User talk:RussHawk

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing because your account is only being used to contravene Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding below this notice the text, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Nick-D (talk) 07:46, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I apologise for the previous "wall of text" which is now remedied. I was unaware that I needed to add the markup code for paragraph breaks.RussHawk (talk) 00:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * As an aside, you should not be using HotCat for making unblock requests. HotCat is for adding categories, and an unblock request is not a category, so all that happens is your unblock request is placed inside a Category tag which doesn't make sense. You should just use the "Edit" tab at the top of the page and enter your unblock request (or any other comment) at the bottom of the page. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the tip Boing! said Zebedee. I inadvertantly created a category and then attempted to remove it. I have read some WP guide pages but as I have no previous experience with HTML I am struggling with the terminology and markup protocols. The question that I was asking is this - Do I need to paste my request into a new unblock template in order to alert administrators so they can read it, or will administrators be aware of the previous unanswered request (that was rejected due to my text formatting problems but is now fixed)? I do not want to duplicate the unblock request and then find that I have breached a rule and get blocked from the talk page. I appreciate helpful comments.RussHawk (talk) 06:21, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You may not ever amend an already declined unblock request - as the unblock was based on the contents of the request at the time. A new unblock request that meets the requirements under WP:GAB - keeping in mind WP:AAB is needed.  Another wall of text in an unblock will not be acceptable (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:35, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify that my first unblock request was declined because of my text formatting error that made the text unreadable to the administrator. I edited the request to make it readable, because I understood that the content had not been read and was therefore not the basis of the request being declined. I take the point that declined unblock requests should not be edited and I will initiate a new unblock request.RussHawk (talk) 12:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Please make it markedly shorter. Any unblock request that cannot be expressed succinctly in five to ten lines of text - fifteen at maximum - is unlikely to be accepted. Write as you please, of course, but bear this advice in mind.--Anthony Bradbury"talk" 12:09, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice Anthony Bradbury. I will summarise the main points and resubmit in a couple of minutes.RussHawk (talk) 12:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * In declining your latest unblock request, I restricted myself to showing that you claim not to ahve infringed the biogrpahies of living persons policy, since that is the reason for the block. However, it may help you if you are aware of some other problems with your editing, so I will spend a little of my time pointing them out. I hope this will be helpful to you. Even if you had cited valid sources, it would not have been acceptable to have stated opinions as though they were facts. A Wikipedia article needs to be written from a neutral point of view, and stating opinions is not acceptable, no matter how justified yu think those opinions are. You may like to look at the article Adolf Hitler, and see how it does not express opinions, such as "Hitler was an evil racist beast". This is not because the article has been hijacked by Nazi supporters: it is because numerous Wikipedia editors have taken pains to ensure that it is written from a neutral point of view. A neutral point of view does not mean the point of view that you, or I, or anyone else, personally believes is "right". By your own assertions on this talk page, your purpose in editing is to promote a point of view: "... my motivation to edit the page was to highlight the inappropriateness of a politician promoting racism", "My intention in contributing to the Laming biography was to note that this politician feels that it is acceptable to publish deliberately racist comments, which I see as a sad reflection that racism seems to have become acceptable in Australia", etc. It is unacceptable to edit in order to promote a point of view, no matter how strongly you believe that point of view to be a good one. It is very common for people who come to Wikipedia with the purpose of promoting a political point of view, as you have done, to assume that anyone who opposes what they do is motivated by a desire to promote a contrary point of view. However, that is not always the case. Have you carefully studied the editing history of Nick-D, and found him to consistently support a particualr political point of view? If not, then what makes you think that his blocking you was done in order "to support politically allied contributors and to unilaterally silence dissenting voices"? What evidence is there that he was not acting because he sincerely was trying to uphold Wikipedia's policy, and believed that you were infringing it? It does not increase, and may often decrease, the likelihood of an unblock request's succeeding by making unsubstantiated accusations against other Wikipedia editors. Doing so may be seen as evidence of a battleground approach to fellow editors, rather than a willingness to edit collaboratively, and to accept that other editors may be acting in good faith, even when you disagree with them. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello JamesBWatson, I appreciate that you have taken the time to actually cite some of the concerns with the Laming page. I hope that you do not mind hearing out my perspective on the context behind my apparent wrongdoing. My intention is not to dispute your judgement that the content is inappropriate, but to illustrate that for a relative newcomer like myself the history of this page presents conflicting and confusing examples about what is acceptable on Wikipedia.

