User talk:SMcCandlish/Archive 96

=November 2014=

Please comment on Talk:Punjabi language
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November 2014
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 * Damnonia is sometimes encountered, but was also used for the land of the Damnonii later the Kingdom of Strathclyde, in what is today southern Scotland.

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics
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Edit-warring
Please avoid edit-warring, as you did at Apulo-Calabrese. If your addition to an article is reverted, do not make the sam edit again, but instead take the matter to the talk-page of the article. Persistent edit-warring can lead to being blocked from editing. The relevant part of the infobox documentation in this particular case is "use if more than one". Would you be kind enough to self-revert your incompetent edit? Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You seem to be confused. There  more than one. The only difference between my version and the previous version was addition of one (maybe two, I forget) altnames, and using what I thought was a more readable vertical layout, which I've since put back to the original horizontal. I also have to note that your accusation of incompetence is unnecessarily WP:BATTLEGROUNDing and arguably constitutes a personal attack.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  13:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, definite over-reaction on my part there, sorry about that. Doesn't excuse the edit-warring, of course. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:32, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * False charge. Undoing a revert that was predicated on the other party's mistake, after I've explained why it was that party's mistake (not to mention self-reverting the stylistic, non-content aspects of the change I made in an effort to mollify said party, whose objection didn't actually make sense even after reviewing the documentation it was demanded that I review!) is not "edit-warring". If it were, every single good-faith edit on WP could be filibustered by reverting with a nonsensical "reason" that wasn't applicable (even without adding incivil accusations of incompetence that hoist the reverter with his own petard; those are optional). You're not one to lecture about not using reverts to get your way, since you do it often, and in this case you reverted me to begin with, and reactively, without getting your facts right or examining the content. It's not magically righteous when you revert for no defensible reason, but somehow edit-warring when someone half-reverts you, with a real rationale. I think this is also a good opportunity to observe two other things. One is that if you're reacting to someone else's efforts with an instant urge to undo them for personal-dispute reasons (or to anyone at all's efforts because they affect something you feel proprietary about but which doesn't really belong to you), but cannot take the time to look more objectively at what they're doing, and ask if uncertain, it's time to walk away and stop interacting with that person (or trying to control that resource), whether that be on Wikipedia, at work, or whatever. It's a general life principle, regarding being too emotionally invested to engage rationally.  Cf. your pointless procedural challenges at RM today in this light.  Secondly, pseudo-apologies that take the basic form "Sorry I did X, but you did Y" are passive-aggressive antagonism and backside-covering, do not go over well, and simply reveal an intent, conscious or otherwise, to escalate and play a blame-game. They are therefore best avoided.  I don't accept hand-shakes or back-pats that also come with attempts to hit me in the gut.  I was happy just quietly not engaging with you for a month or so. I imagine you were, too.  Let's go back to that.  That also means no longer using your talk page as an anti-SMcCandlish webboard with your buddies, which violates several policies, beginning with WP:NOT and WP:NPA.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  18:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Goats

