User talk:Sarah777/Archive 12

Wikification: Ballyconnell
As part of WikiProject: Wikify I've been keeping an eye on new articles tagged with to help prevent an enormous backlog. I noticed you tagged Ballyconnell just today, however when I took a look at it, it didn't seem that it needed to be wikified. If there is something I am missing please let me know and I'll fix up the article. Thank you! Bvlax2005 (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I removed a lot of stuff from the article and thought I'd still missed a lot so having no time to do more, I tagged it. Reading it now I agree the tag is unnessecary and have removed it. Thanks for your attention! Sarah777 (talk) 09:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not a problem! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something before the tag was removed.  :)   Bvlax2005 (talk) 10:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You might find this amusing.
[edit] British Isles "Life would've been much easier, if the term British Isles had never been invented." Nonsense. This term was invented thousands of years before Irish nationalism (really just ethnic extremisim) reared its ugly head. It's not as if the British invented the term (which has always included the Irish.) Life would've been much easier, if the self-styled Irish Republic had not been allowed to break away from the rest of the British nation. Still, lets hope its only a temporary disgrace and insult to national pride heh and long may live the term British Isles, whether the hateful separatists with their anglophobia like it or not. Christopedia (talk) 01:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh I'm also confident something will work out as well in the long run, not just any something but something very close to that which my heart desires. The nation will be reunited, but should never have been divided. There is much to be done and there is much that needs to change, but it is no longer in our hands. It's just frustrating in the meantime and it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon but it will one day, of that I have no doubt and I can certainly wait. People cannot live in ignorance forever. There is a long way to go but each day that passes is one day closer. It is just a tragedy and a shame that the nation ever had to be divided in the first place. Christopedia (talk) 20:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The British people can always join Canada and be United under the one crown. The Canadians would love to have part of the United Kingdom that resides in the British West Indies (the Turks and Caicos Islands) so how about taking the mainland territories in Europe and all? Then only Russia would beat us in terms of land area and we would have a population not far off 100 million strong. Sounds good to me! Christopedia (talk) 20:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't know me but i found this bile when i was reading discussions on british isles and stuff and i agreed with alot of your arguements so i crudely pasted this nonsense for you to have a look at i don't know what type of influence you have on wikipedia but maybe you should watch out for this "Christopedia" character if he begins to edit things you have an interest in.Delete this when you like and keep up the good work i'm happy their are people like yourself on these pages good morning.


 * Hmmmmm. I must look into User talk:Christopedia. Sarah777 (talk) 20:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, at least G'Day and Christo are agreed the Big Foot corpse was a hoax.....Sarah777 (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Life would've been much easier... quote's author? is me. My meaning was, there'd be less disputes on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oooops! Sorry G'Day - I meant the Bigfoot corpse was a hoax; I'm sure that Big Foot one was real. Sarah777 (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've got Bigfoots (or is that Bigfeet?) living in my woods. Their fur is very unfocused (thus the blur in the photos). PS- I wish they'd learn to stop leaving droppings in my backyard. GoodDay (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikification: Ballyconnell
As part of WikiProject: Wikify I've been keeping an eye on new articles tagged with to help prevent an enormous backlog. I noticed you tagged Ballyconnell just today, however when I took a look at it, it didn't seem that it needed to be wikified. If there is something I am missing please let me know and I'll fix up the article. Thank you! Bvlax2005 (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I removed a lot of stuff from the article and thought I'd still missed a lot so having no time to do more, I tagged it. Reading it now I agree the tag is unnessecary and have removed it. Thanks for your attention! Sarah777 (talk) 09:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not a problem! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something before the tag was removed.  :)   Bvlax2005 (talk) 10:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ireland/ROI Questions at Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)
This is a courtesy notice to say that the three original 'polls' (now called "Questions") at Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) (here), were amended during the voting process. This was due to initial confusion in their meaning. They are now unambiguous, and fully according to their original intent. You might like to check your contribution. --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:26, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Jolly good show
I'm delighted, Sarah. GoodDay (talk) 21:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Pipelinking of RoI
Hello Sarah. I hope someday Republic of Ireland gets moved to Ireland (state), but I'm not holding my breath. GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Upon reflection, I think simply Ireland would be the most appropriate with "Ireland may also refer to the Island of Ireland or to Northern Ireland". Sarah777 (talk) 22:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Or maybe "Ireland may also refer to the Island of Ireland or to Northern Ireland (failed entity)" Sarah777 (talk) 22:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Nah; the island has had the name (Ireland), much longer then the republic. GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As you should be aware by now the longevity of a name counts for nothing on Wikipedia. Common usage uber alles. Sarah777 (talk) 22:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I had the idea of [Republic of Ireland|Ireland (state)] as a compromise pipelink; but it got rejected (I can't remember where & by whom). GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'd have to congratulate those who rejected it! T'would certainly be totally unacceptable to me. Sarah777 (talk) 22:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You guys/gals on Wikipedia, are a tough audience. GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