It puzzles me that although my original comment seemed to me to comply with BLP policy, was properly referenced and was not my own opinion, it was tagged as vandalism. This was a large part of the reason that I later chose to restore content from other editors (that I perhaps wrongly assumed to be acceptable because it was not tagged as vandalism) rather that risking contributing original content that somehow broke WP rules.

With regard to the example that you cited, I agree with you that I should have been more vigilant when I restored this edit that was written by another editor. It seems that the reference belongs only to the first sentence, and that the second sentence is indeed unfounded personal opinion. I agree that the accusation of racism is not specifically made in the source, but I think it is certainly implicit in the referenced news article, for example, "MP's tweet on racial tensions 'disgraceful and callous'" and "Federal Opposition Indigenous health spokesman Andrew Laming has been accused of posting inflammatory remarks on social media about racial tensions south of Brisbane." Whether the actual Twitter comment in question is racist is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder. In the only original content that I contributed I quoted an online petition started by an Aboriginal woman who had found the Twitter comment racist, yet this content was tagged as vandalism for reasons that are still not clear to me.

As to claims that Laming's supporters or staff were behind a campaign to remove references to the Twitter incident, I admit that I took that comment more or less at face value. I had personally observed that apparently legitimate content about the Twitter incident was being removed or heavily edited and it did seem plausible that the Wikipedia page was being cleansed by Laming's supporters, although I do agree that with no solid evidence publishing that allegation is inappropriate. I note that this part of the content that I restored was deleted 13 minutes later, and I made no further attempts to restore it. So, without excusing my wrongdoing, due WP process prevailed. I acknowledge that although I did not write it, by reinstating this content I became responsible for it, but this comment was logically not the reason that I was blocked, the original creator of this content was not blocked and I was not blocked until after I had reinstated the "racist Twitter comments" content more than two weeks later.

The sentence refering to "racist Twitter comments" remained in the article for more than two weeks without being deleted or attracting any criticism from administrators. When the content was deleted, an editor restored it citing "reinstate referenced text" and apparently was not penalised. After that same content was deleted a second time, I restored it and was blocked. I can honestly say that at the time I was not fully aware of the significance of the BLP tag. In retrospect, I would have been wise to have studied the BLP policy more carefully and if I still chose to reinstate the content I should have modified the content to comply with BLP policy, or even better sought advice via the Talk pages.

It confuses me that throughout the history of this page there are deliberate examples of vandalism and defamatory statements that did not attract any penalties. (I know that this is the case because some of these editors do not have a 'Talk' page, so cannot have been blocked.)

When I observed that there was a process of sanitising the content of the Laming article I felt that it was important that the article preserved mention of his "racist" ("inflammatory", "disgraceful and callous") Twitter comments. If my intent is not appropriate for Wikipedia, then surely the intent of the editors who persistently deleted referenced factual content without discussion or explanation must also be inappropriate?

As I stated, my initial motivation to read the Laming article was because I do not believe that our society should tolerate racist politicians. I explained my motivation to make it very clear that I came to the article with an ethical perspective rather than a party political agenda. I do not believe that having an opinion about racism or any other issue should disqualify me from contributing. Respectfully, I do not agree that my "purpose in editing is to promote a point of view" but in the context of the apparent campaign to remove a noteworthy incident from the article my intent was to bring it back towards balance. Had I and other editors contributing similar content not acted, and all reference to the alleged racism was deleted, would the article be more neutral or would it read a like a biography from Laming's electoral website?

