User talk:RogerGLewis

March 2009
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, one or more of the external links you added do not comply with our guidelines for external links and have been removed. Wikipedia is not a collection of links; nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, please discuss it on the before reinserting it. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. The Real Libs-speak politely 16:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC) Hi Real Libs, I'm getting the hang of this, communicating is confusing as there isn't a reply button so to speak so it's guess work as to where to put questions suggestions etc, for me at this stage anyway. How would you suggest I put my suggestions for the Byrdland page, I'm all for consensus and I'm happy to draft things and put them in the talk section before showing them the light of day on the actual page.The links thing is open to a wide range of interpretations, a citation on manufacturing numbers and also an actual list of players citing locations where the proof in an actual photograph can be found would seem a longwinded way of achieving the effect of just posting a link to a location within which the information can be found anyway. I have read the discussion on inclusionist and deletionist philosophies with the link to the article posted in your own article, I found it very interesting. My objective in this is really just to get the Byrdland guitar properly recognised as the groundbreaking instrument it actualy was and still is. RogerGLewis (talk) 15:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 12:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Gibson Byrdland links et-al
Hi I am just getting used to the lie of the land around here. On the Byrdland Thread I have posted what I would say are useful additions to the information on that instrument. The Gibson Players list is a link and a poor one in terms of reference to the Byrdland. What is the problem do you think with the links I have posted? I collect guitars and have been researching the Byrdland model for over a year now. I own a vintage model and would like to see this section of the Wiki doing justice to the guitar. There are a number of edits I would suggest to the main article which is one dimensional in many respects relying mostly on the one source book, there is no reference to the 11th edition of the blue book or any edition of the blue book for that matter a material shortcoming in relation to any rare vintage instrument, even a cursory look at the shipping figures I posted a link to would show that the Byrdland is a rare and yet influential instrument. How does one discuss edits I do think there is rather a lot to discuss before this entry could be said to be satisfactry. I realise that Wikepedia is more than just a collection of links it does seem to me that such a big section of this entry relies on a link and an unimformitive one at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RogerGLewis (talk • contribs) 19:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing here but having just reviewed the post above entitled a request, I am starting to form the opinion that there is some pretty arbitrary and undemocratic editing going on in here. I am looking to enter into a sensible discussion as to how I might collaborate in getting the Entry for the Gibson Byrdland into a shape that actually communicates the importance of the Byrdland model in the development of the thin line guitar. If Wikipedia is to be other than a collection of links it should also be less than the one dimensional precis of one old source book. RogerGLewis (talk) 20:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) My intention is to restore the links I have made or at least provide the list of notable players I have compiled within the body of the article. All sources of players are actually accredited to their source as are the sources of the photographs of the players with their instruments where I have them. This represents 4 months work alone. The shipping figures I mentioned should also be placed in the article to give context to the influence of the byrdland in relation to the numbers actually manufactured. The raw data speaks for itself as represented in the link, but if to get the information into the article I am happy to extract the apposite numbers. There is an important article published by George Gruhn on the Byrdland a world renowned expert on vintage and rare guitars and the history of the instrument, that there is no reference to this article is a material shortcoming, in my opinion, of the entry as it stands. I am reminded of the old saying about those living in glass houses not throwing stones. RogerGLewis (talk) 20:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) I have now slept on this and re-read what i have said above and reflected on the rules/suggestions as to what appropriate links to a subject/entry should be. A link that clarifies a point or supports a statement should be considered as valid. The existing link in this article to notable players leads to a generic list of endorsed gibson players of all of their models, the link I have posted whilst it links to a forum it is the moderated forum of the Gibson company in the Hollow and semi hollow body section of the forum. The Gibson forum is a valuable source of information on all things to do with Gibson models as a source it is useful and as a link re-enforcing an already weak link it would seem to me to add something to the article.WIth respect to the link to shipping figures the information on this site is extremely well researched and is the best representation I have come across of all shipping figures for Gibson guitars. A large amount of interest in Gibson guitars has been generated by the famous 1959 and 1960 Les Paul Standard model which have exchanged hands for $1,000,000 plus privately and at auction, prices in excess of $500,000 are routine. 1278 Les Paul Standards were shipped in 59/60. Now consider the Byrdland first production run up to 1969 when from 1955 through to 1969 only 1147 were ever made the largest production/shipping run being in 1968 when 198 were shipped. This sort of information is available by looking at the sources I have suggested as a link. The current precised entry looking at the history going way back has become very sparce but does not communicate the substance of this instrument either by example or by reference, On the above basis I propose to re-instate the links I suggest today and would ask that should other contributors wish to add a further piece within the main article contextualising the links, could we exchange messages and decide what would be appropriate. I would equally accept that some explanation ahead of the links could help to clarify what direction those links lead. There really isn't a condensed source of information on the web for the Gibson Byrdland and I am excited that Wikipedia at least has the opportunity to provide a window into the very great history of this instrument a lot of younger guitarists I think seem to have the impression it's just something that Ted Nugent plays?RogerGLewis (talk) 08:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

See below for the offending links. - RogerGLewis (talk) 12:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks like you may have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia. Please do not add such material without permission from the copyright holder. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. The text you added to the page came from http://www.jazzblues.org/news.php?viewStory=264 srushe (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

What am I doing talking to a robot. I actually removed this myself realising it was probably not good to cut and paste I added a line of text however mentioning that Anthony Wilson notably played and owns a late 50's Gibson Byrdland quite an important part of his sound particularly with Diane Krall her other well known accompiansit Russel malone also used a Byrdland when with Ms Krall. In all honesty this really is all in all a rather frustrating place to try to contribute. It's hardly suprising that it has a reputation for wild innaccuracy!RogerGLewis (talk) 20:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Entries

There are a few noteable ommisions from the list of Gibson Players, I would like to nominate a few for consideration where does one initiate the process of offering up worthy entrants for such saintification?RogerGLewis (talk) 05:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It isn't a nomination process. If an entry satisfies the criteria of the lead-in they can be added. Some IP added Kenny Burrell... with no citations from reliable sources.. which are a must or else they are removed. The Real Libs-speak politely 10:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC) Hello libs, that was a guy from the gibson forums called Robert Nahaum he's from Australia and something of an expert on L5's and other Gibson Archtops and Jazz players,at least it was probably Robert he also nominated George Benson who played an L5 and there is a link to George benson in the Wilkipedia it is out of date in that it hasn't recorded his death several years ago. George Benson is generally accepted as one of the greatest jazz players of all time his collection of guitars was sold by Skinners of Boston last Spring I think it was the L5 which I think once belonged to Wes Montgomery sold for £41,000. Citations to reliable sources is an interesting one is the extant entry on George Benson considered reliable. What is the citation for KT Tunstall as an example?I'm sure that we will all get the hang of this eventually, it would be nice to be able to view entries without some obvious jarring omissions. One of the other Gibson Forum people mentioned Mary Ford who played Guitar with Les Paul, a gibson acoustic and a les paul when they came out part of the Les Pauls initial popularity was based on Mary Fords and Les Pauls celebruity in the US, Mary Ford really should be on the list there are plenty of others. Mike Bloomfield is a featured guitarist on the Gibson site this week with a sig model Les Paiul, Trini Lopez has a signature Gibson Model that alone would seem to qualify under the three headings. Thanks for your continuing input it is much appreciated. RogerGLewis (talk) 14:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Entries like that are great. But they need citations. Editor "experts" are = WP:NOR and fail WP:RS. Newspapers, magazines and books can all be cited. When it is a specific instrument... that instrument needs to be detailed in order to show "notability". Attempts have been made to add Bloomfield already... his inclusion would be superb. (he is on the Tele player list) But the entries did not have valid refs. Same for Lopez... another great addition (gloriously omitted up to now for lacking refs). An new entry should never just say "X played a 19XX X model". There are already too many of those that still need cleanup or removal. IF you want to see an excellent entry on a notable player list... go to the List of Stratocaster players and read the Rory Gallagher entry. Great wording. Quotes (cited quotes) are excellent additions. For this page most of the entries are still sparse (the Les Paul one being a good example) At the same time there are already articles for each specific model so we can't have too much duplication of content. The Jimmy Page and Keith Richards entries on this page are decent. The Billy gibbons entry is a good example of a shorter one. Again... quotes really help flesh out an entry. Leslie West is associated closely with the LP Junior. A quote from him about the little orphan would be welcome. Same for Johnny Winter and his long devotion to the Firebird. Does anyone use a 135 with more dedication than Thorogood?... not too many in the rock world. But his entry just says "uses an ES-135". *Sigh*... a continual work in progress. Just "using" a model doesn't cut it. We need to emphasise "notability". with citations... just as the article lead-in paragraph states (there are also some hidden rules on the page that are viewable when the edit box is clicked) Notable Gibson players doesn't just cover guitars either. The Achilles heel of the entire article is the lack of mandolin and banjo players. A few are included. A few more would balance the article out. Everyone and his dog has played a Les Paul. If the lead-in is followed it makes it easier to clear the "users" from the "notable users" I have read a few of the posts on the Gibson forum to your newly opened discussion. None of the editors "got it right" as none seemed to understand the strict criteria of the lead-in. And one post was full of information that was just flat out wrong. The List of Telecaster players is a good example of a notable player list. Hope that helps. The Real Libs-speak politely 16:21, 1 April 2009 (UTC) Thanks real libs, I'll take all of that constructive advice on board and set about preparing citations etc in line with the model examples of Billy Gibbons and Rory Gallagher (one of my particular favourites, so will enjoy reading that anyhow) On the Mando and Banjo front I'll e-mail a few of the guys into those instruments and see if I can drum up a bit of interest for them to mobilise their expertise in this direction. Thanks again RogerGLewis (talk) 18:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It really isn't worth the effort

