User talk:RobDuch/Archive 3


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Got my paws (temporarily) on a copy of Kaufmann’s “Fortress America”...
...anything that needs digging from it? Qwirkle (talk) 02:01, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the offer, but I'm on an extended Wikibreak, likely to last into Sept due to World of Warcraft. I have "Fortress Europe", and "Fortress America" would be a natural. Any info beyond what the CDSG has 1895-1945? Anything on defenses in Trinidad? How good is it for 1st-2nd-3rd Systems? On a related note, the author of "A Legacy in Brick and Stone" about the 3rd System has been working on a second edition that should hit the streets any week now. Color fort diagrams this time. RobDuch (talk) 02:11, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The most annoying page was the one detailing the setup of the HD commands; woulda saved a lot of research time. Knew I’d seen that somewhere accessible.


 * 1st through 3rd? Useful, but not quite authoritative, Covers some areas and times a good deal better than others. Sometimes the groupings are jarring; a section on the expanding frontier includes the contemporaneous work on the Eastern seaboard. Better to have titled it by decades.


 * Didn’t mention Trini, but had coverage of Quebec.


 * Illustrations, as you’d expect, are excellent. The stuff on WWII work in Hawaii was particularlay good, even had the US fahrpanzer descendants Blaw-Knox built, along with the use of ship gun turrets. Qwirkle (talk) 05:17, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Setup of HD commands would be very helpful, regardless of era; I plan to order the book tomorrow from ABEbooks. I've found no pre-WWI docs on hardly anything org-wise, besides one order listing (but not describing) subordinate commands of an HD circa 1910 and the endless list of companies in the CDSG Ref Guide. Quebec is good, and more info on Argentia/St. John's is also welcome. I did some work on Quebec, not only the ex-US 10-inchers, but also the Canadian 4.2-inch guns because some also survive. I had help on these from a Canadian former artillery officer who has a good website on surviving US and Canadian artillery. These started as field guns supplied by the UK circa 1905, may have served overseas in WWI, and were converted to pedestal mounts in early WWII I think. The CDSG lists them incorrectly as BL Mk III, but they're actually QF B Mk IV* or some such. See Fort Ramsay and Fort Amherst, St. John's for some of them. I'm pretty well caught up in WoW for this week, your post may have got me into fort mode again. My most recent project was reading through Conn, et al's "Guarding the US and its Outposts" in the green books series online and putting relevant material into various articles. I added some stuff to the article on Japanese-American internment and waited for flak that never came; either I'll add a little more or go on to the next chapter. As I intended, this has resulted in expansion of the EDC, WDC, etc articles. RobDuch (talk) 05:49, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Ordered Kaufmann, under $5 with free shipping, several other copies listed at this price. RobDuch (talk) 22:47, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * It’s worth having if you library don’t, I think, but you have to keep a grain of salt handy. I think it describes Castle William as made of tabby, for instance. Qwirkle (talk) 18:31, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I've taken the first step towards re-integration into Wiki by added refs and links to Fort Miles, DE. This follows my geographic plan for HD domination; I'll spiff up the other forts and work on an HD article. Also, after over a year I read the whole of the article you recommended on the exercise in 1930 in Long Island Sound; I thought the attempted integration of submarines and aircraft was worth putting into the master Seacoast Def article as well as the LIS article. RobDuch (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

37 foot Brit submersible
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112105093287;view=2up;seq=64;skin=mobile

