User talk:RotenAple

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My barnstars

 * See User:BrownHairedGirl/Barnstars

Hong Kong Cantonese
RE: 浪漫 is a loan word from Japanese (that's an incorrect statement) Hi, I would like to clarify that 浪漫(ロマンチック) is NOT a loan word from Japanese, most of the Japanese words were "borrowed" from Chinese at the very beginning, as soon as after World War II, the Japanese had borrowed a massive amount of words from English into their Katakana vocabulary. Long ago, Katakana script can only be used by men only, whereas Hiragana was used by women, children etc.

And if you were to visit www.google.com and type "romantic means", it will give you a brief history of the word "romantic", it was borrowed from Old French: romanz; re mid 17th century (referring to the characteristics of romance in a narrative): from archaic romaunt ‘tale of chivalry’, from an Old French variant of romanz (see romance).

Origin: Old French: romanz Old English: romaunt (tale of chivalry) Modern English: romantic (mid 17th century)

Please revert the edit.

P.S. I also notice that you've deleted a great amount of common vocabulary from the list, perhaps most of them you've never heard of, but I guaranteed you back then about 30 years ago (Year 1990) I hear them every single day when people were speaking Cantonese that was very close to that of English. Maybe not so common nowadays because Mandarin had taken over/replaced lots of English vocabulary. But those words are still very common in the English-speaking world.

(今日)倒水 "dou2 seoi2"	"pouring"	"倾盆大雨 傾盆大雨 (Comment: "Pouring" is a very common phrase in US/Canada, and same for "倒水(丫)!!" which meaning "落好大雨") 比薩 	"bei2 saat3 "	pizza 	比萨 	比薩 (Comment: I keep wondering why you delete this one, I've been to "Pizza Hut" in Hong Kong, so pizza is available) 馬賽克 	"maa5 coi3 hak1 "	mosaic 	马赛克 	馬賽克  (Comment: Why delete? It is from English, maybe not common in HK) 坦克 	"taan2 hak1 "	tank 	坦克 	坦克 (Comment: Why delete? It is from English) 雷達 	"leoi4 daat6 "	radar 	雷达 	雷達 (Comment: Why delete? It is from English) yo-yo悠悠球 	jau4 jau4 	        yo-yo 	悠悠球 	悠悠球 (Comment: Why delete? Do you even know what a "yo-yo" is? Have you ever played before?) 家年華	"gaa1 nin4 waa4"	carnival 	家年华 	家年華 (Comment: Why delete? It is from English) 開party	"paai3 deoi3 "	        party 	派对 	派對 (Comment: Why delete? It is from English) 暴凌/暴力	"baa3 ling4 "	        bullying 	暴凌/霸凌 	暴凌/霸凌 (Instead of saying 欺凌 we can say 暴凌 which is close to the English word "bullying") 尼古丁 	"nei4 gu2 ding1 "	nicotine 	尼古丁 	尼古丁 (Comment: Why delete? It is from English) 背囊 (calque) 	"bui3 nong4 "	backpack 	背包 	背包 (Comment: 背囊 was a very common word in Hong Kong, 書包 is actually from Mandarin. This shows how the language in Hong Kong had evolved over the last 30 years, I think eventually all Cantonese words would become Mandarin words...)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hastymashi (talk • contribs) 09:05, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Essentially the purpose of "transliteration" is to make it easier to learn a new language. Hong Kong people had been transliterating English words into the Cantonese vocabulary so that HK people could become more fluent in the English language. I hope we can continue doing so, but with China taken back Hong Kong, I truly think it's all over. All I am seeing right now is the new generation learning Mandarin and eventually they would be speaking Mandarin and transliterating Mandarin into English words. That's another story.

