User talk:Sage (Wiki Ed)

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Wiki Ed cat pyramid
Sage, I've got a bee in my bonnet about categorization. Will probably eventually post at ENB, but it's still inchoate. Tip of the iceberg is here, and I have some other thoughts. Maybe you'll read my mind, but I want to think about it or bounce ideas off you and then we can see what becomes of it, and if there's something there worth posting. Mathglot (talk) 05:27, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Alteration of the student editor template
Hi, there was recently a discussion on the deletion of the Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment template. It resulted in keep, but many editors have serious concerns over the template such as : (1) in every case I actually checked, the student editor made little to no contributions, though I recognise that may well be selection bias. But more importantly (2) said student editor gets 'credit' for their contributions in the article history, just like every other contributor. I see no reason to emphasise their contributions with a talk page banner. I myself find that the notice often remains on a talk page indefinitely after the students contributions, some talk pages have 5+ just sitting there... forever. As such, many users thought that the template may be best converted into a talk page message, how would you feel about that? I'm unsure where if we would have to find a community consensus on this (or where would would do so), but ProcrastinatingReader suggested this be brought up with you first. Best - Aza24 (talk) 23:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Aza24. As I suggested in the deletion discussion, one good option in my opinion to solve the clutter and 'sit there forever' issues would be to update the template so that it doesn't render anything after the end date of a course. That has the benefits of being easy to implement and easy to reverse, and it wouldn't require any cleanup for the many pages that already have the template. I'm less enthusiastic about doing it as a talk page message, because the current implementation of the posting code only ever edits the first section of the talk page — which is simpler and safer — and it behaves the same way on English Wikipedia as well as the other languages that have edits enabled for outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org courses. The less we have to account for different behavior on different wikis, the better. I think there are also likely problems that will come up with the new-talk-section approach, especially on active talk pages that get archived frequently. In particular, any time the assigned articles and/or editors change for a given class (eg, when a student editor joins or leaves a group editing an article), the system checks every talk page for every article that class is planning to work on, and updates the templates if necessary — or adds the template if it's missing. If the discussions on a talk page get archived frequently, then the template is likely to get reposted more than once during the semester. I imagine that would get annoying very quickly, and we'd need to make some major changes to the system to work around that.
 * If you'd like to lead a discussion to find consensus about the best option for these templates that includes the possibility of a major change, I would suggest doing it at WP:ENB, notifying the editors who participated in the deletion discussion, and adding the discussion to the Centralized discussion banner. If you think the "don't render the template after the course ends" approach is good, I think a lighter-weight discussion would be fine to establish rough consensus for that — perhaps proposing it on the template's talk page and leaving a note about it at WP:ENB. Since it would be easily reversible, the risk of a not-inclusive-enough discussion is low; if folks notice and complain in droves, we can just undo it.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:34, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey Sage. Can't the bot just append to the talk page? e.g. it should be safe to add, to the bottom of a talk page:
 * ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * ProcrastinatingReader: It's possible to change the code to do that instead of what it currently does, but as I alluded to above, there are complicating factors around a) updating things when students join or leave a group working on a particular article, b) reposting notifications after such a message gets archived or otherwise removed, and c) either making the behavior switch depending on the wiki or finding agreement across multiple language versions of Wikipedia to update the behavior in this way. If there's clear consensus that these should be done as bottom-of-the-page talk messages, rather than something like I proposed above, then I can work on updating the behavior. But in my opinion, the simpler route of changing the rendering behavior of the template would be better.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair point on the other language versions. Technically I'm guessing this is related to this and this? Since it seems your code does updating the template too (by replacing the entire template), so the talk page method I suppose it would really want to append a new message to the existing section (rather than replacing). Ultimately this may add some code complexity, so I can see why it may not be desirable to run two parallel versions. Do you see a feasible way to do this which doesn't add bloat to your codebase and doesn't take too much time to do? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I try to minimize the complexity as much as I can, but ultimately, it wouldn't be too tough to make it do one thing on English Wikipedia and something else on other wikis.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:00, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Sage, a problem with a lot of this discussion is that one often comes along and finds the problems years after students have left errors in medical articles. (Happened just this week at osteoporosis, for example.) As soon as I read something “off” in an article, all I have to do is go to the talk page, see a WikiEd banner, and easily know which contribs to check to find the rest of the problems.  Talk page sections get archived, increasing the chance we will lose track of the errors students leave in medical content.  The clutter being caused on article talk pages by DYK, ITN, OTD, GA and Vital articles (who won’t use the existing banners and templates,but just drop in templates), and truly useless templates like pageviews (which are available in an article tab) are a much bigger problem than WikiEd; I hope we do not overreact to the wrong problem and remove our ability to easily find and deal with student errors in medical content. Once I have checked the student editing, I can easily archive the WikiEd banner.  I am afraid these proposed solutions are an overreaction to the wrong problem, that will leave us hamstrung in detecting and correcting student editing problems. Why not make all those other processes, that are causing the real problems, do their part to tame talk clutter?  I have spent the better part of two months now cleaning up talk pages, and WikiEd is not even a small part of the big problem. Most of the problems can be solved by getting a bot to what Gimmebot did a decade ago! See full discussion here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  12:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Sage, a problem with a lot of this discussion is that one often comes along and finds the problems years after students have left errors in medical articles. (Happened just this week at osteoporosis, for example.) As soon as I read something “off” in an article, all I have to do is go to the talk page, see a WikiEd banner, and easily know which contribs to check to find the rest of the problems.  