Is this animule showing up here under some other name? It looks vaguely familiar. Qwirkle (talk) 01:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Couldn't find it directly, but eventually I did. Tried these: Semi-submersible naval vessel (Russian 23-footer from 1905 looks a bit like it), Midget submarine, Welman submarine (a bit amusing), Motorised Submersible Canoe (much more amusing), finally used the template and bingo! Welfreighter. Mentions production difficulties, but I couldn't find how many were built. Didn't hit production until Sep 44, no mention of operational use. I have "Fortress America" now, seems light on Endicott as regards book thickness, did find the HECP description though. List of HD commands got screwed up at the start, p. 397, straightened out next page. Got to read through the Endicott portion and see what needs to be on Wiki; which pages do you recommend? My latest good Wikinews is that Obusier de 400 Modèle 1915/1916 is live on English wiki; done by someone else who I thanked. I quickly changed the US-related articles to the EN link (I'd linked the FR article), and put US service in the new article. I'm planning to reorganize Fort Miles and the other Delaware forts, but got sidetracked today by adding history to 52nd Air Defense Artillery Regiment, previously an example of how divorced lineage can become from history. A while back you mentioned 16-inch railway gun design; see Miller, Railway Arty, Vol. I pp. 458-462. This is detailed speculation on how it might be implemented for the proto-M1919; it's preceded by the 16-inch railway howitzer M1918 and its predecessor the Model E, with photos. RobDuch (talk) 02:15, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Many thanks, twice over. So, this is the Welbike of the water.
 * Re the unit lineages, I think anyone that can think that a unit can be transferred '’minus personnel and equipment’’ is a very special sort of person, and the whole lineage system has to be taken with a two-ton grain of salt. Qwirkle (talk) 16:43, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Sorry about the delay, someone borrowed the book while visiting, and I assumed he’d taken it back with him when I didn’t see it around. Of course it was here, hidden in plain sight...


 * I don’t think there’s too much to lift from 3rd System to late Taft; you’ve pretty well filled in most of that. Where I think it really useful is WWII Hawaii. A lot of good stuff done there that went from wartime secrecy to demolition and scrapping in a very, very short period. Qwirkle (talk) 17:06, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Updated fort book
An updated edition of "A Legacy in Brick and Stone" by John Weaver has just been released. This covers all the Third System forts and no others. Color copies are currently limited in number, at $64.95 plus $6.00 S&H. Ordering information from the author is at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211033288221254&set=a.1509857239504&type=3&theater (in the lower left). B&W copies are/will be on Lulu.com. RobDuch (talk) 03:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Morton Plant
Plant was also involved in charity in Florida, with a hospital now named for him in Clearwater. In later years, Donald Roebling, the fellow who invented the tracked things our Jarhoovian brethren use to borrow other people’s beaches from them, became its biggest patron. Roebling commissioned Jack Hanna’s largest power design, which was used in a Smithsonian mollusk-hunting expedition, while Hanna’s largest sail design was later used by John Ford to spy on the IJN in the Pacific before WWII. The Plant foundation has a bunch of Roebling’s papers, including, possibly, the big power boat’s plans. Ruth Turner, who piloted Alvin, among other things, wanted to see if Bob Ballard would be interested in raising the Hanna power boat, to see what the shipworms had done to it at one of the deeper parts of the Caribbean.

If I weren’t so damned lazy, I could turn all the proper names above, and a few pronouns, too, blue. It’s interesting how long a chain you can draw out from one article. Everything that rises really does converge. Qwirkle (talk) 22:02, 13 September 2018 (UTC)


 * IIRC he had something to do with the former grand hotel that's now part of the University of Tampa, with several big onion domes. Next to it is a Span-Am War memorial promoting post-Civil War reconciliation, as the cavalry were bivouacked there prior to shipment to Cuba, with units from both North and South. The memorial currently has an 8-inch railway gun dismounted from the railcar; it originally had a disappearing 8-inch gun with carriage from Fort Dade that I think fell to a WWII scrap drive. The Jack Hanna you refer to does not seem to have a Wiki article. RobDuch (talk) 00:46, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * John G. Hanna, the Sage of Dunedin.