PS- Now I know how a door-to-door salesman feels, geez my foot is getting sore. GoodDay (talk) 23:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe you're selling something nobody wants?! Sarah777 (talk) 23:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

At least it's something that you & Tharky agree on (though not the way I hoped). Maybe, I'll have better luck with encyclopedias (ironically enough). GoodDay (talk) 23:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As an astute observer of propaganda I am aware that a common technique is to propose a variant of one argument and claim it is the "MIDDLE GROUND" between that and its opposite! Sarah777 (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I'm destined for the funny farm, Sarah. If I'm taken their, promise to visit? Anyways, I'm gonna sit back for awhile; watch how things unfold on the disputed articles. GoodDay (talk) 23:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course. The Funny Farm wouldn't be the same without you! Sarah777 (talk) 23:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Giggle giggle, thanks. GoodDay (talk) 23:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Sarah777 (talk) 00:05, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hiya Sarah (I've returned from the funny-farm). Are you sure it's a good thing to continuing pipe-linking RoI, while that page's movement request is being considered? GoodDay (talk) 00:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm following policy. If they are daft enough to impose British POV on this issue then I'd run the risk of persecution. So best to do the right thing and assume that the Wiki powers won't institute the imposition of British POV on Irish articles. Sarah777 (talk) 00:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I hope you're not wasting your time, cheers. GoodDay (talk) 00:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I never look on attempts to improve this project as 'wasting time'. Sarah777 (talk) 00:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Check. GoodDay (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

NowCommons: Image:IMG 0212w.JPG
Image:IMG 0212w.JPG is now available on Wikimedia Commons as Commons:Image:LUAS light rail into underpass.jpg. This is a repository of free media that can be used on all Wikimedia wikis. The image will be deleted from Wikipedia, but this doesn't mean it can't be used anymore. You can embed an image uploaded to Commons like you would an image uploaded to Wikipedia, in this case:. Note that this is an automated message to inform you about the move. This bot did not copy the image itself. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 23:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Does that mean the image has been removed from the article? Sarah777 (talk) 23:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No. It appears not! Sarah777 (talk) 23:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Nationalist
Hi Sarah, I replied to your comments here because I think it's wrong to try and categorise editors into Irish Nationalist or British Nationalist. I am aware that both categories exist on Wikipedia but everyone should take note that there are people who don't want to be classed as either. There are many people like me who were born British because of partition, who are loyal and law abiding citizens of the UK, but who also have a deep and intense pride in being Irish. Why do we have to be one or the other?The Thunderer (talk) 10:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I reckon Irishness is a state of mind. A key element in the very essence of Irishness, a defining element, is a belief in Independence. The Unionists often don't regard themselves as Irish and will always describe themselves as British first and Irish second. Nationalists in NI regard themselves as British only in an accidental technical sense, and have no loyalty at all to the British state other than what is required to function day to day. And there are what would have been called "Castle Catholics" in times gone by; folk in the RoI who deep down (or not so deep down) think independence was wrong/a mistake - they are a tiny minority but I believe heavily over-represented in the media.


 * Anyway, this is all beside the point; Irish editors who take a particular stance are habitually dismissed as "nationalists" by other editors (mainly British) - as exemplified by Matt's "cabal" remarks to me. And yet there is near outrage when I describe them in the exact same terms! As a simple matter of objective fact I'd say Matt's comments add to an open admission of his British Nationalism. I'm always amused why British Nationalists (not confined to Wiki) are so loath to describe themselves, or to be described as "nationalist" - something Freudian I suspect. But I'm a great believer in the duck test. And I do usually WP:AGF- I think because of cultural conditioning many British people (and Americans btw) who are very nationalistic are not even aware of it.


