User talk:Sanfranman59/Archive 2

SF NRHP coords
I see that List of Registered Historic Places in San Francisco, California does not have coordinates (many NHL lists use a table format with coordinates). The coordinates are available here. Unfortunately, too many templates exceed some Wikipedia limits so very large lists, such as all NRHP in California, can not be created (often lists for each county are used to reduce the size). If coordinates were in the list then Template:GeoGroupTemplate could produce a map such as offered in List of Registered Historic Places in Kings County%2C New York -- SEWilco (talk) 19:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't remember how I created that table, as I have the Unix text toolbox handy. One might use a spreadsheet; load the first column with the existing list, then paste the coordinates in the adjacent column, and check for alignment.  Then convert from the spreadsheet format to wikitable.  -- SEWilco (talk) 21:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of Registered Historic Places in Kansas
An editor has nominated List of Registered Historic Places in Kansas, an article which you have created or worked on, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 23:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The result of the discussion must have been KEEP, as the article survives.

List of RHPs in the City of Angels
Hi. Your help in fixing up List of RHPs in the City of Angels, a brand new list-article that I am putting up for DYK, would be appreciated. I pasted in a statement saying that this list is updated as of a certain date, but the date applies for List of Registered Historic Places in Dakota County, Minnesota, not necessarily for LA. Could you check/fix that in particular? It would be most appreciated. doncram (talk) 01:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that helps. I can see that there are no new listings for City of Los Angeles (although there is one for Pasadena, also in County of LA), in the new listings including and since April 18.  Any other comments on the Los Angeles list would be welcomed.  I am trying to develop it really quickly and get a DYK for it.  Needs to be in good shape within a day or two, for that. doncram (talk) 05:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

List of octagon houses
Yay! the DYK finally went through, and the DYK hook, with no picture though, is on the Wikipedia main page right now. Tho it is the middle of the night in the U.S. The DYK administrator saw fit to directly award the DYK plaque to Lvklock, not to Clariosophic or to me, oh well. But, indirectly then, passing the award on...

The hook that appears now is, Did You Know: *... that zooming in from satellite view, one can see the outlines of Wilcox Octagon House and most of the 82 octagon houses listed on the U.S. National Register?


 * Thanks, Sanfranman59, for your help, including corrections of coordinates and the last-minute Feusier house pic add. It was fun getting the list out, at least (meaning it was less fun about negotiating for the DYK)!  doncram (talk) 08:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Clickable state maps
Per the User talk:Doncram discussion as it unfolded, by all means ask StepShep directly to create a CT clickable map for u! StepShep has been a real trouper recently.

By the way, i noticed you have a lot of edits in List of Registered Historic Places in West Virginia and/or the Kentucky RHP lists covering Floyd County, KY and Pike County, KY. It appears you have been doing a lot of the very valuable background work that often goes unnoticed. Thanks! doncram (talk) 22:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Fourth of July, or bust, Thanks!
Thank you so much for your contribution, during the June 11-July 4 cleanup period, of fixes for potentially embarrassing date-sort SNAFUs for all of the NHL area list articles. That is huge! Also, I see in your contributions you've been very active in lists of RHPs rather than NHLs specifically, recently, but i know we would not be in the shape we are in, for NHLs without your cumulative help! Thank you for you 10 previous pics included in List of NHLs in CA! cheers, doncram (talk) 18:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

date-sortability within List of RHPs in WI
Hi, I wonder if you could fix up 3 county-tables within List of RHPs in WI, which i was plodding into doing manually one-by-one. In general response to a local wikipedian's interest in having tables to upload photos to, as a first step before adding new tables to all the other counties. Done already is the first table for Allen county, with 2 entries, but just the first row of larger Barron County was changed. And there are 2 other largish counties. You must be very efficient with your spreadsheet based approach to this, as you really zipped through all the NHL lists before. It would be fine also if you don't care to, i am sure that it can be managed. cheers, doncram (talk) 06:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Registered Historic Places in Detroit, Michigan
Why did you delete the pictures I added to this page? Andrew Jameson (talk) 02:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. I thought it was probably an oopsie, but I hesitated to add them back, in case there was a reason I didn't know about.  Thanks! Andrew Jameson (talk) 11:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Dummy
Yeah, that was a typo. I just fixed it. :) Andrew Jameson (talk) 00:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Irving Jacob Reuter (Meadovue Estate)in Eaton County, Michigan
Frankly, the article has all the citations concerning Mr. and Mrs. Reuter, and Meadowvue Estate in Eaton County, Michigan. If it is registered, the English Inn webpage (which is cited in the article) is assuredly the best source on the status of the location. If I got it wrong as to the NHRP listing, then I apologize. I know that there is an historic place listing, and it is specifically mentioned by number in the article. I hope that helps in your quest. May the Wiki be with you! Best regards. 7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 22:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC) Stan
 * I concur. 7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC) Stan