 * The blue-grey reconciliation over the Spanish war was, oddly enough, one of the factors in the turn-of-the-century burst of rebel war memorials that is getting so much attention now. Qwirkle (talk) 01:30, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Somebody once told me that the Confederates were prohibited from erecting monuments at Gettysburg until 1905. I've never verified that, or heard of a more wide-ranging prohibition, but it's possibly a factor. RobDuch (talk) 03:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * PS:Hotel? Qwirkle (talk) 04:02, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Oh, that's it all right. Couldn't resist linking the 8-inch M1888 gun with a little more info. RobDuch (talk) 04:32, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Interesting how much it looks like some of Flagler’s stuff from the other side of Florida. A’course, the best railroad hotels were Canuckistani, followed closely by Hill, and then by the Harvey operation. The old CP/CN ones are still damned good. Qwirkle (talk) 08:05, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Mine planter
Just ran across this description of a [boat] I’ve seen a few times in the past; didn’t know, or didn’t remember, that she’d started life in the CAC. Like anything Hanson touched, a real beauty. Qwirkle (talk) 23:22, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Very cool, perhaps the best-looking mine planter I've seen a photo of. RobDuch (talk) 03:39, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Driggs
Ran across this in an unrelated search. Qwirkle (talk) 18:08, 21 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Great! I'll put it in. RobDuch (talk) 19:54, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

WWI CAC in France
This page and this one are back after several months hiatus. Much of Rootsweb was down due to response to a hacker attack. Anyway, these pages have more info on the CAC's heavy and railway artillery units in WWI than I've found anywhere else. "America's Munitions" does discuss the railway gun production issues, but not as concisely. RobDuch (talk) 05:56, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Near-future projects
I've recently returned from a Caribbean cruise on Viking that included a VERY brief visit to The Keep at the former Royal Dockyard in Bermuda. Some of my photos will be making it to Wikipedia; a few of them may wind up in the "Unidentified artillery" category. The Keep has a good-sized artillery collection but is mostly lacking in interpretation, and there are many more artillery pieces on the island that I didn't get to. The fort's most unusual features are a large natural cave in the middle and an interior boat basin with portcullis access to the sea (now a dolphin attraction). I'm debating whether to start "List of forts in Bermuda" or take care of some lesser projects first, most likely the latter. I have McGovern and Harris' Bermuda fort book for a source. One will be a short article on the 27th Coast Artillery Battalion, the CAC's Bermuda unit Feb 42-Jun 44. I found 2 cannons on Grand Cayman attributed to HMS Thunderer (1760); a plaque there included a book title on the "research vessel" (seems more of a treasure hunter) that raised them. I took what fort pix I could; the Waterfort on Curacao is one of the few worth putting on Wiki. We visited 7 islands plus New York and Miami. I need to look at the islands' articles before deciding what info to add. We went on a tourist submarine in Aruba and the St. Kitts Scenic Railway, so I can say something about those. I can maybe add tidbits about Viking, though I'll have to remember NPOV LOL. RobDuch (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

This is a hoot. Norman Wiard goes bananas in 1881. Begins on p. 233; scroll past p. 243 for drawings of 15-inch Rodmans sawed off with a super-long rifled barrel bolted on, and other stuff. RobDuch (talk) 04:15, 12 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Wiard had some genuinely crazy ideas about boilers, too, IMS. Qwirkle (talk) 04:28, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

“Ames Privilege”
I think a new high...or maybe that should be “low”..in pretentious real property names has been set. I wonder if the residents have to extend their pinkies while saying it. Qwirkle (talk) 17:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)


 * We were informed at a tea ceremony in China that only ladies extend their pinkies. There's a fort connection: it was in Beijing in a building near the "Bell" and "Drum" gates for the former city wall. I didn't check if there were other "Privilege" apartments around. The name is truly worthy of the Brits, but here it is in the Ppls Rep of Taxachusetts. In a place where hundreds of people used to work six days a week for something like 15 cents an hour. RobDuch (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)


 * The Pay State, just south of Vomit, Cow Hamster, and the State-o-Maineiacs, just northa ‘hRoad Eye Lunn and New Yorkicutt, yeah.


 * God’s country.


