User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive/Januar 2005

Horned God
Sam, I know you care a lot about the distinction "God" vs. "god". But you are going a bit too far now. "Horned God" is usually capitalized, not because he is considered Singular, but, just like "United States" is not spelled "united states", because you have particular states in mind, "Horned God" is capitalized, because the name refers to a particular god, not just any random god who happens to have horns. Look at http://www.google.com/search?q=%22horned+god%22 and see how many instances of "Horned god" you can find. Please move it back. dab (ᛏ ) 13:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * You are exactly wrong, read Horned god. Its a compilation of thousands of dieties, perhaps even every male diety.


 * The Horned god is a modern syncretic term, invented in the 20th century to link together numerous male nature gods out of such widely-dispersed and historically unconnected mythologies as the Celtic Cernunnos, the Welsh Caerwiden, the English Herne the Hunter, the Hindu Pashupati, the Greek Pan and the satyrs, and even the Paleolithic cave painting "the Sorcerer" in the Cave of the Three Brothers in France.


 * 14:00, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Inca Gods

 * I notice you restored some of the Inca minor diety pages. Are you interested in working on these articles? Currently they are just copyvio's from a super crappy online encyclopedia. If not I'll be proposing the whole lot of them for deletion. --Zenyu 15:57, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes actually, I was thinking of doing some extensive editing of the Inca, Aztec, Olmec, Mayan, Toltec etc... mythology articles. Please don't list them for deletion. 19:16, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Great, I won't be listing them for deletion then. --Zenyu 19:27, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * Hoorah! 22:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why be pissed off with MBecker?
It's simple, Sam. I don't think admins should abuse their powers, even if they think what they are doing will gain approval. I especially think they shouldn't do it on pages they are involved in disputes over. Essentially, I do not feel there should be a privileged class here. Its existence has a great deal to do with the rot of this place. But given that we do have them, I think their powers should be extremely circumscribed, and they should know that they are.Dr Zen 02:44, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * so make a policy proposal, don't make frivolrous RfC's and waste everyones time with fluff and nonsense. Oh bother. 03:01, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * For the record, I wasn't invovled in the dispute that caused page protecting, I just entered into the discussion mere days ago. Reminds me of John Kerry.   —  マイケル   ₪  05:03, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

More edits to Hinduism
Happy New Year, Sam I added more changes to help outsiders better understand Hinduism in the article Hinduism. Here's some of the added language: Contemporary Hinduism is now divided into four major divisions, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, and Smartism. Just as Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same one God (eg., Yahweh, and Allah for example) but differ in their conceptions of Him, Hindus all believe in one God but differ in their conceptions. The two primary form of differences are between the two monotheistic religions of Vaishnavism which conceives God as Vishnu and Shaivism, which conceives God as Shiva. Other minor forms are aspects of Vishnu or Shiva; see Smartism for more information. I hope this clarifies once and for all that Hindus primarily worship the supreme personal God in form of Vishnu and Shiva. The Divine Mother or Shakti is simply God's Power personified and is not separate. Raj2004 02:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * We disagree my friend, God is Brahman, the breath of life, the absolute infinite sum total of all existence, everything that ever is, was, or shall be, even that imagined. All others are simply aspects, incarnations, avatars, devas and beings. God is being itself. I find it important to worship him directly, despite the difficulty. The path of righteousness, the opportunity for pure enlightenment in this lifetime, absolute subjugation of freewill to Gods dharma, that is my goal. Love that blinds me from desire, pure altruism. The love in my heart is but a cinder, but it can grow into a mighty inferno, lighting my way to God. It may be difficult to know the absolute, but I know him, he speaks to me. It is hard for me to understand that many do not, but some do, I know this much. Today I am rejoicing, God has returned my cat to me, after 3 days. I was all the time praying, perhaps every 20 minutes praying deeply. I was frightened that he had died prior to my first prayer. Our boy had left a window open, and somehow my cat found his way out and vanished. Now he is back again, and I have only God to thank for answering my prayers, as he always has. I may not be a perfect man, or live a perfect life, but God loves me. Some call this luck, but I call it karma. I have had a bit of suffering, but I feel very strongly that it is the good deeds which I do, and my love towards God and my neighbor which serve me best karmically. I have no desire for self-mortification.