Probably the most unhelpful environmnet I've ever encountered, I'm out of here.RogerGLewis (talk) 19:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

'Bye! Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC) Thank you, it's been interesting, a kind of reverse learning exerience.86.146.42.147 (talk) 07:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * After 12 Years I think its actually got worse here on Wikippedia.        RogerGLewis (talk) 13:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Answers to questions
I did not say that anyone did not deserve an article. If a subject passes WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC they can have an article created on Wikipedia... feel free to create any article you wish. But remember that the project has several policies in place (like WP:BIO and NN article subjects. Unless an article already exists... they cannot be added to the Gibson list (or any other player list for that matter) As for Bennett/Benson. Their inclusion would be valid. But the worded entry must show detail for use + notability of use. Your entry for George Benson said "Great Jazz player"... and thats it. Said nothing about the L5... nothing about its previous owner... nothing about its auction sale.... nothing. As for Bennett... the entry capitalised the word white???... included the word Gibson?? in front of Byrdland ( its a Gibson player article so identifying models as "Gibson" is redundant... thats written in the lead-in hidden text and also covered extensively on the talk page ) + again... did not distinguish why he was notable for the Byrdland use. The list would benefit from having both entries if they were written properly and not added in a writing style of a grade 3 book report. "Great jazz player"... any 8 year could write that. The Benson reference has lots of information that could be compiled into a decent entry... instead the entry was a sparce 3 words that said nothing. The content of the Bennett link is simply a Wikipedia mirror site which fails policy WP:RS and cannot be used. References must pass WP:RS and must support the notability criteria for inclusion. Hope that helps

Frankly libs charecterising the addition of a few words as the writing style of an 8 year old is just silly. The Benson article already existed that establishes him as a great jazz player, his use of an L5 is proven in the Skinners auction catalogue which was posted as a link, I thought the double provenance point with the link to another noteable Gibson Player Wes Montgomery was particularly nice. Wayne Bennett is a noteable guitar player his byrdalnd was a present from BB King, according to his daughter. BB King and Bobby Bland have guest appeared together countless times, a lot of great Jazz ad Blues players pay tribute to Bennett. BY definition a lot of noteable Byrdland players will not be well known or famous, today even if they were back in the day which wouldn't be necessary to make them noteable, but they are noteable to their peer group and their style of playing will have influenced many other artists. On the Bennett entry to the list I think the evidence is there but several links to several places cross referenced back to the Wiki article if they exist is quite a lot of work. The Donna Stoneman edit I think was particularly harsh as well, I wanted to Add Mary Ford as well I haven't checked if theres an article for her yet. I don't see how an obviously incomplete and deficient list can get featured status just because all of the citations and links cross check the extreme example of that would be one perfectly constructed entry linked to an article and so on but the  fact would remain that a list with obvious ommisions shouldn't be given any sort of featured status it should only be featured in a section of lists  with lots more work needed.RogerGLewis (talk) 15:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Some important guidelines

 * WP:PEACOCK
 * WP:NPOV

Please read these carefully so you can see why we have done what we have done.

Reading the other guidelines might come in handy, too.

Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 21:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion
This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident in which you may be involved. Thank you. Bondegezou (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2016 (UTC) Thank you for the notification Bondegezou who has posted the other endorsements if not supporters of the other candidates in some if not all the cases ? The list of endorsements for Shahrar Ali for instance is very short on a lot of heavy weight endorsements I added David Malone to the list of his endorsers David also endorses Andrew Cooperboth of whom can not be elected yet David makes an endorsement of both. claiming conflict of interest in poliitical campaigns seems to me mired in problems, singling me out appeals to my well developed sense of absurdity, but thats a matter for others.I will continue looking at the other contributions to point out the errors and inconsitencies in applying standards of policy. Meanwhile I will follow the process with interest.RogerGLewis (talk) 16:12, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, most of the endorsements added have been by regular Wikipedia editors who are interested in politics. But it doesn't matter who initially added material: what matters is whether the community agrees that the material is appropriate. Other endorsements have been retained in the article because other editors have been satisfied the material satisfies basic Wikipedia standards.
 * In your case, you appear to have identified yourself not merely as someone who wants to see Malone win -- which I would not see as a conflict of interest -- but as someone actively working with the Malone campaign. That clearly comes under WP:COI rules.
 * The addition of information on further endorsements, where sufficiently notable and well sourced, would be very welcome. Bondegezou (talk) 16:34, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I have no problem with sources being proven and reliable regardless of who posts, sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander. Application in this case is not being consistent. On Notability there are several problems with the Wikipedia Page idea and also the bar would apply differently say at Local elections to National ones. The Green Party is a Small all beit growing party with a 60,000 membership the only Greens of National Noteriety are Caroline and a lesser extent Natalie. In a grass roots policy up party like the greens grass roots local level positions are very important and noteworthy, also with the lack of media interest in the greens generally and in this leadership contest in particular it is arguable that all the green candidates in this election fall at the first hurdle when it comes to Being noteworthy in the snese of Green Party leadership most people on the street would be unable to name any of the candidates and even more would be ignorant that there is any contest at all. All that said I appreciate your concerns which you quite rightly voice regarding my own impartiality and I echo those concerns on other entries as well which are remarkable self referential and unsupported by any measure set to avoid circular reference. I have linked to the actual Face book accounts of Davids three endorsements by folk holding official green party positions and suggested a link to Ian Frasers Glasgow herald profile where he was a fairly recent Business Editor. RogerGLewis (talk) 16:46, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Greens are a more minor party, so there are fewer notable figures associated with the party (although the Lucas/Bartley campaign has managed to attract a fair few). The solution to that, however, should not be to throw away standard practice. If the Greens are a lesser party, they can expect less coverage in Wikipedia, as per WP:DUE. It is not Wikipedia's responsibility to bend the rules to compensate for the Greens minor status and lack of media coverage. Bondegezou (talk) 16:58, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

This is a stubb article of marginal interest out side of the Green Party, within the green party David Malone and other officials of the green party represent a sub set related to the content of this article and internal green party politics. To do justice to the actual reference elctorate in this leadership election for disinterested people looking for some idea of what historically happened in the Green Leadership Election of 2016 surely it is the Green party folk who put together information concerning who is supporting who and who is a ranking influencer, that is relevant. For stub articles this guidance must I think apply in this case. ''Any editing or additional material can be helpful. The provision of meaningful content should be a priority. The best solution for a Stub-class Article to step up to a Start-class Article is to add in referenced reasons of why the topic is significant.'' I have also drawn attention to the misleading link at link 3 to the 2012 party constitution. This Link is wholly misleading to an article on the Leadership when section 8 related to leadership and executive matters was substantailly changed so as to render the 2012 constitution meaningless for the purposes of this leadership election.