 * I have moved the goat move discussion back to Requested moves/Technical requests. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You da boss.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:58, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, the big one is still open at Talk:Aspromonte (goat).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  17:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Your uncontroversial move requests at WP:RM
Hi, I saw your uncontroversial goat breed move requests at WP:RM. Shouldn't you be able to do these yourself? I decided to see if I could move one, and I was able to move the article over the redirect. (I just moved one, as I'm not really in the mood to do all of them, but anyway...) -- Biblio worm 22:25, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In theory, yes. In reality, I have a couple of contributions-stalkers who, for personality-based reasons, contest moves I make myself, and who throw a huge, attacking/incivil fit about it, even going to ANI to try to get me move-banned (successfully once, for three months, and without success twice). See the contested section at RM today for some examples of the kind of heat and disruption generated, filing angry contestations against my moves, even though they are pretty much certain to proceed anyway, because the policies, RM precedents, sources, and other facts are all on my side.  I have enough non-fans that it's more trouble than it's worth to attempt to move pages myself other than things like sandboxed templates and drafts of things no one else has edited, so I use RM to do it with real articles. I was move-banned at ANI for moves that eventually were upheld by consensus, because my rationales for making them were correct, only my moving them without discussion was an issue.  I avoid taking the current antagonism matter to WP:ANI myself to "punish" those engaging in it, because I don't come here for WP:DRAMA.  I'm trying to de-escalate with these people (I'd totally ignored and avoided them for a month, and two or so months before that, I quit Wikipedia for a month just to get away from them). Failing that, I guess I'll simply let them hang themselves in public with their constant, unjustifiable antagonism.  In the mean time, I'll keep using RM procedures.  If they want to contest RM-performed moves, it generates, and I'm good at and patient with process. My theory is they'll eventually tire of their game and knock it off. The vast majority of moves I propose proceed precisely as I propose them, no matter how I propose or perform them (I have a >95% success rate at RM in its various forms), and even when they don't, it's usually a minor variation of what I proposed. It's also an interesting open question to me what constitutes "controversial" or "potentially controversial" vs "noncontroversial" and "technical".  My view is that moves that clearly comply with policy and recent consistent precedent, without raising any issues unique to the article/name in question, are by definition non-controversial. Someone being sore about having failed to carry the day in a previous RM doesn't make later moves predicated on the RM decision "controversial", no matter how loud and angry they are, or every possible move would always be potentially controversial, and every consensus would be dubious. It's also obvious to me that, absent a WP:ARBCOM ruling saying so, no particular general topic area is automatically controversial with regard to article titles, nor are moves by any particular editor. I also hold that one or two editors filing constestations of moves for personality-based reasons does not actually constitute "controversy", but WP:GAMING the system.  Disputes afoot right now will help prove some of these hypotheses in short order, I think.  PS: As a consequence of all this drama, I generally do not bother to check whether a redirect can be moved-over without admin assistance, since I won't move it myself anyway. (I moved two yesterday myself just to see if I'd be jumped-on for it, and I was, despite there being at least 6 solid rationales for the clearly non-controversial moves.) I so frequently edit redirects to add the proper   redir-categorization templates that many redirs I might have moved over have already been edited by me at some point, anyway, especially in animal breed articles. It was kind of a fluke that they weren't in the recent goats cases.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  23:16, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Blocked
You were recently topic-banned for several months from making page moves. Only days after this restriction expires, you are back to precisely the same pattern of behaviour that caused that ban half a year ago: initiating mass moves that you know will be contentious, in exactly the same kinds of cases that were the focus of criticism earlier; misuse of the "uncontroversial moves" section at RM for such proposals, including in at least one case the filing of a move request as "uncontroversial" when it had been rejected by an explicit RM on the article's talkpage just days earlier (an RM that you yourself initiated, so you were clearly aware of it); drowning follow-up discussion with aggressive and overly wordy postings; and the continued general display of battleground attitude that has been characteristic of your conduct in this field for long. This is unacceptable: if you get a community sanction, n matter whether it has run out or not, it means the community expects you to actually modify your behaviour. You clearly didn't.

I have therefore blocked you, for an initial period of 3 days. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:32, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Concurrent discussion
That was a clean block log.

