipović. They are useful and yours seem to be related to removing chunks of his work from wikipedia. Iron<b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 09:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You accused him of being a Velebit sock; Requests_for_checkuser/Case/J._A._Comment showed no link between this IP and Velebit. If you are convinced he is, do a checkuser for him directly, if not, don't claim that he is. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 19:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh woops, misunderstood the case nature. My apologies. However, again, the edits appear to be in good faith; removing the information only damages the content of the encyclopedia. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 20:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * But you have no proof that he is a sock of the banned user. Until you do, it is unfair and against wiki-policy to remove or refactor contributions. I would point out it (does) seem likely he is, but regardless you can't remove edits based on the fact that he might be a sock. If he turns out to be one i'll quieten down, apologise and back you up in any kind of edit discussion, but until then it's "innocent until proven guilty". <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 23:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You could try a blanket ban; banning a range of IP addresses instead of a single one? And apologies again for getting the wrong end of the stick. If you want I can get a ban request sent through; I know a couple of nice admins. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 23:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As you said, even if it doesn't work 100% it will still help. I dont know if you'd be able to ban that wide a range, but i'll see what I can do. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 23:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll also send a message to the ISP reporting abuse of the internet connection. I've left a message with a friendly admin detailing his actions and linking to the edit history of other blocked IP's; hopefully that will slow him down a bit at least. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 00:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No need to use strong language. Regardless of country such writing is wrong; In fact, I consider nationalism one of the largest problems with wikipedia. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 01:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia
Not only do I do not know other links, but I know that you'll definitely not be able to find it. :(

Boulder dash. You should've listened to me and downloaded while you still could do that, while the link was valid.

I could perhaps send it to you, but no way I'll manage to do that using yahoo. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have a gmail account, does it also limit to 10 MBs each file like yahoo?
 * Oh and with my below average upload, this (400+ MBs) could take months. Remember, this is practically a whole encyclopedia. Perhaps you have something in precise on your mind, which part of (former) Yugoslavia you're interested at? Here are the (huuuuge) parts:


 * A. JUŽNOSLAVENSKE ZEMLJE POD TURSKOM VLAŠĆU U VRIJEME USPONA TURSKE MOĆI
 * B. USPON DUBROVNIKA I SLABLJENJE MLETAČKE DALMACIJE
 * C. HRVATSKE I SLOVENSKE ZEMLJE U VRIJEME KRIZE FEUDALNOG DRUŠTVA I OBRANE OD TURAKA
 * D. JUGOSLAVENSKI NARODI U DOBA OPADANJA TURSKOG FEUDALIZMA
 * E. OPADANJE DUBROVNIKA, HRVATSKE I SLOVENSKE ZEMLJE POD MLETAČKOM VLAŠĆU
 * F. POČECI APSOLUTISTIČKE VLADAVINE U SLOVENSKIM ZEMLJAMA, OTPOR I SLOM HRVATSKIH VELIKANA
 * G. OBLICI NARODNOG ŽIVOTA
 * H. RATOVI I OSLOBODILAČKI POKRETI OD II. OPSADE BEČA DO BEOGRADSKOG MIRA
 * I. JUGOSLAVENSKE ZEMLJE POD HABSBURŠKOM VLAŠĆU U VRIJEME APSOLUTIZMA
 * J. JUGOSLAVENSKE ZEMLJE POD MLETAČKOM VLAŠĆU I DUBROVNIK U ČASU, KAD SE NA JADRANSKOM MORU POJAVLJUJU NOVE SILE
 * K. CRNA GORA U BORBI ZA NEZAVISNOST
 * L. JUGOSLAVENSKI NARODI POD TURSKOM VLAŠĆU U VRIJEME KRIZE OSMANSKOG CARSTVA
 * M. SAZRIJEVANJE UVJETA ZA POČETAK NACIONALNIH POKRETA I OSLOBODILAČKE BORBE


 * Take your pick, and then I'll write you the Chapters' headings from these parts. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As you wish. But with all this Vlach-controversies that are even grasping the Wikipedia, I disagree that it's something everyone agrees upon. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

:-)
Hope it's OK. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We'll find out fairly soon. There's no reason to revert it though. It doesn't now say anything anyone can argue with. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

AN/I
Your friend the IP address has started a new thread at AN/I about you, unfortunately without the courtesy to inform you about it. See Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents -- AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 15:13, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Now leave everything alone. No more posts. Don't react to anything the IP says. The discussion at AN/I is leading directly to a ban. Leave it alone. It's got a life of it's own now, with only one possible outcome. :-) AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 19:48, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

My comment about the case? Learn to leave things alone. Recognise when there's a momentum going in your direction. You killed your own case stone dead this evening, when it was on the point of an admin block, no questions asked, without an SSP case. Sometimes less is more. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

sockpuppet case
Do you mind if I rewrite it to add additional evidence and make it easier to read? <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 21:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, after looking at the case i've decided i'd prefer not to be directly involved. Your actions have virtually crippled the AN/I report, and I dont want to get involved in a quagmire which I dont believe I can help solve. I'd advise becoming less gung-ho as a result of this; it's just a site, regardless of if you believe your national identity is being offended. I'm going to solve some style errors and move the page to the right location, but that's as far as my contributions go. I may chip in at a later date if this fails to turn into the massive free-for-all I predict it will. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 22:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Montenegro
Pozdrav.Posto vidim da si se ti jedini zainteresovao za clanak o Crnoj Gori,u kojem korisnik Pax Equilibrium uporno širi prosrpsku propagandu,htio sam da te zamolim da mi objasniš kako da osporim njegovu neutralnost,jer nema zivaca da se svaki cas brisem ono sto je on napisao,pa onda on obrise ono sto ja napisem i tako dalje u nedogled.Ne znam najbolje engleski jezik i to je razlog zasto te ovo pitam.Takodje sam zelio da te pitam da li postoji bilo ko kome mogu podnijet zalbu,jer kao sto i sam kazes,bolje se na vrijeme borit protiv propagande,nego sjutra vodit ratove oko toga.Sve najbolje!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petar Montenegrin (talk • contribs) 14:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Lfmao, your approach is precisely the think that makes this whole interaction look suspicious. :D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Puppets
The sockpuppetry case is for any editors, not just us two. With your permission, however, I will consolidate the pages data and correct grammar and spelling to make it easier to read. Just say the word. I would, however, like to talk to you user-to-user, and make a request that you stop chasing after sockpuppets in future. If you find something suspicious, hand it over to an admin or similar instead of chasing it into the ground. Are we agreed? <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 01:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That is acceptable. My main gripe is removing info "because the user is a sockpuppet" without going through the sockpuppet process first, and then telling a user "it's ok, when you are confirmed as a sockpuppet we will remove your contributions." The "When" worries me; rather than an essay WP:DUCK, maybe you should look at policy WP:AGF.

