User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive/Juli 2005

Ayya Vazhi
Thanks, Sam for the compliment you said about me to Vaikunda.

Human
My pleasure. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 17:38, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Passover & Pentecost
Hi Sam, just wondering what the point was in trying to disambiguate Passover from Pentecost. Passover or Pesach is the Jewish holiday, and Shavuot occurs 7 weeks later. Pentecost is the Christian holiday that occurs seven weeks after Easter. I'm sure you know all this, so I'm simply curious what your intentions were. JFW | T@lk  17:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Pentacost used to redirect there . Since you opposed the disambig, I redirected it to Pentecost, and placed a disambig there. I find your reverts and the reasoning for them unhelpful. Sam Spade 17:43, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing the redirect. It obviates the need for disambiguation at the top of Passover. JFW | T@lk  17:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * We still havn't resolved the issue of your reverts regarding the disambig header @ Pentecost however... Sam Spade 20:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the reader should be able to "find what they are looking for", but the previous version was misleading and incorrect.

Old version:
 * Note: This article is mostly about the Christian holiday of Pentecost. For the Jewish holiday of "Pentecost" see the articles on Shavuot, or passover

My version:
 * The name of the Jewish holiday Shavuot is commonly translated as "Pentecost".

There is only one small difference between these disambiguation lines, namely the mention of Passover. The article itself makes it abundantly clear that Pentecost is a Christian holiday, and as I stated quite clearly in my edit summary, the term "pentecost" only bears distant causal relationship and should certainly not be disambiguated at the top of the article. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to resolve, Jack. JFW | T@lk  21:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Pentacost used to redirect to passover. Now it redirects to pentecost. Seems obvious to me that a link to passover be handy in the disambig. I agree that may not be perfectly precise, but disambigs arn't ment to be. They are rather a resource to help people find the article they are looking for. Sam Spade 22:03, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Continued @ Talk:Pentecost. Sam Spade 22:05, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for considering me an interesting person. Thankfully Wikipedia is populated by a large number of fascinating people, which makes the discourse quite remarkable.

The crux of our discussion seems to be the linking of Passover. Apart from the erroneous redirect, on what grounds do you think this is necessary? I'm still open to persuation. JFW | T@lk  22:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Why would someone confuse Passover and Shavuot any more than Passover and Sukkot (the other pilgrimage festival)? Disambiguation is very noble, but there is a nice box at the bottom of the Shavuot page linking all Jewish holidays. If you feel very strongly that passover should be mentioned at Pentecost I will not revert you. JFW | T@lk  23:05, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I can quite agree with a wait & see approach.

... and all that over a few words at the top of a page :-) JFW | T@lk  23:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you for the info. Much appreciated. A.S. Brown 05:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)A.S Brown


 * Your very welcome, glad to have you! Sam Spade 22:07, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the help. Shanekorte 04:54, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Likewise! Cheers, Sam Spade 22:07, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Gladly! Sam Spade 00:07, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Neo-liberalism and neo-conservativism.
Neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism are in fact strongly related to one another. You appear to be confused with the terms in so far as neo liberalism refers to Neo-liberal as opposed to Keynesian economics (which dominated economic policy from the thirties until the mid seventies), and to free market global economics of the Thatcher-Reagan and Post-thatcher Reagan (present) period. Neo-conservative refers to Neo-conservative political policy a la Reagan/Maggie Thatcher and to the political ideology of Paul Wolfowitz, Leo Strauss, the PNAC and dominant members of the current Bush administration. Neo-liberal economic policies are central to the policies of neo-conservative administrations. User:193.1.172.163


 * I agree they are closely linked, from what I know neo-liberal is a broader catagory, including folks like Clinton. Neo-Con is a slightly more morally "conservative" (altho it is truely ridiculous to call them conservative) subset of neo-liberalism. What inspired this? Sam Spade 14:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Amicable but serious
Sam, I am back trying to negotiate with this editor, which is a positive. However the issue cannot advance because cited works are not sufficient to break his defences. There has to be arbitration soon now. would you please organise the complete flagging of this to achieve a balance. I have endlessly cited and tried. I'm fond of the battle and the writer,and the argument is rather revealing and at least brings the subject into the present but this is a terrific block and is not an issue I should walk away from, nor should WP policy be ignored. Ill forhtwith see if I can simplify myself down to FK, and save further time. Fiamekeeper 21:17, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dear Sam, I have posted on the pages Talk:Ludwig Kaas and Talk:Centre Party (Germany), trying tobring some structure into the dispute and hoping that FK will gave a structured answer. Str1977 30 June 2005 10:47 (UTC)