WikiProject Baseball Newsletter
--  jj137   ( talk )  03:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!, but I'm not quite done yet with California
If it had just been the descriptions, I would have been done a long time ago, but List of National Historic Landmarks in California pointed at a lot of articles which needed some serious help. Others were in great shape of course. In any case, I've learned a lot about California history and maybe I'll even get a few pictures of some of these when I'm out there next time. Thanks for noticing though! I'll let you know when I'm really done. dm (talk) 02:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey! I finished List of National Historic Landmarks in California.  I'd love it if someone could review the list and the articles.  If you are near any of the sites, it would be great if you could add some pictures.  Thanks! dm (talk) 07:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Table-izing
Glad to hear u r marching thru more RHP lists, table-izing.

If you could tell me that the New York State RHP lists are current, I would like to add the equivalent of "Template:Alabama NRHP date for lists" to all the NY counties. I am just not currently sure how current the NYS county RHP lists are, so I hesitate about adding that. Otherwise, I think i do everything you describe in your table-izing. The one thing i do that you don't mention, is use the footnote i have developed to comment on NRIS coordinates. See its use, for example, List of RHPs in Albany. The template's wording could/should be tightened up, but I think that it is helpful to have a disclaimer about the quality of NRIS coordinates.

It was User:LeheckaG, by the way, who explained how the U.S. Geo Svc's quadrant maps are all a bit off, relative to current geo-positioning. This explains all the List of octagon houses locations being a bit off. Cheers, doncram (talk) 05:55, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You requested at my talk page: "When you table-ize lists, would you please retain any disambiguation links from the original lists? One of the things I do when I work on a table is to check for listings with identical names in other locations. When I find them, I disambiguate the links in the tables or old style lists. As I'm sure you can appreciate, this is painstaking work and I find it very frustrating to go over ground again that I've already covered....".
 * I am sorry if something that I have done has appeared to you to cause more work. I don't understand, however.
 * For your understanding about what I have been doing, I have been doing a whole heckuva lot of disambiguation in the new tables I create. I check all of the old style list entries before I delete them, to capture any information in where they point to.  In many cases I am doing new disambigution which was not reflected in the old style list.  I often use the Elkman tools to identify whether there are other articles of a certain common-looking name, and I create new disambiguation pages to clarify those situations, often.  In many county lists I have done all of the disambiguating that was reflected in the prior list.  In a number of others, I have left work to be done in sections left below titled "to be merged into table above".  I make some edits reducing those sections, and as I do I carefully check whether all disambiguation is properly captured.
 * So, for you to encounter a potentially frustrating situation, I believe that must only be in county lists where I have that additional work-in-process type section. The disambiguation that you fail to find in the table, is still present in the old-style-list entry retained below.  So I think you are encountering work-in-progress.  I have not lost any work.  You can fix up the table entry, or i can, or another editor can.  But the table entry fix-up has to be done by someone.   There's a matter of taste, perhaps, about whether table-izing many counties half-way, or most of the way, as I have done, is better or worse than table-izing fewer counties more fully.  It all has to be done.  I have thought that putting the tables in does empower local editors to add pictures and otherwise get involved, and they can and do a lot of the re-disambiguating.
 * Do you understand what i have been doing, and am I correct in understanding what you are meaning? Please clarify.  Perhaps you could point to any recent examples or any new specific examples if and when they come up.  I certainly don't want to dismiss your concern or to cause frustration.  doncram (talk) 15:40, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have been away for a couple days, and am just catching up on my watchlist, which should include all the NYS county lists that I table-ized. I see your edit on the Schenectady County RHP list is labelled "dab Union Street Historic District; pipe link; dab links that were already dabbed in the old list".  In that edit, you implement 3 disambiguations to the table that were present in the prior list, and you do disambiguation for "Union Street Historic District" that was not present previously.  I think that's fine you chose to enter in and do that, but see no extra work involved in your pitching in vs. me or a local editor doing it.  I think your edit shows unawareness of the list below:  your edit was fine, but in my view it would be further helpful if you would delete the corresponding 4 entries in the list below, as you have now dealt with these ones.  Note, in these 2 edits, i had already removed 8 entries below after verifying coverage above.