1 July
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from. When removing text, please specify a reason in the edit summary and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's talk page. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the text has been restored, as you can see from the page history. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 22:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain me signification of RANDOM ARTICLE and why is he/she/it important for wiki ? No, that's not my responsibility. What is, is ensuring that unwarranted deletions don't happen: if someone has a bona-fide article--with birth-date--on Wikipedia, they're entitled to a listing on DOY pages, full-stop. If you have doubts about the 'signification' of any article, WP:AFD beckons. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 23:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

serbia
Two problems: "List of Roman Emperors born on territory of today Serbia" is grammatically incorrect. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 23:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

List of Roman Emperors born in Serbia (19)
I've moved it to a correct heading (List of Roman Emperors born in Serbia) and informed the editor who created it. This should sort it out. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 23:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have written "territory that today belongs to serbia" in the article to explain that. Page titles are ultra-important; if you could get someone who speaks fluent english to make them in future i'd be grateful simply because it means less work for other editors. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 23:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

List of Roman Emperors born in Serbia
A tag has been placed on requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia, because it appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion discussion. If you can indicate how it is different from the previously posted material, place the template hangon underneath the other template on the article and put a note on the page's discussion page saying why this article should stay. Administrators will look at your reasoning before deciding what to do with the page. If you believe the original discussion was unjustified, please use deletion review instead of continuing to recreate the page. Thank you. Deor (talk) 02:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for pointing that out. I've notified the article's creator about the speedy nomination. Deor (talk) 03:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit reversion
I've warned you before about this. You cannot revert and abuse a user based on the idea that they might be a vandal! If it's blatant vandalism, fair enough, but until you have proved he or she is, stop removing their edits as "vandalism". <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 13:07, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to amend WP:UE
I just made a draft of a proposal to amend WP:UE to avoid "reliable source" misuse. Take a look and tell me what do you think. Admiral Norton (talk) 23:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

1928
The reason is simple: not an internationally significant event. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 21:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

So? --CalendarWatcher (talk) 21:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: Working together
You take Wikipedia too hard for yourself, but what are you trying to tell me. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 08:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

spamming of russian tzar pages
please stop spamming russian tzar pages. your edits are vandalism —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiumena (talk • contribs) 11:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Rjecina, please continue adding infoboxes to articles that would benefit them. This is in no way spam, and Fiumena has been reported to the Administrator's noticeboard for apparent stalking, as the only edits by this account are reversions of your edits. --Fugu Alienking (talk) 11:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * User Fiumena had been blocked now. . Excirial ( Talk, Contribs ) 11:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Mistakes in information about the anti-bureaucratic revolution
If I have made a mistake in providing information about the anti-bureaucratic revolution it was not meant as intentional, the source that I got the information from was the BBC documentary "Death of Yugoslavia" which only mentioned the successful revolt in Montenegro and not the unsuccessful one. You should add the information you have found on the failed revolt to articles or sections of articles which are about that.--R-41 (talk) 02:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Uskoks
"No way. Serbia do not exist in 16-17 century so Serbian soldiers can't exist"

Then Croatia was only "The remains of the remains" and most Uskoks weren't Croatian soldiers at all, but Dalmatian.

See the logic? :-) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:00, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, do whatever you wish, I do not mind at all. I will put your talk page on my watch list as well to help you out too :).
 * Though regarding Uskoks, even Gunther E. Rothenberg describes them as Croatian from mainly the Gulf of Quarno, in The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 33, No. 2. Of course, they are repeatedly mentioned as under the Austrian/Hapsburg territory. --Jesuislafete (talk) 22:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That's because most of Dalmatia is Croatia. However, the Bay of Kotor is not.
 * Considering the problem of the narrowed down or wide view of the Uskoks, the disambiguation page I've just created should fix the problem easily. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Shared IPs
Hi Rjecina. I looked into those IPs you listed. As far as I can tell, all the 66.217.x.x IPs are the same user; unfortunately, I don't think we can do ranged blocks...

As for the 71.252.x.x IPs, they are likely the same user and there is a good possibility that it is the same user as the one at 198.24.31.122. That 198 IP is registered to the Fairfax County, Virginia government (most likely a computer at a local public school or library), which is the same geographic location as the user at 71.252.x.x. Hope this info helps! Best, epicAdam (talk) 23:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think reverted vandalism requires an effort from the whole community, we can't rely on a comparatively small handful of editors to take on all the vandalism by themselves. I wish there were better bot algorithms that could automatically identify users based on the type of vandalism they commit, rather than just trying to identify IPs and users (a futile effort). I personally like the policy on the German version of Wikipedia where changes made to an article by anonymous or new users do not immediately appear on the page, but rather go to a separate "preview" page where they remain until approved by a more senior editor or until the hold expires. That system preserves Wikipedia as something that anybody can edit but at the same time provides a certain amount of stability and discourages vandalism (since the edit changes are not instant). Hopefully we can institute something like that on the English version. Best, epicAdam (talk) 23:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Miroslav Filipović
I don't have an issue with replacing what you say are badly-sourced pieces of article given the evidence you have presented, but at least make sure the replacement text is copyedited. And please leave an edit summary. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 08:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The AfD
Apparently there are other sources being presented here. If you recall, I said this would work if these sources were the only ones as you stated. Now I must say I doubt the outcome. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I translated that piece of text as you requested, you can copy/paste it at your convenience. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, sry, didn't see :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The knife appears truly to have existed. Sorry, Rjecina, the matter is proven beyond reasonable doubt. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no 100% fullproof evidence, but this is a small obscure knife from a small obscure country, the kind of evidence that is presented is in my view sufficient to allow for its mention on Wiki. Even if it did not exist, the post-war myth is notable enough. However, the question of wording and formulation that would reflect the amount of evidence present is still open. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