I will encourage other candidates and their supporters to try and improve the article further, your efforts are appreciated Bondegezoutalk even though we have some differences of interpretation hopefully some other editors can chip in and improve things as I think we both want that. I am very concerned that Wikipedia should be as good as it can be and would not want to detract from its quality in any way.18:27, 15 August 2016 (UTC)RogerGLewis (talk)

I note with interest and thank Brianhe (talk) 15:46, 16 August 2016 (UTC [6] for this input regarding the charge of conflict of interest. ″With respect to all editors involved, I don't see a substantiated COI issue here. This looks like a content dispute which is to be conducted on the article's talkpage″. - Brianhe (talk) 15:46, 16 August 2016 (UTC RogerGLewis (talk) 20:20, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Noticeboard issue
I'm making exactly the same comment here as I did for the other editor. If you want to continue the COI issue, please do so at the COI Noticeboard, not my talkpage. Thanks. - Brianhe (talk) 20:51, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Understood and I apologise Brianhe, I will re post my comment here for the benefit of Bondegezou Bondegezou Hello, I am happy to clarify any specific questions. I would point out there is a difference between being interested and having a conflict of interest the distinction is I think clearly seen from what I have already said and my conduct also bears out the fact that no evidence points to a conflict of interest being evident or indeed latent by making inappropriate or biased edits. I have reviewed the relevant policies posted by others, as well as guidance for stub articles and there is no basis, evidence or indeed truth in characterising my editing of this Article as tainted by conflict of Interest. In political matters as I have already stated conflicts of interest are an absurd notion in that we all have our own allegiance. My own allegiances here are not party political or Partisan they are ideological, as I have explained I am a monetary reform activist and support the Green Policy 2015 manifesto commitments on Monetary reform and universal INCOME. I am actually if I must be catagorised an Eco Anarchist and the electoral processes of State election systems require me to hold my nose in becoming involved. As a stoic and pragmatic philosopher i do actually have a commitment to praxis of seeking fundamental changes to the economic system particularly Money creation and it is this which leads me to admire and support some green party political actors more than others including the Three I have dubbed #TheGreenPistols, but as long as the green party manifesto policy policy EC661 ´´The Green Party believes that, as the means of exchanging goods and services, the stock of money is a vital common resource which should be managed in the public interest. Yet only 3% of our money supply currently exists in the form of notes and coins issued by the Government or the Bank of England. 97% of the money circulating in the economy takes the form of credit that is created electronically by private banks through the accounting processes they follow when they make loans. for an idea of the full extent of tax payer value of such a policy see´´,stands I will do what I can to help those who advocate for those economic policies to achieve their self set goals, even where that involves seeking political office which I do not believe in There are the politicians in all of the main parties for who I make my own contributions in an uncoerced , unofficial but committed fashion including Jeremy Corbyn, Steve Baker ( conservative MP for High Wycombe) and other organizations I also do my own thing for. most are thankful and some become friends but of course in my world there are no Gods and No Masters and as such no conflicts of interest. I have no conflict of interest and whilst my degree of commitment to the ideals I believe in might strike some as odd it is no more odd than being a wikipedia editor. I would spend more time on Wikipedia but my activism and work in my field does not overlap very often with a need or inclination to make contributions here this is a rare exception. I have noticed that an early editor on the GPL2016 article here is also someone I know and I have also written to other Greens encouraging their active participation in improving this Stub article, looking at the group project page I am struck by some of the guidelines and would venture they are very good and might be paid a little more attention Be polite, and welcoming to new users − Assume good faith

− Avoid personal attacks

− For disputes, seek dispute resolution I take all of these principles on board and there is nothing here we can not resolve. The Conflict of Interest point is I think dealt with if not then do please make a substantive argument Bondegezou it seems to me thin broth upon which to base any banquet though?20:49, 16 August 2016 (UTC)RogerGLewis (talk)RogerGLewis (talk) 21:00, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Brianhe closed this discussion, but agreed to re-open it on my request. While there are content disputes, I don't feel the COI issue has been resolved. Specifically, User:RogerGLewis made the followings comments at Talk:Green Party of England and Wales leadership election, 2016, having added a set of endorsements for candidate David Malone: "Here are the endorsements I have listed I am awaiting a further list from David Malone and crosschecking both his endorsements of deputy leadership candidates and other endorsements he has also recieved" diff "I am assisting David Malone with his campaign media and there is a legnthy list of other endorsements which i hope to be updating over the next few days." diff But also said: "I am not a member of the Green party and whilst I support David Malone this is based upon my own area of political involvment [...] With independant endorsements suitably cited it is actually irrelevant whether or not I personally support or am employed by Malone. In fact I am not employed and do not act in any official capacity for Malone but have been doing some social media support for Malone purley on a voluntary and independant basis." diff The former comments imply an active involvement with a campaign team, a clear conflict of interest, although the last quote may suggest otherwise. Further comments from RogerGLewis have not explained the earlier quotes, but have denied a COI or indeed the validity of the concept. The most detailed are at User_talk:RogerGLewis#Noticeboard_issue. RogerGLewis: what did you mean by the first two quotes? Are you in regular contact with Malone about his campaign? O wise minds of COIN, input on the content dispute of course welcome, but what do you think of the COI issue? Thanks. PS: RogerGLewis, please note WP:CANVASS. Bondegezou (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2016 (UTC) Bondegezou talk I have spoken to David Malone 3 times since the end of June I have also spoken with Andrew Williams who has been editing on this page we both had a conference call with David at the beginning of the campaign to discuss informally how social media works in the modern political process ( This I have counted in my 3 conversations via Skype ) I have never met David Malone in person and shaken hands let alone broken bread or shared a cup of tea or had a Coffee purchased for me at whatever coffee houses there are in Scarborough.I participate and have done since 2011 in the active and lively comments section of Davids Blog where Davids running was announced other readers there have gone further than me in that they have joined the Green party specifically to vote for him, I do not engage in party political politics and have political opinions which are negative against the illusion of choice democracy that masquerades as real democracy, I have explained this elsewhere but a discourse on my own politics is surely not necessary is this the new inquisition, ( see Ekklesia, for good faith assumptions and also) [1] [2] I am not formally directed by or allied to the Malone Campaign and have no financial, political or filial interest in the outcome of this Election and therefore no conflict of interest within the Wikipedia definitions and the wider professional and legal definitions of the term. I am a Member of the RICS and have studied Conflicts of interest as they apply to my professional Field of expertise as a past admissions assessor for the RICS membership board I have professional experience of interviewing candidates on their obligations with regard to conflicts of interest. I have also studied Ethics and Jurisprudence as part of my Philosophy studies. I do not have a conflict of interest.Should my editing indicate a possibility of Bias I could understand your continuing questioning on this issue, Andrew Williams sent me an e mail this morning saying he is returning from Hols at the weekend and will sort out the links for the endorsements I have added should they indeed need sorting out?, perhaps you would hold this in abeyance and settle the question of Notability and Source reference with Andrew. I have accepted your explanation on Ekklesia [3], and possible connection COI to the Bartley/Lucas campaign in good faith, I see no reason why you will not reciprocate in kind, but that is a matter for you. I respect that you must act according to your own volition. I have exchanged comments on blogs with Clive Lord and I have also posted a series of Blogs on my own blog which I have of course not referred to as it would be improper to do so, I have promoted and engaged in discussion on the Leadership to ensure that Monetary reform and Green Party Manifesto Policy EC661 I blogged about this policy in 2015 [4] and have many posts in comments sections on many publications referring to it and explaining its import to Political Economy, I support David Malone as he wishes to expand and explain this part of green policy and that coincides with my own political objectives as informed by my own activism which is unaffiliated to any organisation or other individual although I do identify as a supporter of various campaigns including the Malone Green Party Leadership campaign Supporting a candidate and declaring support does not constitute a conflict of interest, one also realises that ones editing should not be biased and I think it is safe to say there is no indication of Bias in my interventions here whilst I do have concerns that the Article is unbalanced and gives a bias in the Direction of Lucas/Bartley which I am sure they would also be horrified by. With respect to Lists and wikipedia not being one, I expect that David Malone will receive more votes than Natalie Bennet secured to win the leadership in 2012 Bartley and Lucas will similarly get more votes, Williams is likely also to poll a larger number as well Clive Lord Martie Warin and Simon Cross will also I think poll between them more votes than the winning tally from 2012. As the turnout is unlikely to be lower than 2012 and the membership is enlarged to 60,000 and with declared support for Davids Campaign already having been counted in the order of several hundred messages, 5 endorsements hardly count's as a list and as I have said before it is absurd to have an article which suggests that The front runners and other Candidates have no notable endorsements In politics notability must also be in the eye of the beholder, for instance Nigel Farage would not consider an endorsement from Marie Le Penn or Tommy Robinson for instance to be noteable, in a good way at least. No candidate would wish to give the impression of scraping the bottom of the barrel by citing a bloke up the pub, that said he thought the policies of x were mint. I 'have expanded on my reasoning elsewhere regarding the distinguishing features for a sui-generis approach to the extant election. Again I invite you to await input form Andrew when he returns from Hols. Meanwhile shall we do some constructive work on a metric for more Democratic elections for parties like the Greens.I will have a look at the Labour Leadership, UKIP leadership and other STV AV examples and put something up for discussion in the Elections and referenda talk page if you think that is a good idea? RogerGLewis (talk) 07:21, 17 August 2016 (UTC) 07:37, 17 August 2016 (UTC)07:37, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