 * Ever notice a gewgaw emporium called “The Company Store?” Last I heard the truck system had a pretty checkered history; why people would think that sounded like a good place to shop is beyond me. Saint Peter, doncha call me, cause I can’t goooooooooooo.... Qwirkle (talk) 21:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Haven't seen "The Company Store". Oh yes, I remember the song and am so glad I was born when I was. I also remember The Emporium in Mystic and saw The Fantastic Umbrella Factory in Westerly just once before it closed. RobDuch (talk) 22:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Take part in a survey
Hi RobDuch

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Researcher, MIT Initiative on the Digital Economy --Avi gan (talk) 02:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Nominations now open for "Military historian of the year" and "Military history newcomer of the year" awards
Nominations for our annual Military historian of the year and Military history newcomer of the year awards are open until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2018. Why don't you nominate the editors who you believe have made a real difference to the project in 2018? MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:26, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I generally dont go in for this sort of crap stuff, but if one of the usual suspects there doesnt put you in for digging out a long-term accesible versionand of the Montresor work then there is no @#%& justice in this world wiki... Qwirkle (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I've thought a bit about my recognition situation, but an editor is judged pretty much on how many GA/FA/A articles they've worked on. Out of my entire body of work about three articles have been assessed as B-class. I suppose 3 or 4 could pass an A-class review, but I've never nominated any. There's also participation in backlog cleanup, which I looked at once and did a little on. But that's mostly stuff I don't know much about and don't have references on. As for references, some pop up on a Google search and some don't. I needed a tip to find the online version of the field artillery lineage book, for example. No thanks to another editor's abbreviating his cite as "CMH" with the pub number and essentially nothing else. RobDuch (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Fort Sill has lineage for the currently active ADA regiments, including National Guard. Go to http://sill-www.army.mil/ada-online/ and click on "ADA Regimental Program" on the left. Of course you have to search a little harder for National Guard (ARNG). Presumably field artillery is elsewhere on the site. RobDuch (talk) 23:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I also see nobody's found the time to assess the (admittedly long) Seacoast defense in the United States. RobDuch (talk) 23:05, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

 * Thanks! RobDuch (talk) 04:14, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

GA/AC Reviews
Have you participated in any GA/AC/FA reviews? I might put a few of "my" articles up for GA but I'm afraid of the process. I expect to be extensively nit-picked by the mutual admiration society. In any case, I have beefed up List of coastal fortifications of the United States bc it might qualify for FL. RobDuch (talk) 03:29, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No, I’m definitely the wrong tree to bark up on this one. Haven’t used it much, and what I have done has been in the opposite direction, trying, without much effect, to get Wiki to stop calling bad articles “good,” or worse yet, “featured.” On the whole, I think the GA process is so broken that it is meaningless, except in certain subject areas. Qwirkle (talk) 11:48, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
 * MILHIST seems well-organized so I should get reviewers in a reasonable time, and standards should be consistent. I noticed that Wiki has over 450 GA reviews pending, not counting the ones in progress. The MILHIST backlog is considerably shorter. Still don't know if I'll ever get around to submitting anything LOL. RobDuch (talk) 02:11, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Book spam
Adding the same book to multiple articles without using the book as a source in citations is considered book spam. I am therefore reverting your additions of the Lewis and/or Weaver books from the articles you added them to this morning. - Donald Albury 14:58, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


 * , You are linking to a guideline which explicitly states [book spam ] is the insertion of text mentioning books to call attention to the books, rather than to contribute to the article.“, which is obviously not the case here. You should self-revert. Qwirkle (talk) 17:53, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The Weaver book has 2-3 or more specific pages on each fort, with an introduction to each geographic area. I will link them in the articles. In many cases I was simply updating Weaver to the 2nd Edition. The only reason Weaver wasn't already in some articles is that I haven't got around to editing them yet. Lewis is a valuable overview book, useful to anyone wanting a concise, readable source. RobDuch (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the help, but I think we're cruising towards another victory of the Admin Corps over common sense. Please don't edit-war further on my behalf. I've been limiting the frequency of my replies to one per day, to limit the amount I get upset over this. Everybody has just been ignoring my first reply, or assuming that I'm lying. RobDuch (talk) 01:23, 16 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Good Lord, I haven’t “edit warred” at all here, unless you accept the mooncalf assertion being made in ANI that a single edit can be a “war”. Hell, that isn’t even a battle.
 * If this is the sort of way good edits are treated here, though, it might be time to check out Fortwiki. It serves the same audience, and seems much less vulnerable to this sort of silliness. Qwirkle (talk) 06:35, 16 January 2019 (UTC)