biographybase.com
Thanks for adding references to articles such as Ivo Andrić. Referencing is an area that needs a lot of improvement in wikipedia. One of the cites you added references http://biographybase.com. Unfortunately this site cannot be used as a WP:RS reliable source since it is a several year old copy of wikipedia. I removed that particular citation. The others you added look good at a first glance. Quale (talk) 07:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Miroslav Filipović‎
Have you considered asking an admin to semi-protect the page so that IP's and new users can't edit it? <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 13:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll help if there is a problem with new IPs, but I think you should wait a while because there is not a lot of editing to warrant a semi-protect. --Jesuislafete (talk) 16:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Miroslav Filipović
I will have a look at those Latin documents. But it probably won't be until Monday that I will be able to give it much attention. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 16:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeahh..
Your talkpage message made perfect sense; "I know this is taking up a lot of your time, so i'll direct you to something else that can take up even more time". Eastern european, particularly serbian/croatian/so on articles are something I'm now giving up on. To be honest it's just not worth the effort to spend countless man-hours on a set of articles which you, DIREKTOR, J.A Comment and so on will be arguing over for the next 30 years. <b style="color:#D3D3D3">Ir</b><b style="color:#A9A9A9">on</b><b style="color:#808080">ho</b><b style="color:#696969">ld</b><b style="color:#000">s</b> 17:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Miroslav Filipović‎ - Latin translations
I added translations of two of the three Latin documents you sent to me at the talk page here. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks Rjecina, I am new to Wikipedia. I am just trying to correct the English on the Timeline of the breakup of Yugoslavia page. But I hope others will examine what I have done to make sure I haven't accidentally changed the intended meanings. I am not an expert on this topic, only a native English speaker trying to help.Rilkas (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: Miroslav Filipović
Rjecina, I do not support these particular edits of yours... I helped organize and fix the version you're editing, and I do not agree with your discrediting the collected eyewitness reports from Magnum Crimen. In either case, I would like to keep away from this particular issue for a while. :( --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 09:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Removal
I hope you don' mind that I removed the fallacious comments left by user Joka. Just as a friendly reminder, do not take offense or notice when these types of users leave messages like that on your talkpage: their specific use of phrases and wording is done intentionally to make you feel unknowledgeable of Wikipedia and make you question your integrity and editing. So far, I have not seen anything to support the warnings you were given, so that is why I removed it. Regards. --Jesuislafete (talk) 01:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:ANI
I don't see a notification, so take a look. Squash Racket (talk) 15:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I should have posted notification myself, but you already did it. Joka (talk) 15:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem, you were only four hours late with that at the time I posted here. Squash Racket (talk) 15:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I didnt say I was about to post it here, simply I was unaware that it should be done. So thanks for doing this. There are quite a few editors that Rjecina seems to be harrasing, as can be seen from the coments put there by another concerned user. Joka (talk) 15:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment on reverts
I see four reverts of yours in a six day period whilst there is discussion ongoing on the talkpage. You did not know at the time that these users were banned users, they have only been blocked in the last two days. As such, the 3RR rule applies. As it is now, carry on the discussion on the talkpage regarding this, (and continue to revert blocked editors, though they are not yet banned). You don't need my permission to remove comments from your talkpage, you can do that whenever you want. Regards. Woody (talk) 18:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I included the IP reverts because they are still reverts, no matter who makes them, even if they are an editor cicumventing a block or 3RR. In those cases, they will be found out and blocked as has happened in this case. In terms of Decensi, yes, you can revert on site because he is effectively banned. The edits of banned users (including their socks) can be reverted on site. It is clear that someone operating that amount of sockpuppets will remain blocked indefinitely and as such can be considered banned. Remember, a Ban is different to a Block. Your course of action was correct, alert an admin through WP:AIV, WP:ANI and they will block them. In this case, it is obviously a sock so you can revert, but remember, if it is not 100% obvious, then wait for an admin/checkuser to look into it and deal with it. Regards. Woody (talk) 20:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Re
Ok, but an RfC would make more sense. That's standard in these kind of disputes. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 19:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Re
Pax blocked? That's so hard to imagine that he used this many sockpuppets he usually "got his way" alone anyway by reverting as far as I've seen. I'm shocked by this I'll have to review the case first, thanks for telling me about this. Hobartimus (talk) 20:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And he was a incredibly active user too I don't get how he could edit even more with different accounts. Hobartimus (talk) 20:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The latest sock doing the same edit as the previous ones confirmed before . Hobartimus (talk) 22:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:AIV...
...is only intended for persistent vandals. Reports about sockpuppets are better placed at WP:SSP, where you can make more detailed reports, evidence is saved, and it's easier to respond to comments. If you could, please move your report there so it can be handled easier. Thanks. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 22:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but first and foremost, they're a sockpuppeteer. Since most site-bans relate to sockpuppetry, we need to gather all evidence of multiple account abuse on a single page. The directions at WP:SSP have you create a subpage, which then can contain evidence from multiple cases. At WP:AIV, reports are immediately removed once the account is blocked, and become very difficult to find for later review. Hope this helps some. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 23:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The correct venue for sockpuppetry is WP:SSP. Woody was giving you a general list of the sites where reports can be made, but from what I can tell, he wasn't specifically directing you towards any of those, and he didn't mention several of our other reporting noticeboards. WP:AIV is generally for severe and persistent vandalism that doesn't seem related to anything else, and WP:ANI is for severe and exceptional cases that often require discussion amongst several administrators and other users. If an ANI report doesn't go answered for a while, make a new comment in the same section and someone should notice it shortly. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 23:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser
Hi, Rjecina. I don't know if you have you asked CU's services regarding this case, but I think I've found something interesting. Recently, you've disguised a sockpuppeteer. I've been browsing some of edits of those sockpuppets, and I've found strange coincidence. Remember banned user:Justiceinwiki (banned 22 Nov 2007} and his interest for the article Prebilovci? Here's his case Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Justiceinwiki. See edit history of that article. Take a look who else showed interest. User Kirker (currently, you have talk with him on article about Miroslav Filipović). See his edit history . First edit in 26 May 2007. See his area of interest. Userpage still empty (often case with SPA accounts; though, not necessarily). Does this ring a bell? Who else edited that article? Recent 50 edits: User Kirker appeared 10 Dec 2007. Special:Contributions/62.63.212.13. See vandal revert   (17:03, 18 December 2007). Special:Contributions/217.209.200.153 (14:33, 18 December 2007) See comment on revert. . Kubura (talk) 13:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have sent a note to this snide arehole Kubura on his own talk page. Kirker (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Rjecina, Kubura thinks you should make the checkuser referral, so please go ahead. Or are you both going to back out of it, having started the rumour? If you want to be courteous and tell me why you think I should be investigated, that would be appreciated. At one time I offered to tidy up your dreadful copy before you put it into articles. You chose not to accept that offer, which is perhaps just as well, because I'm no longer sure that you are entirely objective. Also I sometimes can't even understand what it is that you are trying to say. I'm sorry if you think it strange that I sometimes edit stuff after you. Sometimes it's because you or someone else has drawn my attention to something I might want to comment on and sometimes it's because you or someone else have revived an article on my watchlist. Yes, I guess that is very strange. Kirker (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Talk page vandalism
Your vandalism on user pages has been reverted. If you continue you will be blocked. This is your first and last warning.PaxVendetimus (talk) 08:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

First edit and already threatning? Oh, is this you, Pax? and. Kubura (talk) 14:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