ANI noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

August 2016
Your recent edits to WP:ANI could give Wikipedia contributors the impression that you may consider legal or other "off-wiki" action against them, or against Wikipedia itself. Please note that making such threats on Wikipedia is strictly prohibited under Wikipedia's policies on legal threats and civility. Users who make such threats may be blocked. If you have a dispute with the content of any page on Wikipedia, please follow the proper channels for dispute resolution. Please be sure to comment on content, not contributors, and where possible make specific suggestions for changes supported by reliable independent sources and focusing especially on verifiable errors of fact. Thank you. -- samtar talk or stalk 09:03, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Additionally, you have made a legal threat at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums -- samtar talk or stalk 09:05, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello Samtar, I am not considering taking legal action although I suspect that both UKIP and The Green Party will be less than amused could you advise of the best place to bring this serious matter to a quick resolution please?RogerGLewis (talk) 09:10, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I find that hard to believe - your edit summary here states "Notice of possible legal action!" -- samtar talk or stalk 09:20, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I meant by the Green Party or UKIP not by me, it was not a threat but an observation, sorry for any confusion. RogerGLewis (talk) 09:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, understood - I've collapsed the above warning in good faith, and apologise for the misunderstanding. In the future, I would reccomend not mentioning "legal action" -- samtar talk or stalk 09:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

samtar you can count on that, thanks for your swift action. RogerGLewis (talk) 09:46, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I've removed some of the material that references this page at the article Talk page. You have to stop refactoring that talk page. You also have to stop using other editors' usernames embedded in your posts with their sigs so that it's not clear who's saying what. You've done that with multiple different usernames, including mine. Once one of your comments has been responded to, you can't go back in and change your comment. If you want to say something different, then add it, but don't alter your comment after the fact. It's misleading and again distorts what others say. I'm rapidly losing patience with your style of interaction at Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, and if you can't interact reasonably with the community, then you have no business editing here.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:32, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Bbb23 Could you explain what Re-Factoring is, using embeded usernames I will stop doing I did not know it caused issues. On editing after the event, I am trying to go back and precis my longer entrys in talk as User57 explained that even on talk pages the convention is to stay under 200 words, obviously I can happily admit I have not been doing that and I will teach myself to quote the wording in policy I wish to refer too without quoting the relevant passages, which obviously leads to bloated word counts. On Reasonableness I do not accept that I have been un-reasonable. Losing patience with Style of interaction where it is through a novices incompetence is of course understandable( if assistance is rejected or ignored), I hope you will see that I have been attempting to rapidly improve my competence and will continue to do so. On the point about re editing comments after the event that puts me in something of a quandry as if I am to precis my arguments to conform with the 200 words convention to encourage others to participate and as explained in my interaction with you earlier RogerGLewis (talk) 13:04, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I encourage you to keep your word count down, but for the future. Don't go back in and cut down on your text unless it hasn't yet been responded to at all. Once there's a response, it remains. See WP:TPO for information about refactoring.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:54, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Bbb23 Thanks for that, timely advice for which I am most grateful. It seems there is hope of a settlement via consensus if a suitable process and time period can be agreed, I remain optomistic.RogerGLewis (talk) 14:00, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

An invitation to discussion
I kindly invite you to the discussion on Template talk:Infobox election to decide whether to bold the winner in the election infobox. Lmmnhn (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Concerns of Corporate Green-washing
Greta Thonberg responded to concerns of corporate capture of her message which has been expressed by the Wrong Kind of Green, an Indigenous peoples environmental group. "We attempt to expose those who undermine the People’s Agreement. One role of the non-profit industrial complex is to undermine, marginalize and make irrelevant, the People’s Agreement. The reason being, to protect corporate interests by which they are funded. As well, the non-profit industrial complex protects the industrialized, capitalist economic system, responsible for the capitalist destruction of our shared environment. Those groups who continue to protect such interests must be considered complicit in crimes against humanity."RogerGLewis (talk) 02:44, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * /* Concerns of Corporate Green-washing */ I am reverting this new section if you wish to suggest and edit then please do It is clearly a concern looking at previous comments . I will initiate a consensus process if the revertiung continues. WH RogerGLewis (talk) 19:10, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Consensus Process,

Please suggest constructive edits I am happy to improve the section in consensus with the community. SHould a constructive section not be arrived at then I wish to institute a consensus process similar to the one in my Talk pages on The Green Party Leadership election of 2016 and 2018 and the Bolding issue in the elections template. Any more vandalism and I will seek adjudication from a senior editor. An invitation to discussion I kindly invite you to the discussion on Template talk:Infobox election#The Bolding issue to decide whether to bold the winner in the election infobox. Lmmnhn (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

RogerGLewis (talk) 19:35, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Invitation to the final vote on the bolding issue
Thank you for participating in the bolding issue of the election infobox earlier. We are now holding a final vote in order to reach a clear and final consensus. Please take a moment to review our discussion and vote in Template talk:Infobox election. Lmmnhn (talk) 14:50, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

DS Alert climate change
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * NewsAndEventsGuy Thank you for the helpful reminder. Perhaps you could help, In both the Article on Greta and the article on extinction rebellion it is clear that there is a feeling that both articles read as biased as if prepared by a PR copywriter. Both articles would usefully have a section regarding controversy / Criticism of the movements, How do you suggest that the balance is be introduced in a fair non- controversial way? I would propose a plain criticism section with links to source? would you agree and assist in this?RogerGLewis (talk) 12:45, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * If there are quality RS's with criticisms, of course I'd support neutral editing to present these criticisms with appropriate weight. I mean, of course. Please don't edit Wikipedia to make a WP:POINT, and if you have such sources then by all means, WP:SOFIXIT. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:49, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion edit warring
Hi RogerGLewis. Your recent edits to Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion adding a section entitled "Concerns of Corporate Greenwashing" were reverted by me and other editors, and I noticed you have reverted those reversions. It's great that you started sections on the talk pages of those articles to discuss this addition. However, you've also reverted multiple other editors (edit warring) with edit summaries indicating you think the language should stay in the article while discussion takes place on the talk page. I'd ask you to please review WP:BRD. The process is that a bold addition that is reverted must be discussed on the talk page before it's put back in. Another editor has reverted your reversion at Extinction Rebellion and I have reverted it at Greta Thunberg. Please don't put that language back in–instead, continue with the discussions you started, and wait for consensus to build before restoring the content. Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you. Levivich 21:19, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

My notes about the edit warring... Greta Thunberg Extinction Rebellion Warnings and some discussions NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:41, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 02:41, February 11 2019 Bold edit
 * 11:17, February 11 2019 First Revert
 * Second revert
 * 02:45, February 11, 2019 (+1,058) Bold edit
 * 11:20, February 11, 2019 (+1,058) First Revert
 * 19:11, February 11, 2019 (+1,058) Second Revert
 * February 6, 2019  DS Alert Climate Change
 * February 11, 2019 Another editor,, left an edit war warning note
 * Talk pages for both articles


 * NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) Thanks for this, I like the WP:BRD approach and have instituted the consensus proicedure on both pages, DIrcting Thionberg page to Extinction rebellion page, it is the same critisism of both articles and the same proposed improvement to balance the articles.

Further up the page this struck me as a fair comment.Neutrality concerns This article looks like it was written by a PR person. I think this might be the result of certain parties trying to manipulate people's perception of this person by curating her Wikipedia article.

My arguments are that this article:

lists her "ancestor on her father's side" as a notable relative, which is very contrived. While Svante contributed to global warming research, he died in 1927 and him being included feels like someone trying to force him into the article. Global warming knowledge is not transferred genetically; was created on 1 Dec 2018 (just over a month ago), and it's already featured as a "Did you know" on the front page where she's described as "inspiration". Someone is influencing how this person is viewed in the public eye; is about a person whose parents are successful public figures—ones who could afford hiring PR people to represent their daughter, and who understand the value of publicity; I am not opposed to the politics this person represents. I am bringing this up because I believe Wikipedia should be impartial, and this article doesn't feel objective. It feels like it was written by a marketer hired to manage this person's public image. RogerGLewis (talk) 06:17, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Oops... looks like canvassing
It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on a biased choice of users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence Extinction Rebellion. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Thank you.
 * In this case a possible canvassing comment is at the article talk page. There are many appropriate ways to call other eds attention to discussions.  Some are listed at WP:APPNOTE.  Most new editors do the wrong kind of canvassing to recruit select people to take their side and swing consensus there way.  I'm not sure which is the case here, but I thought I would call the canvassing rules to your attention.  The potentially problem comment is here.  If an APPNOTE exception applies then my apologies but at first glance it looks like a call-out to a single ed you believe will take your side.  If APPNOTE does not apply it would be good form to just delete that part of your remark.  Of course you are invited to get as much input using APPNOTE techniques as you can get. Usually more input makes better consensus. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:13, 12 February 2019 (UTC)


 * NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) I reject the charge which you made, The discussion in the article has comments to ping those interested as you are messaging me is not biased canvassing. The consensus process is starting and Any infraction which you may have identified in your opinion was on my part inadvertent. Please note the consensus bold editing dispute advice which recommends assumption of good faith etc. I am not easily offended but do please observe the niceties yourself.

