User talk:Ruud Koot/2007

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wikiproject namespace
At Wikiversity we were able to create two new namespaces for "wikiprojects", a "School:" namespace and a "Topic:" namespace. There is a hierarchy in which Wikiversity "School" pages often "contain" multiple "Topics". Each Wikiversity "Topic" is the equivalent of a "wikiproject": a content development project for a particular academic topic. It is unfortunate that Wikipedia wikiprojects grew up within the Wikipedia namespace....I suspect they are locked in to that namespace due to cultural momentum. --JWSchmidt 03:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You may well be right, which is unfortunate as I believe having WikiProjects in a separate namespace would stress the importance of collaboration. —Ruud 03:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Request comments on AfD
Happy New Year, Ruud. There is a list that has been created that has created quite an uproar. I was wondering if you would care to comment about it:

List of articles related to quackery

It has already been recommended for deletion: AfD

Would appreciate your comments/viewpoint if it should be deleted and how quickly. Thanks Steth 04:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

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NavFrames
I saw in the wiki js that you are the maintainer of NavFrame. Well, navframes don't seem to be working anymore. There's no show/hide link. This might be collateral damage or something from other changes made but I don't know any developers and I figure that if you're maintaining it then you can get it sorted out. --⁪froth T 10:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems to be working fine here. Check your personal script, some people have reported things breaking the last few days. This may also interfere with the execution of the site's global script. —Ruud 13:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Informatics interwiki links
I've started a discussion on Talk:Informatics.

Michael Fourman 17:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

NavFrame JavaScript
Hi Ruud. What do you think about making the changes I suggested a while back to. Specifically, avoiding calling  on every iteration. Mike Dillon 19:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's the diff. Mike Dillon 20:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

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LIS
Hi there, R! Well, since my degree is in library and information science I guess I feel a bit strongly about it. The main concern for librarians, I think, is to not give people the impression that library science does not involve information science. Library science was, if you will, the earliest form of information science, and in its best incarnation forms a unique relationship with IS. I hope that having plainly side-by-side, or above or below,  is not confusing anyone. I suppose that if the category makes the relationship between IS & LIS clear, I could live with a rename.

One touchy part of this issue for librarians is that many former library schools have changed their focus, name, and degree toward electronic information science, in order to avoid the perception of "library science" as an obsolete clerical profession; we LISers want to emphasize that the two are intertwined and that librarian is just as legitimate and useful a title as information scientist. Hope I'm making sense. Her Pegship  (tis herself) 04:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And see my comments there. DGG 04:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

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Math Circle
Some promotional material about math circle was recently added (now removed) to mathematics education. When I checked to see if there was an article on it in Wikipedia, I noticed that you had marked it as advertising. Given the spam appearing about it, I would suggest that is indeed the case. What is the process from here?Trishm 11:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It probably needs to be rewritten or perhaps even deleted (see WP:PROD or WP:AFD.) —Ruud 13:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

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header
Sorry KOOT ; What article are you talking about?when you said : Toomer's quote is already sourced Aziz1005 00:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * al-Khwarizmi. —Ruud 00:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * ok, never mind...thanx for telling me Aziz1005 00:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

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NavFrame
Hello. I was looking into using the collapsing ability to resolve a TfD dispute, but it doesn't quite address my needs. Is there a way to generalize the solution just a bit? If not, do you have an alternate suggestion? &hArr; ChristTrekker 19:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a automated to all bot operators
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Rock music Wikiproject invitation
Hello WikiProject Metal member. WikiProject Metal music is important in expanding encyclopedic coverage of the metal. It brings attention to the lesser-known bands, and significantly improves the quality of the famous ones. Five Featured articles and two formers is proof of that. This is the stuff I wish to achieve with the somewhat recently resurrected WikiProject Rock music. I hope to also attract attention to rock music articles of all sorts, and hopefully change some to GA or FA status. I invite you to come join us, and embrace the links between metal and rock music in general. Rock on. -- Reaper  X  05:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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Information science
The image probably does fall under fair use, just not by Wikipedia's standards. Fair use is a very vague area of the law. Try to find an image for information science.Destitute 00:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal from autoblock whitelist
Per, please see discussion on the talk page. In fact, I can personally tell you that several people were caught up in on autoblock on that address. We're not sure that CIDR is working properly (as the talk page states). Part Deux 19:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

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removing old merge tags
Hi, I noticed you are removing merge tags placed nearly a year ago. I sincerly doubt the usefulness, for example this removal. The merge tag indicates that there is a problem with the article and give a solution to it. Noone has likely acted on (or discusse) it due to a lack of visibilty. I believe it would be a better idea to place a mergeinto tag on the merge target or notify a relevant WikiProject instead of "painting the rotten wood". Cheers, —Ruud 23:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem is the merge was not proposed properly as there was no corresponding mergefrom on Tiger. Proposing merges is only useful if someone is interested in performing the merge.  There have been many articles where the consensus clearly favored a merge and I performed it.  In cases like this, where the merge is not proposed on both articles and there is no discussion whatsoever, it is hard for me to justify unilaterally merging the articles.  Meanwhile, the tag is doing nothing.  If it hasn't helped in the last 11 months why should it mater now?  I think, in this case, I could have re-proposed the merge properly and initiated a discussion.  I have done this on some of the other articles.  I seem to be the only one interested in clearing this backlog and there are a lot of articles to get through.  Sometimes I don't make the best decision on what to do with the request, but any other party (you for instance) is free to re-propose the merge on both pages and initiate discussion him or herself.  --Selket Talk 23:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Meta-modeling
Reverting my removal accomplishes nothing. The discussion existed for a much older version of the two articles. If you think it still needs to be merged, why don't you add the templates properly and initiate the discussion? --Selket Talk 00:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Your recent edits on User:Walter Humala/USERNAME
Hi Ruud, I'm wondering what's the purpose of your edits there. Please tell me, I also wanna figure out how to make that script works (it should make loggeduser's name show somewhere). Thanks! --–  Emperor Walt er Humala  · ( shout! · sign? ) 00:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Nothing which has anything to do with this script in particular. The function  has been renamed to  . If you add the script to Special:Mypage/monobook.js it should display your name  here . —Ruud 18:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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Age category
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Thanks
Thank for you: addOnloadEvent --> addOnloadHook --Nguyễn Thế Phúc Talk 10:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

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The Foundation for the Study of Cycles
Hi Ruud. If you wish to delete the article The Foundation for the Study of Cycles it would be more appropriate to offer it up for discussion at Articles for deletion than to attempt a redirect. I have undone your revert and would welcome a discussion on this. As a matter of interest RayTomes has asked for assistance in this matter: Association of Members' Advocates/Requests/February 2007/RayTomes, and I am acting as his advocate. Regards. SilkTork 17:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocking of RayTomes
Hi again Ruud. It has just been brought to my attention that you have blocked RayTomes. Ray has asked for assistance Association of Members' Advocates/Requests/February 2007/RayTomes, and I am acting as his advocate. Would you be able to give me your reasons for blocking him? His current actions are under my direction, and as such are not against consensus. SilkTork 18:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Replied at User talk:SilkTork. —Ruud 00:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello SilkTork, I will unblock Ray Tomes on the the conditions that Cheers, —Ruud 22:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * he will not recreate any previously deleted articles or categories (and that you will direct him to the proper channels such as WP:DRV if he disagrees with the deletion and suggest any rewrites to be made in user-space instead).
 * you understand that being his advocate does not give you the right to singlehandedly override community consensus and therefore do not encourage him to, for example, recreate deleted articles and also revert your recreation of The Foundation for the Study of Cycles (there was no consensus to delete or merge the article, there clearly was a consensus not to keep the article as is. Again, if Ray or you disagree with this outcome of the previous deletion discussion it should be taken to WP:DRV.)


 * P.S. as Ray already found out himself there already exists a more clearly named Category:Periodic phenomena so could you (if unblocked) encourage him to work with that category instead. —Ruud 22:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ruud. Thanks for getting back to me. Clearly there is a depth of feeling involved here, and matters will need to proceed with care. My recent advise to Ray Tomes is that we get The Foundation for the Study of Cycles and List of cycles through consensus before doing any more work on reviving the cycles category. As such you and I are in accord as to the best way to proceed.
 * Just for the record - Ray Tomes has not, to my knowledge since applying for assistance, recreated any previously deleted articles. Nor am I aware at this moment of any intention of his to do so.
 * Also for the record, there has been recent discussion on my talk page regarding my undiverting The Foundation for the Study of Cycles in which it is clear that is was I who did this, and that my understanding of the situation is that there was no consensus to delete the article.
 * Also for the record, it was my suggestion that Ray Tomes recreate the cycle category. I'm not aware of policy to ban editors for having another go at creating an article or category deleted a year and a half ago. Time has passed. Things change. Articles and categories get resubmitted for deletion, and deleted articles get rewritten and sometimes survive and thrive. I may be wrong in that belief, and I would be grateful for you to directing me to the policy if I am. Perhaps I have been misled here. Ray Tomes has directed me to the discussion on deleting the category, and that took place on 28 September 2005, and four people voted to delete it . Are there any other instances that I am not aware of? Has Ray Tomes attempted several times to create this category and I'm not aware of it? I'd like to be aware of the full facts. And it does seem that this topic arouses deep feelings. All information is valuable. Regards, SilkTork 04:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Math Maniac
This user has requested an unblock. As you are the blocking admin, I am asking your reasoning for the block. When you blocked the user, you simply gave the reason of "moron" which isn't an actual reason for blocking. May I ask why he was blocked? IrishGuy talk 23:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If you look at his contributions you will see that they fit to the definition rather well: his contributions are not very useful, several are borderline-vandalism. I don't think he's unreformable though, but give the fact that he "contributes" only very occasionally this seemed like the quickest way to have him get to pay attention. —Ruud 00:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've unblocked him. I saw no warnings, no attempt to tell him that what he was doing was wrong. I hardly think that "moron" is a proper reason to block someone. Metros232 12:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Re NavFrame font-size
Hi Ruud,
 * ''Why did you revert my change?

