User talk:Sapphiremind

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Speedy deletion nomination of One World by Night
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File:The princess bride 20th anniversary edition dvd.jpg listed for deletion
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Speedy deletion nomination of File:Jackdesenadult.jpg


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July 2020
Please do not add or change content, as you did at Health effects of tea, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Find better reputable sources for your content. The section you're trying to add is a dead-end. There are no WP:MEDRS reviews to indicate any health (or even harm) effects of consuming normal amounts of green tea.'' Zefr (talk) 18:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The LiverTox article and its sources are mostly outdated (WP:MEDDATE, within 5 years) and are more about GTE than the 'health effects of tea'. Reversion of your edit here was warranted because the information is off topic for tea and health content, poorly sourced for tea itself (mostly about GTE-catechin weight loss supplements), and uses WP:SYNTH to present an unwarranted conclusion for the encyclopedia. It also gave medical advice, which is discouraged, WP:NOTADVICE. A trimmed version and the LiverTox source may be useful for the Catechin-Research section. Zefr (talk) 20:55, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * livertox.gov is a clearinghouse database for reference, much like a drug reference book. It's like not allowing PDR information because there is not current research on aspirin. There's also a difference between asking for better sources that are likely available because someone is referencing legitimate medical information and taking the information down entirely because of your pique. If you would go to pubmed, the green tea page is listed as updated 2018.  Green Tea. In: LiverTox:  This one is with plain green tea. This one is black tea, but there would be little way to know if there was green tea contamination.  And there's more


 * It is appropriate for tea health effects because it can happen from consumption, especially with teas that are supplemented, as well as other things that are labeled to include "green tea". It is not off-topic in the least. It is a risk, albeit rare. And the "medical advice" which is: don't re-expose if negative reaction prior is a pretty far stretch to have an issue with it. In some ways it functions like an allergy, and it is common knowledge that continued reexposure has the potential to amplify negative effects. That could be changed wording if that would make you happy, but it is not grounds for removing the information whole cloth.


 * Those who have an idiosyncratic drug reaction to green tea extract are told to never expose themselves to green tea in any form ever again. That means checking cosmetics, gum, textiles, soaps, shampoos, flavored water, and really almost everything. It is not a dose dependent reaction. Prior to my liver failure, I had never been exposed to green tea period, so there's no way to know whether I would have reacted to plain green tea or not. I'm not going to ever re-challenge myself because again, I was days from death the first time.


 * The health effects of tea is not labeled to be solely a "benefits" listing, or "frequently occurring" listing, but the health effects. Is green tea extract composed of tea?  Yes.  It is.  Does it very rarely cause severe life-threatening reactions?  Yes. It does.  You seem to be making a value judgement about it being a potential negative.


 * And finally, while it would be appropriate to include it in catechin research, it is also a substance composed entirely of tea so it is completely appropriate to also be present in discussions of tea. --Sapphiremind (talk) 07:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The 'rare' risk from tea consumption (not taking GTE in capsule form) means that is not clearly notable for an encyclopedia, WP:UNDUE. We're not writing a guide, blog, advice website, or conjecture on what may happen if excessive tea extract (a commercial process which concentrates the catechin density) is consumed, but rather are providing for users encyclopedic content about the health effects of tea consumption as supported by WP:MEDRS reviews. If you have a strong specific review source on tea in a reputable journal, then we could consider this further as a sentence under By conditions. Meanwhile, PMID 25975988 seems to me as the most specific source on tea itself, and could support a statement. Zefr (talk) 15:44, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Again, that seems to be a judgment call - there are many rare things that are in wikipedia and it isn't so rare that there is no literature on it. But GTE contains green tea, which makes it appropriate for the page. Livertox was last updated in 2018, even though it doesn't look like that on first glance. There are no other ingredients in GTE that would make it more appropriate somewhere else. All of the journals I listed above are reputable journals. I'm honestly puzzled by your insistence on hiding it. --Sapphiremind (talk) 18:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You have your argument upside down: the article is about the health effects of tea. There is a possibility that catechins from tea (GTE) may cause untoward health effects if overconsumed or if intentionally used as a therapy, as discussed for each of the conditions and the reviews under By conditions. In any dispute, you should follow WP:RCD by inviting other editors to the article talk page so a consensus can be reached, WP:CON. If you don't know editor histories on this subject, post a discussion at WT:MED where there are several medical experts. Zefr (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * This is where we have misunderstanding. GTE effects are not dose dependent and are not solely applicable if used in a therapy. GTE is added to a variety of products, included flavored waters and even tea preparations. It does not need to be taken in a pill form. The page is not the health benefits of tea, but the effects. I am not familiar with the other things, and likely will give up, as I'm sure is your goal.  I'm a medical professional and try to update the wikipedia pages within my knowledge base when I run into them.  I actually came upon the page because I was double checking the differences between green tea and others, to help me remember that the fermented leaves are safe, and the green tea is unfermented, which makes it different from other teas, which led me to click on the health effects, because I wanted to make sure that it included the risks of GTE, which are well-established, but not well-known. You seem to be very insistent that only the benefits are discussed and so congrats, you win. This should have been an easy edit and has turned into a nightmare, because you want to be the gatekeeper of what effects are allowed and you don't like negative things about tea, clearly. --19:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)