RogerGLewis (talk) 18:51, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Editing your own comments
Roger, you can change your comments if (A) no one has replied and (B) if you don't wait too long. Today I restored some of your words because a third ed had already replied and without your comment their words make no sense. Instead of me linking the "editing your own" comments, it is crystal clear that you have not studied the full scope of our WP:Talk page guidelines so please do that. You will find not only guidelines on editing your own comments but loads of other good info too. Layout comes to mind and good practices both come to mind. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:55, 12 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the advice, I am only a casual Wikipedia editor and I always try to keep to the guidelines, I respect and wish to honour community rules and appreciate your assistance.RogerGLewis (talk) 18:53, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

RogerGLewis (talk) 12:59, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Stop mentioning me
I got ten messages today that someone had mentioned me. It was you every time. Therefore, I switched off the option that I get a message when someone mentions me.

So, if you want to continue harrassing me, don't bother. It will not work anymore. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:20, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I take it you do not wish to work on the lede then? RogerGLewis (talk) 07:41, 23 March 2021 (UTC) There are so many libels in here that it is difficult to count them. You cannot call a qualified doctor a quack unless you are willing to defend a libel action. In addition to self publishing Coleman has written books published by a dozen major UK publishers, over 30 foreign publishers, large print publishers and audio publishers. It isnt difficult to see evidence of over 100 books in 25 languages. The page as most recently edited is prejudiced, biased and inaccurate. Why not mention why Coleman left The People (because a column criticising the Iraq war was rejected). Is it not of significance that the government changed its policy on tranquilliser prescribing because of Coleman. (See Hansard). Coleman was the author of the first software for computers. See Times article. The ASA is a private organisation which refused to look at evidence linking meat and cancer and then tried to ban an ad for the book. The ad was then published (full page) by The Observer and The Guardian. Coleman has been widely praised by almost all UK national papers. See his website. Coleman has presented programmes on BBC and ITV. He was the first TV agony uncle and the TV AM doctor. The Youtube video title has a wuestion mark at the end. Have any of these critics actually watched it? Why no mention of Colemans speech to UKIP. (I see that Guy believes that Brexit was swung by Putin. And he calls Coleman a crank! Also Guy works for a company making mobile phones. Coleman has been a stern critic of mobile phones. A clear conflict of interest. EMJ Books has been an imprint run by Coleman since the 1990s. Colemans books are still being published by 'proper' publishers around the world. Coleman who is in his 70s took his name off the register. It is no longer possible for retired doctors to have a licence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23wqr (talk • contribs) 00:55, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vernon_Coleman_(2nd_nomination) Here is a re draft of the lede. with some citations as to suggested good practice in Lede writing.

Vernon Coleman (born 18 May 1946) is an English blogger and novelist who writes on topics related to human health, politics and animal issues.He was formerly a newspaper columnist, and general practitioner (GP). Originally coming to prominence as the original TV doctor in the UK. [5]. Dr Coleman again came to prominence during the 2020 Pandemic after publishing a video on youtube[6] which provoked criticism that he was a conspiracy theorist(n 1), anti-vaccination activist, and AIDS denialist. New proposed lede ends.

RogerGLewis (talk) 07:46, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Refrain from spamming
Roger, I have six alerts here where you have mentioned me on the Piers Corbyn talk page of which I am not involved in. You have also repeatedly been warned not to continue spamming the Vernon Coleman talk page with nonsensical copy pastes. As you are clearly not abiding by these simple rules I am issuing a warning:

 You may be blocked from editing without further warning''' the next time you use talk pages for inappropriate discussions, as you did at Talk:Vernon Coleman. ''' MrEarlGray (talk) 11:42, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

March 2021
Please refrain from abusing warning or blocking templates. Doing so is a violation of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please use the user warnings sandbox for any tests you may want to do, or take a look at our introduction page to learn more about contributing to the encyclopedia. Please refrain from abusing edit-war templates towards an individual who is not involved in an edit-war. MrEarlGray (talk) 12:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

MrEarlGray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution This process is what is advised and as the consensus process has not been set in appropriate neutral pages for adjudication by neutral editors your accusations are somewhat spurious. I have been making it clear I wish to follow wikipedia protocols If when the proper channels are exhausted the Lede is voted to remain in its current state I would of course comply, we are far from that point the process as set out in the now served edit warring notice makes that quite clear, see page.

 You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 week for persistently making disruptive edits. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page:. Drmies (talk) 14:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

the various banners and templates are confusing and I am sorry I seem to have pinged Earl Gray I thought it automatically defaulted to the editor issuing the block? RogerGLewis (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

 UTRS decline I'm sorry, but I cannot unblock you at this time. Please describe in greater detail how your editing was unconstructive and how you would edit constructively if unblocked. ( Please read Wikipedia's Guide to appealing blocks for more information. (Guide to appealing blocks) As you still have access to your talk page, please post your unblock request to your user talk page, omitting any off-Wiki personally identifying information. If you have not already done so, please place the following at the bottom of your talk page, filling in "Your reason here " . Thank you for your attention to these matters. Please see

  -- Deep fried okra  ( talk ) 02:46, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

.

Note for reviewing Admin. Nowhere in all this has it been noted that Roger, having driven a Coach and Horses through talk page ettiquette, has also removed at least two entries to the discussion that I had made, messed with my signature at least once, and still has not even disturbed a pixel at WP:TPG. Hence my WP:CIR suggestion. Can we ensure that he stops banjaxing about with his stupid templates, that he still believes he is was placing according to guidelines. Get him to demonstrate some basic understanding of using Talk pages properly in terms of indentation, signing, templates, deleting peoples posts and in making the point economically. -Roxy the grumpy dog . wooF 05:23, 24 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your interjection Roxy the dog,It is quite clear that my own interjections clash somewhat with your own style. I have made some clumsy mistakes it is true, they have not been intentional. Your own tone I am sure you will agree might be misinterpreted your own talk page has a section on Sarcastic edit summaries, sarcasm and personal attacks can be mistaken for each other? Perhaps we could both try to engage in the process of making the Lead in the article in question better and follow the resolution processes recommended  RogerGLewis (talk) 05:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Regarding use of talk pages I have read the page, I have also seen it referred to on another editors talk page Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.svg
 * Keep your arguments in the top 3 tiers. I don't know you, but from what I've seen so far you seem to spend a lot of time in the bottom 2. ~Awilley (talk) 18:38, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , curious that you two have not thought to confront PacMechEng for their advocacy of climate change denial talking points. Why is that? jps (talk) 18:49, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Nobody is advocating any climate change denial talking points in that conversation. Levivich, I think the point is well covered with this exchange on that talk page. I also read this RogerGLewis (talk) 05:52, 24 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Coolabahapple (talk) makes some still relevant comments in his vote to keep the article, found towards the end of the deletion discussion here RogerGLewis (talk) 06:10, 24 March 2021 (UTC)


 * talk (talk)

Your GA nomination of Vernon Coleman
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Vernon Coleman you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Bougatsa42 -- Bougatsa42 (talk) 18:00, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Unspecified source/license for File:Official portrait of Sam Lee.jpeg
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File permission problem with File:Official portrait of Sam Lee.jpeg
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Your GA nomination of Vernon Coleman
The article Vernon Coleman you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Vernon Coleman for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Bougatsa42 -- Bougatsa42 (talk) 14:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

The Ending of the Long Monetary Expansion Cycle and a Brave new world of Housing Realism.
== The Long Monetary Cycle, 1972-2023 and the Long Social Contract Cycle 1979-2003. The dynamics of Housing Financialisation and the Degradation of Social Housing Capital. ==

Introduction
ChatGPT says that Overall, the notes and reference document this essay is based upon, presents a neutral and informative tone, providing insights into the UK's housing market and related policies. That is Our Intention.