It looked like something you'd overlooked when reverting yourself... or had you planned to send a bot to adjust all affected templates accordingly...? Yours, David (talk) 16:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ''Which templates are "affected" and how should they be adjusted?
 * Any (and I guess all) templates using class="NavFrame"; especially, for example, templates using the Navigation family of templates (cf Navigational templates). Their use probably runs into the thousands. I imagine Hidden and related templates are similarly affected. The problem is that setting NavFrame's font-size at less than 95% means that the basic font-size for templates and anything else using the NavFrame-NavHead-NavContent combination becomes too small. What motivated you to make this fundamental change...? David (talk) 16:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ''Consistency with table.navbox. I suspect that this change (unintentionally) caused the font-size of the navigational boxes' contents to fall blow 90%, it this correct?
 * Yes; I thought it was unlikely you'd intended this effect. However, assuming there are no others, it might not be so tricky to reapply the change; Navigation, for instance, uses, so all that would be needed in addition to the change in NavFrame font-size would be the removal of the font-size:0.9em style – at least, that's how it looks without experimentation. I guess it would be the same for the other templates in Navigational templates using NavFrame-NavHead-NavContent. Hidden (and Hidden begin and...), however, doesn't include a font-size setting within its code, so I suppose one would need to be inserted in order to compensate... Perhaps, then, making this NavFrame change might be more hassle than imagined; I haven't tried finding other uses of NavFrame that would need compensation. What do you think...?  Yours, David (talk) 06:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Unblocking of User:RayTomes
Hi Ruud. Is Ray unblocked yet? SilkTork 16:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. My advise to Ray Tomes is on his talk pageUser_talk:RayTomes: "My suggestion now will be that we hold any action on the Category:Cycles until The Foundation for the Study of Cycles and List of cycles have both been through a discussion and survived. With support and credibility from consensus we will better able to proceed. SilkTork 18:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)" Clearly there is no provocation to disruption, instead there is a decision to go through consensus. Your refusal to unblock is becoming very contentious. Ray Tomes is not disruptive. Your initial decision to block him was unsound, and your continued refusal to unblock him is provocative. I would, at the very least, like to see you consult with another Admin about this as I suspect you've allowed personal feelings cloud your judgment. SilkTork 17:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

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Re: Information Science

 * Please see Portal:Library and information science.

WP Munich
 Hello,

You are invited to join WikiProject Munich!

There are a lot of things to do in this project. From creating new articles to finetuning articles into featured article status.

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If you have any questions feel free to contact myself or any other member of the project.

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Dismiss for watchlist-message
Hi Ruud. Nice idea with the dismiss button for watchlist message. You might want to put a note in the JS comments that the cookie added only lasts until the user's browser is closed. When I first saw the code, I thought that it would result in never again seeing the watchlist message, but then I realized you weren't setting the "expires" value.

Also, there is no need to append "document.cookie" to the end of the new value. The  method on the   object is magical and a plain assignment results in just the one cookie being added and not in overwriting the values of all previous cookies. The way you're doing it works, since the values you're appending are just ignored because the browser only expects things like "path" and "expires" after the first semicolon, but it isn't doing anything to maintain the existing cookies. The Mozilla Developer Connection has a short summary (other browsers work the same way since this behavior is just a reimplementation of the original Netscape Navigator behavior). There is a fuller explanation at http://www.quirksmode.org/js/cookies.html. Mike Dillon 04:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

justify paragraphs only in articlespace
Thank you for your helpful suggestion at Wikipedia:Village pump. It works perfectly. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 04:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Information science
I think you're totally wrong, and if you look at many information science programs in the United States, they have similar symbols for their programs. I think you are doing wikipedia a disservice.
 * See for example UC Berkeley's School of Information: http://www.ischool.berkeley.edu/

Portal:Library and information science
Hi Ruud Koot,

I appreciate your contributions to the LIS portal. As the portal is in the middle of featured portal candidacy, I've reverted some of your changes, while keeping at least one other. You can take up this discussion on the appropriate talk page. Please, in the future, consider not make significant changes to a peer reviewed and featured portal candidate with three votes of support without attempting discussion first. Cheers. Planetneutral talk  01:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the response. I would accept offers of a more relevant image, since I have no particular affection for that one. I just can't find anything else more appropriate. Any ideas? Planetneutral talk  01:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Tables ugly again
A table does not look right again. (SEWilco 03:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC))

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TfD nomination of Template:Unicode Latin
Template:Unicode Latin has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — &#9993; Hello World! 06:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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your reverts on the Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī article
Hello. Can you please explain why you are reverting my edits on the Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī article? Thanks. -- Behnam 09:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not making any claims. Ofcoarse his ethnicity was Persian. And like I explained several times, Persians and/or Persian-speakers living east of Iran and Central Asia were and still are called Tajik. I think you are confusing this term with the nationality of Tajikistan. This has nothing to do with the nationality of Tajikistan. Al-Khwarizmi was a Persian from Central Asia, and Persian of Central Asia are also known as Tajiks. Again this has nothing to do with Tajikistan and that nationality. Please read both the Persian people article and the Tajiks article and you will understand perfectly. I am reverting it back to my version and if after reading both those articles you disagree then... well I don't think you will disagree. I hope I am not wasting too much of your time. Thanks. -- Behnam 09:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think you read a word of what I just explained to you or either of the articles on Persian people and Tajiks. If you did you would not think that that means he is Tajik but not Persian and vice versa. I am not making any claims about his ethnicity and there is no dispute of him being Persian. Please read both those articles before making another revert. And yes I am aware of 3RR. Thanks. -- Behnam 09:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see. But one source is Wikipedia itself. In Wikipedia Persians and/or Persian-speakers of Central Asia are also called Tajik and this is from two of Wikipedia's articles. I am just trying to maintain consistency with these terms which are defined in two Wiki articles. But if that is not good enough, here is one source I just found that also uses the term Tajik to refer to him being an ethnic Persian and/or him being Persian-speaker of Central Asia. It refers to him as being a "Tajik personality". . -- Behnam 10:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I don't think it is very redundant to cite this source. I am just using it to convince you, since no one else disputes this. And there are alot of people from WikiProject Iran and others keeping a watch on this article. These terms are common knowledge among people with a backround in Persian and Iranian history. So I don't think there is any point of citing this. It would be very redundant. -- Behnam 10:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that, I didn't know that you would see the changes. Actually being Persian and Tajik were both equivalent during the medieval era on the Iranian plateau and Central Asia. Ok I see why you would think that my source is not reliable, even though I think it is. I will try to find a source that directly calls him Tajik and is authoritve, though it will be very difficult because in the Western world the term Tajik is not used for Persian personalties, in English they exclusively use the term Persian. But, is Wikipedia itself not a reliable source? -- Behnam 10:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know, you're right. I don't think I will find a source using the term Tajik along or instead of Persian since that word was rarely used in the Western world. Persian is the standard term used in the Western world (even though the native term for Persian is actually Farsi). But please keep in mind that even if I find a source, it will look very silly citing it. Also, I think this WP:V depends on an Admin's judgment. Is it ok with you if I get another Admin to judge whether this is WP:V or not? -- Behnam 10:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually if you look at the times on the history page you'll see that I did not revert since I started this discussion. There is a problem with Wiki tonight. Please undo my reporting of the 3RR violation. Thanks. -- Behnam 10:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you please confirm that? I really don't want to get banned just because Wiki is having problems with the Watchlists. Thanks. -- Behnam 11:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No thats not the problem. Take a look at the times, its just that its not being updated. You already reverted my edit, its just not being updated for some reason. Do you see what I mean? -- Behnam 11:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Then this a glitch, it is showing the times wrong too. After I made that edit you reverted it saying "see re" or something like that. And see the number of my RVs, please count them, there is only 3. So I did not break 3RR. I think the glitch will be fixed later on. Until then, please undo my 3RR violation report. Thanks --Behnam 11:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you please confirm that you only count 3 on the history page in the past 24 hours by me? Thanks. --Behnam 11:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Template:IAST
I noticed that you made a change to Template:IAST, and I wonder if you would help me understand the technical issues of that change. Within the Hinduism project there has been some effort to rework the style standards for use of IAST, and a summary of the current thinking is at: User:Buddhipriya/IASTUsage. It would be very helpful to me if you would give that a read and make any comments on it that feel are relevant. If you can document the issues that pertain to handling of the IAST tag in different web browsers, that information can be added as well. Buddhipriya 21:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Replied at User talk:Buddhipriya. —Ruud 21:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