I am looking through SMcM's edit history for the controversial edit, and I'm just not seeing it. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of species titles being moved. Maybe whoever responds to this can clear that up with the blocking admin. —Neotarf (talk) 14:18, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * And they're being moved by standard RM processes, with the results following WP:NATURAL (when that's the relevant issue) and/or WP:NCCAPS/MOS:CAPS/MOS:LIFE (when that's the issue) in, precisely as I proposed them, with RM after RM coming to a consensus the positions taken by Jlan.  There is no controversial edit by me here. (As I've shown above, the one the blocking admin thinks is some kind of smoking gun is a clear error on his part, of not checking the facts before leaping to conclusions). The blocking admin is treating my 3-month move restriction as if it had been permanent, interpreting personal antagonism and tendentiousness by Jlan against months of consensus building by legitimate RM discussions, as if Jlan's system-gaming were a legitimate controversy I've somehow "disrupted", treating any move by me and me alone as if it were automatically controversial, and falsely labeling as "battlegrounding" me simply showing that the opposing editor is forum-shopping.  It's completely baseless.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  15:25, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Protonk Just so you know, the three-month move ban you imposed is now being abused as if it were a permanent ban. I'm being blocked for making two moves that were clearly justified after several months of multi-page RMs concluded in favor of precisely the same kind of move in the same topic area, and after strictly using RM processes even after the move ban expired, because they were having good results.  I chose two not-possibly-controversial cases to move manually, as a trial balloon to see if JLan and Montanabw would accept that consensus has moved beyond the name styling they prefer or would start drama over it, and they went on the offensive.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  15:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Anthony Appleyard I note at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves that you are not buying Jlan's forum-shopping, and recognize that the RMs have in fact being going against his wishes, both in cases where I've requested the moves and when where he's requested counter-moves. I'm skeptical that you'd see this punitive, one-sided block as justifiable, even if you're in the camp who find me irritating.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  15:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * This block fails WP:Blocking policy in multiple ways. Right off the bat, it fails the first two major criteria: "Blocks should not be punitive", and "Blocks should be preventative."  Everything about this is punitive, and there's isn't anything legitimate it could be preventing, since all that was happening was a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves in which I have little further to say anyway.  I certainly was not mass-moving articles, and the only two articles I did move were done so with solid rationales, were easily challenged and have a discussion open about them, and I'll bet good money they'll go the way I proposed, since months of similar RMs have also. There's nothing disruptive about that, it's standard operating procedure.  Under "Blocks should not be punitive", it fails points 1, 3 and 4, at least.  Under the longer list of criteria below these two main points, it fails "Protection", as it doesn't qualify under any of the bullet points enumerated there (if anything, the first one, "persistent personal attacks" applies to the other side of the dispute, especially Montanabw, who engaged in more of them in that very discussion dispite administrative warnings to not do so, yet here I'm the one blocked). "Disruption" doesn't fit (except, again, points 2, 3 and [in relation to edits elsewhere] 5 describe the behavior of Montanabw and to a lesser extent Jlan toward me), and the others simply aren't applicable, though Future Perfect at Sunrise appears to be attempting "Enforcing bans" after a ban has expired. "When blocking may not be used" has three directives. "Conflicts and involvement": I don't see that Fut. Per. is "involved" (though clearly favors one side of the dispute against the other, so this section might as well apply). "Cool-down blocks" appears to cover precisely what this block was imposed for. "Recording in the block log" seems also likely; many have resented the fact that I have had a clean block log for 9 years or so despite being a stubborn curmudgeon. "The practice, typically involving very short blocks, is often seen as punitive and humiliating."  That's a perfect description of this block.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:47, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It is so, so sad to see your account destroyed like this, especially since you are using your real name. —Neotarf (talk) 22:34, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not that worried about it. As I understand block-challenging procedures, I can seek to have the false accusation at least removed from the block log via WP:AN as soon as the block expires. My main concern was that the usual suspects would use my temporary absence to even further forum shop against the recent RMs' concensus, but all the admins at WT:RM pretty much shut them down on that effort, one right after another, because their actions in that regard that I was allegedly "disrupting" weren't legitimate. This block is serving no purpose other than a petty personal punishment.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:13, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * If you find out how to have a false block removed from a block log, let me know. My understanding is once there is anything at all in your block log, the abusive admins don't bother to read it, they just use it as an excuse to pile on more blocks. Plus they will take every opportunity use it against you in content disputes. And don't bother to run for admin, that's the first qualification you need there.
 * At this point it would be better if the blocking admin realized there were no diffs to support the block and was willing to say so. —Neotarf (talk) 12:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI; I just noticed this situation. Dekimasu よ! 05:43, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I agree with your comments there that the dispute per se is counterproductive, which is why I've twice taken month-long, self-imposed breaks from it, to get away from the other two major participants, one of whom, Montanabw, explicitly stated she was taking a position she didn't even believe in but against me for purely personal reasons [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATeeswater_sheep&diff=626187054&oldid=626121134], the very definition of battlegrounding. This is one of the most blatantly one-sided administrative interventions I've ever seen, especially given that Montanabw shamelessly personally attacked me (after repeated administrative warnings to stop) as being someone in need of psychiatric "meds", in the very same discussion I was blocked for. That was simply a refutation (albeit not a very concise one) of Jlan's misrepresentations, and an observation that he was clearly forum shopping, which I think all the other admins in that discussion realized, which is why they turned his requests down three times in a row and directed him back to RM procedure and consensus.  