 * Also you add one pipe link, converting "Jenkins House (Delanson, New York)" to "Jenkins House (Delanson, New York)|Jenkins House". Honestly, I am not sure such pipe edits are necessary.  I don't feel strongly about this and I am not going to reverse your edit there, but I think it is perhaps better to show clearly in the list that this is perhaps not the only Jenkins House in the world, by showing the article name including the parenthetical expression.  On the other hand, the NRHP listing for this county is simply "Jenkins House".  But it is one of many NRHP listings for Jenkins Houses, so I do not think it is misrepresentation of the NRHP name for the place to add the parenthetical expression.


 * Anyhow, i think that you should understand that your previous work is being respected. Overall, I think you should feel encouraged by the table-ization of Schenectady county, and you could choose freely to do the disambiguating or to leave it to others without frustration.  Or, do you think that more clearly labelling the work to be done in the list-article is needed?  Given your comments, anyhow, I will spend some more time in doing more of the processing/disambiguation work, which I agree needs to be done, sometime. doncram (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I responded further just now about a couple of these issues in the "A request" section you had opened at my talk page. Basically i agree with u about everything, but pls. see.  Also, Daniel Case started and I finished up updating the New York State RHP lists through the new 8/29/2008 NPS new listings.  I was able to indicate that easily in the update template for the state.  And I am starting to work backwards through the new listings, too, going back from 8/8/2008 new listings to capture all the info in each week's announcements for NYS listings so as to add those properly into the tables now in place for every New York county.  i am thinking i need to go back to the week of April 1, 2008 new listing to capture everything, as after that (knock on wood) the Elkman-generated tables will have all of them.  Does that sound right?  Anyhow, i am plugging along.  New York State has more than 10% of the NHLs in the nation;  I wonder what is its percentage of the NRHPs.  There are a lot of them, anyhow, with more than 500 in New York County alone, and significant numbers in all 62 counties of the state, each with a separate page (or multiple pages).  If it averaged 50 per county that would be 3000 RHPs, but i am guessing it is more than that.  I will count them up sometime and put the counts into a table at the statewide List of RHPs in NY.  Cheers, doncram (talk) 00:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the offer about your spreadsheet of recent NRHP listings. I did already click through all the new listings back to the beginning of April, finding that the early april ones were already captured in Elkman's county tables for NY.
 * It is taking me forever to go thru the counties in NY, doing that extra work of all the disambiguating and otherwise checking/capturing info from old list entries below. Just now, it took me over an hour to do that processing for List of Registered Historic Places in Steuben County, New York.  It has just 47 RHPs, below average for NY.  I have been doing the extra processing for smaller counties first.  Steuben had some complications relative to some others, as it involved creating several new disambiguation pages (then i feel obligated to create one article so there's at least one bluelink on the disambig page) and there was one boundary increase to capture (which I do by creating the NRHP article and adding the boundary increase info into the infobox).  But different types of complications, like incorrect locations and obviously wrong coordinates, did not come up in Steuben's case.  (Update: i hadn't checked the Google map yet, now i do see one of those problems, so i am still not done with Steuben yet.)  If i assumed it takes 30 seconds per entry, then given that NY has about 5,000 RHPs statewide (i can see this now in a table of them counted up in List of RHPs in NY), and perhaps 1200 are covered in counties i've fully processed (indicated also in the table), that means more than 30 hours of work remains!  And that's after Mwanner stepped in and finished the processing for a couple medium sized counties in his Adirondacks bailiwick.  