User talk:Rosmoran/navigation sandbox test article

Hi Sami

I like the template you have above the desgn, anyway. (I hate using WIKI it is so APD unfriendly too set in tis own stuctures, this is my third attenpt at typing this, is there a more user friendly forum or message board we can use. I Will try doing this piecemeal and may be loose all i want to contribute but that is this crazy WIKI system) ( I am getting confused with all these different wiki user pages you have and where you want to hold the discussions regarding the dyslexia artricle, and its contents. I would suggest that you set up a forum or Group at Google or Yahoo which are more user friendly than WIKI and would provide a focal point for all discussions. Wiki is just one communication maze with its own wierd communicatiuon structures that are not very APD friendly )

We need a genaral defintion of dyslexia free from political and professionally skew input, something like:

Dyslexia is about having problems using the cutlural visual notations of speech. There are many cultural variations in speech language, and is also reflected in the variations in the the Visual Notation of speech can present.

From here we would then require defintions of developmental and aquired dyslexia, and thee aree some professionals I know who would include other catagories such as social and environemental.

Of the official defintions the only one that should be included on the main page should be the WHO defintion there shoudl be a separate article for the various Natiuonal and/ or cultural definitions of dyslexia, amy a list of the various definitions.

The only reason that I contributed the 2003 Earopean research paper was bewcause it is the Only peer reviewed researfh paper that includes cited defintions of the various theories of dyslexia, in terms that most will understand, with some historical perpsective, and the magnocellular theory which tries to unify them all. If you read the Theories carefully, yoiu will see that they define the Sub types of dyslexia included in the section above, but using different headed names. So we should decide which names to feature and which banmes toi include in brackets as "also know as" So really there is a dup;lication here that can be reduced to a single set of Theories.

The Perceptual noise exclusion hypothesis is so very close to the recognised models of APD as I have listed on Arm's Article comments page. It could be considered a duplication of APD.

Effect of language orthography Welsh could also be included here, there is a joint dyslexia research project linking Spanish and Welsh as being more WYSIWIS languages sponsored by a university in Florida, and being carried out in Wales UK I would have to look up the finer details.

Speech, hearing and listening

This really does need sorting out, we first learn to speak and then we learn to use the visual notation of speech a natural learnbing progression. So those who have a problems learning to speak due to issues such as APD, and other realted issues will also late have problesm with the Visual Notation of Speec, (or whichever issues underly their cultures form of dyslexia). I do not think we need to redefine the characteistics, but link to speech development articles. and APD articles etc.

the Reading and spelling and Reading and spelling and Mathematical abilities

this could be put in a section "Practicle problems of having Dyslexia and each topic give a sperwate listing, reading, writing, spelling and maths.

Remedial programs and technologies There should be a basic description of waht some unspecified program could provide, and then all programs to be listed either a WIKI link (first) or an external link. Not all progrqam are available internatioanlly so may be reference to country of origi and may be also referance of international for those availalbe in may countries. (some program use different names in different countries ie FastForWord in the USA, and Neuron in the UK. and DDAT or Dore

Facts and statistics this should be integrated in another section, most stasticsl always seem to be disputed especially accross international boundaries.

Legal and educational support issues have a look at my old web site (still needs revamping, but some of the US linkls could be useful http://capdlinks.homestead.com/IEP_Law_LD_Resourses.html

Controversy this program was and still is about demolishing the myths that have built up around dyslexia and the lack of peer reviewed science that surrounds these mythical definitions of dyslexia in the UK. It is a wake up call for all concerened with dyslexia in the UK. And there has been some emotional over reaction and miss understanding of waht was being said.

best wishes

dolfrog 00:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

A Reply and Further Comments
Hi Sami

Using a new coping strategy now, typing out my answer in Microsoft Word and then pasting it to Wiki.

You will have to ignore me if I get stressed, unfortunately my broken shoulder/ arm ( just the muscles need to work properly now) has caused a few problems running my APD coping strategies, which can be very frustrating at times.

From your reply

1)It looks to me like your comments are mainly about the article and not so much about the navigation template itself --- yes?

 AGREED.

2) but I'm thinking it would be a good idea for me to get clear on your issues with the content of the article first. Is that OK with you?

