User talk:Roisterer/2009 Archive

Happy New Year!
And hoping for more offbeat articles to read. From another old fossil who likes ancient cricket....  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 04:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Taman Shud
Hey Roisterer, check out Adelaide's Sunday Mail, 11th Jan 12009, pp. 42-43 and p. 76. There is a huge article about the case with more details in there. Can you add it to the wiki article? You are better than me at it! I bow before you master. Bletchley (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Roisterer, thank you for your latest edits. You are the master. Isn't it terrible how the SA police supposedly lost files on the case? I suspect this case remains a mystery simply because if their incompetence. I reckon that nurse was lying and knows something...why the police didn't nail her harder, I just don't know. Also I think the name of the nurse could be in the letters of the code, so knowing her name would be important.Bletchley (talk) 21:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Hey Roisterer, you should watch SA edition of Stateline this Friday (27 March 2009) if you can. -Complexitydaemon (talk) 07:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC) [] --Complexitydaemon (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Transcript of latest segment. In response to your question on the image, I obtained it from Derek Abbott, who I believe scanned it in himself from a newspaper article. Will confirm this and let you know. Complexitydaemon (talk) 04:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Lance Collins
Hey mate, great work with the Collins article! If you're interested there's a much less grainy image of the bloke which you can upload from his Blueseum profile. Cheers. Jevansen (talk) 09:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Blurriness
My reputation has preceded me, it seems :p I'm afraid I'm pretty limited with what I can do for that photo. I will do my best to sharpen it up a bit in Photoshop, but I can only go as far as the original quality will let me. This looks like a photocopied newspaper clipping. Red Gown (talk) 00:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Invincibles
Thanks for that vote...I guess we could do with a hand from everywhere?  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 08:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Harvey family
Do you know if Robert Harvey and Brent Harvey the footballers are cousins? It was added to RH's page, but deleted recently by an IP without speculation. I am wondering if there are more things to be added to Harvey family.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 05:43, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Nash
I don't really know that much about him, apart from the deliberate throw, bad attitude, Bodyline and the Gubby Allen argument but I'll look in Haigh and Frith's book on the ACB archives...Had no clue he whacked Woodfull in the heart, he must have had no brain or had Akhtar/Asif-style judgment! I'll just continue fixing the layout and I guess it will be obvious enough for you to follow the style guideline I guess - better than reading it, I learned it on the run as well.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 05:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Argus, Monday 19 February 1944, p.12: Laurie Nash, former international, who is now out of the Army, played for the old South Melbourne players against the present team yesterday. He made 38 and also bowled well. The moderns won. scoring 280 (Cornelius 102. Howard 65) to 216 (Nash 38, Lawson 32, R. Hassett 28, Barnes 27, Dr Park 22).

Argus, Monday 9 April 1945, p.12: NASH SHOWS HOW. There was joy in South quarters at the fine display of Laurie Nash who, at centre half-forward, was the top player. He reached his peak in the second quarter when he kicked six goals from about six kicks, one being from a left-foot angle shot after a blind turn. In the second half he fed Evans, who kicked four. It is evident that the Matthews-Castles Nash route to goal will bring results In that plan Whitfield also took a part. Glass, Clegg, and Kerr were among the best of the new men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.78.159 (talk) 00:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Revision of Laurie Nash Article

 * Transferred to here from User talk:Lindsay658
 * Hey Lindsay, I have to say I have missed your excellent contributions to Australian Rules related articles recently. I see you're trying to finish a PhD, which is probably a good enough reason to go quiet on the editing front but I look forward to your return. I'm slowly and rather painfully trying to work Laurie Nash to Featured Article status so if you have a spare minute I would appreciate your thoughts on what i need to add to it. --Roisterer (talk) 02:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, Roisterer! Yes I am really unable to devote any time; I have had a brief look at the article as it stands and here are some first impression comments:

(1) Suggest you go to and include both a citation the reference itself, and the information it contains

(2) If you are going to have "The son of a leading Australian rules footballer of the early twentieth century who also, etc. " in the introduction, I think it is important that you identify his father by name, insert a wiki-link to his article, and also identify (also with a link) that he played for Collingwood.

(3) Also, on the basis that this is, essentially, a sports-oriented article, I think his grandfather and great uncle also ought to be mentioned in the introduction.