And those Marcellogo's ("good" and the "bad" one). Same area of interest, Pax. Kubura (talk) 14:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Speedy Peter
I responded on the article's talk page to your question about who finished second in the killing competition. Kirker (talk) 15:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Rijeka terror attack
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Rijeka terror attack, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. B. Wolterding (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Krajina and rebels
I've tried to fix the Operation Storm intro as best I could. But it is not easy, and the last thing any of us want to do is overload the introduction with information which will be covered in detail throughout the article. I accept that it does need some form of overview, as many (such as I) often consult pages just to see the intro for a taster as to what it is, and then browse elsewhere. Because the Krajina Serbs declared their independence before Croatia, the last time Krajina formed a part of the rest of Croatia was when it was a federal republic in Yugoslavia. If the world never recognised the Serbian republic, then there is no need to say "recaptured", or "regained", or "retook" because the world recognised it as being part of Croatia in the first place. What the government of Zagreb had done in August 1995 was establish sovereignty of the region, which all of Krajina's citizens - regardless of ethnic group - will have been compelled to recognise. That is why I use the term "incorporate": it doesn't indicate that "independent Croatia had it, then lost it, then took it again" which is misleading (as far as being independent goes), and it also doesn't state that "Croatia annexed it" either, which is also misleading since Croatia did have a claim on the land. The rebel business is very tricky, and here more than anywhere we need to be careful. Kosovar Albanians often proclaimed themselves to be rebels, since they regocnised their territory to be within Yugoslavia before 1990, even during the growing unrest from 1981 onwards. Serbs of Krajina had never referred to themselves as rebels, neither had their sympathisers outside of Planet Serbia. Again, it is more a matter of timing: their independence forces were indeed viewed as rebels by Zagreb. Zagreb seccesionists were viewed as rebels by Belgrade. The term is relative, rather like "opponent", one man's opponent is another man's ally. Croatia's over-all success in the whole affair doesn't give editors a green light to present cases in a Pan-Croatian light. As far as heavyweights are concerned: Croatia is Croatia, always has been, its association with former Yugoslav republics are not relevant, not even when discussing matters pre-1991. You see that this leads to confusion and error: hence the reason, an independent Croatia did not retake that what it didn't control as a separate entity! And in a conflict which initially involved the remnants of a once larger army of which Croatian citizens once formed a part (the YPA, JNA), you can see why Croatian soldiers were seen in some quarters are rebels (ie. Croats who took up arms in the very early stages were not members of an internationally recognised military). By the time Croatia was recognised in 1992, the Krajina affair had long been in effect, and who rebels against whom was by then a lost cause. Evlekis (talk) 07:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Re
ok, ok... won't touch the articles :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 21:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Rijeka terror attack
I have nominated Rijeka terror attack, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Rijeka terror attack. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? B. Wolterding (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Category speedy tagging
Hi Rjecina. No reason was given for deletion; see WP:CSD. The category wasn't empty so I was unsure as to the rationale. Best, PeterSymonds (talk)  02:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Za dom
Another one for you. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 20:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: Translation
"For your tireless struggle against Wiki-vandals. In your place I would have lost my patience long ago." :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 23:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sleeper socks
I have a though that leaving all the articles that the PaxEquilibrium socks are attacking unprotected will force him to use up his sleeper accounts. I think User:Thatcher has prevented him from creating new accounts, so his only recourse is to use up older accounts. I know this might be painful for you, but they are easy to spot and revert, and I think this might make the problem go away sooner in the long run. What do you think? Kevin (talk) 23:03, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Amazing. Actually, no I did not know that. I haven't been on wiki in a while. Doesn't surprise me that there are a lot of socks going on, I had a feeling someone was controlling all those. How does the situation go? Is he still creating more socks? --Jesuislafete (talk) 04:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have been checking out his sock puppets contributions.....he really went out of his way to stalk your edits. Congratulations on getting him. Some of his edits are very disturbing. Heh.--Jesuislafete (talk) 04:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ha ha ha! Actually I can totally expect that of him, seeing his real side through his socks now, and his thoughts on Croats, and apparently a strange obsession with Thompson. --Jesuislafete (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Re:
Roughly you can say so... I mean definition of prominent. I met User:MikeBabic already. He's just a kid of some Serb who escaped to Serbia. That's where his indoctrination comes from. I saw that there was some Krajina fighter too? I wonder what his prominance came from? Killing?Zenanarh (talk) 01:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar
Rjecina, you cooked up nice octopussy with the potatoes under peka. Zenanarh (talk) 12:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably...
...another one User:MilanMilutinovic. Zenanarh (talk) 11:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I reinstalled my edits for RSK page. There is a humungous difference between a Serb-dominated JNA, and a JNA where most citizens are Serb. To say that it is Serb dominated reflects that it is purely designed to represent Serb interest (ie. there is conflict inside it between Serbs, and those opposed to Serb intentions, and somehow, Serbs come out more powerful, hence they are dominant). We are talking about numbers, Serbs were highly dominant in number, and that was because we, and Slovenes, and Muslims all defected. Montenegrins did not, and any army in which Serbs are a partner with someone else means that they are all working together for a joint cause. In 1992, I myself fought in Homeland War, so I too for some years ate the propaganda fed to me daily by my superiors and by our government. I was led into believing that I was defending Croatia against Serb nationalizm. What I was told, and later how things actually emerged for me, turned out two totally different things. I don't regret my country being independent, but I don't like to spread lies either. Milosevic and his allies always believed in some kind of Yugoslav federation, even if he wanted to be its sole decision maker. Actual Serb nationalists, never believed in the cause - yhey were in "internal" conflict with Milosevic, but they were not the "dominant" ones. Balkantropolis (talk) 20:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Podgorica Assembly
OK friend, I'll take a look in the afternoon, now I'm at job and can't concentrate normally. Zenanarh (talk) 08:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Language policy of the SFRY
Hi, how much do you know about the language policy? I know that the official language was Serbo-Croatian, but what about Slovenian and Macedonian relative to it? Were they co-official, or just official on a regional level?  Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 08:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This Serbo-Croatian hybrid is wrongly cited: official name of it was "Serbian or Croatian language" or "Croatian or Serbian language" / "Srpski ili Hrvatski jezik" / "Hrvatski ili Srpski jezik". Not "Serbo-Croatian" / "Srpsko-Hrvatski". Serbo-Croatian was vernacular short name of it. Here it became "official" name?! Zenanarh (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The official English name was always Serbo-Croatian. The name "Srpsko-Hrvatski ili Hrvatsko-Srpski jezik" was also used in Yugoslavia. In fact, I own an old dictionary that uses this same term. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Back to my question ;) what was the status of Macedonian and Slovenian relative to the aforementioned hybrid?  Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 08:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The second or post-1945 Yugoslavia had three official languages: Serbo-Croatian (or Croato-Serbian), Slovenian, and Macedonian. See . AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Did they have equal official status throughout the entire country?  Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 11:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, except in the army, which was solely Serbo-Croatian speaking. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

History of Serbia
Thanks for the message. Like you, I hate to get into edit wars with people who have an emotional investment in the subject, on whatever side. Any article on the Balkans is bound to attract controversy, and it's difficult to avoid polemics, which have no place in Wikipedia articles.

You raise specific factual issues which I'm not qualified to address. Why don't you post them on the History of Serbia Talk page? Addressing controversy on the Talk page is not the same as an edit war. If assertions in the article are not supported by legitimate citations (not just other's opinions), then of course you should edit the article accordingly. Reverting back to the uncited assertions is vandalism and should be reported. I'm sure you would be supported by the Admins.