 Ok With me 3) Definitions section

•	Need definitions of developmental dyslexia and acquired dyslexia.

 the article title is Dyslexia so we should define all types of dyslexia, and then state that the article is primarily concerned with Developmental Dyslexia, so that the uninformed visitor can have a more informed idea as to which type of dyslexia they wish to read about.

•	I don't know what you mean by "Social dyslexia" and "Environmental dyslexia?"

 Social / Environmental dyslexia is when a child is having an adverse reaction to their reaction to their domestic environment (home divorce and other problems) or social environment (bullying etc) all cause stresses and this can appear as dyslexia.

•	Keep the World Health Organization definition of dyslexia. Put national and other definitions on a separate Definitions page.

 WHO is as vague a definition as you will get, but it is the most politically acceptable, And if we have a separate article /page for the various national definitions of dyslexia, it will allow all to see their cultures definition of dyslexia, and it will take these sometimes confusing variations off of the main article.

•	We need a genaral defintion of dyslexia free from political and professionally skew input, something like:

This was just an attempt to provide a sample definition. But we need to avoid adopting a definition of dyslexia that may have a political or professional skew.

For instance in the UK the Government uses at least 3 definitions of dyslexia depending on whether the intended audiences is, dyslexic children, dyslexic adults or teachers. Although they are beginning to rationalise their approach. And we have some professionals defining dyslexia in line with their favoured remedial program.

I am not saying that all politicians and professionals are like this but those who are tend to be the ones who use marketing instead of science to sell their products and services. There is also no real agreed defintion of what dyslexia is even amoungst the scientific community, So we may need to use some common sense.

Dyslexia is about having problems using the cutlural visual notations of speech. There are many cultural variations in speech language, and is also reflected in the variations in the the Visual Notation of speech can present

Names of theories

•	There is duplication in these theories.

•	Need to decide which names of theories to feature and which names to include in brackets as "AKAs".

•	Question: I'm not quite following you here. Can you clarify? Which theories should I read, and where are they located? Or do you just mean the subsections on the Dyslexia page?

 In the current Scientific Research section we have

1) The phonological hypothesis (should be theory)

 this is also in the Sub Types of dyslexia Dysphonetic or Auditory Dyslexia

2) The rapid auditory processing theory

 this is also in the Sub Types of dyslexia Rapid automatic naming or Double Deficit

3) The visual theory

 this is also in the Sub Types of dyslexia Dyseidetic or visual dyslexia

4) The cerebellar theory

5) The magnocellular theory

 The reason I contributed the 2003 Peer Reviewed paper was because it included cited definitions of the recent Theories of Dyslexia  (1 – 4 listed above) which are now unified by the Magnocellular Theory, which not many will have heard of.

So I thought it useful to use this article as it defines many of the old theories (1 – 4 ) as well as the new unifying one. Somewhere I have a link to the full Magnocellular Theory.

•	subsections on the Dyslexia page?

Perceptual noise exclusion hypothesis a duplicate of APD Which term do you think we should use? should we put an "AKA" somewhere

 This about poor processing of information in low levels of background noise, pink sound or cafeteria levels of background noise. This is one of the established models of APD, and could be part of the corresponding Visual processing Disorder. It is more a symptom of the underlying causes of dyslexia than dyslexia itself (This is one of my own main symptoms of APD, and was one of the referral screening issues used for my eventual APD Assessment and Diagnosis) Until more research is done regarding Visual Processing Disorder, then the present title could be OK buy AKA APD for those who have Auditory causes of their dyslexia.

Include effect of Welsh language orthography

•	Question: Where can I get information about this?

 it is being done at one of the Welsh Universities. (Could be Bangor) I attended a Welsh Dyslexia Conference some years back (to promote APD and to check up on Phonomena Presentation, a new UK program at the time) And one of the other presentation was about the Welsh language and how similar in structure it is to Spanish. There was a lady from Florida explaining why her University was participating in and part funding the research program. I will have to dig out the notes.

Speech, hearing and listening

•	Question: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying on these, other than they need to be sorted out. I know that I don't really understand how all of the different speech skills and disorders inter-relate, so I definitely cannot sort this out on my own. Help! Can you help me figure out what info should be included in the article, and what info we should link out to

 Rhetorical Question. How do we learn to speak?

Speech is a man made communication system, with cultural variations.