 * In conclusion, while I may not be a Hindi, and am unable to speak for Hinduism, I am an Indo-European, believer in eternal righteousness with no beginning and no end, a lover of God and the Vedas, and able to speak to this. 02:56, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Sam, God is Brahman. Theistic denominations of Saivism and Vaishnavism call Nirguna Brahman Parasiva and Mahavishnu. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been helped personally very much by God's love. We all pray differently but the result is same. There is a God and we must open ourselves to God's grace. Vedantists call God Brahman as you are correct. For Saivites and Vaishnvaites respectively, the personal God is Brahman. Raj2004 11:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * A very interesting subject, have you seen the Change of the Hindu Trinity section on Trimurti? I put it there, based on content from the 1911 britannica. It is very interesting stuff, but might need a fact and spelling check. Cheers, 12:25, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * No problem. I will take a look at the Trimurti article. Raj2004 12:38, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks! 12:51, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also people will approach God differently and in their own way. What matters is faith and belief. Just for curiousity, is there any particular prayer you pray? Is it the Lord's prayer or a Hindu prayer? I myself have been chanting Vishnu sahasranama every day since March and it has been a tremendous source of strength. Raj2004 11:59, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I use the Lords prayer in formal settings, but for personal prayer I simply open my heart, mind and ears to God, and speak to him. I try very hard not to ask him for too much, but rather to focus on thanking him for his many blessings. Its a type of communication not easilly explained in words, but there is no denying his truth when he answers. I am not a perfect instrument of his will, far from it, but I struggle to improve myself step by step, based on the wisdom he has imparted to me. Chanting is something I havn't done much of, but I think Hindu chants are among the very best, and I find them enjoyable, particularly when engaging in some rhythmic activity, or attempting to clense the mind of worry and distress. One chant I am especially familiar with goes something like "gopala govinda rama, madana mohana" 12:25, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sam, here's an inspirational story of God's grace for the New Year. http://www.ashram.org/satsang_eng/ladymartin.html Again, have faith and belief in God, no matter what form or even you don't believe in God has no form at all. Even the most theistic Vaishnavites and Shaivites believe God has no form but use the form to concentrate. Raj2004 12:15, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I believe that God has every form, being immanent within all nature. In this way I am a bit of an animist, believing all people, animals and objects to be conscious, alive, and possessed of a soul. I wish you a blessed new year, 12:25, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I very much enjoyed that link! I especially liked the part about the Trishul and the warrior yogi, it reminded me of some Hindutva accounts I have read ;) 12:34, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Sam, a better term is panentheism or pantheism. In panenethesim, the universe is part of the body of God and God is pervading everywhere. In panetheism, the universe is God. Hindus learn more through panenthesm. That's why in Hinduism, Vishnu is called the All-pervading One. I don't know if you know the story of the avatar of Narasimha. In it, the evil king asks his son where your God is. Prahlad says everywhere. The king then wants Prahald to worship him but he refuses. The king says I will kill you and let's see if your God is everwhere. Then Narasimha appears. Raj2004 12:35, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I love the story of Narasimha, especially this (quoted from wiki article):


 * ''Narasimha kills Hiranyakashipu, since he is neither human nor animal nor god (an avatar can be a human, but this avatar is only part human and part animal) and he does so during twilight (neither day nor night), placing him on Narasimha's thighs (neither on earth, nor in space), on the threshold of the entrance to a courtyard (neither inside nor out) and using nails (neither animate nor inanimate) as weapons.