Existence of God merger
I'm attempting to develop a consensus in favor of merging the Arguments against the existence of God and the Arguments for the existence of God articles. A beta version of the resulting article is available at Existence of God. To date, there seems to be consensus in favor of this merger on the "for" talk page, I'm now trying to get a consensus together on the "against" talk page. Please visit Talk:Arguments against the existence of God to weigh in. I'm copy-and-pasting this message to everybody who has contributed to that talk page. crazyeddie 05:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

User:Vaikunda Raja
Iam Vaikunda Raja, a new editor to wikipedia.I was warned for vandalism, and the request from me is, kindly review my articles and give me hints to follow.

sam spade
What alcohol did sam spade drink?


 * Hefeweizen. Sam Spade 23:32, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you very much for your response-Vaikunda Raja

Thanks and Ayya Vazhi
Thanks for the compliment, Sam when you mentioned me to Vaikunda. Well, from what I read in their web site, http://www.vaikunt.org, Ayya Vayzi religion is a new Hindu sect that developed in Tamil Nadu in the nineeteenth century. They have interesting beliefs. They believe that there is a Satanic-like figure, Kroni or Kalanemi (please see web site) who is partly responsible for the evil in the world. This Kroni manifests from age to age in various forms, such as Hiranksahipu, Ravana and Duryodhana from the Mahabharata. To destroy him, Vishnu incarnates in his avatars as Narasimha, Rama and Krishna. Caste prejudice is strongly condemned and it is believed that Vishnu empowered a man to be the Ayya Vaikunt avatar in the nineteenth century to begin the destruction of the evil that will finally disappear. When Vaikun mentions manu avatar, it means it is not a direct descent of Vishnu like Krishna but rather Vishnu enters the soul of a man and gives him power. (i.e., Parushrama, see avatar. According to their beliefs, Vishnu empowered a man of low caste to show the downtrowden the right way. He was ayya vaikunt and taught people the right way.

Additionally, like Smartas, they believe that Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are one and the same God. Also, they frown on icon worship and stress that God can be both with form and without form (can never be limiting) but like Arya samaj, they stress the formless God. Their web site is fascinating. I found it interesting. Raj2004 02:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I have been trying to clean up some of the nice articles he has written, and thus learned a bit, but I think I should also have a look at this website! So much to do at the moment, I am beginning to read the Bhagavad Gita again, this time as translated by Edwin Arnold, and of course their is my mathematics! But slowly, I always find a way :)


 * Cheers, Sam Spade 03:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The web site was very helpful. It gives context to the article. Raj2004 10:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I suggested, Vaikunt said he is going to write a new article about differences and similarities between Hinduism and Ayya-Vazhi religion. Watch for it! Raj2004 20:54, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Will do! Sam Spade 00:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

err.... menu
umm.. err... yeah.