Talk page sections get archived, increasing the chance we will lose track of the errors students leave in medical content.  The clutter being caused on article talk pages by DYK, ITN, OTD, GA and Vital articles (who won’t use the existing banners and templates,but just drop in templates), and truly useless templates like pageviews (which are available in an article tab) are a much bigger problem than WikiEd; I hope we do not overreact to the wrong problem and remove our ability to easily find and deal with student errors in medical content. Once I have checked the student editing, I can easily archive the WikiEd banner.  I am afraid these proposed solutions are an overreaction to the wrong problem, that will leave us hamstrung in detecting and correcting student editing problems. Why not make all those other processes, that are causing the real problems, do their part to tame talk clutter?  I have spent the better part of two months now cleaning up talk pages, and WikiEd is not even a small part of the big problem. Most of the problems can be solved by getting a bot to what Gimmebot did a decade ago! See full discussion here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  12:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Sage, a problem with a lot of this discussion is that one often comes along and finds the problems years after students have left errors in medical articles. (Happened just this week at osteoporosis, for example.) As soon as I read something “off” in an article, all I have to do is go to the talk page, see a WikiEd banner, and easily know which contribs to check to find the rest of the problems.  Talk page sections get archived, increasing the chance we will lose track of the errors students leave in medical content.  The clutter being caused on article talk pages by DYK, ITN, OTD, GA and Vital articles (who won’t use the existing banners and templates,but just drop in templates), and truly useless templates like pageviews (which are available in an article tab) are a much bigger problem than WikiEd; I hope we do not overreact to the wrong problem and remove our ability to easily find and deal with student errors in medical content. Once I have checked the student editing, I can easily archive the WikiEd banner.  I am afraid these proposed solutions are an overreaction to the wrong problem, that will leave us hamstrung in detecting and correcting student editing problems. Why not make all those other processes, that are causing the real problems, do their part to tame talk clutter?  I have spent the better part of two months now cleaning up talk pages, and WikiEd is not even a small part of the big problem. Most of the problems can be solved by getting a bot to what Gimmebot did a decade ago! See full discussion here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  12:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging. I'm happy to implement changes for how the Dashboard behaves with these templates — or maybe just changes to the templates themselves — once there's a clear consensus on what they should do. The discussion above is about what is most practical technically (along with some of my thoughts on what makes the most sense to me), but I'm not planning to move forward with any particular changes until the dust settles and I can be confident I'm actually making it have the behavior that the community wants.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * does using WikiEd banner shell with yes solve your problem? Clutter gone, data preserved for those who want it. Mathglot (talk) 02:56, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem with that, Mathglot, is then we end up with at least three banners on talk (Projects, general, WikiEd ... and who will be next?) ... so we're right back to MORE talk page clutter again, just in a different form (banners proliferating instead of templates ... and Vital articles will be the next to ask for one). WikiEd templates can be rolled in to the existing banner, {{banner holder .  I agree with Sage that this all needs to work itself out via the thread at the Idea lab, with User:ProcrastinatingReader, where the overall picture is accounted for.  Best, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:02, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I apologize for somewhat abandoning this thread, I originally forgot about it and then was unsure about what to say. I suppose my main goal was to see if Sage was willing to make a change (when a consensus arrives) which it seems is true. I wonder if the ED template could simply be included as an "Article milestone". Anyways, I disagree that this issue is less important than other talk page clutter things; these kind of changes seem to take quite a while to go in effect, so fixing this helps resolve the problem as much as anything else in my mind. Aza24 (talk) 23:51, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Student on Human Overpopulation
Just saw a student sign up to work on Human overpopulation from this class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Pembroke/Reading_and_Writing_in_the_Natural_Sciences_(Spring_2021) -- the article is a trainwreck, and not something any reasonably newcomer will be able to do anything with -- highly recommend that they not unless their plan is to remove content. Sadads (talk) 22:18, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up! I'll keep an eye on it.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:23, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Education dashboard vs Dashboard
Dashboard should have a hat note 'for educational dashboard, see ?'. Cheers, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:20, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Sage, are you still here? Who can take care of this? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:38, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Piotrus: Hi! Sorry, I saw this previously but lost track of it. I haven't heard of anyone reaching that page and being confused, but if you have, then I agree that a hatnote would make sense. It's not a protected page; you could just add it.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 14:38, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Right, but hatnote to where? I couldn't find the right page to direct people who want to read about the educational dashboard. What is it? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 15:00, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Piotrus: I see your point. There's not a good on-wiki place specifically about that. I think it would make the most sense to include two links, one directly to dashboard.wikiedu.org and one to Programs & Events Dashboard.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 15:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Is this discussed on meta? I am surprised such a big development would have no on-wiki documentation. PS. FYI what started me on this was when a student asked me 'where is the manual for the dashboard'... and I was stumped :) I have recorded a video showing students how to do some stuff there, but it would be good to have a written instruction on 'how to add your assigned artcle' and so on. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:47, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Unused template?
Hi Sage, nice to meet you. I'm doing a bit of wikignoming with our templates. I was wondering if Template:Course page/Pod/editintro which you in a past life created in 2011 serves any purpose? If not I think I will propose it and around 20 similar templates for deletion at XFD. Cheers Tom (LT) (talk) 07:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't think those have any purpose anymore. Go for it. Thanks! Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:46, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure!