And that's after spending a good amount of time upfront putting in the tables and doing some initial processing in each of the counties, and after separately processing all the recent additions.  The work does get other useful stuff done.  I'm curious, how long is it taking you to do counties?  And any suggestions for speeding up? doncram (talk) 15:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply and time estimates. I think the time that you and i are putting in on this table-izing is time well-spent.  It's too hard to compare in exact terms if you are being more efficient in ways i could learn from, but it sounds in general we are putting in about the same amount of time.  And it is a lot of time.  I don't really want to put in all that time, but i also would not be happy about a lot of other people doing it, as there is a fair amount of commitment involved to do a good job.  Since List of Registered Historic Places in Burlington County, New Jersey does have 88 entries, it makes sense to me that it would take a bit longer.  I notice that you, or someone, needs to do stuff at the top of that article.  In the NY articles I have a pretty standard intro text which i modify slightly, at least to mention how many NHLs there are in the county.  It includes a standardized footnote with a disclaimer about uncertain NRIS coordinates (which is in a template, so it can be modified centrally).  I notice the compact TOC in the Burlington article is not the same as the one in the overall List of Registered Historic Places in New Jersey.  Notably there is no link to Burlington county from the overall NJ one.  If you're including such a TOC in multiple articles, it should be in a template that is called from each of the articles, but of course you must know that.  Vive la difference-wise, you are just focusing on slightly different stuff, in a slightly different order.  Perhaps you are waiting to do that top stuff at the end of the state, while i chose to do some top and bottom stuff for all the articles, up front.
 * Relative to what you are doing, I put more emphasis on creating disambig pages and less on going and changing other county lists to dablink them. I think it's okay to leave the other-county link unchanged, as long as it is pointing to the disambiguation page.  Or if the disambig page must be created by moving, first, an existing NRHP article to a more specific name, I don't mind not checking and updating all the articles that linked there already.  What needs to be done is clear to other editors, if they follow a link and find it now leads to a disambiguation page.  With new disambig pages where there is not already an article, I create the disambig and further create one NRHP article so there's one bluelink on the new disambig page, but that's not really necessary, the important thing is to to get the disambig page started, in my view.  Also, I am making a point of collecting and reporting errors in NRIS and/or Elkman, in the wp:NRIS info issues list.  I fully intend and expect to get the National Register to fix a bunch of errors in their system, using that.  If you notice outright errors in location county, state, or in RHP name, or other errors, I would appreciate your noting them on this list.
 * Overall i guess i feel encouraged. It just is a lot of work, i am not crazy in allowing it to take so long.  And i am really glad you are doing it in other states.  I may be the only one who ever really really understands what you've been doing!  Cheers, doncram (talk) 23:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I appreciate what you are doing too. It is a lot of work. I'm still concentrating on fixing up NHL articles; I'm about 2/3 through my second pass on all of them; maybe if I "finish", I'll move to table-izing too. But there's still a fair amount of NHL work to do. So - thanks.--Appraiser (talk) 14:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Wallpack/Walpack, New Jersey
This has come up before and I will do some research to confirm one way or the other. Alansohn (talk) 22:27, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * this link, from Sussex County, New Jersey, uses the single-L spelling for both Township and Center. A search on ZIP code 07881 shows a double-L spelling, and there are news article sources for both, but I think that the single-L version predominates. I would stick with Walpack Center, New Jersey. Alansohn (talk) 22:33, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

