User talk:Romomusicfan/sandbox/Women in Punk Rock in the United Kingdom in the 21st Century

Frau (band)
Hi Romo, I am wondering if Frau belongs in this list of artists who made significant contributions. I created the Frau article, as I saw it in a list of redlinks on the Women in Red or a similar women-topic talk page. The article has been tagged for notability for a while, but I haven't been able to find anything more about this band than what is in the stub article. My thinking is that they should be in an "other artists" section. What do you think? Netherzone (talk) 17:43, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Well they seem to pass WP:BAND for multiple references in reliable sources (Billboard, Impose (magazine), Maximumrocknroll) which means they pass WP:GNG too in effect. On the other hand, I can't say I've heard of them much in the same circle as other acts on the list and I can't seem to find any Facebook page for them. We'll see what happens with their article.Romomusicfan (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, they do meet GNG and BAND due to the sourcing (which was why I felt fine about creating the stub in the first place) but they do not seem to have gone anywhere/done much since their arrival. Which is why I'm thinking that they shouldn't be part of the significant acts, but rather other acts. I'm going to go ahead and make that change on the WiPR article (feel free to undo my edit if you object. Netherzone (talk) 17:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Have removed the notablity tag from Frau's page for the above reasons.Romomusicfan (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I was hoping someone other than me would remove it. Netherzone (talk) 18:14, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The trouble is we haven't got a proper name for this scene, much less an official list of Who's In And Who's Out (this is one of the few things to miss about the old school music press.) I did recently write to Steve Iles, he was very flattered but unable to help, he's done interviews but only about individual bands (typically to promote an upcoming gig), not the scene as a whole.  Indeed, the only source to confirm that "Women in Punk Rock in the United Kingdom in the 21st Century" constitutes a coherent Thing is the quote from Nina Courson from Vive Le Rock.  That's the reason at the moment this is just a section rather than an article.  Clearly some of the sources to support this as a standalone article have as yet to be written.Romomusicfan (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I share the same thoughts, that there isn't a proper name for the scene. I wish someone would write a book, or a chapter in a book. It surprises me that this has not been done yet. A few weeks ago I tried searching through some of the more academic articles on JSTOR, and found some hopeful articles. (posted on the WiPR talk, but unfortunately they are behind a paywall, so not everyone has access.) But because my full-time job was starting up again, I did not have the time to go through each of them. I do have access to JSTOR, so when I find the time later this spring, will see what is there and if anyone has coined a name for the 2010s UK scene. Netherzone (talk) 18:14, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * This is funny I played in this band, we split up in 2016 (our last gig was Pearlfest) we had a website you can find on the wayback machine - fraupunk.co.uk. I don't think there is a cohesive scene (right now anyway) but there's great writing in Maximum RockNRoll, Another Subculture zine and I love this website a lot: https://girlandqueerbands.neocities.org/ Kirsty Lohman was set to write a chapter/book (and has written some recent academic articles) but generally theres not much in terms of 'notability' - but the nature of punk is that most relevant writing that actually speaks true of our communities tends to be underground, in zines etc Rhagfyr (talk) 23:27, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Helloi ! Good to hear from you. Can you provide links to some of that great writing, please? I'd love to improve the article but I had difficulty finding sources. Thanks in advance, Netherzone (talk) 23:46, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * there definitely has been, if not a scene, then a definite wave of young, mostly female led bands affiliated to the Punk Rock/Rebellion Festival/ex 12 Bar scene and championed by Steve Iles (who, I emphasise, is not myself!) as described in my draft article, but nobody is writing about the scene as a whole, not even those parts of the music press who give individual bands coverage such as Louder Than War and Vive Le Rock. Hence no sources about the overall phenomenon, hence for example no snappy name for the phenomenon, hence the long and unwieldy working title for this draft article.  (Hence also the problem of getting an third source besides VLR and LTW for two important bands Maid Of Ace and Dragster, who still don't have their own Wikipedia articles!)  I wrote to Steve about this recetly and he said he has been interviewed quite a bit about individual bands whose gigs he has promoted but never about the scene as a whole.Romomusicfan (talk) 11:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * @Romomusicfan There may be enough sourcing on Maid of Ace to support a WP article. A search revealed significant coverage in addition to VLR & LTW, plus there are four pages of content on the band in the book in Revenge of the She Punks: A Feminist Music History from Poly Styrene to Pussy Riot. They also seem to be in this book: The Scene that Would Not Die:Twenty Years of Post-millennial Punk in the UK, however Google Books won't let me see inside. Netherzone (talk) 15:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * @Netherzone Have now created Maid of Ace and linked it in to this draft and your article.Romomusicfan (talk) 09:51, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice work on that @Romomusicfan~! Netherzone (talk) 13:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Category