We learn to speak by listening, processing what we hear, from others parents and family, peers etc. We then reprocess this information to create and process our own speech ( some with motor deficits may also have problems here as well). So those who have listening problems with have problems processing what others say, and then reprocessing this to develop their own speech. Auditory Processing is the medical term for listen, and those who have a listening problem have an auditory Processing Disorder. So those who have APD may have delayed Speech issues, as an early sign of the problems to come.

Dyslexia is about having problems with the visual notation of speech, an other man made communication system. So if you have problems processing Speech you will also have problems processing the visual notation of speech.

Most who have APD have problems processing phonic based information such as phonemes and graphemes, and prefer some thing more visual or picture based approach such as a whole word system of learning words. Learning new words can still a problem even for adult APDs.

The characteristics etc are similar to those in listed for all dyslexics and should not be repeated. Should be on a Speech and Language page or an APD page.

Otitis Media with effusion (glue ear). Is a severe ear infection which affects young children especially. A build up of sticky fluid in the ear, many children have grommets inserted to drain the fluid. However this can affect the child’s development and this is one of the ways a child can acquire APD. (the same applies to the Aborigines in Australia because they have no natural immunity to a similar Ear Infection and this causes them to acquire APD).

There are also some related listening and hearing issues that are not APD, but have similar affects on an individual.

(whoever started this section did more to confuse than explain (lol)

If you need more info just ask.

Practical problems related to Dyslexia

•	Create a section for topics reading, writing, spelling and maths.

•	Question: I'm not sure whether these should be considered symptoms of dyslexia --- is that how they are addressed in the UK? In the US they are typically considered to be different, although related, disorders. Though even in the US many organizations and researchers are very vague on this point.

•	How do you think we should handle this?

 Dyslexia is about having problems with text, so Dyslexia is about having problems with Reading, Writing and Spelling. So these are the practical problems to having Dyslexia. There are other causes of having problems with text such as motor issues.

But for those who are dyslexic, they are diagnosed as being dyslexic only because they have problems with reading, writing and spelling. And we should explain the practical problems.

As you say these are large topics, so should we mention that there are other causes of these problems and refer the reader on to another page or article which goes into greater detail into Problems with Reading, Writing and Spelling and also dyspraxia Autism, etc. and how these disorders cause reading etc problems.

Some difficulties in maths are due to problems with the language used to describe functions, and the maths questions as well. So a dyslexic may have problems with the language of maths but not the dyscalculia. (the calculating disorder).

List of programs/ therapies should include:

•	Description of what each program type could provide

•	List all programs along with links to Wiki articles or external links to web pages. Make clear each program's country of origin, and alternative names if they have different names in different countries  Agreed

	some programs have existing Wiki Articles so there is no need to describe them, and other programs have their own web sites. Getting involved with the technicalities of each program could be a problem, because there are some ongoing legal cases regarding some programs

	The controversial apsects in many cases is more due to the over exaggerated marketing claims made for these programs. Many help a small number of dyslexics, but the marketing may claim that the program helps all dyslexics. (Dore / DDAT is a good example of this) Hopefully If we create a clearer picture of what dyslexia is then we make force these companies to be more specific in the type of help  their products provide.

Facts and statistics

This should be integrated in another section, most statisticsl always seem to be disputed especially accross international boundaries

 most of the content of this section is covered in other sections of the article or could easily be added if not already included in another section.

The Statistics regarding dyslexia are very dubious, It depends on how each country defines dyslexia, the countries ability to diagnose dyslexia .In the UK. I was having a discussion last year with the Policy Director of the BDA and she told me that the BDA believed that there were 10 million dyslexics in the UK. This year the BDAs Education Director said that there were 6 million dyselxics in the UK during a Radio program. So that is a 4 million difference from the same organisation, (That is a difference of 7% of the UK population)

Legal and educational support issues

•	Have a look at my old web site (still needs revamping, but some of the US links could be useful http://capdlinks.homestead.com/IEP_Law_LD_Resourses.html.

 the content of this section repeats itself especially the UK court cases. The Phelps case is the only case worth detailing. There needs to be more on advocacy services to provide legal support, they can look up the case law histories.

Support should be done on say a dyslexia per country article page. Each country (or even state or county) will have its different ways of resolving this these types of issues. And it would probably be better covered by Learning Disability Legal advice in general Does it seem to you that I'm getting the gist of your comments?

 you are doing very well.

My problem is that I tend to go into too much detail, and I can make things seem over complicated but that is the way I have to cope.

Best wishes

dolfrog 08:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)