As for the article's grading, I don't think the article is A-class. In fact, I say that it "needs more citations truly to qualify for the B-class rating it's been given." I am looking at the article purely as to style and structure, and on this basis I think it could easily be an A-class article, once the citations issue is addressed. Remember, even A-class or Featured articles can still be edited for accuracy. J M Rice (talk) 16:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Editorial style
OK, Rjecina, after this you are now entirely expelled from the "decent editors" list. You are gone. I would have instantly reverted that series of IP edits on the basis of our core policies of NPOV and RS. But you tried to find some vague "editorial policy" to remove the (deeply erroneous) anti fascist edits. You are a POV pro-Croatia lazy warrior. I will look upon your every edit with contempt and revert it.AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Alasdair, calm down. The edits were terrible and they were against editorial style, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS. Try to assume good faith, and don't throw labels of "not decent" on people. I disagree with Rjecina almost all the time, but this is an overreaction and certainly will not help productive editing in Balkans related areas. A  ni  Mate  23:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with AniMate. I don't think that any Holocaust related article has such descriptions like what kind of installation can be made by one, using a knife and a child. Tortures were definitely made by the monsters, but in my eyes, an user who is pushing 15 lines of the text like that one in the article of 30 lines, is nothing better. We should contribute to an encyclopedia and not to the individual's frustration healing private blogs, forums, etc... If we start to edit articles that way, Wikipedia will turn to compilation of horror and misery made by the human beings, there will be nothing left to glorify our humanity. 21st century is age of information, that's where Wiki belongs. BTW give some credits to Rjecina, he seems to be lonely fighter vs many agenda missionaries, maybe he's not always right, but I've noticed that in some cases there is a space to support him. There were no white and black sides in WWII, no good and bad boys. Just winners and losers (but no sympathy to Fascism, of course). Ustaše are certainly not something that Croats should be proud of, but it doesn't mean that everything written about them is true and objective. Catholic priests and Catholic church were satanized and persecuted in post WWII Yu, it's not some secret. Hypothetically, an objective contributor writting about that should bear it in mind. There's a lot of bias in the sources. And there is almost no source that is not disputed by another one. Total mess. That's why I refuse to edit 20th century in the Western Balkans, I don't have nerves. I respect anyone who has. It seems Rjecina's bad grammatics is his biggest problem. Maybe all of you contributing to the Balkan WWII thematics should be more friendly to each other, to avoid WWIII ;) Zenanarh (talk) 11:50, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Talk: World War II persecution of Serbs
Considering your history with Kirker, your removal of his comments is highly inappropriate. He has a right to voice his opinion, even if he's agreeing with a banned user. I'm concerned this is more about your disagreeing with Kirker rather than an attempt to protect Wikipedia from Pax and his sockpuppets. A ni  Mate  19:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Kirker's interpretation of edit warring and consensus are irrelevant. You can point that out on the page, but you cannot and should not remove his talk page comments. Simple. If you doubt me, why not go ask an administrator. A  ni  Mate  19:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * When posting on administrative boards, new posts always go at the bottom. I moved it for you. A  ni  Mate  20:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you show me the policy that says you must remove any posts made by or related to sockpuppets? I've checked out WP:SOCK, WP:TALK, and WP:BLOCK and cannot find anything to support your actions. A  ni  Mate  21:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Rjecina. I came to this page just now because there is something I want to say to you that belongs here rather than on the talk page of some article. I found that you already have a discussion going on here, so I am adding my own comment in this section.
 * Your suggestion that I am part of a group of editors who act together is offensive and demonstrably untrue. For a start, those other people you mention show more tolerance than me and more goodwill. I don't have much time for "being nice" to idiots. (I am not suggesting that you are an idiot, even if you sometimes behave like one :-).) In fact I am far from being a natural Wikipedian. Look at my response to Animate when he took issue with my attitude towards Kubura. Or look at my impatience with DIREKTOR when he was insisting on "puppet state" and I was arguing that "client state" would be less contentious.)


 * Maybe you think I am unduly pro-Serb, which is how it might look because my work is primarily concerned with one small part of BiH (Kozara and the area between Prijedor, Sanski Most and Banja Luka) at a specific moment in time when Serbs were unquestionably on the receiving end. But one cannot be familiar with Prijedor and the crimes of, for instance, Duško Tadić, without realising that Serbs can be just as capable of dishing it out. I'm just not knowledgeable enough about the more recent history to get involved on Wikipedia.


 * You are fully aware that interest in a specific matter can distort how people perceive you. You face the same problem when you worry that some people will think you are anti-American because of your attitude towards NATO. (An attitude I share, by the way.) But if you still need convincing that I am more concerned with the truth than with any particular agenda, look again at the Pavelić article. You will see that I saw merit even in some of what AP1929 was trying to say.Kirker (talk) 12:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * So nobody can question USHMM? Really? To this day members of the museum's board are embarrassed by the extent to which they allowed their agenda to be steered at the outset by the interests of the Clinton administration. So there was no mention of the Uštaša plan to rid NDH of more than 2 million Serbs. And although the Holocaust denier Tudjman was invited to the opening ceremony, no Serbs were invited. It was not till years later that the USHMM acknowledged the events in NDH to be the start of the start of the Holocaust. (The Holocaust was genocide, remember?).


 * And journalistic sources - even the best of them - will never be the most reliable. Historians will nearly always turn out to be nearer the truth than newspaper reports. (And I say this as a journalist myself.) Your innocent faith in the NYT is touching. But as Norman Finkelstein noted on his website and elsewhere, in one recent year the NYT mentioned Israel several thousand times, and Africa just 35 times. But the NYT DID report (July 1981) that about 3,000 of the 7-8,000 men and youths taken prisoner at Srebrenica made it safely back to muslim territory.


 * But none of this matters anyway, because you have no right to dictate what sources should be used. And it is simply perverse to suggest that information on websites is always less reliable than information taken from books. The truth is, I suspect, that your bias is showing. You know that what the Ustaša did was genocide yet it seems you will go to any lengths to avoiod saying so.Kirker (talk) 01:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So the fact that there are still some Muslims in BiH means that Srebrenica was not genocide? Genocide is the attempt to rid an area of a racial/ethnic group, in whole or in part. In the Srebrenica judgment, ICTY determined that more than 7,000 people were murdered as part of an attempt to remove the group of Muslims (about 40,000) living around Srebrenica. In the villages of Drakulić, Motike,Šargovac, Invanjska and Piskavica on 7 and 12 February 1942, Ustaše murdered all but a handful of ALL the Serbs living in those villages. So you are not doing the Ustaše justice when you say they didn't succeed. A few months later they took away 75,000 people from the hundreds of villages around Kozara (men, women and children, unlike Srebrenica), subsequently killing or starving to death about 45,000 of them. Would they like to hear you calling those efforts another failure? You know that the same sort of thing happened at many other villages. Presumably you are aware of the recorded testimony, for instance, of Artukovićev driver? (I myself have talked at length to Luburićev driver, who lived very close to me here in England.) Also I expect you know how Neubacher reported Pavelićev policy to Hitler, and how Budak explained it. Etc. Etc. Like so many others in your part of the world (on both sides), you claim to be unprejudiced and yet you cannot escape your one-dimensional perspective. I cannot say if I would do any better if I had been born there, but I know that some people do rise above the prejudice.Kirker (talk) 11:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no point arguing about how many Serbs the Ustaša murdered, and how many they expelled. (Both murder and expulsion can contribute to genocide.) It doesn't matter anyway. The fact is that they had a plan to get rid of all of the Serbs, and did their best to implement that plan. Genocide. Period. I notice you have nothing to say about the fact that 99.9 per cent of Serbs were murdered in those five villages between Banja Luka and Prijedor. Genocide again, I'm afraid. Your point about original research is just stupid. Where the facts are not in dispute, we are entitled, even here at Wikipedia, to apply appropriate terminology to those facts. For instance "murder" and "murderous" are widely used in Wikipedia articles and no-one dismisses the use of such terms as OR. (Or perhaps you do?) So why upset yourself when "genocide" is used? It has a more precise definition than "murder," and unlike "murder" its meaning does not change from one country to another according to national laws.

It is ridiculous to say that all countries have committed genocide, but certainly many have done so. Even if they all have, why would that prevent us applying the term to the Ustaša?