(4) I feel that the piece "While Nash had great success in football, he faced opposition from the cricket establishment for his working class, Catholic background and take no prisoners approach and played only two Tests, leading Keith Miller to write that the non-selection of Laurie Nash as a regular Test player was "the greatest waste of talent in Australian cricket history"." is misleading and distracting in the introduction.
 * However, the issue of sectarian strife affecting Victorian sport is far from unimportant and/or insignificant -- especially in a Melbourne containing men such as Daniel Mannix and John Wren, and a football competition (the VFL) that had almost been destroyed by the aftermath of four clubs continuing to play during World War I due to their various social, religious, and political affiliations — and I feel that it should be in a stand-alone section somewhere around the "Bodyline" section.

(5) There is also a problem with "true facts" and "retrospectively reconstructed facts": when I was young there was a perennial question “Who is the only Australian to play Test Cricket direct from District Cricket, and who never played in the Sheffield Shield before his selection?" (answer Laurie Nash)

As with the AFL continuously reworking history (e.g., claiming that John Coleman won a Coleman Medal), the Australian Cricket Board is constantly reworking the past of Australian Cricket to pander to the demands of the 21st century – and, thus, I feel, is always dramatically overstating the significance of playing cricket for Tasmania circa 1930, when it hardly had even the status of an interstate bank’s team (see ), despite the efforts of the ACB in 2009 to promote such a history.

The reason that I mention this is that, to me, the account of Nash's cricketing (first class and otherwise) is very confusing (to one fully aware of the "true facts") and, therefore, I suggest that you have a good look at how you might write the stuff more clearly, so that whatever it says is clear and unequivocal.

(6) The entire article seems far too "lumpy" in its present form. I my opinion it will be fixed by better choices of sections and, at least initially, by you setting out a clear map of the sections that you want – and these sections must be 100% consistent, and entirely logical (although each section may well operate by a different logic) according to whether they are (a) offering a sequential account of a series of chronologically connected events, or (b) offering a set of conceptually connected matters.
 * As an example of what I’m calling "a set of conceptually connected matters", and just how extracting the "lumpy" bits from the article and combining them in a special "theme" place might assist you is like this. ..
 * Suppose you were to create a section called something like "Reactions to Nash"; with Sub-sections: say, "Sectarian Issues", "Issues of Social Class", "Issues of Technique" (this could, in addition to stuff of throwing, could also include something about him being such a great Aussie Rules player, whilst being so extraordinarily short for either a centre half-back or centre half-forward, and, also the stuff on Woodfull being hit), "Issues of arrogance" and, finally "Nash the champion" (including here the stuff by Dyer and Miller).

(7) By the way, In relation to Bob Chitty, I met Jack Dyer on quite a number of occasions, long before his memory began to fade and, as we were discussing Chitty, and remarking on how he sometimes went and worked for a couple of months pre-season in a rock quarry to build up his strength and tenacity, Jack said that Chitty was the toughest and strongest bloke he had ever played against. I then expected Jack to recount some incident or incidents of unparalleled reciprocal thuggery, he simply said that he had never, in his entire career met anyone as strong as Chitty and, furthermore, that Chitty had an entirely unique quality that Dyer had never found in any other player in his entire 24+ years as a player at all levels. He said that, when going for a boundary throw-in with Chitty, with both Dyer and Chitty well off the ground, Chitty could push him sideways!!!! – and, moreover, Jack said that this had happened on quite a number of occasions.

Anyway, can’t spend any more time with you. Perhaps if you let me know when you have attacked the article thoroughly, I can have another brief look. Best to you.Lindsay658 (talk) 07:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I have put some more thought into your request and, first of all, I want to reassure you that the problems you are facing are 100% due to the complexity of your subject, and nothing to do with your creativity or talent for structured thinking. I thought that the following articles on similarly complex individuals might give you some sort of creative input into the process of solving your “problem of structure issue” (in no particular order): "Weary" Dunlop; Babe Didrikson; Mike Cleary; Jesse Ventura; Denis Compton; Snowy Baker; Rex Mossop; Dick Thornett; Ric Charlesworth ; Hubert Opperman ; Sam Loxton; and John Winneke. Best to you! Lindsay658 (talk) 02:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Just struck me that, in the way you are presenting things, his two strongest advocates were Miller and Richardson. Do you think it would be reasonable to include the fact that each of them were strong, tenacious, and highly talented Aussie Rules footballers themselves? And, moreover, did either of them play against him as a footballer (because that may have given them a wider view of Nash and his talents and, especially, his tenacity as a competitor as well as his ablity to absorb physical punishment) ?Lindsay658 (talk) 23:20, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