re: Persien: bis zum Einbruch des Islam
No it does not use the term Tajik for him. On those pages 485-498, it explains that once Persian migrated to Central Asia, there they were called Tajik. So this source is indirect for him being called Tajik, doesn't call him that directly. --Behnam 09:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok thanks. I'll look for another source. --Behnam 09:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes you're right lol. I am actually not a math student, I am a science student and my interest is Iranology. That's what I work on on Wiki and with this I'm just trying to maintain consistency with the terms we defined in the other Iranology articles. Thanks, I actually think I know a source that I just thought of, but it is a very difficult book to find and my University's library does not have it. So it will take me a while to find that book. Thanks again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beh-nam (talk • contribs) 09:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Template:MacTutor
Hi Ruud. It seems our edits crossed each other in some weird way on Template:MacTutor. But everything appears to be okay now. Sorry if I confused you; to be honest, I even confused myself! Cheers, Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, your edit summaries didn't quit match your edits, which confused me the most. —Ruud 14:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Translation
Hello,The writting on the manuscript is not clear (Because of the photo size).However I can read some sentences .Apparently it is a cover of a collection of books for Al-Khawarizmi written by another writer(In classical Arabic which is understandable to most modern Arabs).It says:
 * 1st line:The book of Al-khawarizmi,
 * Kitab Al-Khawarizmi
 * كتاب الخوارزمي.


 * 2nd line:(there is a word I could not understand ,it seems like the word Shapes (أشكال)in Arabic) ;Classification of the respectable shaykh Abu abdullah.
 * Ashkal wa Tasneef Al-Shaykh Al-Ajall Abi Abdillah.
 * أشكال و تصنيف الشيخ الأجل أبي عبدالله


 * 3rd line:Muhammad inb Musa Alkhawarizmi 'May Allah be pleased with him and mercy him".
 * Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khawarizmi ,Radia allah anhu wa athabahu wa rahemah.
 * محمد بن موسى الخوارزمي رضي الله عنه و أثابه و رحمه


 * 4th line (Some Islamic words and terms used as a Preamble )
 * Feehi (....Not sure about this word)Thunubahu wa khatayah alabdu alfaqeer.
 * فيه (لاستر) ذنوبه و خطاياه العبد الفقير


 * 5th line:(The persons perhaps the writer) Khattab ibn Mohammad inb Ali.
 * Ila allah alghani beh, Khattab ibn Mohammad inb Ali.
 * الى الله الغني به ,خطاب بن محمد بن علي


 * 6,7,8,9,10th lines:Ibn Hussain ibn Ali ibn Mohammad ibn Ali ibn Ahmad ibn Jafar ibn Alhussain ibn Yhaya ibn Ibrahim ibn Mohammad ibn Ibrahim ibn Ahmad ibn Almughira ibn Umran ibn Asem Ibn Alwaleed ibn Utbah ibn Rabeyah Ibn Abd-shams ibn Abd Manaf (I think this name means he is (perhaps the writer)from Quraish tribe,the Prophet's Muhammad tribe)
 * بن حسين بن علي بن محمد بن علي بن أحمد بن جعفر بن الحسين بن يحيى بن ابراهيم بن محمد بن ابراهيم بن أحمد بن المغيرة بن عمران بن عاصم بن الوليد بن عتبة بن ربيعة بن عبدشمس بن عبد مناف.


 * 11,12,13th lines:some Islamic terms used as prayer for Al-Khawarizmi's great work.
 * Nafaahu allah bel'elmi wa alamali alsalehayn.
 * Wa hasbuna allah wa ne'ma al-wkeel.
 * نفعه الله بالعلم و العمل الصالحين
 * وحسبنا الله و نعم الوكيل


 * The last 3 lines are not totally clear the only clear part is:
 * Salla allahu alayhi wa Sallam (a phrase that Muslims often say after saying the name of a prophet in Islam.)
 * صلى الله عليه و أله و سلم......


 * The lines at the left hand side ,at the bottom talks about what is the book name or infact the collection of books:
 * 1-Muqaddimat (......Unclear name)
 * Muqaddinat Al......
 * وفيه مقدمة(Unclear name not word).


 * 2-The book of (Correspondence;Not sure about the translation of this word) on Calculation by Completion and Balancing.
 * Kitab Al-Murasala fi Algabri wa almuqabalah
 * وفيه كتاب المراسلة في الجبر و المقابلة


 * 3-The sufficient Introduction on Calculation by Completion and Balancing.
 * Al-Muqaddimah Al-Kafiyah fi Algabri wa Almuqabala.
 * و فيه المقدمة الكافية في الجبر و المقابلة


 * Note:Some Arabic word have more than one meaning,therefore my transltion may not be totally accurate.You can ask another Arabic speaker user to confirm the translation and correct it if any mistakes found.Best regards:)--Aziz1005 14:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

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Problems with the logic programming article
Hi, Ruud. I'm wondering what can be done about the problems with the logic programming article. I thought my suggestion of a separate article on logical programming would solve the problem, but it seems that it might have only exacerbated it. We could revert the logic programming article again, as you did before, but it's not cleat that this would lead to a long-term solution. We could also delete the logical programming article and redirect it to logic programming, as Arthur Rubin did, but this might also just prolong the battle. I guess that you have a lot more experience of these matters than I do. Robert Kowalski 19:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Arabic mathematics
Most of them aren't Arab, why not make things simpler and easier by changing the category to "Islamic mathematics" which is the more common terminology anyways. --Mardavich 23:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If you don’t mind me asking, why did you move the main article in the first place, I see no consensus or request to move the page. "Islamic mathematics" is the more common and appropriate title, the vast majority of these mathematics are not Arab, while only a few of them may not be Muslim. Islamic doesn't necessarily mean Muslim anyways. --Mardavich 23:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If you have any familiarity with the subject you would know the terms are fully equivalent. If you had bothered to read the introduction you would know this term makes no judgement about the ethnicity or religion of the mathematicians who fall under this category. While term Islamic mathematics is used more and more nowadays it is not unquestionably the most common terminology. I made this non-controversial move last month because it is more consistent with the naming of the articles Chinese mathematics, Indian mathematics and because of the pragmatic reason that the article seems to attract less vandalism and other non-sense under this name. —Ruud 17:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

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MediaWiki_talk:Common.css
does this work for you? I'm sitting at an Apple box, and while Firefox seems to cope with the pseudo-classes, it seems to override font selection for Arabic, while Safari appears to be unaware of pseudo-classes, but the explicit font-family: statement works (but, no contextual rendering). dab (𒁳) 14:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * نستعلیق (Nafees Nastaleeq font)
 * نستعلیق (ur)
 * نستعلیق (ar)

Jamshid Kashani
About the literature on Jamshid Kashani, a search on books.google.com shows that "Jamshid Kashani" and "Jamshid al-Kashi" have almost the same frequencies in the relevant English books. A search on the web shows that "Jamshid Kashani" is more common that "Jamshid al-Kashi" (1220 compared to 504). About the macrons, WP:AMOS is the relevant guideline here and it says "A strict transliteration should generally not be used". I should also remind you that saying "The fact that you dare to claim Jamshid Kashani is a more common transcription than Jamshīd al-Kāshī clearly shows you have no familiarity with the literature published on the history of mathematics" is an example of personal attack. Jahangard 18:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you do have familiarity with the subject then why did you dare to "google" this (which obviously gives very skewed results.) I assume you have access to a university library or JSTOR at least? —Ruud 18:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The quote from AMOS refers to the fact that under-dots and half-rings shouldn't be used (because they don't appear correctly to some users.) Diacritics such as macrons are fine. —Ruud 18:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:NAME recommends to use names and spellings which are more common in all English texts (not just a certain collection of Journals). To search over a wide range of books, Google Book Search is the best available tool (which can be easily checked by everyone). About WP:AMOS, it clearly recommends using the standard transliteration (rather than the strict tranliteration) in the title (in that page, standard transliteration refers to the simple transliteration, without macrons). By the way, I should remind you again that comments such as "If you do have familiarity with the subject then why did you dare to ..." are not recommended in Wikipedia. I prefer not to comment about my academic background or yours (you should comment on content, not on the contributor). Jahangard 22:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have every right to questing the method you use make editorial decisions. That is not a personal attacks, so don't use that as an excuse to avoid justifying that method. Even Google Books (the results of which you should also never blindly trust) returns 4 results for "jamshid kasani" and 23 for "jamshid al-kashi". WP:AMOS is controversial, disputed, written by someone with a not so good understanding of the issues of Arabic transcription and transliteration, and certainly not with the usage of biographies on historical mathematicians in mind. For article naming you should not even refer to that page but to Naming conventions (Arabic) instead, which because of the before mentioned reasons was never promoted to guideline. —Ruud 23:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I didnt notice that:) but it could be configuration issue --Aziz1005 19:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Was there any space in that particular edit? can you explain more plz.--Aziz1005 19:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this is because of my computer.Sorry!--Aziz1005 19:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the solutions :) Im using multi-languages computer ,with English version of windows.--Aziz1005 19:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Al-Mu'taman ibn Hud
Hello Ruud, I think the article Al-Mu'taman ibn Hud which you have created is for Yusuf al-Mutamin can you please merge them?.Thanks--Aziz1005 02:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