Hi. As what I've point out, 浪漫 is indeed a borrowing from Japanese. Although what you pointed out is also correct. Originally it IS a Chinese phrase, but the newer/ currently used definition entered Chinese through Japanese in an effort to translate foreign ideas, these words are known as 和製漢語. If you think this should be counted as Cantonese borrowing from English, it should also count as a borrowing from Latin, where English get this word. This is also the case where many words are phonetically transliterated into Mandarin then entered Cantonese. I don't think indirect borrowings should be considered and added into the list as it introduces confusion, as many word would require another field, pointing that it is a borrowing from proto-indo-european. However, I don't see any relation between this Wikipedia page and the recent China's expansion. Anyways, have a good day. RotenAple (talk) 09:10, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, many suggestions that many Cantonese words are borrowed from English, although they are often unproven. You pointed out that pizza is commonly available in Hong Kong, and thus 比薩 should be a Cantonese is also blatantly wrong. The Chinese word is actually a transliteration for Mandarin, as Hong Kong Cantonese speakers uses the English word pizza directly, although with tones assigned to it. RotenAple (talk) 09:15, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, although there is a counterpart in Cantonese for "Pouring" does not give enough proof for it to be considered a calque. A correlation does not always point to causation. For an example, the word "boy" and 坊や(bōya) features a similar pronunciation, but they are not related. RotenAple (talk) 09:22, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Btw, such words are borrowed into Japanese in the Meiji period (1868-1912) where many modern Chinese words are coined and borrowed back into Chinese (both Mandarin and Cantonese). Most words' original meaning has long fallen into disuse and these words are now only used for their new meaning. E.g. 民主 （democracy, (obsolete:) emperor) RotenAple (talk) 09:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, you've pointed out "浪漫 Originally it IS a Chinese phrase", that's just non-sense cuz "浪" means "wave" and "漫" means "overflow", the meaning of characters themselves have no correlations to the words "romantic/romance" at all, however only phonetically associated

浪漫 by itself doesn't mean anything in Chinese and impossible to explain it without associating it to a foreign word. Sure, if you wanna list it under "From Japanese", that's up to you. I mean not all people would agree/think so, a fraction would believe that the sound was borrowed from English and there's no doubt about it, just because English is now the international language.

You've also pointed out "浪漫 should also count as a borrowing from Latin", but every language evolves over a long period of time, from Romanicus(Latin) to Romanz(Old French) to Romance(Middle English), I guess you can say that the French borrowed it from Latin and then English had borrowed it from French. And the fact that Latin is now considered a "dead language" and had become extinct, "Which phrase makes more sense to majority of people in the world?" - a)"浪漫 was borrowed from Latin", or b)"浪漫 was borrowed from English"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hastymashi (talk • contribs) 00:29, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

hi. finally you have replied. i would be sorry to break your imagination that 浪漫 ISN'T a chinese phrase. (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%B5%AA%E6%BC%AB) your attempt of trying to prove your point by focusing on one example i've made is also quite interesting. I would humbly suggest that the phrase 浪漫 would be c) "borrowed from japanese." your attempt of proving a point with "Conventional wisdom" doesn't really work, as many "Conventional wisdom" are not well proven. for example, if some people has no knowledge in the language Latin, would the use of Latin in history become unproven? wikipedia should be a place where people could find proven information, not unfounded hypotheticals. if you would like to continue this argument, i would like to suggest that the following words are borrowed from Japanese and should be added into the page. "文化、文明、民族、思想、法律、経済、資本、階級、分配、宗教、哲学、理性、感性、意識、主観、客観、科学、物理、化学、分子、原子、質量、固体、時間、空間、理論、文学、美術、喜劇、悲劇、社会主義、共産主義" btw, "long time" and "dead language" also does not lead to a conclusion that you would suggest. RotenAple (talk) 01:05, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Thanks for the list of words that were borrowed from Japanese. If indeed those words were borrowed from Japanese then yes, they should be added to the list. I happened to find this page, somebody else also suggested "浪漫" was borrowed from "Romantic", perhaps that's an incorrect statement. So then it's just a coincidence that they sound similar(?) https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B5%AA%E6%BC%AB%E4%B8%BB%E4%B9%89 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/浪漫主义 "詞源: 中文「浪漫」一詞來自「Romantic」，而「Romantic」和「Romance」的字根是羅馬（Roman、Roma）..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hastymashi (talk • contribs) 19:27, 22 September 2019 (UTC)