User talk:SandAJ

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Happy editing! 73.186.215.222 (talk) 14:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Sandra Anne Jensen. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:


 * avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization or competitors;
 * propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the request edit template);
 * disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Conflict of interest);
 * avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see WP:Spam);
 * do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. 73.186.215.222 (talk) 14:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Now I see there is a notice stating "This article may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments". Can you tell me what brought this concern about? The original creator of the article is, I believe, although I do not know, Fernand Haenggi. Fernand Haenggi created an online archive of South African artists: http://www.art-archives-southafrica.ch. He is in his late 80s living in Switzerland but used to run a gallery in South Africa. He is not selling art to my knowledge, and there is nothing on the article that would indicate the article was created for payment. Can you let me know? Also, there is now a notice stating: "The topic of this article may not meet Wikipedia's notability guideline for biographies. Please help to establish notability by citing reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention. If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged, redirected, or deleted." There are numerous newspaper articles about Berrell Jensen from the late 50s to the early 70s from South Africa mainly, and I can take photographs of them and upload to the page, but they are not archived online to my knowledge. Berrell Jensen was perhaps the first woman in South Africa to learn to weld, and certainly the first woman to create large scale public commissions. Please advise how I am to proceed here.--Sandra Anne Jensen (talk) 21:14, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. Thank you. 73.186.215.222 (talk) 16:12, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I'm very new to this. As you know the article was originally created by a since blocked promotional/paid editor. I did not know this article existed until very recently and sought to clean it up, using my actual name and not an IP so this shows I'm not trying to hide anything. The article had a number of factual errors, which is why I ventured in. You state: "No response to messages, and is warring to include a list of non notable commercial gallery exhibits, taken from the subject's website." This is not me warring, I didn't know there was a problem, I did not create the lists. I have since removed them. There is really no other person able to contribute and clean up this article but myself, so I'm not sure how you want me to proceed. It has taken me some hours to find out how to even answer you here, so please bear with me.--Sandra Anne Jensen (talk) 17:47, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

And I'm not sure what you are referring to here: "Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted." The person who originally created the article may have been doing this, but I don't see how I am? --Sandra Anne Jensen (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I notice that there are now two warning notices on the article: ''The topic of this article may not meet Wikipedia's notability guideline for biographies. Please help to establish notability by citing reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention.'' And: ''This article may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments, a violation of Wikipedia's terms of use. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies''.

I have available to me numerous original newspaper articles on Berrell Jensen's work, from the late 50s to the early 70s in South African newspapers. I have not yet found archives of them online but I will continue to search. I can take photographs of the articles and upload to wherever you tell me to if proof is needed. Given Berrell Jensen was very likely the first woman to learn to weld in South Africa, and certainly the first woman to create numerous large scale commissions out of welded metal, I think the notability guideline is surely fulfilled? And regarding the article being created for payment, I would like to know how or why this is considered? I believe the article was originally created by Fernand F. Haenggi, who creates an online archive of South African artists. I am not sure it was him, but given some of the information in the article it seems likely. He is not selling Berrell Jensen's art. In fact her art is very rarely up for sale, I know of 3 instances in the past decade. Most of her art is publicly commissioned and therefore not for sale. Please let me know how to proceed here. --Sandra Anne Jensen (talk) 21:25, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Here is a list of just some of the newspaper articles about Berrell Jensen from Haenggi's online archive http://www.art-archives-southafrica.ch/JENSEN.htm#refs There are some links to pdf copies of the articles. --Sandra Anne Jensen (talk) 21:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC) Regarding notability, Berrell Jensen had sixteen one-person exhibitions, 22 two person exhibitions and twenty-two large-scale public commissions. The actual scale of the work and the time period in which most of it was created should be taken into consideration.--Sandra Anne Jensen (talk) 22:02, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Sandra, I hear you, and appreciate your efforts to improve the article about Berrell Jensen. In part, I wanted to catch your attention, slow you down and have you read some guidelines--new users who come here solely to edit on articles about their families don't often improve things. I did not place the two current templates on the article, nor did I question notability. The article was created by an account that was later blocked for promotional/paid editing, and has since been largely edited by you. The claims of Jensen being the first female artist in South Africa to weld are interesting, and need published WP:RELIABLE sources to support them. I know that it can be difficult to find newspaper articles from forty or fifty years ago to support content, and sometimes only family members keep such clippings. The best path to take is to be transparent regarding conflict of interest, which you're presumably doing by virtue of your user name. Then, especially as a new editor, you can ask questions and make suggestions at the article talk page, or at one of Wikipedia's noticeboards that are designed to assist in such circumstances. Very best, 73.186.215.222 (talk) 22:12, 24 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Without a set of reliable secondary sources, and without some significant edits that make this article less a hagiography and more an article worthy of an encyclopedia, this might well be cut more and/or deleted. NEEDS SOURCING. Drmies (talk) 01:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding verifying works and other citations required, would an uploaded PDF/scan of a newspaper article to wiki commons work? Sandra Anne Jensen (talk) 13:21, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * From my perspective that is not the point. Sources don't have to be available online--they need to be reliable and cited properly. If they are, in principle other editors can find them. But if content is not sourced, why would someone assume it's correct? Drmies (talk) 21:32, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Understood and on the 25th as per the section below has offered to assist with this. It will take time, but it will be done. In the meantime, another user has edited content in a way that makes the issue raised by  about notability even more concerning by removing two mentions to important exhibitions (citations are needed yes but that was not why they were removed, the reason stated is "unencyclopedic") and has rendered one section of the text non factual, an error made before, and one of the reasons why I originally went in to fix the page up. Ireland is not in the United Kingdom - and the history of the countries makes this a grave error. This is exactly the kind of thing that if seen by anyone would make them think Wikipedia is totally unreliable. Because of all the attention I've received on this page I'm very nervous about going in to fix it myself. I've let them know on their talk page but no response. I only mention this here as there has been a lot of focus on what I have done wrong, and yet users are going in and making things  worse in my view. Perhaps here is not the place to discuss this, perhaps the Teahouse is better? Apologies if that's the better place. SandAJ (talk) 09:15, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I have added a comment to the noticeboard discussion that in my opinion you have shown clear intent to learn how Wikipedia operates, and 'color within the lines.' Talk page of the article is best place for you to comment, given your COI. If someone's deletion of text has created a factual error, point that out at Talk. Be patient. David notMD (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated, thank you. So just to be clear, I'm not to make any changes at all on the Berrell Jensen page, I must only comment on the article's Talk page, correct? What about photographs of her work that I own? SandAJ (talk) 11:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As in I own the photographs, not her work itself.SandAJ (talk) 11:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ideally, going forward, you should propose changes on the Talk page, for a non-COI editor to implement or not. I addressed the image issue on the article's Talk page. You 'own' the photographs, but the copyright belongs to the photographer. If your mother was the person who took these photographs of her own work there is a path to using them. David notMD (talk) 12:31, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Newspaper articles
Hello Sandra Anne Jensen,

Newspaper articles published in the last 95 years are copyrighted and cannot be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. I would like to assist you in adding these articles as references. To start, please email what you consider to be the five best articles to me. Look for articles that provide an overview of her career or describe significant exhibitions in detail. My email address is JimHeaphy52@gmail.com. I will summarize those articles and incorporate that content into the Wikipedia article. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  19:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)