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al-Jawharī
Do any of your sources mention al-Jawharī's ethnicity? I've been researching this, and he was apparently a Persian from Khorasan , and his article made no mention of his ethnicity before Aziz1005 made this edit. --Mardavich 08:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, let me know if you found a reliable source, I'm looking into it as well. By the way, some anon keeps reverting Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī‎ with false information backed with no sources, is there anyways we can get that page semi-protected? --Mardavich 14:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Your irrelevant warning
Very funny. Edit war with who? where? 1 revert isn't considered edit war. Also mind WP:DTTR. (Arash the Archer 12:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC))
 * Also, (this comment is directed at Ruud Koot, not Arash the Archer) did you notice part of 3rr about a 24 hour period? Fun  pika  19:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I was aware of the rule and didn't violate it. In fact I wasn't even close. I also started the discussion in the talk page. Anyways, I think you are going to reorganize the list chronologicaly.I will try to help when the page is unprotected. Cheers! (Arash the Archer 23:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC))

Delete the others
I was taking images from another wiki and using their copyright tags for the image. Sorry for not searching for them and seeing if the tags were appropriate. Did I provide the info & sources for the Warriors screen shots? Those are the only ones I did not copy from one wiki to another. Thank you for notifying me on this issue. Regards, « razorclaw »  15:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Môge
Would you tell me how I can format my source to appear in the reference section like the other sources? My source is Dr. Laina Farhat-Holzman, writer and historian who formerly taught World History and Islamic Civilization at Golden Gate University in San Francisco, yet Mr. Aziz removed it saying "unacademic source"!?


 * It already appears in the Notes section and really shouldn't be in the Further reading section, so you formatted the reference correctly. Are you sure that the statement (while true) doesn't place undue weight on the number of mathematicians that were Persians? In my opinion it is already stated clearly enough in the previous paragraph that those scientists were of many ethnicities. 18:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Why undo weight? It's a true statement giving due credit to Persians who have contributed the most to Islamic science. Even the Arab scholar Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) has remarked on the fact that "the intellectual sciences were the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture."

something should be mentioned about Persians making up the largest group....... Would you suggest a better wording?

jeez, the page is locked for me now, is it locked for you too? since the dispute was only about the introduction, you should continue your good work on the biographies section........you've done a good job :)

Help needed
Hi I am a Admin in Tamil wikipedia. We are trying to implement NavFrames in our wiki. We copied the style sheet declarations in MediaWiki:Common.css, and JavaScript code in MediaWiki:Common.js. from english Wiki. still the templates are not coming as it in English wiki.Thees are the links for the sheets. ta:மீடியாவிக்கி:Common.js, ta:மீடியாவிக்கி:Common.css. Following is the navigation template I copied from English. ta:வார்ப்புரு:Navigation. can you please look into the technical aspect on this. Sorry for troubling you. Thank you in advance.my talk on Tamil wiki--Terrance 03:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Ruud Koot! thank you for the help in the navigation templates in Tamil wiki. sorry for the trouble. its working fine without the Tnavbar. Thank you again.--Terrance 02:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

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Please fix the Sidebar
Hi, Ruud. As far as I can see, you did your part in modifying the Mediawiki:Sidebar the wrong way. The problem is, now it says «Main page» for all interface languages, e.g. see Main_Page?uselang=es. Instead the page MediaWiki:Mainpage should have been edited, or it's subpages for other languages (e.g. MediaWiki:Mainpage/es, which doesn't exists but the value is taken from Mediawiki software). Please take a look at MediaWiki_talk:Sidebar where Mike Dillon explained this in great detail, cause nobody seems to be interested to do it the correct way now. — Alex Smotrov 15:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. —Ruud 20:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello! Because of this change, the Wikipedia logo (appearing above the sidebar by default) now links to the redirect Main page instead of linking directly to Main Page. Can this be fixed without undoing whatever improvement you made? —David Levy 21:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not unless moving the Main Page to "Main page" is an option. (Note that http://en.wikipedia.org/ now also leads to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_page.) MediaWiki:Mainpage currently has too many functions and should be split into MediaWiki:Mainpage and MediaWiki:Mainpage-url, but that would require some chnages to MediaWiki. —Ruud 21:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Ruud and David, could you guys please take a look at User:Mike Dillon/Sidebar and give your opinion? Aside from the unique issues involving MediaWiki:Mainpage, do the rest of my suggestions seem sound and/or worthwhile? Mike Dillon 22:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject History of Science newsletter : Issue II - May 2007
The May 2007 issue of the WikiProject History of Science newsletter has been published. You're receiving this because you are a participant in the History of Science WikiProject. You may read the newsletter or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Yours in discourse--ragesoss 06:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

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Regarding DRV
No special permission, or a DRV, are required to restart an article which was once merged, especially when the AfD was no consensus and the merge was simply an editorial decision. Of course, the article still must meet general content policies, but that's the case with anything. Not going to give someone advice which isn't true! Of course, if you believe the article still to be problematic after it gets restarted, you can always edit it, or if you believe it's hopeless, ask for further input at WP:3O or WP:RFC as to whether it should stay merged. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like the thread you sent me to was regarding the recreation of Category:Cycles. That category was indeed deleted by XfD, and would require a DRV in order to be recreated (and I strongly doubt any such DRV would result in anything but endorsement). That, however, is simply not the case here. I don't see any particular indication that a sourced article can't be created on that organization. I've never heard of it in my life, but a quick run through Google turns up quite a good few sources, including even a Time article  as far back as 1943. It looks like the previous issue was POV and notability, but with all those sources I can't imagine notability isn't satisfied, and the solution to POV is at WP:SOFIXIT (or if need be WP:DR), not WP:AFD. In short, I cannot find a good reason to tell him not to try and write an article on it, else I would've done so. One editor's behavior does not make an article topic inappropriate. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Already done. :) Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

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George Saliba
Hi Ruud. No, I'm not the George Saliba at Columbia University, though I have the same name. The name George Saliba is pretty common in some parts of the Middle East, like John Smith might be in English. I've actually filed for a name change request so that people don't confuse me with him, though you're the first to notice. :) Cheers. — George Saliba [ talk  ] 20:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

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Kashmir region Thanks!
Hi Ruud, Thanks for fixing the mess on the Kashmir region page! Please also see my talk post here. Regards, Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * PS. I wanted to apologize too for adding to the mess in the first place. I have also apologized on user Jeroenvrp's talk page.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Will take a look at the Islamic mathematics page.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  15:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Carl Hewitt Situations
You may want to look at Suspected sock puppets/CarlHewitt and this WP:BLPN report. Jehochman ☎ / ✔ 18:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Personal life/Intro
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Portal:Personal life/Did you know
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Portal:Personal life/Categories
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Portal:Personal life/Featured picture
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Portal:Personal life/Featured article
fits the criteria for speedy deletion for the following reason: '''G6 (housekeeping). Please delete to allow a pagemove from Template:Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Personal life/Featured article, which is currently located in the wrong namespace.''' --Android Mouse Bot 2 20:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Personal life/Wikiprojects
fits the criteria for speedy deletion for the following reason: '''G6 (housekeeping). Please delete to allow a pagemove from Template:Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Personal life/Wikiprojects, which is currently located in the wrong namespace.''' --Android Mouse Bot 2 20:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

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mwCustomEditButtons
Rudy,

I am interested in implementing your additional edit toolbar options. I have copied the content from the common.js page on mediawiki, but my error console keeps telling me that mwCustomEditButtons is not defined.

Does mwCustomEditButtons need to be added to my localsettings or someplace else?