In the section on “Style” you have written “Nash was a superbly fit athlete who never smoked, drank rarely and dedicated himself to a punishing exercise regime, something rare in 1930s sports circles.” Only two paragraphs earlier you have written “He also began to drink and eat more and stopped his exercise routine, leading him to become bloated, "like an old, red balloon that had been slightly let down".” As it is written, these seem to clash with each other. Perhaps the first could be changed to written “At his peak, Nash was a superbly fit athlete who never smoked, drank rarely and dedicated himself to a punishing exercise regime, something rare in 1930s sports circles”. There is another problem with way that you have written “He also began to drink and eat more and…”. It is equivocal, Do you mean that “he began to drink”, or that “he began to drink more (than he had in the past)” – perhaps a slight re-write would clarify your meaning. Also, you don’t mention (a) when and where he first worked as a publican, (b) who supported his publican’s licence application, (c) whether it was a brewery pub, or a privately owned pub, (d) whether he financed it himself. Also, in terms of chronological sequence, “Nash strongly opposed the relocation of South Melbourne Football Club to Sydney (renamed the Sydney Swans) and refused to attend Swans matches for many years, relenting only shortly before his death to attend a Sydney-Footscray match” is in the wrong location – perhaps the issue might be solved by moving the paragraph up the page an inserting it as the last paragraph in the “Post-VFL footballing career” as it would, in that position, speak to his loyalty to South Melbourne (and, no doubt, his strong displeasure at the destruction of the Melbourne centred competition under the direction of dentist Alan Aylett).Lindsay658 (talk) 23:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You are really developing a wonderful article! Not sure that my point about the pubs was clear; many players, such as the magnificent Ray Poulter, shin-kicker Lou Richards, and the king of the overhead hand-claps Percy Jones were given lots of "assistance" firstly in getting their license (often they had to work in someone else's pub first), and later in negotiating the lease of the pub.
 * I was wondering whether you were aware that the Australian National Library in Canberra hold an item which they have catalogued as a "book" (Bib id 458594), describing it as "Biographical cuttings on Laurie Nash, sportsman"? Lindsay658 (talk) 02:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the National Library's composite list, copies of the 68 page The Swan Lake spectacular : how South Melbourne won the 1933 VFL premiership by Marc Fiddian (Galaxy Print and Design, Hastings, 2004) at five locations: 	National Library of Australia; Port Phillip Library Service -- St Kilda Library; State Library of NSW; State Library of Victoria; and Victoria University Libraries. Also, please go to: . Good luck!Lindsay658 (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Made a few changes overnight which, in my view, make for a simpler, more logical reading of the information you have included. I'm not sure whether your resources mention (a) the year in which Nash had his hip broken, and (b) the year he started work as a clerk. If you can find out these dates, I think it would greatly add to your article. Best to you.Lindsay658 (talk) 21:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Kenneth Gandar-Dower
--Dravecky (talk) 11:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Youngest SA MP
I'm not sure sorry! Timeshift (talk) 23:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Haigh and Green
So you've met both luminaries then eh? Haigh seems to have quite a cynical attitude of Wikipedia. "Ah you've made it" he said to Bernard Whimpress when I said that their books had been cited on WP.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 23:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Some more links for you
The article is really taking shape. Very busy now, and probably can't look at your excellent work for another couple of weeks. Thought that these links might be of some help:, , , , , , , , , , , , ,. Hope they help you. Lindsay658 (talk) 02:00, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

My blog
I think I should cite myself LOL at least it saves me having to chase down a new news report for each match....  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 08:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

NTFA
No worries. It got a bit complicated as there's already a league of the same name playing footy so hopefully the disambiguation was done ok..... it's the best I could come up with. By the way, I stole your picture of Laurie Nash in his City Launceston guernsey so thanks for uploading it. Enjoy the rest of your holiday! Jevansen (talk) 01:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Signpost
I'm not sure what to make of your Signpost suggestion without hearing more, but it does sound interesting. What I suggest is that you write up a first-person account (which I'm not necessarily opposed to running in the Signpost, with a bit of editor's framing at the outset), and we can go from there.--ragesoss (talk) 18:26, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Hunkerin'
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Hunkerin', suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process&#32; because of the following concern:
 * One citation does not provide proof of notability. Still needs more work and more references.

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. magnius (talk) 08:38, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Mystery death at Somerton Pk
Pleasantly surprised to see that an article existed. Is this incident well known. I must say I had never heard of it until I read a feature about in the Advertiser/Sunday Mail (I read the Madvertsier approximately 2-3 times a year, it's a terrible paper)  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) paid editing=POV 02:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)