Hi Sam,

Just letting you know, I blatantly ripped off your menu formatting... (I acknowledged you at the bottom of my page though). If you dont like that I did that - feel free to leave me a message notifying me to remove it. Thanks! :) -UnlimitedAccess 11:15, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent, I was hoping that would be your attitude... :) Oh and thanks for welcoming me to Wikipedia almost two months ago as well, made me feel at home.. :) - UnlimitedAccess 15:58, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks! I might add some of your suggestions to my list later when you have finish any changes you are making to the /Skeptical page.. :). Yes I figured I should make my stance on certain subjects known, so that if I ever go down the dark path of contributing on some of those articles, other editors are aware of my bias, in the hopes of irradicating any passive bias I may be implying in my writing. - UnlimitedAccess 16:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I know, I have read them many times. Its the page that gave me the idea... :) - UnlimitedAccess 16:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Well firstly as im sure you gathered we are diametric opposites.... so we would spend an eternity discussing our views. And since many of your views are based on faith, debate is a moot point. Faith is the belief in something despite traditional evidence contradicting it. Thats what makes it admirable (and a test by God) to have it. If it was the most logical choice, it would cease to be faith and cease to be a test. Justifying it and rationalizing it just sullys what is special about faith to begin with. I am anti militant, anti-conservative and pro abortion, so our discussion would rage on for an eternity. Additionally, this probably isnt the best platform for such a discussion either. :) - UnlimitedAccess 16:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * "Clearly if (for me it's obvious, you may take it simply as postulated) there is a singular monist all-encompassing imminent immanent absolute infinite sentient personal God, than [sic] the laws of nature, logic, and everyday common sense would surely be his doing." Iff God exists. And that conclusion is only reached based on faith. One can argue absolute truth, and that laws of logic and nature == God, however that is true if and only if God exists. Their is always an underlying presumption of faith (belief in God), which as previously mentioned is a moot debate. - UnlimitedAccess 17:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * All arguments will eventually break down to etymological semantics and Stipulative definition just as surely as analogies at some point will no longer remain consistent. Enjoy your links...haha :) - UnlimitedAccess 17:39, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * User:Sam Spade/Talk:Theoretical Biases/Atheism thread

Mezmerize
If you want to give a shot at producing an edit that might deflect the edit war let me know. I would like to unlock this page asap. Guettarda 01:24, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I just emailed you. Let me know if you don't get the message. Guettarda 01:34, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

User at Linda Hall Library
User:204.56.7.1 at Linda Hall in KCMO is making some good contributions, but he is sometiimes impetuous and unwilling to work with others. Also he frequently leaves grammatical gaffs behind. On the plus side blocking is probably unnecessary since he only seems to access from the public terminal about 8 hours a day. I just wanted to let you know (if you didn't already) that it is a good idea to check to see if any cleanup is needed after he leaves each day around 21:00 UTC. Unfortunately he does many small, unsummarized edits, which makes them somewhat harder to follow. If more stringent action should be needed, we could contact the library administration (it is a research library with public access, not a municipal library, which suggests they might want to handle it rather than being blocked). --Blainster 29 June 2005 00:26 (UTC)

Secretlondon
Oh, come off it Sam. That comment on Secretlondon's talk page was utterly uncalled for. It's not as if you haven't said far worse in your time on the 'pedia. Ambi 30 June 2005 14:19 (UTC)


 * Actually I toned it down alot, and made it as polite as possible, leaving out, for example, references to her theatrical departure aprox 1yr ago. I have no patience for people who make this an unpleasent place to be. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 30 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)


 * If that is indeed the case, then certainly you won't mind apologizing to me on my talk page for your insulting email, now found there. FeloniousMonk 30 June 2005 17:33 (UTC)


 * WTF? Would such an insincere, technical apology, granted only due to your endless whinging mean anything to you? Is that what you call a victory? If so, thats very sad, and I'll gladly apologise for being a part of that. According to your user page you do indeed have a life, so I suggest you go live it... move on, I have. Stop being one of those "theatrical" people who make this an unpleasant place to be. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 30 June 2005 17:40 (UTC)


 * Sam has chosen to censor my response from his talk page. My response can now be found on my Talk page. FeloniousMonk 30 June 2005 18:53 (UTC)

Wiki bug, need help reporting.
hey, there is a problem with headers cutting into templates because of some recent change someone made to wikipedia. I tried to report the bug but don't know how to do it correctly.

This problem only shows up in internet explorer 6.

Here is an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owl_%28comics%29

See how the header cuts into the table?

Can somebody fix this? Most people use internet explorer. ScifiterX 1 July 2005 03:18 (UTC)


 * Problem was in monobook.css, not MediaWiki software; I already fixed it. —Lowellian (talk) July 1, 2005 22:48 (UTC)

Ayya Vazhi article
Sam, I agree with you that "His" should be capitalized in the discussion of Kroni. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyavazhi Mel Ettis keeps on changing it. (rm PoV use of capital)http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ayyavazhi&action=history

In any event, I changed it back.