The discourse surrounding the "Housing Crisis" often neglects important actors and factors. These include the Absorption Rate, Last Time Buyers, Cash Buyers, Fiscal Policy (MIRAS and Stamp Duty), and Mortgage Lending and Credit creation by the Banking Sector. Additionally, the demography of an Ageing population and high levels of net Immigration must be considered. While both Demand and Supply sides should properly be analysed, there is a lack of popular or policy narrative literature on the segmentation of the Housing stock and its influence on prioritisation of choices and related resource and finance allocation for Land and construction across tenures, additional to the more common analysis of Mortgages for the Owner occupation market. The size of the New housing supply and the different players in the Housing Market are also important considerations. Polarisation of the discourse, with a focus solely on supply problems, hinders progress towards a solution. A more nuanced approach that considers demand-side factors such as interest rates, mortgage market liberalization, and income inequality is long overdue. RogerGLewis (talk) 12:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Home@ix has for the past 3 years looked at a range of topics related to the housing market and finance. It highlights the need to consider both supply and demand-side factors when analysing the market, and the now real potential for a European/US-US sovereign debt crisis. More recently we have noted the emergence of vulture investors in the buy-to-let mortgage market and explored the potential obstacle this may pose to workable solutions for affordable housing, including The HBF’s deposit unlock scheme and more speculatively a Rentenmark-style green bond (Wrigley),to support affordable house building. We emphasise the importance of understanding the different markets for housing services and assets, as well as the functions of money and its creation in the context of its traditional billing as a medium of exchange, measure of value, store of value, basis of credit, unit of account, and standard of postponed payment. Finally, the origins of the word 'mortgage' when explored, reveal its eerie root in the Latin term for 'death pledge', we wonder would this coinage still be in use in a prosperous home owning democracy and society with secure tenure and good housing for all. Perhaps the use of this antiquated term is an appropriate censure and reminder of the extent to which the Social benefits of secure home occupation supported as part of the valuable social capital of Civic society, have been eroded over the Boom and bust decades since 1980. Overall, we have sought to provide a thought-provoking analysis of the complex and interconnected issues surrounding housing and finance.

A potted historical analysis of the UK housing market from the post-World War 1 period to the present day will find certain standard factors that influenced housing demand and supply, such as population growth, migration, interest rates and the availability of mortgages and building land coupled to affordability in terms of household budgets. A clear feature one would have to note is that rationing was generally in force for much of the post-World War 2 period, which saw limited

access to loans and led to building society rationing during periods of high demand even when ration books for other goods were a fading memory and not known to the Post war generation of Boomers now approaching retirement. In the “Yuppy” merry go round of the 1980’s which saw the entry of banks into the housing market, interest rate movements have become the more likely way

to clear the market than rationing. As Yesterday post punk yuppies become today’s NIMBY's, House prices have risen in correlation with the increased money supply since the early 1980’s. This correlation and huge price growth has seen house prices and rental prices outstripping Wage growth which in turn has broken the fundamental relationship between incomes and rentals to Property values. This trend has been further exaggerated by the financialisation of Housing as an Asset class over and above its necessary social value. A trip down the housing memory lane would be remiss without asking what happened to government policies on housing, such as the "Homes fit for heroes" campaigns and the the post “Great War” Town Planning. Act of 1919. Overall we hope to provide valuable context into the UK housing market's past and present dynamics.

The issue of affordable housing in the UK has been a growing concern since the mid-1990s. The traditional means of providing suitable housing has been through a combination of local authority provision, private landlords, and home ownership supported by mortgages. However, with the liberalization of the housing market since the 1980s and light-touch regulation of the finance sector, the financing and distribution of housing have changed considerably. Land use policy, government policy, regulation of rent levels, and the availability of land for development are just a few of the dynamic variables that contribute to the problem. The modern property market is based on privately created debt money, distributed through the banking system. Following the financial crisis of 2008, there has been a focus on borrowers and their actions rather than the lenders and credit creation dynamics. This leads to a misdiagnosis of the problem as a supply shortage rather than an affordability and allocation issue. Addressing these complex variables requires a multi-faceted approach and a deeper understanding of the system as a whole.

The UK housing market is a complex and dynamic system that involves various stakeholders, including central and local government, house builders, SMEs, contractors, banks, and housing associations. The market has experienced several fluctuations in tenure ratios over the years. The post-World War 1 and post-World War 2 periods were characterized by a shortage of housing, leading to the construction of council houses. In the 1970s, there was a boom in the housing market, followed by a bust in the 1980s, which led to the introduction of the right-to-buy scheme. The 1990s saw another boom and bust, followed by the naughties boom and bust.

In recent years, the housing market has been impacted by various factors, including the pandemic, which has led to urban flight. The pandemic has also highlighted the need for a great reset in the housing market to address the current housing shortage and affordability crisis. The supply side of the market is influenced by land availability, planning regulations, and financing options. The shift towards larger house builders has reduced the number of SMEs in the market, while the contracting business has undergone several reviews to improve efficiency and sustainability and a similar consolidation into larger firms.

Banks play a crucial role in providing financing for land acquisition and construction procurement. However, the demand side of the market is driven by owner occupation, rental market, social housing, and buy-to-let options. The transfer of local authority housing to housing associations has led to their growth, while revenue from the right-to-buy scheme has not been invested in new stock.

Overall, the UK housing market is a broken dynamic system that requires collaboration and innovation from all stakeholders to address the current housing shortage and affordability crisis.

In concluding this introduction the UK housing market is a complex ecosystem that requires a holistic approach to address the current challenges. The pandemic has highlighted the need for a great reset in the housing market, which should involve collaboration and innovation from all stakeholders. The supply side of the market should focus on improving efficiency and sustainability, while the demand side should prioritise affordability and social housing options. The housing system is broken,but with concerted efforts from all stakeholders, it can be fixed.

The Housing Affordability Crisis.
In the debate surrounding what should properly be called “the housing affordability crisis” there has been a common agreement among think-tanks that a shortage of supply is the main cause of unaffordability. However, there has been little discussion on the role of demand-side factors such as interest rates and income inequality. These demand-side framing's are often unpopular among New Urban Economists and are seen as challenging the efficacy of free markets. Left-leaning think-tanks also tend to avoid demand-side explanations as they imply politically unfeasible policies such as wealth redistribution. As a result, supply-side framing's continue to dominate in the English policy discourse. It is important to consider both supply and demand-side factors when analysing the housing affordability crisis and when considering and developing a full range of policy solutions.

Chris Foy in his recent paper discusses the trend of think-tanks becoming more disciplined in their framing strategies since 2017, with examples from Shelter, Centre for Cities, and Policy Exchange. The explanation for this trend is attributed to changes in politics, particularly the vacuum in policymaking after the 2016 EU referendum, and We would add both during and since the Event 201 Pandemic. Framing strategies involve presenting a selective yet not factually inaccurate picture of empirical evidence and entwining it with a preferred policy agenda. However, this can lead to reductive debates and politically contingent causal narratives. A full treatment of the subject would consider  several factors all of which have culpability in contributing to the housing crisis  including demographics, wages, employment, the mortgage market, cash buyers, the Bank of Mum and Dad, and the effect on Generation Rent of student debt,the new innovation since the 1990’s.

The UK Housing Affordability Crisis: Discussion of main themes.
The UK housing affordability crisis has been a topic of discussion for several years now, with many experts agreeing that there is a significant problem. The issue is multifaceted, with various factors contributing to the current state of the market. Here we suggest some of the key issues and challenges associated with the UK housing affordability crisis.

Demographics
One of the main drivers of the housing crisis is population growth. As the population continues to increase, so does the demand for housing. This has led to a shortage of homes, which in turn has contributed to pushing up prices, or increased waiting lists. Another demographic factor contributing to the housing crisis is the ageing population and the size and age distribution of different types of households. One less talked about aspect of Household formation and Age

demographics is that as people get older, their housing needs change, and many require more specialised accommodation,there is a shortage of such homes, leaving many older people struggling to find suitable housing.

Wages and Employment
The relationship between wages and housing affordability is a complex one. In recent years, wages have failed to keep up with the rising cost of living, leaving many people struggling to make ends meet. This has made it increasingly difficult for people to save up for a deposit on a home. Additionally, the impact of unemployment on the housing market cannot be overlooked. When people lose their jobs, they often struggle to keep up with their mortgage or rental payments, leading to an increase in repossessions, Evictions Homelessness and a decrease in home ownership.

Mortgage Market
The role of mortgage lenders in the Broken housing market cannot be overstated, although often ignored completely. In recent years, banks have tightened their lending criteria, making it harder for people to get on the property ladder. This has had a particularly significant impact on first-time buyers, who often struggle to save up for a deposit. The challenges facing first-time buyers are further compounded by rising house prices and stagnant wages.

Cash Buyers
The rise of cash buyers in the housing market has also had an impact on affordability and availability of homes. Cash buyers are often investors or foreign buyers who are willing to pay above the asking price for a property. This has led to a situation where many properties are out of reach for ordinary buyers, driving up prices and making it harder for people to get onto the property ladder.

Bank of Mum and Dad
The growing trend of parents helping their children onto the property ladder has also had an impact on intergenerational inequality. While it is great that parents are willing to help their children, this has created a situation where those without wealthy parents are at a significant disadvantage. This has led to a situation where home ownership is increasingly becoming a privilege reserved for the wealthy.