The objective of neutrality in an article clearly benefits from contributions from many points of view. I sincerely doubt that there are any editors, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, who can honestly claim that their contributions and choice of subjects are not motivated by some ideology or belief. By stating my ethical position I was simply being honest but that only seems to have dug this hole deeper. Let's not pretend that Wikipedia is written by robots, or people who aspire to be robots.

My comment that "it concerns me to learn that a WP administrator seems to have the power to support politically allied contributors and to unilaterally silence dissenting voices" was not intended as a particular attack on Nick-D, but as an observation that the system of policing editors could very easily be abused. For example, no warnings need to be given before blocking, no specific reasons need to given at the time a block is imposed, there appears to little consistency in whether penalties are imposed, content can be tagged as vandalism without seeking an explanation from the editor (for example my original content, I am still not sure who applied that tag or why). Since writing my initial unblock request I have very carefully studied the history of the article and I note that Nick-D has made edits in a balanced manner. I apologise for any implication that Nick-D had taken a biased or partisan approach.

I have certainly learned a lot about the Wikipedia process, rules and objectives, which is clearly a positive. I do now understand why it was careless and unacceptable to reinstate the unfounded allegation that there was organised censoring of Lamings online content, and why the language of the "racist Twitter comment" is not appropriate. I still believe in the principle that led me to contribute to this article, that an elected figure should serve all of the community to the best of their ability - meaning that I believe that substantial evidence of racism or other bias is noteworthy. However I now understand that although it may be acceptable to refer to specific comment or incident, if properly referenced, it is inappropriate to make allegations or attempt to draw conclusions myself. In other words, not to present "opinions as though they were facts."

I still do not know why my intial comment was tagged as "possible vandalism or BLP issue", but in any case the comment was deleted because was "not notable" and I did not challenge that.

In the WP manuals there is talk about encouraging inexperienced editors, and explaining breaches rather than blocking as a first option. It suprises me that it is not Wikipedia protocol to first address and hopefully resolve issues via the Talk page. I seem to have been cast as the worst villain of the Laming article when other editors reinstated exactly the same content that led to the block, some editors were almost certainly involved in censoring or sanitising the article, and a few editors contributed nothing more than defamation and insults. Essentially, due to my unfamiliarity with BLP policy, I have been blocked for reinstating one sentence (written by someone else) that had already been part of the article for more than two weeks without attracting any comment.

I apologise for the length of this response. RussHawk (talk) 18:15, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * }


 * You raise a number of interesting points in your comments above. I will comment on just a few of them.
 * I too do not believe that our society should tolerate racist politicians. It does seem that Laming made a comment which attracted a good deal of attention, and which is probably notable enough to be included in the article. However, it is necessary to make sure that whatever is included in the article merely reports factually what is found in reliable sources, and does not add an interpretation or opinion.
 * It would not surprise me at all if Laming's supporters or staff were behind a campaign to remove references to the incident, including editing the Wikipedia article, because that sort of campaign does frequently happen. However, we cannot say so just because some of us suspect it is so, without reliable sources. I will try to remember to come back to this when I get time, and look at the editing history of the editors who have edited in connection with this incident, and see if there is any sign of single purpose accounts trying to whitewash the article. I emphasise that I have not yet checked, and so at present I have no idea whether that is the case or not.
 * You say "In retrospect, I would have been wise to insert a disclaimer into the content before reinstating it, such as 'Twitter comment that many people interpreted as being racist.' " That would be a step in the right direction, but even that would be acceptable only if supported by reference to at least one reliable source that records the fact that people have taken it that way.
 * You say "I do not believe that having an opinion about racism or any other issue should disqualify me from contributing". Absolutely.
 * You make various comments about people being treated unequally. I have not checked the relevant history (again, I may do so when I have more time), but there are two possibilities. Firstly, it may be that there are genuine differences which justify the distinction, which you have not recognised. If I see any such differences, I will come back and tell you. Secondly, unfortunately, very often someone who should be warned, blocked, or whatever, isn't, and another person who has done no worse is, simply because nobody who would have taken action happens to have come along when the first person took their unacceptable action. This is unjust, but unfortunately it is inevitable in a system which works the way that Wikipedia does. For the same reason, the fact that certain content has remained unchallenged for a two weeks does not guarantee that it is compliant with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines: sometimes completely unacceptable content remains for a long while until anyone notices it and takes action, sometimes for much more than just a couple of weeks.
 * Blocking an editor immediately, with no attempt to first explain what the problems are, is not the usual procedure. There are exceptional circumstances where doing so is justifiable, but I confess that I cannot see any obvious reason why this case should be considered such an exception. I have attempted to go somewhere towards correcting this, by spending some time writing this and my previous messages to you, and I am also giving you a (somewhat belated) Welcome message, with links to pages relating to various aspects of how Wikipedia works. Don't try to read and digest them all, as there are far too many of them, but do look at any that seem relevant to your needs.
 * Finally, please feel welcome to contact me on my talk page if you have any questions, or need any help. I don't promise to always be able to help, but I will do what I can. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello JamesBWatson, thank you for investing such a lot of effort into providing your detailed response and the helpful advice. After reading your profile page it is obvious that you have made an enormous contribution to nurturing and guiding editors and improving the quality of countless articles. I think your approach, which relies a lot on trust rather than punishment, has to be the most productive way to resolve issues and at the same time ensure that Wikipedia remains a welcoming and open environment.