 * OK, then the post I glanced at was another case of admins being jerks. I see that at least one is coming around to my POV. But now they want info on the publishers. Both editions of Weaver are from Redoubt Press, which is run by Terry McGovern of the CDSG as part of McGovern Publishing. It has some link with Three Sisters Press; Three Sisters appears to be in Ireland and has published at least one of McGovern's own fort books. I registered on FortWiki a couple of years ago. I cleaned up various info on their gun data tables, mostly the 4.7-inch ones which were a mess, with duplicate data for different weapons. I also cleaned up their data for different 16-inch guns, and a few other things. FortWiki is the only source I've found that has brought the data from the Army's gun and carriage cards to the Net. RobDuch (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, I don’t think the fellow who is still engaging is an admin, just someone who is a little too involved in a particular project, and maybe lost sight of some of the other aspects of the place. Seeing everyone and his brother as EEVUL SpAMmerZ!!!! prolly just goes with the territory.


 * I think digging up some reviews of Bro. Terrence’s stuff from the Fortress Study Group might be useful for dealing with some of the problem children. It’s a group that has a lot more blue links than CDSG itself or Osprey does, and the sort of “editor” who can’t be bothered to actually read, skim, or even look up a review or two is often over-impressed by the fact that someone or something has a wikipresence. In theory, of course, Wiki looks outward to reliable sources, but that is often more a “Sunday Truth” than a fact. Qwirkle (talk) 05:27, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Nothing new on the thread, so no news is good news. You're right about citing FSG if these guys want it. This business has put me off my Wikifeed as you might guess. I was going to go on to spiffing up my early Navy articles before all this started, if I start that tomorrow that's why. On another note, somebody posted a dire threat at Talk:List of forts in the United States to delete all redlinks that had no cites, which was all of them of course. Pretty sure it's a rule he just WP:MADEUP and he seems unduly incensed (substance abuse? or he never reworked an old list article before?). He's only worked on Ohio with a couple forts in neighboring states, thank god. That was one of the legion of early-Wiki lists with no refs at all. I added the usual refs and external links, and cited Roberts for all the redlinks I really want to keep. So glad I have Roberts, and at least he didn't threaten the blue links. FWIW a few years ago I added some redlinks to List of forts (worldwide) and they were summarily removed; that article has a lead sentence now that states it's only for forts with articles. From what little I can tell Wiki was grown in the early years by not requiring inline cites, and now this is used to justify summary deletion (see WP:MILHIST, paratroop forces for the latest example). Anyway, feeling better overall but not feeling the Wikilove right now. Something I noticed: the reverts of my edits don't appear on my User Contributions, nor on my X! tools edit count. Is this normal? RobDuch (talk) 06:30, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I’m pretty sure the edit count stays the same, unless someone with deep admin-fu comes along an revdels it. Then, I’m not so sure about. It makes sense to keep them, though: as that exchange shows, what has been nuked can be unnuked, unlike in Real Life. The redlink stuff has proponents both ways, but I think the dominant one is that they should be used only to propel creation of articles. Putting them somewhere unlikely to spur some wikiteur into action is not widely seen as helpful. Qwirkle (talk) 21:58, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Government copyright
Re your comment over on my talk page: "I noticed that you added this image to a page I created, 242nd Coast Artillery (United States). I'm pretty sure US Army distinctive unit insignia are US government publications, and can be exempted from copyright on that basis. RobDuch (talk) 06:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)" - Maybe you can help me out. I did in fact specify that it was a US government logo, but the graphic got deleted anyway. What can I do to get it not deleted, when I put it up again? I can email it to you, if you want to put it up; maybe you'd have better luck! Thanks Bookgrrl holler/ lookee here 15:28, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I use the Upload Wizard, which has several copyright choices, one of which is US Govt. The wizard puts the boilerplate on the Commons page for the image. RobDuch (talk) 20:24, 25 January 2019 (UTC)