Thanks,

John Getzke


 * Which version of MediaWiki are you running? The code in MediaWiki:Common.js does little more than filling an array with the information needed to create the buttons. The actual creation is done in http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/wikibits.js. I'm not sure if that code is available in older versions, though. —Ruud 21:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * We are running Mediawiki 1.10 --Jgetzke 17:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

re: al-Beruni
Last time there was one user who said that the Persians weren't called Tajiks until a little later after al-Khwarizimi (which was wrong). In this case, there is not a single use who disputes Beruni being a Persian from Central Asia - a Tajik. You are the only one who disputes this and with all due respect I don't think you are very knowledgable on these two terms. Saying that Beruni was Persian but not Tajik, or Tajik but not Persian is like saying someone is German but not Deutch or Deutch but not German. To you this might be harder to understand, but for anyone who knows the history of Iran and Persian people it is very trivial that the terms "Farsi" or "Parsi" (in English "Persian") for Persians of Central Asia is synonymous with Tajik. Al-Beruni was from Khwarizm which is east of today's Iran and Persians today east of Iran are called Tajiks. If you dispute any of this concact another user with knowledge in Iranian and Persian history. --Behnam 21:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Like I said the difference in this terminology at that time was like the difference between "Deutch" and "German". In English literature, German people are called German, not Deutch. Similarly, in the English literature, Tajik people are called Persians since the term "Tajik" does rarely exists in the English literature. So getting a source that al-Beruni was Tajik is like asking for a source that lets say Walther Flemming (a German) was Deutch. Which is totally ridicoulous since it is trivial that Deutch and German mean the samething! --Behnam 22:38, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but you missed one point. Today German and Deutch is still the exact same meaning. While today, Tajik and Persian are not used interchangebly any longer (though they were during Beruni's time)'. Today, Persian is usually used for Persian in Iran, and Persians east and north of Iran are called Tajik. Beruni was not from modern Iran (he was from Khwarizm), so we call him Tajik as well as Persian. Does it make sense now?


 * Yes, I agree with that. But I disagree that adding the term Tajik beside Persian should be there. I will keep looking for a source. But thanks for your understanding and yes you're right about that. --Behnam 23:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

monobook.js - navframe problem
Hi. i'm alEagle. I would to ask you, when you have time, to take look the monobook.js of my project sq.Wiki (Albania). The problem is that the hide/show toggle-button, in the NavFrames tables/divs, doesn't show. So I pray to you, you see if you can find the problem. When you find the problem you can post the correction (if there is) in my talk page. Please & thank you. Aleagle 01:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Two template related proposals
Hi, I thought you might be interested in --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 11:57, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Promote the use of multilevel templates
 * Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Template test subpage(s)

ISO 15924 templates
Hi. I noticed that you are the creator of Category:ISO 15924 templates and the 115 templates it contains. However, none of the templates seem to have any incoming links/transclusions and consisting only of, where the "X"s represent various letters. Would you please add one or two sentences to the category page to describe the type and/or purpose of the templates it contains? Thanks, Black Falcon (Talk) 05:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 19:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

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Redirect
The page User:Ruud Koot/ is a cross-namespace redirect (in this case from User to Special) and these are not allowed outside of the WP: pseudo-namespace to the Wikipedia: one. Please do not restore this redirect to that state. - M  ask?  23:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's at This section of Wikipedia:Redirects, specifically point 5. As for having it redirect to you instead of a link, it just seemed to make more sense. Your page was at the top of Special:BrokenRedirects at the time, just figured it was a quick fix. - M  ask?  23:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I switched it to a link for you as you suggested, mostly as a small act of contrition and an apology for not coming to your talk first :) - M  ask?

DSB template
Hi there,

I just noticed that you made a template for the Dictionary of Scientific Biography -- nice work! I've been using a pre-filled in version of the encyclopedia template, here -- I have access to a copy of the DSB and am slowly going though it to add citations to the relevant articles.

I'd be happy to start using your DSB template, but I can't figure out how to get all the variables in to make a citation like the one here: Adrien Auzout. I'm not very good with templates, I'm afraid :( Thanks for your help, -- phoebe/ (talk) 23:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Non-free use disputed for Image:The Legend of Prince Valiant (logo).jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:The Legend of Prince Valiant (logo).jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read carefully the instructions at Non-free content and then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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Catherine Saxton
Hi, I created a page about Catherine Saxton, and I think you took it off Wikipedia. I have the copyrights for all of the pictures posted on the page. Can you please restore the page back to Wikipedia and I will update the pictures and correct the copyright information?

Nested collapsible tables fix
I tried to nest collapsible tables on my wiki today, and discovered they didn't work very well. To make nested collapsible tables work smoothly, I've written the following fix:

Replace: function collapseTable( tableIndex ) {    var Button = document.getElementById( "collapseButton" + tableIndex ); var Table = document.getElementById( "collapsibleTable" + tableIndex ); if ( !Table || !Button ) { return false; }    var Rows = Table.getElementsByTagName( "tr" ); if ( Button.firstChild.data == collapseCaption ) { for ( var i = 1; i < Rows.length; i++ ) { Rows[i].style.display = "none"; }        Button.firstChild.data = expandCaption; } else { for ( var i = 1; i < Rows.length; i++ ) { Rows[i].style.display = Rows[0].style.display; }        Button.firstChild.data = collapseCaption; } } by: function collapseTable( tableIndex ) {    var Button = document.getElementById( "collapseButton" + tableIndex ); var Table = document.getElementById( "collapsibleTable" + tableIndex ); if ( !Table || !Button ) { return false; }    var Rows = Table.getElementsByTagName( "tr" ); if ( Button.firstChild.data == collapseCaption ) { for ( var i = 1; i < Rows.length; i++ ) { if(Rows[i].parentNode.parentNode.id == ("collapsibleTable" + tableIndex)) {                Rows[i].style.display = "none"; }        }         Button.firstChild.data = expandCaption; } else { for ( var i = 1; i < Rows.length; i++ ) { if(Rows[i].parentNode.parentNode.id == ("collapsibleTable" + tableIndex)) {                Rows[i].style.display = Rows[0].style.display; }        }         Button.firstChild.data = collapseCaption; } } Thought I'd let you know. --Catrope 16:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:Intricate template
Hi,

I followed your suggestion and made Template test cases. But after implementing it to three templates, I found out that Template:Intricate template already has something in the same direction already. However it assumes an optional "/Test sandbox" subpage. If absent, it falls back to Template:Template sandbox. The name "/Test sandbox" is in contradiction with the guide line. And it has more letters to type, which gives more room for human mistakes. IMHO, I believe "/sandbox" is a better name. Luckily, my dump shows that only three templates that translcudes Template:Intricate template actually make use of this feature. I'm wondering if you can change Template:Intricate template, and then I will redirect these "Test sandbox"es? Thanks. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 05:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

History of astronomy misconceptions
Hi,

I have recently looked for sources supporting and criticizing a number of misconceptions appearing in discussions concerning the History of astronomy. If you know of any sources related to these myths, please add them to the discussion at Talk:History of astronomy. --SteveMcCluskey 20:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

This section was getting so big that I gave it its own page: Talk:History of astronomy/Common misconceptions SteveMcCluskey 23:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

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User talk:The Yeti
I think you might have made a mistake in blocking this guy. He's requesting unblocking; he says that the user you thought he was a sockpuppet of was actually a user he had reverted on several occasions. Mango juice talk 03:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Evidence indicates that The Yeti is definitely not Astroguy2, but there are no results for Science3456 since the last edit is too far in the past. I won't unblock, but will ask you to consider whatever evidence you have related to Science3456 and The Yeti. --After Midnight 0001 04:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Featured picture
I wonder, relatedly, if you might clarify the provenance of the image in order that it might be appropriately listed at Featured pictures/Diagrams, drawings, and maps. You uploaded the image as pd-self but gave the author as Dan Copsey, and I thence gathered that either he released the copyright fully to you or that you edited his work; in either case we would, I suppose, consider you as the author for the purposes of featured picture classification (images are divided as by Wikipedians or by non-Wikipedians). If neither of those is the case (e.g., if the image is simply public domain by virtue of the creator's having so released it), I'll recaption the FP listing to reflect Copsey as the author and you as the uploader, and we might then do well also to have a source link on the image description page. Any light you might be able to shed should be much appreciated. Cheers, Joe 05:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

User talk:The Yeti
Hi, just a quick note to tell you that it seems you forgot to remove the unblock template from the talk page of this user ;). Either that or I am horribly wrong! I'm quite new at unblocking. -- lucasbfr talk 11:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Restoration of Page
An editor has asked for a deletion review of Catherine_Saxton. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article or speedy-deleted it, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Jororo 15:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I am looking to restore my page to wikipedia. I have been working very hard to create my first wikipedia page. Seeing as I have never done this before, I have made a couple of mistakes on the copyright information about my uploaded photos and text in my article. I have all the copyrights to everything I have put up on my article; yet, due to improper citing I have been accused of plagiarsm. I would really like to fix this misunderstanding, but my page keeps getting deleted before I get a chance to and now I see it is protected so I can not even start it again correctly. I have worked very hard to try to get my page up, and it is very frustrating that the reason all of my work has been deleted is due to my lack of experience, and not plagiarism. I have just received permission from wikipedia to use the content of my article on the website. However, I am still facing notability problems and I am not sure as to why. I am not writing an autobiogrpahical entry. I am currently a student at the University of Michigan who is majoring in Comminication Studies. The woman who I am writing this page about is indeed very notable. When looking at the notability guidelines, I see that she without question meets the requirements. In the Public Relations field she has great name recognition and is regarded as an important figure by the peers in the field. Even though she has neither invented any new technology or created a new drug like other people written about in wikipedia, in the field that she is in (the world of publicity and celebrity) she is extremely important. She is published by outside reliable sources, such as NY Magazine, listed as one of the "Who's Who of American Women," and works with extremely important people (such as Presidents, Heads of States, and celebrities). I am not using wikipedia to create importance for anyone nor am I writing an article about myself or doing any other unethical thing that is frowned upon by wikipedia. I am simply trying to write about a fascinating woman who I think is extremely important in the field of Public Relations. I do not know how to impress this upon the editors, but she is a notable woman who deserves an article written about her on wikipedia. Obviously as a first-time user I have made a lot of mistakes, but now that I have been working for a couple of days I have learned more and would really like the chance to finish my article. I'm sorry my lack of experience has led to so many problems but now that I have the correct permission to use my content etc. I would really appreciate the chance to finish my page. Thanks so much for your help and understanding and sorry again. Jororo 15:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Jororo, you don't need a helpme for this. The reader will see the message once he returns. <b style="color:#990066; font-family:georgia;">Miranda</b> 15:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

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Hong Kong Design Centre
This is the Hong Kong Design Centre administration. We are unsure why you have deleted our page we have created to our centre, for we own copyright to our own material?