The object here is to do a category covering the Steve Iles bands scene. If anyone can think of improvements to the category title, by all means implement them.Romomusicfan (talk) 22:00, 22 April 2023 (UTC)


 * What is the Steve Iles bands scene? What is the relevance of centering a man when documenting women's punk music? I've never heard of him so probably not notable. I would recommend we centre own-voices and female community members who write cite-able articles and other works about the contemporary female/non binary/queer UK punk scene(s) Rhagfyr (talk) 18:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a term for a generation of young female/female led bands affiliated to the punk rock/Rebellion Festival scene. It's called either that - or "Stepunker" rock - after Steve Iles who is a promoter and fixer on the UK punk scene as well as the owner of the now defunct Stepunker Youtube channel which gave all these bands coverage.  It's not a scene or a genre, it's a demographic trend among musicians.  The trouble is that the conventional music press in the UK has collapsed, so there is no longer a proper source to define such categories and set parameters. Vive Le Rock (magazine) and Louder Than War (website) are about as good as it gets.
 * I tried creating an article and my work in progress can be seen at User:Romomusicfan/sandbox/Women in Punk Rock in the United Kingdom in the 21st Century but the trouble is that while most of the major first generation bands have Wikinotablity (exceptions Maid Of Ace and Dragster) there aren't enough sources about the overall phenomenon. Steve Iles himself, for instance, has done plenty of press interviews to hype gigs but never about his work overall. Romomusicfan (talk) 11:28, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The nearest thing to an article is the section in this -Women_in_punk_rock - the plan was to spin it off into its own article.Romomusicfan (talk) 11:34, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok great, I don't think you can say Iles (a man) is the centre of the current female punk scene in the UK if I nor none of my friends who are female punks have ever heard of him, but perhaps as I have never been to Rebellion it's another subgenre of punk in another part of the country to me I don't know about. So that said I can probably contribute some extra suggestions and sources, have put some together here if useful: User:Rhagfyr/sandbox/Women in Punk Rock in the United Kingdom in the 21st Century I would really like to make a WP page for Es so if you spot anything on them let me know! Rhagfyr (talk) 21:15, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Iles is basically a John Peel/Bob Gruen figure - a publicist and chronicler (as well as a promoter and fixer). It would be a bit like calling mid '80s indie rock "John Peel Bands".
 * As well as the bands listed on both our sandboxes, there are quite a few borderline-notable bands like Maid of Ace, Dragster, Headstone Horrors, Face Up, Weekend Recovery, PolyPikPockets, Lady Rage, Pussyliquor, Hex Poseur, iDestroy, Bite Me, Kiss My Acid/Nxb0dies, HAWXX, Emily Flea etc ...
 * Like I said, the underlaying problem is how to write about a phenomenon in UK guitar music after the collapse of the traditional music press, with no source to define it and set parameters. I imagine they would have come up with a snapper name than Stepunker Rock (or Steve Iles bands) but I have to make do with whatever description I can muster to communicate to other editors with a similar area of interest.
 * P.S. am tagging in this as this user has been working on similar projects and will be helpful. Romomusicfan (talk) 17:04, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * How notable are zines/other DIY ‘journalism’ writing? There are quite a lot of zines getting published, more than I’ve ever seen (there are copies of MRR, Gadgie & more on Internet Archive). I think the trad music press never gets punk writing right anyway (as someone who’s band is on WP made up of music press citations I really dislike and find quite sexist, that’s an interesting drawback of prominence of big sources on WP). A WP training I did implored how more DIY and grassroots citations could be used if carefully/with vigour, to include marginalised stories on WP to disrupt bias. I know blogs aren’t allowed to be used - are self published websites/music blogs at all? There is also lots of academic writing in the Punk Scholars Network scene (again obviously has its ivory tower vibe drawbacks, but certainly is peer reviewed etc so good sources to use). Rhagfyr (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * For better or for worse - and I'm no fan of them either especially not the way in the past they wielded their power to make and break pop careers - the traditional UK music press is generally considered to be the epitome of a good RS when it comes to band articles on Wikipedia and its successors such as Vive Le Rock, Louder Than War and The Quietus tend to be the first option when writing about contemporary (post-Noughties) bands.