 * I find such clever tales very amusing, and expressive of the fact that everything is always possible. The Hindu avatars facinate me, and I particularly enjoy the clear similarity between Matsya, Noah and Utnapishtim. It seems clear to me that this is the same man, and is yet again evidence of the foolishness inherant in dividing the truth of the true religions. 12:50, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Very interesting. Also, I am convinced even geogically, a great flood did happen, perhaps 10,000 years ago after the end of the last Ice age. Also, I see a similarity between Manu and man. Perhaps man term derived from Manu. Raj2004 13:15, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the indo-european language group is very ancient, with many cognates. The flood was when the straits of gibralter broke, and the mediteranean flooded, I think. 13:35, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Need your help in Talk:Charles Darwin
I'm Neigel again. After I knew you're 'in favour of Vincent (I'm his formal advocate) in the very problematic Talk:Charles Darwin, I want you to cooperate in the Mediation process that I'm accelerating. I know you're not a popular user here (specially thanks your friend Adraeus), but we need (properly, Vincent needs) your help, Sam. Cheers --Neigel von Teighen 18:40, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually I'd say I'm extremely popular here, I got 92 votes in the recent arbiter elections, with a full 18% of total voters voting for me . Glad to weigh in, but to be honest I think this is a petty issue, and more of a personality conflict than anything of substantive importance to the article. Maybe some philosophic conflict over deletionism? I'll have a look, Cheers, 18:46, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mbecker
Please delete Requests for comment/Mbecker since it is invalid. — マイケル   ₪  06:17, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)


 * I can't, I'm not an admin. Try Administrators' noticeboard or Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment. Cheers, 11:30, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ebooks links in User pages
Can I put ebooks (possibly illegal) links in my wikipedia user pages? - Sridhar 08:47, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about that, but illegal stuff is generally frowned upon. What sorts of books are we talking about? Can I see the links? Cheers, 11:31, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Sure, see http://cs.annauniv.edu/~portal/wiki/index.php/Ebooks - 13:52, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Cool thanks!. I have no clue what to advise you about this tho, try the Help desk or Village pump, if your concerned. or just add it, and remove it later if people get upset, thats what I'd do myself ;) 14:26, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Trimurti
No problem, Sam and thanks. Happy New Year to you and your family as well. There is a common perception that Vishnu and Shiva as aspects of a personal supreme God is absent in the Vedas. That's not true. The Rudram, a Vedic hymn, decribes Rudra, an earlier aspect of Siva as Brahman. Yes, there are less Vedic hymns to those aspects of God. I believe religion evolves like any cultural thing. Even in the Bible, Yahweh was first conceived as a tribal god before he was conceived as the God of all. I think there was more emphasis on deva worship as ritual sacrifices were more in use and the need to obtain material things. That changed as Krishna in the Gita discouraged elaborate sacrifices and said those who worshipped devas instead of Him as God were of limited understanding. Also He encouraged that God only wants love and one does not need elaborate rituals to attain Him. Relevant verses from Gita: O Arjuna, even those devotees who worship other lesser deities (e.g., Devas, for example) with faith, they also worship Me, but in an improper way because I am the Supreme Being. I alone am the enjoyer of all sacrificial services (Seva, Yajna) and Lord of the universe." (Gita: 9:23) These are relevant verses from the Gita:

Chapter 9, Verse 23. Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is really meant for Me alone, but it is offered without true understanding.

Chapter 9, Verse 24. I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down. Chapter 9, Verse 25. Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods devas; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

Finally, this verse from Gita discouragd sacrifices;

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it. 9:26

Also I have created new articles on Nayanars, sixty-three saints dedicated to worship of Shiva, Kanapa, and the famed Kalahasti temple. Enjoy reading!