The Housing Ladder
The challenges facing those trying to move up the property ladder are also significant. As house prices continue to rise, many people who would like to move to a larger property or a more desirable area find themselves unable to do so. This has had an impact on social mobility and inequality, with many people stuck in homes that no longer meet their needs.

Generation Rent and Student Debt
The rise of the renting culture among younger generations is another factor contributing to the housing crisis. Many young people are unable to save up for a deposit due to rising living costs and student debt. This has led to a situation where an entire generation is being locked out of the housing market, with little hope of ever being able to afford a home of their own.

Housing Stock
The UK's housing stock is another issue that needs to be addressed. There is a shortage of affordable homes, particularly in urban areas, where demand is highest. This has led to a situation where many people are forced to live in overcrowded or substandard accommodation. The need for more affordable homes is clear, but the question of how many and by whom remains an as yet unresolved issue.

Conclusion
The UK housing affordability crisis is a complex issue that requires a comprehensive solution. Demographic factors, wages and employment, the mortgage market, cash buyers, the Bank of Mum and Dad, the housing ladder, student debt, and housing stock are all contributing to the current state of this aspect of our communities and civil life, its more than just a Housing Market it is part of the social fabric of our daily lives. Addressing these issues will require a coordinated effort from government, industry, and society as a whole. Only by working together can we hope to find a solution to the UK's housing affordability crisis and ensure that everyone has access to safe, secure affordable housing.

A codicil to that overview of the UK Housing Affordability could be found down A few paths less travelled.

Amberfield Land.
The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) recently published a report titled 'AmberField Land', which outlined a new vision for the property market. One of the key recommendations was the creation of a new land classification called 'amberfield land', which would identify 'ready to go land'. The aim of this new classification is to increase the supply of housing and create new development opportunities. Amberfield land would be an addition to the existing classifications of greenbelt or 'greenfield land' and 'brownfield land'. Greenbelt land establishes a buffer zone between urban and rural land, while brownfield land is defined as previously developed land.

Misallocation of credit
In a groundbreaking paper Maurice Starkey (2018) explored the causes of the 2007 financial crisis by utilising the Quantity Theory of Credit. ( Werner ). This theory suggests that changes in the money supply can have a significant impact on the economy, including the housing market. As such, more finance realist economists are examining how mortgage lending practices of banks and more broadly credit creation by Banks  may have significantly contributed to the succession of crises’ since the 1980’s.

Delivering resources at the points of need.
In response to the Callcutt review of housebuilding delivery, the Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) has stated that it is important for lenders to be fully involved in policy discussions that aim to influence the house building market. The CML represents the residential mortgage lending industry and its members hold over 98% of the assets of the UK mortgage market. The CML has highlighted two areas where government policies have had unintended consequences: modern methods of construction (MMC) and planning. The CML has engaged with the Building Research Establishment to develop a certification standard for MMC properties that will recognise and meet the needs of both lenders and buildings insurers. In terms of planning, the CML has stressed the need for better consultation with stakeholders, including lenders, to avoid situations where there is an oversupply of new-build flats and difficulties for lenders in dealing with restrictive covenants imposed by local planning authorities.

Building our Way Out of the UK Housing Crisis: Key Reports and Strategies
The UK is currently facing a “house building crisis”, with a shortage of affordable homes and high demand from a growing population. To address this issue, the construction industry has been under scrutiny for its inefficiencies and slow build out rates on large sites. Our next task is to explore key reports and strategies that have been proposed to tackle these challenges.

A. Building to the Skies by Alfred Bossom (1934)
In 1934, Alfred Bossom published Building to the Skies, a report that criticized the inefficiencies in the construction industry and its impact on the wider economy. This report was followed by similar criticisms in subsequent reports, including the Latham Report (1994), Egan Report (1998), Government Construction Strategy (2011), and Construction 2025 (2013). These reports highlighted the need for greater collaboration, innovation, and efficiency in the construction industry.

B. Barlow Report (1940)
The Barlow Report was published in 1940 and investigated the imbalance in the distribution of industry and populations. It proposed the decentralization of industry and the creation of a board for industrial location, which set the foundations for the new towns program. This report recognized the need for strategic planning and infrastructure investment to support sustainable development.

C. Other Reports
Other notable reports include The Barker Review of Housing Supply (2004), DFMA Lessons Learnt 60 K house competition DTI (2006), Callcutt Review of Housebuilding Delivery by John Callcutt (2007), Laying the Foundations: A Housing Strategy for England (2011), Lyons Housing Review (2014), Fixing the Foundations: Creating a More Prosperous Nation (2015), and Housing White Paper: Fixing our Broken Housing Market (2017). These reports proposed various strategies to increase housing supply, improve affordability, and accelerate the delivery of new homes.

A. Findings on Build Out Period and Percentage of Site Built Out Annually
Build out rates refer to the rate at which homes are built and occupied on a large development site. According to recent research by Savills, the average build out rate for large sites in England is around 75 units per year, which equates to a build out period of 15 years for a site with 1,000 units. This slow pace of development has been a major factor contributing to the housing crisis.

B. Fundamental Drivers of Slow Build Out Rates
There are several fundamental drivers of slow build out rates on large sites, including land acquisition, planning permission, infrastructure provision, construction skills shortage, and market conditions. The process of acquiring land and obtaining planning permission can be lengthy and complex, which can delay the start of construction. Infrastructure provision is also critical to support new development, but it can be costly and time-consuming to deliver. Additionally, there is a shortage of skilled workers in the construction industry, which can further slow down the pace of development.

C. Recommendations for Accelerating Build Out Rates
To accelerate build out rates on large sites, there are several recommendations that have been proposed by industry experts and policymakers. These include:

1. Streamlining the planning process: This could involve simplifying planning regulations and reducing bureaucracy to speed up the delivery of planning permission.

2. Investing in infrastructure: This could include funding for new roads, schools, hospitals, and other essential services to support new development.

3. Encouraging innovation: This could involve promoting modern methods of construction, such as off-site manufacturing, to increase efficiency and reduce costs.

4. Addressing skills shortages: This could involve investing in training and apprenticeships to attract new talent into the construction industry.

5. Creating incentives for developers: This could include tax breaks or other financial incentives to encourage developers to build more homes more quickly.

Addressing the UK “House building Crisis” requires a multifaceted approach that involves collaboration between policymakers, developers, Contractors and industry experts. By implementing strategies to increase efficiency, accelerate build out rates, and improve affordability, we can build our way out of this crisis and provide much-needed homes for our growing population.

The Letwin review a “Did he say that out loud moment?”
Most conventional approaches to the Housing supply side delays and pitfalls stop there. In 2018 in his draft analysis on build out rates, Sir Oliver Letwin went further and there was a “Did he say that out loud moment?” this “Absorption Rate” revelation has provided The most groundbreaking and

insightful government report on the Business model of Large housebuilders and the effect of this business model on wider housing delivery in the context of Financialisation, the full report can be found in  The - Independent Review of Build Out Rates Draft Analysis by Sir Oliver Letwin MP (2018)

“The fundamental driver of build out rates once detailed planning permission is granted for large sites appears to be the ‘absorption rate’ – the rate at which newly constructed homes can be sold into (or are believed by the house builder to be able to be sold successfully into) the local market without materially disturbing the market price.” Sir Oliver Letwin MP (2018)

Mortgages and Finance
The mortgage market has undergone significant changes over the long period from “Big Bang to now”. These changes have impacted the liquidity and efficiency of the housing market. These effects of Financialisation ( Banks and Markets) over Mutualisation ( Building societies and credit unions), has emphasised the speculative finance aspects of Property as an financial asset class over Housing as Social Capital.

Another challenge is the tightening of credit standards. In the wake of financial crises, lenders become more cautious in their lending practices, which has made it more difficult for younger borrowers to qualify for a mortgage. This has also lead to a decrease in the number of loans being originated, which has had a negative impact on the entry level of the housing market.

Prioritising Margins over Volumes
To address these challenges, regulators and policymakers have implemented a number of measures. One such measure is the coordination of housing policy and mortgage regulation. Help to buy, which is called jokingly ,”Help to sell” by some developers is just one example as how “Assisting” the market has exacerbated the Price spiral inherent to the Housebuilder absorption rate approach to price maintenance over producing homes where they are needed,in sufficient volumes.

The evolution of government housing market interventions have aimed to support the housing “market” by providing access to credit, promoting “affordability”, and reducing risk. However, policymakers have largely failed to balance these interventions with the need for a balanced housing market across lower price brackets. A balanced Housing stock from the perspective of Social Capital, has remained elusive.

Regulators and policymakers must consider the wider impacts of their decisions. For example, changes to mortgage regulation have consequences and serve the objectives on and of other parts of the financial system. Policymakers must be aware of these potential conflicting objectives and stop favouring the Finance Capital priorities over the social capital requirements of housing as part of the social capital commons.