 * Hi Sage (Wiki Ed)! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission.  I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Start Page
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Lounge
 * The Teahouse new editor help space
 * Wikipedia Help pages

-- 18:56, Thursday, October 28, 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure!

 * Hi Sage (Wiki Ed)! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission.  I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Start Page
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Lounge
 * The Teahouse new editor help space
 * Wikipedia Help pages

-- 18:59, Thursday, October 28, 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Course page wizard/draft
Template:Course page wizard/draft has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Q28 (talk) 10:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment
Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment is now a subst-only section-creating template. I am happy to discuss tweaks and changes on the template's talk page, but if you could please make sure all of the scripts and programs that attempt to throw this template at the top of the page (or inside other banners) is updated according that would be super-awesome. Thanks! Primefac (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Primefac: this sounds like a big change in how the template should be used, and I can't immediately implement the Dashboard side of it. Until the Dashboard's code for this gets changed, it's going to keep trying to repost the template for current courses if a bot comes through and substitutes it. Can we change it back for now? I never took any steps to figuring out the details of an alternative strategy for posting and updating these kinds of details, in part because I don't have clear answers to any of the open questions I had posted near the end deletion discussion. I can probably work on that within the next few weeks; I'll need to add a way to reliably detected when the template has been substituted into a given page so that the Dashboard won't repost — or will modify the previous content — in that case.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Primefac: I took it back to an earlier version for now. It can't be subst-only until corresponding changes are ready on the Dashboard. We can discuss this more tomorrow; I just a quick revert to stop immediate problems.--ragesoss (talk) 01:50, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Course wizard
Template:Course wizard has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Izno (talk) 21:32, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Board of Trustees election
Thank you for supporting the NPP initiative to improve WMF support of the Page Curation tools. Another way you can help is by voting in the Board of Trustees election. The next Board composition might be giving attention to software development. The election closes on 6 September at 23:59 UTC. View candidate statement videos and Vote Here. MB 04:04, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Creating a campaign
The instructions say: "To create an event, click the “Create a New Program +” button in your “My Dashboard” menu."