One of the most important things for me in your response is your acknowledgement that incidents of "whitewashing" articles do occur and can be an issue. It felt like by suggesting that whitewashing may have been occuring on the Laming page I had broken some taboo, and worse than that I admitted to trying to counter it. I will search for Wikipeida policy around this issue so that I better understand how to respond, on a talk page or by alerting administrators etc.

I am not sure if my experience was typical of the Wikipedia unblock process, but I have to say I was very close to concluding that Wikipedia was a closed, bureaucratic and sometimes hostile community, and simply giving up. I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn, and the unblock process certainly pushed me to learn the basics, but I wonder how many well intentioned people find such a process so negative that they do just give up on contributing to Wikipedia?

One thing that really appeals to me is that Wikipedia is, or can be, a place where people can make a contribution to recording history and knowledge regardless of their academic or social background. Wikipedia can be a knowledge base that is not dominated by elites (governments, academia or corporations) but can be created by all of us - if we learn to follow a few rules!

Thank you for the welcome, the links and the offer to contact you on your talk page. I will certainly take your advice on board as I venture further in Wikipedia. 101.173.255.247 (talk) 07:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Query to blocking administrator
You may be interested in this edit, where I have asked the blocking administrator to clarify the reasons why you were blocked. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:56, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I realise now that my first action should have been to request clarification of reasons for the block. Regards, RussHawk (talk) 12:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

June 2016
Hello, I'm Kaobear. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of your recent contributions —the one you made with this edit to Lloyd Babb— because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Kaobear (talk) 17:30, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Revert
Hello RussHawk, I will be more than happy to address your concerns as you asked them and, in the end explain my decision. I may answer your questions out of order and in a combined fashion, I think you shall see why by the end.

1. In reference to Question 6, I am a rollback user and thus have access to software which lets me see new edits. Not from a particular source, page, or user, all of them as they come in. It was a chance draw that I was the person who looked at your edit first. I have no personal, professional or any other stake in the edit.

2. The rest of them are summed up easily. I made an error. Perhaps my eyes drifted for a second to another page I was looking at. I do not know. Since you posted this to my page I have since reverted the page to your edit. I do suggest you go over it for style reasons, but that is me being nitpicky.

Again, I apologize for reverted a perfectly reasonable and well thought out, researched, and unbiased edit.

I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.

If you need anything else, please do not hesitate to ask.

Kaobear (talk) 18:51, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

May 2021
Hello, I'm 49ersBelongInSanFrancisco. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to Simandou seemed less than neutral and has been removed. If you think this was a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. 49ersBelongInSanFrancisco (talk) 05:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)