If you do nothing else, would you please tell me what makes you think that one or both of my parents was born in Yugoslavia? Have I ever said anything to make you think that? Kirker (talk) 14:16, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * When you say you are a historian, I suppose you mean in your own opinion. Please don't tell me that anyone pays you for such shoddy work and thinking.


 * As always, your narrow, inbred perspective leads you to evade the central points. For instance the fact that the entire Serb populations of five villages were murdered cannot be undone by quoting the present-day demographics of Banja Luka. (What's that got to do with it anyway? Two of those villages are not even in the Banja Luka municipality.) Again whatever happened or did not happen in Foča has no bearing on the simple question of whether genocide occurred in NDH. If you want to point out that Četniks murdered Muslims by the thousand elsewhere in NDH, do so in the proper place by all means. But again it has no bearing on what happened in those villages between Banja Luka and Prijedor in February 1942 and in hundreds of other villages on Kozara later that year.


 * What lay behind that bitter remark "nice, really nice" which you put on my page a while ago? You may remember you have been accusing me of sockpuppetry and other such nonsense, so I am rather surprised you were expecting tender loving care from me. What little thing upset you, exactly?


 * You have said in advance that you will not trust whatever I tell you about my family situation, but I will tell you anyway. If it makes one or two people see what an idiot you are, the effort won't have been wasted.


 * I was born in the UK and until the time of John Paul II's second visit to Zagreb (by which time I was well into my 50s) I knew very little about the Balkans. But I've been interested in genocide for many years and have done some work for a world-respected genocide research institute (www.aegistrust.org) near my home in the English Midlands, which grew out of Britain's first holocaust education centre and museum. My mother's grandparents and ancestors as far back as about 1750 were farmworkers in the northwest of England. We don't know anything about them before that, so you are probably right. They must have emigrated from the Balkans. My father, who has probably never heard of Yugoslavia, was born in New Zealand and returned there around 1980 and since then I have had no contact with him. We know very little about his family except that his grandfather emigrated from Scotland (within the UK) to NZ. But yes, you're right, his mother's family must have come from the Balkans. You know my full name, so you should have no difficulty researching all this a bit more deeply, since it is obviously important for you.


 * No apology expected. I class you with Kubura in that respect. In any case, how could a self-styled historian possibly be wrong? One lsat thought: could your parents be Croats by any chance? Just a wild hunch, LOL Kirker (talk) 23:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Magnum Crimen
Be advised to avoid vandalizing this and other Wikipedia articles!--J. A. Comment (talk) 21:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Lika
Rjecina, re: Lika, your protestations about "truth", "verifiability" and "the good of the encyclopedia" and suchlike are coming a wee bit undone on this article. What's this inflammatory unsourced dogshit about "But the propaganda and influence from Serbia and neighbouring rebelled areas was strong and heavy. Besides all that, the influx of greaterserbianist paramilitary volunteers and neighbouring warmongering extremists, as well the rise of influence of local warmongering extremists, these areas turned to rebels' side". That's the work of a POV monster, my friend, and no excuses will get you off the hook about it. In terms of our encyclopedia, that's dreadful, appalling nonsense. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 00:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser
Either file your checkuser report today or retract your accusation. A ni  Mate  03:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Despite your assertion that I'm a sockpuppet or meatpuppet, I've made a request for semi-protection on Petar Brzica. A  ni  Mate  06:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment
Rjecina, I have been getting a lot of flack about your editing so I will say this. You need to stop with the "revert sock" and "revert banned user" stuff. You make a lot of sockpuppetry allegations (few of which you follow up on) and it is not productive. It is still a violation of assuming good faith if you call everyone a sock (even if they are). I will repeat this point to everyone: truth is not a defense. Frankly, you would be better served if you stayed away from specifically arguing that way and just filing reports (which I know take forever to get taken care of). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * For example, instead of just making warnings at User talk:Brzica milos etc, you would be better off filing a report and getting to the bottom of it. If it's a banned user, all the sockpuppets will be blocked at once and you can bring him up specifically at WP:ANI if it continues.  Can you tell me who the banned user is?  I don't have a clue and the editing goes on forever.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link. I am however concerned that you named all those people there.  You would probably have a lot more success if you limited the request and added it to the old one.  What evidence do you have against everyone on that list?  Most of them never even touched Ljubo Miloš.  I'm going to comment on the checkuser there.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Another sockpuppet speaks
I see you have at last plucked up courage to file another sockpuppet complaint, this time against Animate. Just to be clear, can you tell me whether you will be naming me in that same allegation, or will you now be pursuing the case against me separately?

I can fully understand that you will not want to come back and tell us all that you got it wrong (yet again, LOL). So could you let me know if there is some other way I can find out the result of these investigations? Many thanks for any assistance with that.

One other point. When you've finished pestering the administrators with trivial complaints, will you be answering the various points I raised with you in my last message on this page? If you haven't got answers, don't worry. Just let me know, and I'll understand. Kirker (talk) 23:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I hope your complaint about sock/meatpuppets went OK? I remember you telling me that some user called Thatcher could resolve these matters within an hour, so I assume you've got the answer by now. Will the rest of us also be told? Kirker (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

ANI
Hello Rjecina. You've been mentioned at WP:ANI and at User talk:Tznkai. EdJohnston (talk) 17:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Explanation?
Can you please explain this? Are you saying you have information on the user that would be relevant to the case or are you saying this because of the spurious request that you filed? I honestly am not quite sure what you're trying to say. A ni  Mate  01:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. If you are saying that you believe that they aren't a part of the socking and will survive checkuser, why continue to list them there?  Strike the names out and treat people civilly.  Sockpuppet allegations are not a game and it seems like you use them quite liberally.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Proxying?
What is Wikipedia:Proxying? Kubura (talk) 06:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That is is his attempt to show that Kirker and I are Pax sock-puppets. He was trying to say that points raised by banned users cannot ever be discussed, and if you attempt to discuss them then you are a sock. I have a piece of advice for both of you. Try not to engage Alasdair or Kirker for a few days. Let the sock-puppet report play out. Once tensions cool, and as soon as my schedule permits, I'm going to be working on starting a project or "experiment" where neutral admins and users involved in WP:ECCN and WP:WORKINGGROUP facilitate a productive forum so that all of this talk page sniping goes away and articles can be focused on. A  ni  Mate  08:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Insults
Hi, Rjecina. User Kirker used this words about you : "I regard Rjecina's complaint to be in keeping with his small-minded mentality ", "And your ready cow-towing to such a blatently POV contributor (I blame that Croat parentage )" (what!!!????), "I've always thought Rjecina was too pathetic ". And he told to Ricky81682 "crass administering". There you go. Ricky gave him too mild punishment (sole 31 hours) and he returned him this way. Has any other admin read WP:CIVIL and WP:ATTACK? Kubura (talk) 08:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

LOL
OMG, you must be joking, Rjecina... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Afghan British
Hi. Just wanted to let you know that I responded to your comments here. Cordless Larry (talk) 00:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Adding others to Wikiprojects
This is really inappropriate. You don't sign people up for things without asking their permission first. A ni  Mate  03:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Point taken.--Rjecina (talk) 04:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic group articles
Hi. In light of the failure to reach consensus at Articles for deletion/Afghan British‎ I've suggested that there be a discussion of the various issues raised, here. Your input would be appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