I made no allusions of any kind about anyone's character or motivations, only the observable editing patterns and the logic flaws in their rationale. The purpose of it was to short-circuit their tendentious disruption of RM processes, exactly what  been blocked for. It's like filing a police report and getting shot in the face for it.  The thing is, I have nearly zero faith this behavior isn't going to continue (if any thing, this bogus block with probably embolden more of the same and worse).  It's not limited to this RM stuff, but a general pattern of trying to blockade me me from editing animal breed articles.  Montanabw has voiced the opinion that whoever shouts longest and loudest wins, and I think that says a lot about this WP:FACTION strategy.  I'm not really sure what to do about it.  It's not right to concede that they simply WP:OWN the domestic animal article sphere for the next decade, but this is where we're being herded (pun intended), now by baseless administrative sanctions.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for November 8
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Template talk:Engvar
That sounds good, including overwriting the sandbox; I was just using it to demo the code I think would work, but if you have an overhaul in mind it will probably make those tweaks obsolete. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:25, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok. Development may take some time. I'd like to see that template used more often. Keep an eye on it. -DePiep (talk) 16:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Right-o. I long for the day when tools can be used with user Javascript to auto-show articles in whatever English variety a user wants and we can stop forcing articles to be written in one Eng. var. or another on the dubious criterion of "first major contributor".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:53, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * OK. new version is in the Engvar/sandbox & Engvar/testcases page right now, the documentation is being overhauled. Please take a look (these are the right ISO codes, I hope?). -DePiep (talk) 10:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Replying at template talk page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Arius
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 * I'm not that familiar with the Wikipedia editing process. I put in the RFC, based on the info I read in the "Dispute Resolution" article, which says that, "Request for comment (RfC) is a process to request community-wide input on article content. RfCs can be used when there is a content-related dispute, or simply to get input from other editors before making a change."  The dispute that I put in a RFC for is "content-related" (i guess).  Under the article for RFC it says that, "Requests for comment (RfC) is an informal process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines, article content, or user conduct..."  I'm not sure where you get the idea that RFCs are for "editorial not content-factual matters."  This seems to directly contradict the section on RFCs in the "Dispute Resolution" article and on the RFC article (unless there is a difference between "content-factual matters" (as you say) and a "content-related" dispute or a "content dispute" (as in the "dispute resolution" article and RFC articles, respectively).  Anyhow, my problem is that I was unable to edit the page (without my edits being immediately reverted), despite my citations of peer reviewed sources.  Any suggestions as to how/where I can address this issue if an RFC is not an appropriate means (with some reference as to WHY it is inappropriate given what the various articles I have quoted say with respect to RFCs) would be much appreciated.  Thanks for any help or suggestions you can give.Ocyril (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I wrote imprecisely. RFCs are not for Wikipedians to engage in their own process of consensus ; that's original research.  When RFCs are about content they're about whether the content is relevant, whether it accurately reports what the reliable sources say, whether it is citing actually reliable sources, etc.  What you have at that article is sources disagreeing, and the solution to that is to note in the article that sources disagree, and how, not try to come to some kind of wiki-tribunal decisions as to what the facts are.  Only external sources can tell us what the facts are.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:08, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responding. I understand and agree with what you are saying about the purpose of an RFC.  I think the article should reflect what the sources say, and the relative value of those sources.  How is the RFC "invalid"?  The article currently does not reflect disagreement in the sources and I am citing sources that cannot be left out of the article.  Please look at the edits and discussion if you have a chance, thanks.Ocyril (talk) 00:14, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Boletus edulis
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Please comment on Talk:Ukraine
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Please comment on Talk:Light bulb (disambiguation)
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Please comment on Talk:Electronic cigarette
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Your Recent Edits to Template:RMassist
Hi, I have reverted your recent edits to Template:RMassist because it broke the processing of. I can't produce a testcase right now as there are inclusion guards that limit the inclusion of the template on a certain article, but using  (without the space between the first two braces) always produced "Please put your reason for moving here." Just wanted to let you know. Thanks, Timothy G. from CA (talk) 04:28, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll take your word for it. I'll try to look into what the problem was soon-ish. PS: you can give source code of a template with parameters with . Code:  .  Result: . Your space trick is "unsafe", because the trailing   will prematurely close any container template (e.g. ) put around the content.  Another way to do it, without a template link, is  . Hope that helps.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:01, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's been a while since I last needed to reference a MediaWiki template and I'm a little bit rusty now. Thanks for the tip! Timothy G. from CA (talk) 20:19, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I found the reason message that was used for that edit (manually added by the next edit):

Old

It works fine as long as the parameter is named (either 3= or reason= will do). If the parameter is unnamed or the parameter is misspelled, e.g. reasom= it doesn't work. And that's the case with either the old version or your enhanced version.

Your enhancement was up for 22 days, and in that time the template was used many times with no other reported problems. I've integrated your changes into the most recent version. Thanks for helping with that template! Wbm1058 (talk) 02:48, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Charles Fahy
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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates
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