But I don't see any such button on the page. Did I need to pretend to be an "Instructor" at sign up to get this button? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * WhatamIdoing: Are you on dashboard.wikiedu.org? If so, yes, you need to pretend to be an instructor to get that button. You can do that by going through dashboard.wikiedu.org/onboarding and choosing 'Instructor'.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm set up as an instructor.  Now it wants me to go through a training program and apply for Wiki Edu support.  Should I e-mail contact@undefinedwikedu.org to request exemption, or can you fix things directly? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You can race through the training by tapping the right arrow key (or clicking 'Next' quickly), and as soon as you get to the last slide of the instructor orientation module, the button should be enabled for you. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 21:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. It then took my through a whole long thing about setting up a timeline, which I created and then deleted.
 * My next step is to figure out how to get the right articles (or categories?) listed, and then to figure out how to track the one stat that I really care about (i.e., addition of sources). I'm going to go look at the documentation again. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I have figured out that refs are automagically counted. Now for the list of articles... WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:58, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If you want to use a dashboard to track WikiProject Medicine contributions, you should use outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org instead. (I didn't realize the context, or I would have pointed you there earlier. It skips over the instructor training workflow as well as the timeline creation process, but more importantly, you don't need to get approval from Wiki Education staff before it will start working.) If you pick 'Article Scoped Program' during event setup, then you can limit it to just medicine articles (via the WikiProject template, or categories, or a combination of those) by adding the right entries to the 'Categories...' section of the Articles tab. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:05, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I have set up the new one here:  https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/courses/Wikipedia/WikiProject_Medicine_reference_campaign_2023?enroll=qyoufwds  I've added Template:WikiProject Medicine as the thing to track.  The number of articles is maybe 15–20% lower than I expected.  Is this just an initial estimate, or might it be confused by redirects such as Template:WPMED? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I have also successfully deleted the old one, and I'm back to say how thoughtful the deletion confirmation prompt is. Typing the name of the to-be-deleted course should prevent a lot of accidental deletions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, it won't include the redirect ones, so you can add that as a second template. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Training feedback
Hi, Sage. Is there a discussion page where comments can be left about Wiki Ed training? I happened to look at the Wiki Ed Translation module, and I think it could be improved. I do a fair bit of translation, myself. I haven't even gone all the way through the doc, yet, but I did notice that the although there are three sections on finding an article to translate, one of my main methods of finding articles needing translation is not included. Where do I go to give feedback about this, and would it be welcome if the training pages themselves could have a tiny, 'Feedback' link someplace to facilitate such comments? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 06:15, 11 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @Mathglot: some of them actually do have a link at the end to provide feedback, but the easiest way to provide feedback is just to email someone (eg, me) or to leave it on the talk page of a Wiki Education staff member. If you'd like to use the feedback form that we use for some of the trainings, it's here: https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/feedback Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Ed/tour/example bio template
Hi, do you know if this page is still in use? As I noted on the talk page it uses a number of obsolete templates that I am trying to clean up. I can replace it with an example of the current template, but I don't want to break anything. And, by the way, the page https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/courses/tour/example_bio_template which is mentioned on the edit notice does not exist &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)


 * That page gets used as part of the preload content for a Guided Tour talk page tutorial (this one), via Wiki_Ed/tour/talk_page_preload. However, it isn't intended to do anything interesting; it's just there to give the feel of what a sparse article talk page looks like. Replacing it with an example of the current template would be great. I guess that edit notice is set up to work on every subpage of Wiki Ed, but it's only written for course pages. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:57, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay great, I'm going to replace it now. If anything goes awry, please let me know &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:07, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

"Salesforce"
Hi!

Is the message "Salesforce" in Wiki Edu Dashboard the name of a company? Or a noun describing sales people? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 04:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It refers to the CRM service salesforce.com, which is mostly synonymous with the company. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

all_enrollments_stats
And what is the message "all_enrollments_stats"? Looks a bit technical with all the underscores. Is it really supposed to be translated? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't see any instance of `all_enrollments_stats` in the Wiki Education Dashboard codebase. Where is the message you're referring to here? Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Miscellanea
Hi!

There's this translatable message in Wiki Ed Dashboard: "To make this program active and allow users to join, it must be added to a campaign. If you're unsure of which campaign to add, use 'Miscellanea'."

Where does "Miscellanea" appear? I couldn't find it elsewhere in the message. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)


 * It's the name of the default campaign: https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/campaigns/miscellanea/overview
 * In this case, it's a string that should not be translated. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'd recommend making it translatable, but it's probably not the most important thing :) Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

operation parameter
There's this translatable message in Wiki Ed Dashboard: "Unable to %{operation} the note. Please try again later."

What can the "%{operation}" word be? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I think 'create' or 'delete' are the possibilities. This should probably be split into two messages rather than interpolated. I'll create an issue. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I changed the message to avoid the need for interpolation: https://github.com/WikiEducationFoundation/WikiEduDashboard/commit/9e933b783dc62aa4f642ed79896e92e45029021c Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 22:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)