User:71.252.106.166
Well, first, the request at Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Brzica_milos_etc came back as likely only. I'm not User:Thatcher nor a checkuser so I'm not comfortable blocking without knowing more. Second, since there is a dispute at Magnum Crimen (which I'm completely done with) with that user, I don't need another round of postings at WP:ANI complaining about my biases. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Final warning. Drop the attempts to get these users blocked, now.  Your continued attempts to get them blocked when those requests have been repeatedly declined are disruptive to Wikipedia.  If you start another discussion or make another request without any new information, you will be blocked.  Mango juice talk 05:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll add my own final warning. This has gone on enough beyond those users now.  Any more "banned user" edit summaries, talk page discussions, insinuations at all that you think people are sockpuppets without very good evidence and you will be blocked.  You will treat people with respect or you will not be allowed to edit here.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I concur with that. Rjecina, your calling that IP editor banned doesn't make it so.  You violated WP:3RR yesterday on Ivo Andrić.  If I had noticed this while it was going on you would be blocked right now for edit warring.  Mango juice talk 15:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I will add that emailing me more information about potential socks is NOT helping. If I wasn't clear before, drop the subject right now. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 15:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Ivo Andrić and "nationalists"
You are correct. I was wrong on that one. See Talk:Ivo_Andrić for my explanation. Honestly, I would rather stay away from the "these guys him a hero" language and be a little more professional in tone. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 15:34, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:ANI
See --Don Luca Brazzi (talk) 01:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours
I have restricted editing from this account for 24 hours, because despite final warnings from both Mangojuice and Ricky81682, you have continued to describe other editors as "banned users". Making accusations like this, without significant evidence, is just as disruptive as it would be to vandalise an article, and will not be tolerated - especially in the sometimes highly-charged atmosphere that seems to surround articles related to the Balkans.

I have recorded this sanction at WP:ARBMAC. If, however, you feel I have acted outside Wikipedia policy, you can contest this block by copy/pasting the text below, replacing reason with your message. Another administrator will then review this block. EyeSerene talk 10:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

ARBMAC
Zdravo Rjecina. About this, that page is for logging of all administrative action taken under the arbitration, not for questions regarding blocks. Thus, I have reverted your edit to that page. Maybe you should talk directly to the blocking admin or something... Regards,  Balkan Fever  07:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Serbs of Croatia
Rjecina, civility also applies to edit summaries and comments like this are not helpful. Also, see that he was already there under Gojko Stojčević so I'm merging them. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * First, I'm only watching certain articles and that's why I missed though. Second, the warnings on your user page are not considered vandalism per se.  For the template issues, though, there is a talk page and it seems like, edit warring aside, other admins are aware of his action.  You may mention there that there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think User:AniMate has the right idea here. I don't know what I'm planning on doing.  There's been discussions for a while about getting ArbCom to hand down rulings on all the Balkans articles but until then, I'm going to go by feel. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, how I wish. You should head over the Israel-Palestine, global warming, and various other articles (some has even gotten into real-world attempt to find people and harass them).  It is to be expected.  Sadly, people do take an internet encyclopedia very, very seriously.  The best you can do is realize that there will be emotions, there will be arguments, and just try to reach a compromise.  The ones who are reasonable you can work with, the ones who are aren't you can't.  And be aware that new ones come in and the cycle starts anew.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

jasenovac
Sorry I did not understand your last comment on the discussion page. What would you like me to do given the current state of the article? I agree with you that is is not currently in good shape - I just don't know how to approach the changes other than the way I have suggested. Please let me know.

Thanks. Vontrotta (talk) 09:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks for your clarification. I'll be very careful as I go forward and will refer back to the earlier version you noted. I'm not sure I can keep up with the effort to fix this, but I'll try to do at least a little bit each day. Feel free to contact me directly if you think it would be helpful. By the way, we have a similar problem with the Stara Gradiška concentration camp article. Vontrotta (talk) 11:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

No, just no
Perhaps you should look at this users otehr contributions - the guy is a Slovene nationalist. He is only here to try to belittle other former Yugoslav nationalities, while at the same time "fluffing up" Slovenia. This is clearly POV edit warring, and he is not in the right. If you believe he is, well, you're an idiot. I will not stop doing the right thing. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.185.148.41 (talk) 12:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, I'm aware of 3RR - he made the first revert, so he will get to 4 first, thus I can report his actions, and this vandalistic troll will be blocked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.185.148.41 (talk) 12:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Read the sources carefully. And answer me properly - Did you check his edits? The guy is nationalist vandal. If you accept the actions of these diehard nationalists, then you are no better than them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.185.148.41 (talk) 12:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

So you're not concerned that the guy is going to Serb articles and is lowering their numbers? Lowering their contributions? You don't care that he's removing Austrian and Hungarian names and replacing them with Hungarian ones? You don't care that he is lowering the population of all Former Yugoslavs, but increasing Slovenes? You don't care about this at all? Jesus Christ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.185.148.41 (talk) 12:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Re:Discussion about Holocaust
I'd suggest reposting this question at WP:PWNB and its Lithuanian counterpart.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

BLP
If you restore that comment about the scholar again, you're likely to be blocked for a BLP violation. SlimVirgin talk| edits 19:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I looked over the comment here. If he is dead, BLP doesn't apply, but we still should try to be civil. I think you can restore your comment but you should refactor "inventions and lies", perhaps by replacing it with something like "controversies over his research".--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, if he is dead, I apologize and retract the warning. I would still ask you to modify your tone though. There's too much repetition, black and white thinking, sarcasm. Point is: the scholars disagree here too.


 * I also think you're relying too much on tertiary sources. It would be good if you could go direct to the secondary scholarly sources, because the ones others have found would seem to support the inclusion of the camp. You therefore need to find some equally good sources (not just websites) that support what you are saying. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 21:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I did ask you to file your own RfC, but you didn't, so I did. You have to understand that I'm an admin on that page, not an editor. I have no interest in the actual content dispute. I just want to see the issue discussed calmly and with no insults and reverting. The more eyes that are on it, the better. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 22:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Voting
Hi. You've participated in the debate about deleting of category:Former Towns of RSK 1991-95. Now, there's a similar voting on deletion on the article (created, although the results of discussion was delete, not listify). The links to the voting is here merger suggestion?. Since you've participated previously in the discussion, you're invited to participate again. Please, give your opinion. Kubura (talk) 14:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Fast
It was hanging around for a while. If you would like, I'll drop a note not to archive. -- Avi (talk) 00:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note left, please contact Thatcher or Lar. -- Avi (talk) 00:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Brzica milos etc
Rjecina, there is no evidence that "Brzica milos etc = Velebit" so stop that nonsense right now. As I told you before, the results at Requests for checkuser/Case/Brzica milos etc were "likely" and not guaranteed. Do not exaggerate the claims as your "crying wolf" will not get you far. You have already been blocked once for repeated sockpuppetry allegations and if you don't stop NOW, I will block you again. You tried a new check at Requests for checkuser/Case/Don Luca Brazzi and were told to wait. Wait you shall. Do not pester User:Thatcher nor anybody else. It will be up to them to decide what to do. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't try to be a smart ass. I told you then and I'll tell you the same now: only Thather knows what likely means and that's it for me.  Don't act like I'm suggesting unbanning everyone else.  I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.  My issue is that you claim EVERYONE you disagree with is a sockpuppet of somebody.  My patience with that line of arguing is at an end.  Frankly, your user page is ridiculously aggressive and I believe a massive violation of WP:USER.  I would suggest you tone it down and stop treating this like a battleground.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara
Hi!