Raj2004 3 July 2005 21:57 (UTC)


 * Watch out for him, he is an admin, and glad to block a user if he see's a chance. Be careful not to revert more than once a day. I will help, of course! ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 3 July 2005 22:08 (UTC)

Sam, Mel explained to me that he did it to comply with wikipedia neutrality view. He said "he" was used in all religious articles including christianity and islam. I agreed with him then so long as he was not doing an anti-Hindu view, which he seemed to show from an objective point of view. If for neutrality and consistency, then ok.

Raj2004 3 July 2005 22:46 (UTC)


 * Ok. I don't agree, when Muhhamed's name is said, they also say "peace be upon him", in many wiki articles. But I won't break concensus if you prefer compromise. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 3 July 2005 22:49 (UTC)

Sam, here's what I gathered about ayya vazhi from their web sites:

Ayya Vazhi, the religion is a small sect in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu. They, like Smartism is a monist, monotheistic religion and believe that Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu, are aspects of the same God. Additionally, unlike practically all Hindus, they believe in a Satan-like figure, Kroni who encourages the spread of evil in different ages. In order to put down this evil, they belive Vishnu incarnates as Rama, Krishna to destroy manifesttations of evil, Ravana, Duryodhna, etc. who are all manifestations of this same Kroni. Additionally, like Vaishnavites, they believe, that God who incaranates from time to time to destory evil, incarnated as Ayya Vaikundar in the nineteenth century.

Ayya Vaikuntar's mission was to uplift the downtrowden low caste Hindus who were discriminated severely back then and to teach a simplified religion, based on love of God and not ritual.

Hence, Ayya Vaikunt preached against elaborate rituals,such as the use of murti in worship. He said that God can never be defined so he used a simple symbol, an object to concentrate on God, a wooden jyothi or flame wrapped in cloth and a mirror in the back. This evokes monistic principles. God and you are essentially the same but due to ignorance or maya, you don't realize your own divine nature. The Lord resides in every soul like a flame. so in philosophy, they are closely related to Advaita. Additionally, they are similar to Arya Samaj in that God should be worshipped without form as God can never be defined.

Raj2004 4 July 2005 13:59 (UTC)


 * Yes, and while I find their mythology a bit hard to take literally, I find all of their doctrines particularly agreeable, as you might already have guessed ;) One thing which interests me a great deal is the emphasis on the Rudraksha. Is this something you know much about? Would you perhaps be able to help improve the Rudraksha page? I want to learn more about this. I will ask User:Vaikunda Raja to help as well :)


 * ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 4 July 2005 18:03 (UTC)

Sam, I don't know as much about rudraraksa. Rudraraka are the material from which sacred beads (108) are made and is common in worship in Shaivism. Here are some very good sites on shaivism: http://www.shaivam.org/shprudraxa.htm

Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami defines rudrarakha from his book, Dancing with siva, rudraksha: (Sanskrit) ""Eye of Rudra;" or "red-eyed." From rud, "to cry," and aksha, meaning "eye." Marble-sized, multi-faced, reddish-brown seeds from the Eleocarpus ganitrus, or blue marble tree, which are sacred to Siva and a symbol of His compassion for humanity. Garlands, rudraksha mala, of larger seeds are worn around the neck by monks; and nonmonastics, both men and women, often wear a single bead on a cord at the throat. Smaller beads (usually numbering 108) are strung together for japa (recitation). Indian legend records that God shed a tear when looking down upon the sorrowful plight of humanity. That tear fell to Earth and from it grew the first rudraksha tree. Thus its seeds are worn by Hindus as a symbol of Siva's love and compassion. from http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/lexicon/r.html

Rudraraksha are holy and said to have mystical powers, including protection from evil.

Hope this helps.

Raj2004 4 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)


 * Thank you! See Talk:Rudraksha ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 4 July 2005 23:57 (UTC)

no problem!

Raj2004 5 July 2005 01:06 (UTC)

the use of rudraraksha can distinguish what denomination you are. worshippers of Vishnu use beads made of tulsi while saivites use rudraraksa. Raj2004 5 July 2005 01:11 (UTC)