Raj2004 23:33, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for those links!
I've been trying to learn how to better work with this community, and the list of links you left in my talk page was extremely helpful. I expect I'll be referring to it for most of my stay here. Many thanks for helping out a wayward newbie! Arisna 23:42, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Happy new years! 23:47, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Vedic hymns noting supremacy of Vishnu
Vaishnavites' cite Rig Veda 1.22.20, for the supremacy of Vishnu, which states, "As the blazing sun pervades the entire sky like an eye fixed in the heavens, so the divine seers eternally perceive that supreme abode of Vishnu." Also, the foreword of P. Sankaranarayan's translation of Vishnu sahasranama, Bhavan's Book University, cites Rig Veda V.I.15b.3, for the importance of chanting Vishnu's name by stating, "O ye who wish to gain realization of the supreme truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization." Raj2004 23:44, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sam, may God be with you as well as your family. Let's pray for the victims of the tsunami. Raj2004 00:28, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Pic of the day
I have pic of the day template in my userpage. Why it is not getting updated? - Sridhar 07:02, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure, but at least there is a picture, for awhile there wasn't. Try asking @ Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Cheers, 11:56, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Assistance needed
For some reason, I haven't been able to center the SACN template the way most other templates are, despite serious attempts at copying the centering code from other (centered) templates. Help? Thanks in advance, Nightstallion 21:19, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I have no clue, try Help desk. Cheers, 21:29, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll try my luck there. Thanks anyway! Nightstallion 21:41, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Call for AMA election
AMA Member Advocate,

There's a poll currently in the AMA Homepage about making a new AMA Coordinator election. Please, cast your vote there (though it's not mandatory). Any comments you have about this, write it on the AMA Homepage talk page. Cheers, --Neigel von Teighen 18:43, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Will do, thanx, keep in touch. Cheers, 21:10, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Proposals for AMA Membership Meeting
Hey, Sam how is it going? As AMA Coordinator I am requesting that suggestions be placed on AMA Membership Meeting plans for our first membership meeting, to be held in the near future, (hopefully before any election occurs.) Since we have never had any kind of "official" meeting we need to discuss how this will occur (i.e. Wiki pages or IRC channel), how it will be structured (i.e. meeting agenda) and if there will be any "chair" to supervise the meeting and meeting "secretary" to write up minutes or keep some kind of official record of what transpires. Thanks in advance for your input and for all your continued work as an advocate. — ©  Alex756  20:09, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Will do, thanx, have a look @ Wikipedia talk:Association of Members' Advocates if you will. Cheers, 21:10, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

please help
I found some shocking profanity & arrogant nastiness on the deist/deism page & I am so new at this, I don't know how to fix it, or what to do. I couldn't edit it because the bad parts didn't show up in the code. I don't know what to do, I only just logged in for the first time. thank you for helping & for welcoming me. I use this sight every day for educational purposes & this was the first time I'd seen a mistake so you guys are doing excellent work. Thanks sabbastian