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Help
Hi I'm Fluence. I've been working for a time now on the Nahuatl Wikipedia on the embetterment of its interface. I've managed to translate almost everything but there are a few things I haven't worked out and I think they're directly related to a CSS or JS file:
 * How to show the tagline on the pages
 * How to make the light blue color appear on non-article pages (like this)
 * How to make the FA, spoken article, etc icons appear at the top
 * How to add the extra buttons on the edit tool bar

Also, I would like to know if there's a way to change the main page, portal, discussion, etc, spacename as they all appear in Spanish (the Nahuatl software comes from the Spanish Wikipedia) so it would appear for example "Calīxatl" as English main page "Main Page" or "Calīxcuātl" as "Portal" (even Wikipedia's project pages) and not as another article. For the time being I found "Common" for CSS and JS as well as "Monobook" and as far as I know, they're the only ones. If you could tell me how to do it I would be very grateful. :)--Fluence 01:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Update. The tagline and icons have showed up but the others are still missing. I'm trying to work it out alone by now. :)--Fluence 01:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Question for you
Hi Rudy! I have a question for you about custom edit buttons. Would it be possible to use these custom edit buttons to substitute the contents of a template into the edit field? This would primarily be used to create buttons to dump pre-made page formats into the edit field, which would allow users to just fill in the information and preserve the pre-made format style. As background for you, the wiki I work on is on my company's internal network, and used by our developers to perform tasks like writing quests and missions for a game. It's disrupting to workflow to have to remind people to copy and paste formatting guides before they design, and I'm running into the issue where people will forget to format the pages properly (making them look messy and non-uniform). If I could provide them with a button that would deposit the formatting of my choice in there (without having to make them remember to use subst: or templates, that would be great. Most folks here are not wiki savvy.

I'm running into the problem that if I try to straight subst: the template into the tagOpen field, it will insert the template's full contents onto the js page. This, in turn, breaks the button. I've tried doing tags in the field, but the button then returns exactly what I typed instead of putting the contents of the template onto the page.

The closest I've gotten to functional has been to write it like this: mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = { "imageFile": "image path", "speedTip": "Insert test template", "tagOpen": "", "sampleText": "subst:Test"} } If I do this, the button will place on the page. If the user saves the page, it functions properly. I was wondering if you knew any way to bypass having to save before editing? Is there any way to make these custom buttons just spit out the contents of a template?

I hope this makes sense :) I'm not the greatest at wording things sometimes. Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated! --Distressa 21:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Trivial note" on COSE page
Hi Ruud -- I had added the "unrelated to SPEC" for a couple of reasons. First, when I wrote this article and went to link to Spec 1170, I discovered that it was a a redir to Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation (which I fixed), so I knew there had already been confusion on WP. Second, and I know this borders on OR, my own experience in the industry is that many people think Spec 1170 and SPEC are somehow related. So the comment is intended to be informative rather than trivial. Would you mind if I restored the line, or would you be able to rv it yourself? Alternatively, is there an edit you can think of that would make it less trivial seeming? Thanks--NapoliRoma 16:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

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IRC cloak request
I am ruudkoot on freenode and I would like the cloak wikipedia/ruud-koot. Thanks. --—Ruud 02:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Invite
Gregbard 07:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

MediaWiki talk:Contact
Please see this talk page. -- Zanimum 14:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

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Snellius
ok, one thing at a time. let's start with the first name. have a look at the image that goes with the snellius article. you'll see "Willebrordus," which makes sense - if one latinizes one's last name, be consistent and latinize one's first name too. next i'll get to the last name. smile. Iterator12n <font color="Blue"> Talk 23:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, sorry I didn't use the move button before. Iterator12n <font color="Blue"> Talk 01:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

You said: "Asking whether his first name was latinized is a bit of a silly question as this name was not the one given to him at birth, but his scientific name, for which he clearly used various different spellings himself." Response: His parents named him Willebrord. Snellius himself seemed to have preferred a latinized name. Then, the various printers at various times may have acted on their own best understanding. His tomb stone in the Pieterskerk in Leiden, with a Dutch text, has "Willebrordus Snellius" as name. I would take that to mean that for posterity, he wanted to be known by that name. (BTW, while Snellius was proficient in latin - he translated works for Stevin etc. - he was also known as a sloppy editor. With the title pages, maybe he didn't care, or maybe he was too busy with other things.  Besides, publishers have a way to sneak their idea of a title page past the author, maybe even change the title.)

You said: "Willebrord Snellius is the name that appears on his marriage certificate (which is probably the closest thing as official as you can get for a name in the 17th century) [...]" Response: I did some research into early 17th century family records. I have a rather simple family name but was surprised by the many ways in which the various recorders could (mis-)spell the name. Whatever else, consistency was not a strong point at that time. Of course, limited literacy etc. may have been contributing factors. Also, family names didn't quite play the role that they do today - Napoleon changed all of that.

You said: "The Dictionary of Scientific Biography (which is usually the most authoritative source on the issue of scientist names) has his entry under Snel, Willebrord." Response: Now we're getting somewhere. I propose to recognize two authorities: the DSB and the Nieuw Nederlandsch Biografisch Woordenboek. I will go to the closest university library that has both (over here not an easy thing for the NNBW) to see what they say. Re. the DSB, I would like to see whether it also has an entry for Snell. Anyway, it will take a few days before I get to it.

My final argument: In the UK and the US, at least some people know of Snell's law. (If I would use "Snellius's law" still fewer people would understand what I was writing or talking about. In the Netherlands, there is a problem the other way around: I say Snell, people would take a few seconds, and then say, Oh, you mean Snellius.)  Anyway, Snell's law is the common expression. In writing, changing that to Snel's law would mean a small but unnecessary irritant in the communication process - as if one is trying to take attention away from the subject at hand.

Iterator12n <font color="Blue"> Talk 05:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Slightly OT: I think the Snellius article is wrong where it asserts that Snellius found the new algorithm for the calculation of π. I think it was his teacher, Van Keulen - vK had 35 decimals of pi put on his tomb stone, also in the Pieterskerk. Iterator12n <font color="Blue"> Talk 05:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Re. the last name: The authorities are clear, it’s Snel, not Snell.  Damned the irritation.  The only question left is, What changed Struik’s mind between 1948 (when the first edition of his A Concise History of Mathematics was issued, with the Snell spelling) and whenever later he wrote the DSB entry?  (Until now, I didn’t know that Struik was the writer of the DSB entry.  If you would have asked me yesterday for a third authority, I would have mentioned Struik.)


 * Re. the first name, the authorities don’t give much support for Willebrordus. However, the last name history shows that authorities may change their mind.  I will mount a campaign for Willebrordus.  Next time in Leiden, I’ll take a picture of Snellius’s tomb stone, post it with the Wikipedia article, and expand a little on the kerfuffle around the Snellius name.  (Maybe I'll get into the "Snell's law" convention even before that.)


 * Last request: Could you post (here or on your website) the bibliographic data for the DSB and NNBW sources – full name, name of chief editor(s), year of publication, name of publisher, ISBN number. Thanks again.


 * Iterator12n <font color="Blue"> Talk 16:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

You said: "In the 1988 revised Dutch edition Struik still calls him Snell. My guess would be that even the greatest historians don't have as much attention for the details when writing a overview instead of an in-depth biography." Response: True. However, the dispute about Snellius's name is nothing new, and Struik must have been aware of it. Besides, Struik was a geometer himself and seemed to have been into the subject of Snellius. Strange. Iterator12n <font color="Blue"> Talk 17:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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References listed twice
Ruud,

I see you undid my changes to IJ (digraph). It may just be a detail, but I just can't see how an article is improved by listing its references twice: once in the section Notes and once in the section References and External links (with almost no distinction between the latter two sections). Especially when it concerns specific lemmas or pages in larger works (Van Dale, Winkler Prince, Taalunieversum site, etc.) Is this some Wikipedia convention, style rule or policy I am unaware of? Can you explain the rationale of this?