 * Generally when I'm working to establish notability for a band etc I try for three (enough for "multiple") sources - generally in the case of this younger predominatly female genration of bands affliliated to the UK punk circuit I would go for Vive Le Rock (magazine), Louder Than War (website) and one other source, typically a Wikinotable local newspaper such as the Ipswich Star, Basingstoke Gazette or Wales on Sunday.
 * In the cases of Dragster (band) and Maid of Ace, they have the VLR and LTW references as cited in the Women in Punk Rock article but not a third one for safekeeping which is why I have so far held back on creating articles for those two bands even though they were both very important and prominent in the first wave (mid 2010s and earlier) of the current scene.
 * Finding sources for the C21st wave of female bands as an overall trend is harder. There is a good quote from Nina Courson of Healthy Junkies from an interview in Vive Le Rock issue 61 - "There is also a strong movement of bands with girls and it is very refreshing to see, it gives new life to the scene" and I have used that as a source to add a line - "The 2010s saw a particular profusion of younger female or female-fronted bands affiliated to the punk scene" (note the link to the 2010s section of 's article) to the articles 2010s in music and Music of the United Kingdom (2000s and 2010s) but that's not enough on which to build a whole article - even a Set Index article with loads of references for individual bands.
 * Good call with Nova Twins and The Ethical Debating Society by the way. I shall add both to the Category and at some stage soon add them to my own draft article.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:11, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello! and thanks for the ping; good to "see" you Romo, and to meet you Rhagfyr. I'm not exactly sure what is being asked/discussed here. I've never heard of Steve Iles of the Steve Iles scene, so I may not be the right person to ask. I apologize in advance for so many questions, but these things are unclear to me. Question that come to mind:
 * Is it that the category itself is in danger of deletion?
 * Is it a discussion whether or not to merge the two drafts together User:Rhagfyr/sandbox/Women in Punk Rock in the United Kingdom in the 21st Century with User:Romomusicfan/sandbox/Women in Punk Rock in the United Kingdom in the 21st Century?
 * Is it whether or not Iles should be mentioned in a resulting new article?
 * Is it that there aren't enough independent sources to support a new article other than things Ives has written about bands he promoted/fixed, and are therefore not independent per WP:INDEPENDENT?
 * Is it that one draft is framing a women's music scene around a Wiki-non-notable man and the other is focusing on the bands themselves?
 * Is it the quality or reliability of various sources (for example zine vs. academic vs. newspaper/magazine)?
 * Sorry for so many questions, but I have not been following discussions about these bands, I've been more focused on visual arts. Netherzone (talk) 14:57, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * (1) Not AFAIK
 * (2) That's a possibility
 * (3 & 5) More that there needs to be some general framing material for an article rather than just a list of notable and almost notable bands.
 * (4 & 6) Yes re. not enough sources (apart from one Nina Courson quote in Vive Le Rock magazine) which is why my draft never got much further and why I decided to do a Category in the meanwhile. It doesn't matter if Iles doesn't get a mention although it would be a pity given his role as a catalyst in bringing this generation of female/female led punk bands to prominence.  Ultimately, I used his name  on this discussion as a shorthand for the wave of bands he helped get ahead so that people familiar with the punk scene would know what bands this was meant to cover ideally.Romomusicfan (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The lede section should follow the Manual of Style, see: Manual of Style/Lead section (for an article like Women in punk rock), or Stand-alone lists (for a stand alone list article). The content of the lede should be expanded in the body of the article text, where all claims should be backed up with verifiable, independent reliable sources.
 * If there is only one source stating that Steve Iles was instrumental it does not seem like it should be included. The reason is it would be a singular minority viewpoint WP:Minority viewpoints (therefore trivial) rather than a significant viewpoint.