 * I think it had been repaired by the time you tried to correct it. Such foolishness is unfortunately all to common, but extremely easy to fix. I suppose the "Divine Watchmaker" had a purpose in mind for such louts, but I can't easily fathom it. Perhaps to give us a bit a perspective, on days when we are overly self-effacing? ;) 01:18, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Karma in Hinduism
Sam, thanks for your help on Ishta Deva. I have written an article a while back on Karma in Hinduism and how it is different from Buddhism and Jainism. Please feel free to take a look at it. Raj2004 11:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) For your info, this is Swami Sivananda's defintion of a guru. I doubt Sathya Sai Baba remotely fits this category. "The guru is God himself manifesting in a personal form to guide the aspirant. Grace of God takes the form of the guru. To see the guru is to see God. The guru is united with God. He inspires devotion in others and his presence purifies all. The guru is verily a link between the individual and the immortal. He is a being who has raised himself from this to That, and thus has free and unhampered access into both realms. He stands, as it were, upon the threshold of immortality; and, bending down he raises the struggling individuals with one hand, while with the other he lifts them up into the imperium of everlasting joy and infinite truth-consciousness. The true guru is Brahman himself. He is an ocean of bliss, knowledge and mercy. He is the captain of your soul, the fountain of joy. He removes all your troubles, sorrows and obstacles. He shows you the right divine path and tears your veil of ignorance. He makes you immortal and divine, transmuting your lower, diabolical nature. He gives you the rope of knowledge, and takes you up when you are drowning in this ocean of births and deaths. Do not consider him to be only a man, for, if you do, you are a beast. Worship your guru and bow to him with reverence. Guru is God. A word from him is a word from God. He need not teach anything. Even his presence or company is elevating, inspiring and stirring, his very company being self-illumination. Living in his company is spiritual education. Read the Granth-Saheb (the holy scripture of the Sikh religion). You will come to know the greatness of the guru. Man can learn only from man, and hence God teaches through a human body. In your guru, you have your human ideal of perfection, the pattern into which you wish to mould yourself. Your mind will readily be convinced that such a great soul is fit to be worshipped and revered. Guru is the door to liberation, the gateway to the transcendental truth-consciousness. But, it is the aspirant that has to enter through it. The guru is a help, but the actual task of practical spiritual practice falls on the aspirant himself. The guru's tender smile radiates light, bliss, joy, knowledge, peace. He is a blessing to suffering humanity. Whatever he says is Upanishadic teaching. The guru knows the spiritual path. He knows the pitfalls and snares on the way. He gives timely warning to his students. He showers his grace on their heads. All agonies, miseries, tribulations, taints of worldliness, etc., vanish in his presence."

As I said before, such case is limited in contemporary times. Examples of such God-realized gurus include Ramakrishna and Raghavendra Swami.

Raj2004 12:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * The Guru concept is one I have always found off-putting. I'm not so sure I believe in such men. Of course their is Jesus, Krishna, and other avatars, those who have achieved moksha, but yet chose to return to us in the flesh to lead us once again. I don't know anyone like that who is alive, and am very dubious of those who make grandiose claims. I know God, and my God is within all, but he is not incarnate in one, singular man. No mans words, no scriptures, no church doctrines are purer truth than the words of God in answer to my prayers. A priest or holy man can lead us to God, but let us be careful he does not stand inbetween us and God, seking to become an idol.


 * I'll have a look at that Karma in Hinduism article, cheers, 13:46, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's true, Sam and thanks. even Hindus don't worship all avatars. As I said before in the avatar article, only the Purna avatars of Narasimha, Rama and Krishna are worshipped today. There are hardly any temples to Rama and practically all avatar temples dedicated to Krishna as He is the highest kind of avatar. He knew he was God and exhibited God's power. We don't worship Parushrama as he is a secondary avatar nor do we worship Vishnu's earlier avatars. (see avatar article. Your other views are the views of the Smartas. We belive that God is the only Guru and it is up to us and HIs grace to obtain God although we respect enlightened saints/teachers. Also, the Brahma sutras refuted Buddhism; see http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-2-insy.html

Best, Raj2004 14:07, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Myself I oppose (philosophically, not in an iconoclastic manner) even the worship of legitimate avatars, such as Jesus or Krishna. I think it is best to focus ones energies towards the absolute, rather than the finite. That said, even the most base idolotry is better than atheism or impiety, and worship of one who is holy is far better than worship of one who is not. God knows our hearts, and wishes us to progress vigorously on our path towards him, regardless of the path we choose. 16:12, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You owe me a talk ;)
Which instant messaging program do you use most often? I promised you a discussion, remember? :) -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 02:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * MSN. You can find my particulars @ User:Sam Spade/Info. I'm off to bed @ the moment tho, sorry. Feel free to write an email or something. Cheers, 03:07, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

An honour mine, the recognition thine
Dear Sam,

I have had the high honour of being nominated as your cronie by your good friend Adraeus.

I accept the nomination in all humility.

Vincent 03:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * hahahaha... keep up the good work, if it makes Adraeus angry, it must be right! ;) 14:53, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Sam. FYI, I have just requested arbitration over the Charles Darwin edit war. Vincent 05:10, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)