Thanks for your kind words! To be honest, I'm not so much angry as bemused - the whole episode has been very strange! I honestly thought I was proposing some kind of middle ground that both "sides" might be prepared to adopt; unfortunately it seems one "side" was unable to see me as anything other than a member of "the wrong side".

One of the good things I've found with providing third opinions is that you stumble across topics that you normally discover; that's been the case here and part of my concern is that I feel this could be a fascinating article but that a few editors are doing their best to prevent it being anything other than a lyrics page for their apparent favourite version of a song.

Thanks again! Cheers, This flag once was red propagandadeeds 05:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Deletion tag
Hej, Rjecina! Do you now how can I put deletion tag on and. Those maps were made by a banned user... --Čeha (razgovor) 15:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

No need to worry about this, for it has been done already - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Image:Bih_Stan_1991.GIF (LAz17 (talk) 18:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)).

No it haven't. Laz, is your english realy so bad? That is a request to delete the right picture...--Čeha (razgovor) 22:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

hm
Well okay. I have an issue though... where did the talk page go? It got deleted it seems. So where is the discussion? (LAz17 (talk) 13:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)).


 * talk was restored, it was accidentally deleted. (LAz17 (talk) 22:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)).

Possible block
Rjecina, ok I'm not going to participate in discussion till next week (anyways I've got a lot of private, smarter things to do:), so there is no need for block. When you go through the discussion, please notice that Laz is not recognizing data from Federation census data, and that he claimes that has his own private data (which was suposedly made by Beograd University in 1998), and to which he has no internet reference. And those sources (his) are different from BiH 1991 census data. That would be all. Nice weekend to you all :) --Čeha (razgovor) 18:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

That census data from the federation has absolutely NO map associated with it. Not only is there no map associated with it, but those subdivisions "do not exist". There is no such division as "mesna zajdnica" in the censuses of the former yugoslavia. There are the census tracks, which are clearly shown on the belgrade univeristy maps. National Geographic's 1991 map is also similar to the Belgrade one from 1991. And no, my data was from the Yugoslav office of statistics, not belgrade university. (LAz17 (talk) 22:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)). And somehow Laz data is different from BiH 1991 census data. How is that? --Čeha (razgovor) 23:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Personal remarks
You really ought to learn that making remarks about other editors is counterproductive. Therefore, given that you and I both choose to work on articles in the same field, namely Yugoslavia during World War 2, you need to remember that comments on articles are good, and comments on editors are not. You can edit any article you wish, in whatever way you wish. I welcome that. However, and I will give you this notice once only, your adherence to Wikipedia's rules on collegiate editing is a requirement for your continued presence here. Now, is that clear? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed unblock of user:PaxEquilibrium
After review I think there is some doubt about PaxE being the master account. See Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents. Thatcher 13:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Reply
Well, I can't force you to have any opinion. There were dubious checkuser findings before - and I don't think anyone really thinks that I'd mass-create an abundance of socks, such as "PaxPaxicus", "VendetisVendeticus", "PaxVendetimus", etc...? Do you?

All sources are speaking that annexation of Montenegro has been against Montenegrin laws.

Of no doubt there is that it is in contradiction to the legal rights of the sovereign, and that HRH and his Government-in-Exile called upon the rights bestowed upon them by the constitution - that is not a controversial thing, and all versions of the article included that - however, your statement to the above. There is an abundance of neutral 3rd sources presented to you that disagree with the notion of the Podgorica Assembly being contradictory to domestic Montenegrin laws. One such credible source is this one, just to name an example. We must follow the policy of WP:NPOV, and therefore not present the view from the legal point of view (though we must keep on mind that this is an internationally-sanctioned act when we compose the precise wording ), since there is no consensus on the matter (there was never a legal dispute on this controversial issue in the history) relating to the sources - perhaps similar to Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence - or better said, we should note the arguments of each side, e.g. that, as aforementioned, the Monarch and the men gathered around him called upon defending the Constitution, and the contra-arguments coming from the Unionists. We cannot assert that Kosovo is an illegal state - can we?

If you want more data which is not in article: Podgorica Assembly has been against points 2 and 70 of Montenegro constitution.

I am the one who actually informed you of this, do you not remember? ;) I should also further remind you that according to the very Constitution (articles 2 and 16, respectively), a Monarch who deserts his own country, or unilaterally abandons it under any means, automatically forfeits all legal rights, and does not pertain any political responsibility or obligation when it comes to the Kingdom of Montenegro - which is, after all, when the Montenegrin National Assembly discussed days after his flight (headed by Sekule Drljevic & Jovan Simonov Plamenac) discussed about his treason. The Great People's Assembly of the Serb People in Montenegro viewed not that it deposed him, but that they officialized the act, as the Crown still laid with him. It's view also was that the Monarch is, as per the Constitution, to be ignored as legally irresponsible.

and because of that I can't understand where is problem.

The problem is in the mass removal of content - leading to a significant POVisation of the article - i.e. completely imbalancing it by expanding significantly one POV, and practically totally removing the other.

I can understand that Serbia and people from Montenegro which are today for union with Serbia see things differently and this can be added in article, but only in separated section using rules Wikipedia:Fringe theories. In my thinking this is only possible solution if you want to add your theories

I'm afraid you've completely lost me in here - what were you trying to say? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 02:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, OK, but I'd much rather discuss the issues I've raised to the up.


 * P.S. Delighted to hear that, and I must confirm that the fealing is indeed mutual. ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Grammar
Rjecina, I hope you won't take this the wrong way or anything, but "in my thinking" is incorrect in English. "In my opinion" is ok. Regards :) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Re your ANI report
Regarding your ANI report, I noticed that you have been engaging in a revert-war with other editors on Ustaše. I've notified the other editors involved about the WP:ARBMAC decision, and will impose sanctions if necessary, but by continually reverting them you have also got yourself drawn in. By all means continue your good-faith efforts to obtain talk-page consensus, but please refrain from any more reversions otherwise I may also have to sanction this account. EyeSerene talk 14:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

user:UjkaLjubiteljOstriga
Thanks for the note. I've warned them, and so has AniMate. EyeSerene talk 17:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Un aiuto in serbo e croato per Lola Pagnani
Ciao, ho visto sulla wikipedia croata che capisci molto bene la mia lingua, ti chiedo se per cortesia potresti aiutare l'articolo in serbo e croato della mia amica Lola. In cambio ti tradurrò in siciliano, napoletano, piemontese, veneto e milanese, una biografia o un articolo geografico di tuo gradimento. Nell'attesa ti ringrazio in anticipo!--Lodewijk Vadacchino (talk) 19:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Re
No not too late at all, Rjecina. Thank you. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 08:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I will report old "Ante" anyway, even though he wised up later. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 08:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is Encyclopaedia Britannnica
I don't want to argue with you forever, but. Don't show me wikipedia aricle. Toroko (talk) 14:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)