– Adhemar 21:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * References are references, notes are footnotes. I suspect that when the article is properly references that their will be multiple to footnotes to the same reference. —Ruud 00:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I could understand keeping notes and references separate if there are any real footnotes, clarifying technical points. But there aren’t any footnotes. The references listed under Notes aren’t really footnotes, they’re references to the works used as sources. – Adhemar 10:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And multiple references to the same work do not pose any problem, nor does it warrant listing the references a second time under a different header. The Wiki software handles this very elegantly with letters in the references generated by . See how it is done in today’s featured article %C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre and countless other well-referenced articles. – Adhemar 10:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, this doesn't allow you to specify different page numbers per citation and is quite difficult to maintain. See for example Charles Darwin for how it's done properly. —Ruud 16:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That example clarifies things. With the example, you’ve also proved that the normal way of doing references (%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre) isn’t the only one used on Wikipedia. You’re actually right: Once an article makes (numerous) citations on different pages to the same work, double referencing actually could make sense. In that case, it should be done right (as in Charles Darwin):
 * to author (+ year if multiple publications of same author) under section Citations, author is hyperlinked
 * to a lemma under section References which contains the details (such as title, publisher, etc.)
 * But we still should choose one method (single references) or the other (Darwin-article-like). Not some half-baked compromise between the two (as now with IJ (digraph)). It seems to me the only sensible criterion for that choice is the number of citations to a single source with some difference (such as different page numbers).
 * – Adhemar 18:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Cite conference
Can you please explain why cite conference has both a conference and booktitle parameter? Also we need some real examples. See Template_talk:Cite_conference. — Omegatron 02:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

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About Navbox collapsible in vi.wiki
Hi, I'm from vi.wiki community (user's page there vi:Thành viên:Vinhtantran). Our wiki hasn't implemented collapsible function successfully. We have vi:Metawiki:Common.css for Navbox and vi:Metawiki:Common.js for collapseTable. But it doesn't work. (You can check it from one of our navigation box template vi:Tiêu bản:Thử). Could you take a look and give us some advices? Vinhtantran 04:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We did it! Thank you very much. Vinhtantran 02:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

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Template:Armn
--MZMcBride 04:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Ruud Koot/
I accidentially stumbled on the discussion above; wouldn't   be a better choice for what (I think) you wanted? By the way, thanks for the idea in general (transcluding special pages) ∴ Alex Smotrov 04:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes it would. Thanks. Note that not all special pages can be transcluded, though. —Ruud 13:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Template:Arab
--MZMcBride 05:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the dual posts; I didn't realize that this template was related to the one above because this one had been cleared in January. I've been trying to clean out the unused templates, of which they are about 25,000. While I hate to see hard work go to waste, in over seven months, none of the ISO 15924 templates have been used.... I think I'm going to go ahead and delete them today, along with the category. Cheers. --MZMcBride 19:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Rgveda Dating Controversy
You did well to warn WIN about civility &c, but forgot to send the same to DAB, who has used more abuses for others than any other editor. See Talk:Utpala where he abused me without any provocation. See Talk:Rgveda (esp. Give a balanced account of Rgvedic dating), where instead of answering any of the points raised by me about his edits, he labelled fictious charges against me. Is Wikipedia his personal property ? Differences must happen in democracies, but DAB does not tolerate dissension and starts abusing even his elders. My students are heads of departments but I can remain in Wiki only if I try to get accustomed to abuses. You should be impartial ; if you warned WIN, you should warn DAB too. --Vinay Jha 21:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Category:ISO 15924 templates
In case you didn't notice, the category was deleted, following deletion of all the templates in the category. I have no opinion as to whether these deletions were appropriate or not, but thought you should be aware of this. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 23:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

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Hide/show
Hi Ruud Koot. Since you are the maintainer of the hide/show javascript code, for your information there is now a discussion about that at Template_talk:Navbox and a request at MediaWiki_talk:Common.js. --David Göthberg 13:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

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WikiProject History of Science newsletter : Issue III - September 2007
The September 2007 issue of the WikiProject History of Science newsletter has been published. You're receiving this because you are a participant in the History of Science WikiProject. You may read the newsletter or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Yours in discourse--ragesoss 01:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

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Template:Parallel Computing
You recently changed Template:Parallel Computing to use a standard CSS class navbox-collapsible. While I think it's great to standardize navbox templates, your change made all the text be center justified which I think looks really bad. Can you please fix the template to make everything left-justified again, or if you don't know how, please revert your change. Thanks. <font color="#00F">&mdash;dgies tc 15:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

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TfD nomination of Template:V for Vendetta
Template:V for Vendetta has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Maccy69 18:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Arabic)‎
Hello. I stumbled into this issue accidentally, but I'm trying to stir up some change. I saw you advocated ʿ and ʾ before; do you think their time may have come nearer, and do you care to comment? Wareh 04:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Haham hanuka
Hello Ruud! I need your expertise at Suspected sock puppets/Haham Hanuka. Thank you for any feedback! Regards, gidonb 14:24, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: RD header
Nah, your first edit was January 2005 but I trace that link back to almost exactly one year before you joined. -- ⁪ffroth 23:24, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

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Thanks Ruud
For blocking me. You're a swell guy.Likebox 19:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Did I attack anybody personally? I am sorry. Where did I do it? I will delete the comments.Likebox 21:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

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History of Logic Programming
Dear Ruud,

Have you seen the History of Logic Programming article created by user Tressider? This article contains most of the material removed earlier this year from the Logic Programming article after a long and painful series of edits, revisions and reversions. Tressider also created around the same time new articles on History of denotational semantics and History of Power Domains, all with a Hewitt bias. All substantial edits to the History of LP article have subsequently been made anonymously.

The History article contains a lot of interesting and useful material, but it is heavily biased. I have discussed this with a number of my colleagues in the Association of Logic Programming; but no one, myself included, wants to get involved in a new editing war.

There is a place for a scholarly article on the history of LP, updating the one I wrote and published in CACM in 1988. Or even for an article focussing on Hewitt's view of history, refereed according to normal academic conventions and standards. However, I do not see how such an article can be created using wikipedia. Do you have any suggestions? Robert Kowalski 10:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The correct links are history of logic programming, history of denotational semantics and history of power domains (without capitals). I didn't look into it carefully and this is not my field, but it does look like what I remember from Carl Hewitt's articles. I think they should be deleted per the ArbCom ruling but I'd prefer you (Ruud) to have a look at it first. I also left a message on CSTAR's talk page.
 * I fear Robert is right that it will be very difficult to create articles on the history of LP. We need either a lot of people involved or give up the right to anonymity. The first seems hard to achieve in practice, the latter may not be possible on Wikipedia (but you could try others sites like Citizendium). -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 17:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * At Jitse's request I looked briefly at history of logic programming. The article really seems heavily biased particularly when addressing the issues it tags as controversial.  It seems to me that there is currently no reliable mechanism within wikipedia to discuss possible controversies of this kind.  Is there a more recent ArbCom ruling on Hewitt's latest activities on Wikipedia that I should look at?--CSTAR 19:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The only new development is the post-case clarification at Requests for arbitration/Carl Hewitt. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry to come in late here. Regarding history of denotational semantics and history of power domains (I haven't looked much at history of logic programming), I think Hewitt (Tressider, whoever) made the pages using material that I removed from the pages on denotational semantics and power domains. I removed the material because there was too much detail about old niche areas for the main articles, giving them a bias. I discussed it with Hewitt quite a bit on the talk pages, and I think he agreed with my edits.


