User talk:Rockchalk717/Archives/2021/August

Removal of birth names of Eminem's children
You've not only removed full names but birth names of Eminem's children.

While I understand the reason for removing Stevie Laine's birth name, I don't understand why you did it with Whitney.

You give a reasoning for removing Whitney's Alaina's birth name saying "we don't need" it, which sounds pointless given that this is an encyclopaedia. And an encyclopaedia serves to provide information. The edits add only a few words so I don't get the problem. The same goes for her birth name.

Please stop removing edits by me on the article. Providing extra information or full names is not against the rules. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 20:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Inaccurate. For non-binary and transgender people, adding a birth name, when they were not notable under the birth name, violates MOS:DEADNAME. That's why don't list Laverne Cox's birth name but we do with Caitlyn Jenner.-- Rockchalk 717 20:44, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about removing Stevie Laine's full name, not dead name or birth name. Did you not read the part where I said I understand why you removed their full name? You removed my addition of "Laine" to their name. You also removed Whitney's Alaina's full name and birth name. Please stop it. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 20:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there consensus to include the full name(s) and birthdate(s)? Otherwise WP:BLPNAME applies and the information should not be added unless the children are independently notable.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 20:55, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Whitney and Stevie are the same person, so by insisting on the inclusion of Whitney is in fact deadnaming Stevie. I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. When Whitney began identifying as non-binary, they changed their name to Stevie (per, not to mention there is no logical reason to include the Laine at all. Notice that Halie doesn't have her middle or last name listed. We don't normally include non-notable children anyway, but Eminem is an exception because he talks about his children in his songs.-- Rockchalk 717 20:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that was a mistake. I was referring to Alaina whose name you removed. Why did you remove her birth name? She didn't change her gender. And we do include names of non-notable children on nearly every article. So please don't decide what stays or doesn't. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No we don't, LéKashmiriSocialiste. Children are by convention not part of BLPs, unless they have done things that make them notable or noteworthy. Drmies (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, . I had already included a link to our policy stating as such above, but apparently it was missed.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 22:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Haha, I only just noticed that you commented in this little thread, . I'm about to have a look at the article. Drmies (talk) 22:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually we do. I can cite you many articles. It'll be a long list. And Ponyo WP:BLPNAME only prohibits naming individuals if they are not widely disseminated which doesn't apply in this case. There's no prohibition on including full names and birth names. Please include a policy that actually prohibits that. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:09, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You interpretation of the policy is incorrect, as two admins are trying to explain to you. Per policy "The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant..." (emphasis mine). "Subject to editorial discretion" denotes that consensus for inclusion of such excessive personal information is required. The standard practice in BLP compliance is to exclude contentious contested information, even if sourced, until there is consensus for its inclusion. Wikipedia policy errs on the side of protection of private individuals who are not independently notable. If your focus is to squeeze this type of information in where you can, you should focus elsewhere. All that being said, the place to get consensus for your edits is at Talk:Eminem and the venue for discussing changes to the policy is at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons. It could very well be that you are able to get consensus for the changes you would like made, but that won't be achieved on this talk page.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 22:26, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * LéKashmiriSocialiste, sorry, but Ponyo and I have close to half a million edits between us on this project, many of them as admins. You can cite articles, but that's only an incentive for me to go clean those up, and making reference to articles that do have those names is no license to include it in others. Below, the guideline is cited for you, and please note also "editorial discretion". What more do we understand about Eminem if we know the name of a child he's caring for? Drmies (talk) 22:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you understand the difference between excluding a name for privacy and not including full name or birth names? That policy is actually about not naming people at all. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:23, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * LéKashmiriSocialiste, I don't respond to loaded questions. If you can't discuss this without making personal attacks or insults, I'm going to have to wonder why you are so extraordinarily and possibly emotionally invested in including the names of children in the article on a musician. Drmies (talk) 22:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It was not a loaded question or running down anyone like how you claim you have more edits than me. It was simply making you aware of how you are confusing two unrelated things, omitting names completely due to privacy and not including full/birth names. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * LéKashmiriSocialiste, the sky is blue. Please do not ping me anymore. Drmies (talk) 22:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * "The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject." Considering, other than Hailie, his other children are rarely mentioned in his songs, it won't help with understanding of him. Technically by that policy, we shouldn't be including any of his children's names other than Hailie.-- Rockchalk 717 22:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Since when did songs become the only source? Just search Whitney and Alaina you'll find them in news, whether tabloid or serious press. We don't omit names of JK Rowling's children even if they aren't notable on their own. And she has a featured article. I'm going to go with established Wiki practices rather than what someone decides or misreading of Wiki policies. That said I won't revert you since it would be edit-warring, however you could stop unnecessarily blockading my edits. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:20, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I literally just provided you the part of that policy that applies to this situation and you're accusing me misreading policies? And I didn't say songs weren't the only sources my point was he barely mentions them himself. Media always talks about celebrities children, but it doesn't make them notable or that they should be mentioned in the article. And in regards to the JK Rowling comment, see WP:OTHER, just because other articles do it, doesn't make it ok.-- Rockchalk 717 22:41, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes you certainly are because the only thing you use is other children being rarely mentioned in his songs. And as for WP:OTHER, please read this line: "When used correctly, these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes." LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * LéKashmiriSocialiste, I strongly suggest you drop this now or take it the appropriate talk pages as I noted in my last message above. You have a history of misinterpreting policies and edit warring and your incorrect description of our policies here is tiresome for everyone. If you didn't read my entire messages, it ended with "the place to get consensus for your edits is at Talk:Eminem and the venue for discussing changes to the policy is at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons. It could very well be that you are able to get consensus for the changes you would like made, but that won't be achieved on this talk page." Nothing will be accomplished by your repeated postings here as no one is buying what you're selling. I won't be responding to you here further, but I will drop a message on your talk page to ensure you are fully aware of the importance of WP:BLP compliance. -- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 23:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * As will I. You've had 3 different editors all with 10+ years of experience on here telling you it's against policy, while having only a little over a year of experience yourself. You have been advised of the proper procedure here and refuse to follow it.


 * Over and out.-- Rockchalk 717 23:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Names of John L. Smith's wife and children
I was referred to the above discussion by Rockchalk717 after our recent back and forth at John L. Smith regarding inclusion of the names of his wife and children. If properly sourced, I see no reason not to include these names and I don't see how it violates the above quoted policies. By default, a biography subject's immediate family members (parents, sibling, spouses, and children) ought to be mentioned by name if they can be verified, even if those immediate family members are not, themselves, notable individuals. There are a myriad of examples of bio article that reflect such practice: Nick Saban, Jim Harbaugh, Mike Krzyzewski, Andrew Cuomo, Martin Scorsese, to name a few. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:28, 30 August 2021 (UTC)