 * To my understanding of WP guidelines, it would be considered undue weight, see WP:UNDUE, and not really neutral WP:NPOV to include the role of Youtuber/gig promoter/fixer Steve Iles in promoting, publicising and generally encouraging 2010s female bands on the punk scene unless significant coverage of that claim and his importance has been published in multiple independent, verifiable reliable sources.
 * I understand that Romo would like to give credit to Steve Iles' encouragement and support of these bands and women's music (which is a great thing for Iles to do), but since this is an encyclopedic project, we have to go by what reliable sources say.
 * Re: getting the article off the ground and into mainspace, maybe try merging the two drafts and see what the results are? Netherzone (talk) 16:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Disagree re MOS rules for mentioning Steve Iles - you would need multiple sources to do an article on him, his defuct YT channel or anything that bore his name, but a simple mention would need only one reference. For what it's worth, Nina Courson mentions him in the same. VLR interview cited above. However if an article on the scene has to be written with no mention of him then fair enough.
 * To be honest, this discussion is more about my use of his name on this here talk page as shorthand for that generation of female UK punk bands, which seems to have confused Rhagfyr.Romomusicfan (talk) 19:40, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm still confused. Are you proposing that the category name be changed from "Female-led UK punk bands of the 21st Century" to "Steve Isles' bands of the 21st century" or something similar? Netherzone (talk) 20:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No, (unless some music magazine does an article on the scene calling it "Stepunker Rock" or somesuch.)
 * My reason for starting this thread was to informally indicate to other editors familiar with that whole scene (Hands off Gretel, Healthy Junkies, Kut, Tuts, Featherz etc etc) that it was that bunch of bands I primarily had in mind.  Hence my post at the top.  That was all.Romomusicfan (talk) 07:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn’t just confused by the mention of Iles, more now I strongly disagree that he should be included as per @Netherzone’s questions 3&5. It is inappropriate for a man (I nor any women punks I know have heard of) to be inserted as a leader of women’s creativity on WP. Likely not notable, maybe just someone you are a fan of.
 * Please do take my source recommendations on board about paper zines and academia. A shift in focus to that could include more marginalised voices who have been in notable bands.
 * Overall my main interest would be constructive to work on this area of music, various scenes etc. So let’s include all the bands, sources and build any new articles. Rhagfyr (talk) 08:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Romo, you have been very supportive of women in music on WP which I highly respect, but I disagree with you (on the inclusion of Iles) for the same reason why I would object to a woman visual artist's career being framed by her male gallerist or her male partner/manager/husband/boyfriend, or a women writer's career being framed by her male agent or publisher. I agree with on this matter, and object to framing a decade of women's punk music by a male promoter. The essay,  Writing about women states in the section WP:NOTBYRELATION that editors are to Wherever possible, avoid defining a notable woman, particularly in the title or first sentence, in terms of her relationships.
 * Maybe consider writing an article on Iles/Stepunker himself and his influence on music if enough independent sources can be found that are about him (not about him by association). If you access the Internet Archive and/or Wayback Machine or Newspapers.com or Newspaper Archive you may find sources. Netherzone (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I made it quite clear I was not proposing that any article on the current young generation of bands be named in Iles' honour, especially not if any better name can be found. He need not be mentioned at all if you insist, but what would be needed (as WP rules make clear) is some sort of framing narrative to explain why the scene is both notable and a coherent whole and that "There are a lot of these bands!" will not do for this purpose. It's an article about the recent demographic boom in female/female-led bands on the UK punk scene and it needs some background, especially for the lede.Romomusicfan (talk) 03:57, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn’t say there is a new distinct scene at all but a continuation, why for example it works as a category, or the continuation is marked in the long international Women in Punk article. I think working on more band pages for the category would be cool. Rhagfyr (talk) 06:41, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a wave of bands, rather than a scene. A noticeable demographic trend among younger musicians on the UK punk scene. Romomusicfan (talk) 19:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a wave of bands, rather than a scene. A noticeable demographic trend among younger musicians on the UK punk scene. Romomusicfan (talk) 19:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Romomusicfan (talk) 09:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)