 * It's understandable that Hewitt was sorry to see a large body of text he had written disappear. But the "history" articles now don't provide a history of anything; they're nothing but a dump of Hewitt's text. Possibly they should be moved into sand boxes, would that be appropriate? At some point in the future, someone might genuinely want to write these "history" articles, but that hasn't happened yet. Sam Staton (talk) 12:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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Show/hide watchlist
Would you have any objection to me updating the show/hide watchlist code in MediaWiki:Common.js to be able to "reset" itself when needed. That is, if a message is already in MediaWiki:Watchlist-details and then more information is added, it would be possible to reset the show/hide for everyone, allowing those who have already hidden the message to see the new message. Thoughts? --MZMcBride (talk) 05:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and updated the code in MediaWiki:Common.js, however it doesn't seem to work entirely correctly. It would be great if a separate [dismiss] button could be shown for each message... Any help would be very appreciated. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

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Template:Electromagnetism3
Hi Ruud, I recently created a new electromagnetism template using NavFrames, however the show/hide links overlap with the titles when the browser text-size is increased. Someone created an alternative version on the talk page using collapsible tables, however it has so far proved impossible to centrally align the titles for each expandable list. You are listed at Collapsible tables as the "active maintainer" of the code behind the tables; do you have any thoughts on how the formatting can be adjusted to match the current NavFrame version? Thanks. --DJIndica (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Contents pages
Howdy. You may like to take a look at Wikipedia talk:Contents, and contribute to the long and current discussion about the names of those contents/portals. Thanks :) -- Quiddity (talk) 03:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you think about moving Quick index to portal namespace too? That way we can add that, and the categorical index, back to Contents pages (header bar). (possibly also Outline of Roget's Thesaurus to portalspace, for the footer nav box?) See this edit and this edit for context of when they were removed. Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Renaming Quick index to Portal:Contents/Quick index would return it to the set.  The Transhumanist 18:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

List of Canisius College people
Hi, I noticed you suggested to merge the List of Canisius College people into Canisius College. Wanna put your rationale into the merge discussion? --Cjs56 (talk) 19:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Tajik source
Hi. Months ago you understood and agreed that these persons were Tajiks. If you forget, I'll just ask you... what happened to the Persians in Central Asia? Did they just vanish? No, today they are just known as Tajiks. So you asked for a source and I provided a source and now you're asking for the page number. This is quite a hassle, because it took me a while to find this book and now I have to and get it again and borrow it again to find the page numbers. -- Behnam (talk) 23:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

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History of logic programming
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article History of logic programming, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you agree with the deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add db-author to the top of History of logic programming. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

New categories
Hi. Just wanted to drop by to say, I like your work in creating in Category:Contents. We definitely needed that. it fulfils a vital functional need. i've been making some edits, changes and linkings today which i think hopefully augments and is helpful to your work. Hope you find it constructive. feel free to let me know what you think, and any comments. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

1969-70 St. Louis Blues season
Hello. Just so you know, I am redoing the article. Several of us in Wiki Project Ice Hockey are trying to do the season articles for every team. I have now put the article as undergoing construction and I am trying to add more relevant information. Maple Leaf 00:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Moving contents pages
Your idea to keep the set of contents pages together in the same namespace was a good one. Now that you've moved Contents to Portal:Contents, the other pages in the set can be moved to subpages of their mother page.

Please move Portal:Portals to Portal:Contents/Portals, and Portal:Categorical index to Portal:Contents/Categorical index. I've already moved the others, but couldn't move these because they are move-protected.

The Transhumanist 17:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

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Your move of Featured list
Could you please point out the discussion where this move was approved by consensus? -- Scorpion0422 03:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The way I see it is that a move like that needs 100% consensus, so I'm undoing your move for the time being. -- Scorpion0422 03:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You really should have added a post about your proposed move on all of the featured content talk pages. You can't just make a post on a page (especially when it concerns dozens of pages) that not a lot of people have on watch, then assume that's a consensus. I hadn't even heard of the move until tonight. -- Scorpion0422 03:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

tables of contents
re: ''Why are you moving TOCs to the right. This a controversial and discourged practice in the first place (see Template:TOCright) and I really don't see any reason to do it here where significantly decreases the usability and appearance. —Ruud 03:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)''


 * It cleans up the appearance and makes the text flow naturally Which conforms to the WP:MOS desire for the TOC up high and visible, but to not sandwich (funnel) text between a left and a right floating element. This doesn't, it keeps the text left and natural to read.


 * Moreover, your understanding of the 'discouraged' practice is a bit off. There were technical reasons as well. The real problem behind the 'discouragement' was that the right margin was already over busy and populated by elements the community found desirable, such as the endless plethora of infoboxes. Haven't a clue to why you referred me to TOCright... that would misbehave and go UNDER the images, or force it's way over top of same. OIC! You're looking at the para about controversial, most of which I wrote when this and that shared the documentation page. I'll fix that... thanks! Good loose end to catch. I owe you one for that!


 * Hope that answers your question... do you have any idea how unpleasant your post comes across? You might try taking a look at the links for the template... it's long past experimental. Here, try some TOCnestright. Cheers! // Fra nkB 03:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * [[Image:tocnestright.png|thumb]] I strongly disagree with the statement that it "cleans up the appearance". This might possible be accidentally true on your combination of browsers, font, font size, skin and resolution but it certainly doesn't do here. As you can see on the screenshot to the right, it bunches up the TOC with the images on the right, which looks horrible, as well as causing a few other display glitches. Secondly, it breaks usabilty. On 2 000 00+ aricles the TOC is positioned on the left and people expect it there, so it should only be moved if there is a very compelling reason to do so. In this case there doesn't seem to be as the article looks perfectly fine with the standard TOC. Thirdly, it introduces a lot of extra 'stuff' in the wikicode which is very newbie unfriendly and again is not worth the tradeoff for something which would at best cause a minor visual improvement.


 * Sorry if I come of somewhat harsh, eloquently wording myself is harder for a non-native speaker and is generally not my preferred style of discussion. I like to reason based on arguments and leave all the politeness for small talk :) —Ruud 12:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You know, I think you're the first to complain on this since back in the spring! Quite interested to hear: "As you can see on the screenshot to the right, it bunches up the TOC with the images on the right, which looks horrible"... for that confirms you are getting what is desired... "bunching up the TOC with the images on the right" is precisely the designed effect that was sought for and desired, so I certainly have no problem with THAT ASPECT!!! + IMHO, TOC's that interrupt the text flow, and create gobs and sometimes screens of what I call "Ugly white space" is a problem on circa one of two million wikipages... and this is the solution... particularly on those historio-political articles where the TOC is lengthy and a large infobox is also present. Having said that, ''I'll give you this: The template is not necessary on that page, for the TOC is short and causes only a few tens of lines of ugly whitespace to the right. So my editorial judgement and preferences weighed against yours... how wiki!!!


 * TOCleft has a similar 'fan club' to your opinion of ugly... but for that, the MOS is clear&mdash;at least as far as WP:FAC is concerned, structures with text squeezed between two floating HTML box elements of any kind is discouraged. This is a means of getting around that limitation, AND eliminating the whitespace others of us find objectionable. More to the point perhaps, at least on longer articles, is the MOS guidelines on introductions... which are supposed to recap the content of a page in synopses form.


 * MOST problems with applying the template occur on articles where that guideline is not well implemented&mdash;that is on pages where the introduction is too short... for it can then overlap a "next right floating element" like the next image, next infobox or template... or whatever that may be. Ditto pages like Data_storage_device with multiple high placed images. (Early problems with the template ran into that squarely on MILT HIST pages, where the intro/synopsis is "fashionably short" for the campaign infoboxes are located right under the longer battle infoboxes, and the rendering on a number of browers kicked the TOC offset to the lower left corner of the second (lower) element... creating a large whitespace shadow along the right margin. Not good, and THAT I agree was fairly ugly. <G> The other common problem was with infoboxes on steroids... those which were very wide and the designers didn't take into account that their zoom settings are not universally admired by those of us needing large fonts to read comfortably... you young folks have no idea of the pain and anguish your fourth decade will give you in sight issues! Hopefully someone in genetic research will come up with a way to prevent hardening of the cornea (?)... whatever, things go to hell somewhere visually between 40-50 years. No exceptions! In any event, I raised the awareness of that problem, and such fat infoboxes have gone on a diet since. If not, they've been given width controlling options, so someone who does look at zoom in/zoom out effects like me can strike a balance.


 * All that aside, will be quite interested to hear details on: "causing a few other display glitches". and "Secondly, it breaks usabilty."


 * Do please elaborate on those!Inasmuch as it's appeared on FA pages, been discussed some on the village pump, with Milt History Project and ArbCom members... etc. etc. ad nauseum... and is satisfying a fair number of pages now, technical issues as these are and would be of great concern. If you don't like the appearance, consult with other editors on the page and discuss going back to the default TOC. Shrug... your "right", so to speak. But "dismissing it" as not being a MOS compliant alternative method is long past the time the horse left the barn. Technical glitches are of course very interesting, so lay them on me ASAP.


 * Insofar as that particular article is concerned, imho, the whole right side "train of images" probably ought to be resized and put into a FixHTML block so it doesn't cause so much ugly right margin jag... but not my watch... I went there solely sorting out and managing a merge proposal. BTW--are you a reader, and if so, are you familiar with and ? If not, try this as payment for your pain. (Just don't start it before you should be studying... you might not get to the studies!)  Cheers! // 13:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

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Should be on talk pages?
Hi!

Would you please look at Category:Categories requiring diffusion? As you may see, it contains several hundred (515, right now) categories marked by the diffusion note, and one (1) category talk page with the same demand, namely Category talk:Lists. You moved from Category:Lists to Category talk:Lists a couple of weeks ago. Are you planning to move all notes to category talk pages? I personally don't think that that would be a good idea; people should note that these categories mainly are not intended for articles but for subcategories as soon as they view the category; hopefully thus abstaining from adding another article, in the first place; or becoming induced to help recategorise such articles, in the second.

Best regards, JoergenB (talk) 03:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You have not commented this, whence I suppose you don't mind me moving the displacement note back to the category. Best,--JoergenB (talk) 18:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Tocnestright.png)
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If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 20:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

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