Finally, regulators and policymakers must be sensitive to intergenerational polarisation. The housing market has a significant impact on wealth distribution across generations, and policies must be designed with this in mind. Younger generations must have access to affordable housing, while

older generations must be able to access the equity in their homes and have the opportunities to down size and adapt to independent later years living.

“The Housing Market Mortgage Crisis”, reveals a mortgage market and construction and land finance market that is not fit for purpose or indeed the desirable vehicle through which to tackle the as yet unresolved significant challenges in our provision of Housing as social capital as opposed to Financial Capital. Regulators and policymakers should take steps to address this “Finance Market Blind Spot”, By coordinating housing policy and mortgage regulation and credit creation, allowing an evolving range of possible government interventions, considering wider impacts, and being sensitive to intergenerational polarisation, policymakers can create a sustainable and efficient housing market that benefits all stakeholders.

The key starting point is to recognise the existence of essentially two separate “Markets” Ian Mulheirn put it this way in an appearance on the Jolly Swagman Pod cast.

“The 5th thing is the misunderstanding that there are two markets here. You have two markets, Two prices The Market for housing services is the Rental Market The Market for housing assets is the House Price Just Like Cameron’s example of the I Phone price versus the Apple Share Price. These are different markets with different prices and people just don’t get that!” Ian Mulheirn.

More than Supply Alone.
Increasing housing supply alone is not enough to raise home ownership rates and resolve Ownership and rental affordability. Empirical evidence shows that higher supply only has a modest impact on house prices, and mortgage finance availability is a key factor in determining who can buy a home. The UK mortgage market is expected to weaken due to affordability pressures and rising interest rates, with cash buyers being the most buoyant group of movers since the 2008 GFC However, it is difficult to identify the characteristics of cash buyers as they cover a broad range of individuals, from overseas buyers to older down-sizers and investors. Last-time buyers, aged 55 or older, now account for one in three moves within the owner-occupied sector, and the Housebuilding industry needs to provide more resources to this market growing in both Importance and size in relation to the dynamic of freeing larger family homes and enabling a cycling of ownership through the various tenures and accommodation needs, up and down the demographic profile.

The trend of older homeowners owning their homes outright has led to an increase in cash transactions in recent years. However, only a small percentage of older homeowners are last-time buyers, with many facing obstacles in finding suitable properties to buy. The lack of manageable,

energy-efficient, and low-maintenance homes has hindered the growth of the last-time buyer market, which is the focus of our Silverm@ix Brand.

There is not a need for programmes similar to the generally failed Help to Buy initiatives for first-time buyers, many developers refer to the scheme as (Help to sell) although Stamp duty initiatives could relieve congestion at the top of the Housing ladder chain down to Mid Market price ranges. Of course stamp duty gimmicks have caused several damaging peaks in demand causing avoidable price inflation pressures which would not otherwise have materialised.

In terms of mortgage lending, the outstanding value of all residential mortgage loans in Q3 2022 was 4.1% higher than the previous year, with the value of new mortgage commitments being the highest recorded since 2007 Q3, similarly this seems to be the top of the Market for New Builds and the Interest rates shock therapy applied to the Market since December 2021 is still working its way through to the Market which is suspended at “Peak Unaffordability” for this cycle. The mortgage industry in the UK has traditionally been dominated by building societies, but their share of the market has declined since the 1970s, with banks and other institutions holding a much larger share correlated also to the decoupling of rental levels and Wage Price ratios from Valuation as traditionally applied in the Valuation of Property assets.

House Prices and Rental Levels

The UK housing market price inflation has been a topic of concern for many years, with house prices seeming to continually rise out of reach for more people. There are a number of factors that contribute to this, including general levels of wage growth, interest rates, credit conditions, supply elasticity, expectations and risk premia, maintenance costs and taxes.

One of the key issues facing the housing market is the lack of a comprehensive model that takes into account all of these factors. Without such a model, it is difficult to fully understand the impact that each factor has on the two market orbits of The Housing Market and the Social Capital stock of homes, this failure is preventing the development of effective solutions.

It is clear that the housing market has a significant impact on both economic growth and well-being, as well as financial stability. It is therefore essential that we find ways to address the factors affecting house prices and the Housing stock of social capital by developing a more holistic approach to housing affordability.

Local authorities, housing associations, and social housing stock also play a crucial role in addressing housing affordability issues. It is important to maintain and expand social housing stock and to work collaboratively with the private sector to find affordable housing solutions.

Unfortunately, collaboration with the private sector has failed in the past and is likely to continue to do so under the s.106 and CIL regime due to absorption rate commercial demands on the large housebuilders and their balance sheets. This highlights the need for a pragmatic admission that "the market" does not have solutions for the provision of affordable local authority housing.

In conclusion, it is clear that there are a number of complex factors affecting UK house prices, and that a more comprehensive and collaborative approach is needed to address these issues. It is essential that we work together to find long-term solutions that will benefit both individuals and the wider economy.

Sound Bites, Canards and Narratives of Housing Ladder Mythology.

The UK housing market has undergone significant changes in recent decades, with the transfer of council housing to not-for-profit housing associations being a major development. The Housing Acts of 1985 and 1988 facilitated this transfer, allowing housing associations to access private finance and become the providers of most new public-sector housing. However, some council areas have opposed this policy, preventing transfers to housing associations.

Meanwhile, a new study has found that student loan debt plays a significant role in structuring young people's housing in England. Graduates who did not borrow for higher education are more likely to own their home and less likely to rent or live with their parents than those who borrowed for their studies or never attended higher education. This suggests that higher education funding policies and student loan debt have an impact on young people's housing tenure.

Other factors affecting the UK housing market include the planning system, land reform, land ownership, and consented plots. The Independent Review of Build Out Rates covered these aspects of Housebuilding almost uniquely. Overall, the UK housing market is complex and constantly evolving, with various policy failures and Fudge factors misshaping its positive development.

As the UK population ages, there is a growing need for more housing options specifically designed for older people. The current retirement housing market mainly caters to wealthy homeowners, leaving many older individuals without suitable options, this is a common feature shared with the experiences of younger people starting out at the entry level of the “Housing Ladder”. To address this issue, a policy program focused on increasing competition and choice in the retirement housing market has been proposed. This program includes recommendations for the government, local authorities, and developers to prioritize the development of affordable and accessible housing options for older people.

The goal is to provide greater choice in cost, design, and tenure for individuals of all financial means. By addressing the housing needs of older generations, we can help ensure that everyone has access to safe and comfortable living arrangements as they age, and ensure an optimal turnover of suitable homes from the Existing Stock and directing new homes building at critical pressure points.

In the recent House of Lords debate on the “Housing Crisis” the impact of immigration on the housing market in England was raised by Lord Lilley who argued that not only older familiar domestic factors but also a continuing flow of high net immigration could not be honestly pursued without ensuring proper resource provision including housebuilding to support a much larger population. He ( Lord Lilley) suggests that the net inflow of 200,000 or 300,000 immigrants per

year requires the construction of extra houses to meet the demand. This poses a challenge as there will be objections to housebuilding. The debate on whether to allow mass immigration into the country and build extra properties every year needs to be addressed honestly.

The treasury and Bank of England need to consider this factor when formulating policies related to the housing market. A coherent strategy that encompasses social, economic, and environmental aspects of housing and construction is necessary to address the multiple problems affecting all tenures in the housing market in England.

Savills’, “the posh peoples Estate Agent”, publishes every year an overview of the UK's housing wealth, the total net worth of the country and the value of dwellings as the most valuable non-financial asset seem to climb to ever dizzier heights standing at £8.68 Trillion in 2022. In considering this Value placed upon the Housing stock it is important to highlight the impact of fiscal policies on housing wealth, such as stamp duty and mortgage interest relief. Consideration is needed on proposals for reforming stamp duty, including relief for last-time buyers and those looking to move into specialist or smaller/cheaper properties. We question the effectiveness of political posturing around  proposals supposed to pacify various factions of the Home-making, Housebuilding and Property Market and real estate Investment Landscape and warn of unintended consequences flowing from pleasing sound-bites crafted around treasured canards of the the British “ Housing Ladder Myths”.

Home@ix BUMPER STICKER, summer 2022.

“occasionally something outside the Box(SILO) comes along and seems obvious but no one saw it previously. We think Home@ix is like that!”

The stylem@ix brand has been put on ice with a watching brief, as the latest Financial crisis has again caused a credit crunch and associated havoc at all stages of the Housing Value Chain both Financial and Social, on both the Supply and Demand sides of the equation. Our preference in the meantime has been to develop our offering through a Dashboard for Down-sizers and Last Time Buyers via the Silverm@ix brand.

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