WA NRHP
Geez, that's a weird one. i've been trying to spend what little time I have just getting the tables made, now I guess I've got another little chore to do. I suppose I'll split out Whatcom and Spokane counties as soon as I can, though I doubt it'll be before next week. Thanks for the tip!!! Murderbike (talk) 00:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

sortable dates for List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in the San Fernando Valley
Hi Sanfranman59 -- Hey, Cbl62 has List of Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments in the San Fernando Valley teed up for DYK imminently, having taken and added a zillion photos, with only a little help by me. But one thing we didn't do is convert dates to date sortable format. You've offered before to do this, and must have a more efficient way than i do, which i remember when i start into doing it manually. I got through just the first two entries. Could you process this one? It would be most appreciated. P.S. I've appreciated a few key remarks you've made in wt:NRHP in recent weeks. doncram (talk) 05:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * THANKS! doncram (talk) 05:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Nevada County, CA NRHP table?
Hi Sanfranman. I'm stumped. I remember thinking about creating a separate article with the Nevada County table, as it took so long to load the state page, but it seems unusual that I wouldn't have followed through with creating the county article. I'm going to fix this now. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Me, too... I also wondered why some counties had both a list and a table. I'd say, delete the list if there's an accurate table. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

NRHP table help
While adding tables to a few small counties in Kansas, I noticed that you've added some recently-listed properties to the counties I tabled: the Oxley Barn in Gove County, and the Antelope Lake Park in Graham County. These aren't listed in the Elkman generator that I used to create the tables; could you please improve their entries on the list, if possible? Nyttend (talk) 14:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've sent the email. Thanks for your help!  Nyttend (talk) 04:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Nyttend feedback on table-izing
Hi Sanfranman, could you please comment at User talk:Nyttend? I think that if you could provide a Kansas extract out of your NRHP new listings spreadsheet, that would be helpful to Nyttend, and I mentioned that. I think other feedback might be helpful to Nyttend, too. Thanks! doncram (talk) 18:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for helping with that. :)


 * I noticed you revised what was a redlink to "Phillips House" from a house in the Poughkeepsie list. I just went and created the disambig page Phillips House now.  What you did seems correct because it was not a unique name, but it seems odd to me that you didn't create the disambiguation page.  I am, myself, confidently creating disambig pages like this one.  It's not too much work.  I am not bothering with creating two articles to justify its existence;  i think the long discussion on NRHP disambiguation at wikiproject disambiguation was enough to get it across that these are legit.  Anyhow, keep up the good work.  I won't be on as much until the end of the year, probably.  cheers, doncram (talk) 03:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Help at Cincinnati
Hi there, you seem to be the person to come to about this kind of stuff. OHIO, HAMILTON COUNTY,

Sedamsville River Road Historic District,

2449-2734 River Rd., 309-317 Mt. Hope and 604 Mt. Echo,

Cincinnati, 08000975,

LISTED, 10/10/08

I can't understand the numbering system used on the article, and don't want to screw anything up. What is the correct way to add this new listing? §hep  •   ¡Talk to me!  21:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the reply. §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  17:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

An invitation to join WikiProject Ohio
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RfD nomination of a template redirect
I have nominated a redirect to a template for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you.  MBisanz  talk 14:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

California NRHP List
I just now saw the main California list. I like it! A lot! I like the combination of pictures and you represent both Northern and Southern California. I thinki that all states hould be set up this way! Good job! Einbierbitte (talk) 18:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Santa Fe Depot of Pauls Valley
I just found out that it was listed from NRHP.com. I was hoping it would have more detail, but I'm glad you found the exact year it was built. DanTD (talk) 17:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Did you talk to them on the phone, or via e-mail? If it's the latter, could you show them the link, and see if they can explain this? In the meantime, I'm going to check the NRHP's official site just to be sure. DanTD (talk) 17:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * NRHP.gov doesn't have the station listed separatley from the Historic District. If I'm wrong, I still want to know why there's a separate listing for the station itself. We may have to contact the feds about this. DanTD (talk) 17:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I realize they're not affiliated with the government, which is why I checked the government site to be sure. As for NRHP.com, they actually have a registration number for the station. So if it's not registered, how did they get that number in the first place? The only scenario I can imagine is that it might've been a site that was registered separatley in the past. DanTD (talk) 23:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That would seem to make a lot more sense. Would you have any objections to the idea of rewriting it as a contributing property? DanTD (talk) 00:20, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I may consider noting the attempted nomination. DanTD (talk) 00:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If you find anything else about the historical aspects of the station(including whether or not it truly is part of the historic district), feel free to post a message on my talk page. DanTD (talk) 07:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Lake Fish Hatchery Historic District
I'm going by nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com, which lists it in Park County but not in Teton County. Before I placed the table, LFHHD was already listed in Park County in the simple unformatted list on the List of RHPs in WY, but not in Teton County. Nyttend (talk) 17:01, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I knew that the other website is unofficial, but I find the official website confusing enough that I'm often...well...confused by it. Thanks for not being confused :-)  Nyttend (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there any chance, perhaps, that it's in both counties? At any rate, I'm loth to do anything myself with this property listing until I have it all figured out. Nyttend (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've learned that Elkman is sometimes incorrect — thus my move to Park County — but I've not had enough experience to know what some situations look like. Thanks for using your experience to relieve my confusion :-)  Nyttend (talk) 17:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've placed few tables, and I see that you get congratulations, for example, for California. What you say makes sense when I consider the nr.nps.gov listings and the rest.  I'm confused, and you don't seem to be.  Hence: I trust you in this :-)  I don't remember encountering much of any discrepancies, but as I say I've not used nr.nps.gov much, probably less than I should.  I need to eat lunch; I'll get the district problem fixed in a bit here.  Nyttend (talk) 18:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)