 * But denial isn't a way forward. And I have never said that all British editors are anything; merely observed that a lot of editors who are engaged in the Irish/British interface on Wiki patently are. Sarah777 (talk) 10:24, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You are entitled to your beliefs however I see in your explanation above the same fundamental flaw in rudimentary Nationalism as I see from all ardent Irish Nationalists and that is the failure to see the Unionist perspective. They don't want to be part of a United Ireland and they have the right to their independence from the Irish state.   The Castle Catholics you refer to are properly termed Empire Loyalists and there were hundreds of thousands of them and still are quite a few, although many of them were killed or expelled during the pogroms which went on in Ireland between 1919-1930.   Many Irish Nationalist folk heroes, like O'Connell and Parnell were in fact constitutional reformers and Unionists, not advocates of independence. Nationalism in the rest of the UK carries a different meaning.   It has dark connotations, particularly when one considers the British National Party and many people do not want their pride in their country to be mistaken for the type of hatred spawned by the BNP. That's why there is near outrage when you describe British people as Nationalist.   You also should be aware that the same cultural conditioning you describe applies to you and all other Irish people too, whatever province they come from because we all live with our own victor's version of the post-rising period in Ireland and North or South it has all been artificially enhanced to give the indoctrinated a sense of being.   To summarise, it is incumbent upon all human beings to give respect and dignity to others they come across in life.   That sometimes includes paying lip service to their political or personal views.  As a an Irishman who carries a British passport, like so many hundreds of thousands more, I would respectfully suggest that Nationalistic views should be tempered with common sense during discussion.   After all, you're not going to make the Unionists want to be part of the utopian United Ireland by being hostile to them - are you?  Perhaps if you stroke their fur the right way you'll convince Ian Paisley to vote Sinn Fein.The Thunderer (talk) 13:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I have made it clear at various times in these debates that I don't want to make NI Unionists do anything; a United Ireland isn't something I'm very fussed about, frankly. But total, unambiguous recognition of the essential non-Britishness of my country, Ireland, is as important to me as it is for the Germans to distance themselves from their brutish Imperial past.Sarah777 (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ireland as a state however is non-British. Northern Ireland on the other hand is British by self determination - the same self determination which allows you to be Irish.   As for the Germans, methinks that argument is over simplified.  Not all Germans were/are brutish.   Bear in mind the actions of Oglaigh na hEireann in the Congo - the slaughter of hundreds of innocent women and children.   That doesn't make all Irish people, or even all Irish soldiers baby killers.The Thunderer (talk) 17:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (1) I'm not talking about NI. (2) You may harbour the pov that the German and British Empires are not equivalent - I disagree. (3) I didn't say all Germans (or British) were/are brutish - their Empires were. (4) I have no idea what you are talking about baby-killing in the Congo but even if it were trues it wouldn't imply all Irish folk were "brutish"; just as the genocidal British and German Empires didn't make all their subjects brutish.
 * A tip: if you are going to comment here please read what I say and respond to that rather than attribute things to me I didn't say. Sarah777 (talk) 17:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The entire thrust of what I'm saying has Northern Ireland, Ireland and the United Kingdom inextricably linked, as they truly are.  It's part of my argument about Nationalism.  Nor am I being critical but your statements are very sweeping and generalise a lot.  You say the British & German Empires were brutal and genocidal but that is patently untrue of the British Empire in particular which was extremely benevolent in the majority and primarily based on trade.    Now if you'd said the Belgian Empire - diiferent matter altogether.  It's a misconception to take incidents which suit an argument and then try to fit the evidence around those detrimental facts.  That's why I gave the example of the Irish Army in the Congo.  Every nation makes mistakes and it is our mistake to hold those over them.   As for addressing your points, that's what I thought I was doing.  I'm sorry if my command of the language is somehow lacking.The Thunderer (talk) 17:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * that is patently untrue of the British Empire in particular which was extremely benevolent in the majority and primarily based on trade. Th, if you believe that (which I doubt) there is really not enough common ground between us to even think of having a civil discussion. Better we stop right now. To my mind that is simply a version of holocaust denial.Sarah777 (talk) 18:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not. There is no parallel whatsoever between the premeditated intent of the Wansee Agreement and the running of the British Empire.   If you want to back out of a discussion because you think the British are murdering thugs who had an agenda for killing throughout their history then that's not painting a very pretty picture of your judgement.  There's no justifying anything which may have happened in the past but neither is there any need to hold it up as an example that a particular culture is genocidal. Discussion is about presenting points, which I'm doing.  What you've done so far is to make a series of unfounded, sweeping statements about other cultures.  Where's the rationale in that?The Thunderer (talk) 09:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You should go and talk to some Australian indigenous people Thunderer, genocide is pretty appropriate there. Look at the concentration camps in South Africa, the massacres that followed the Indian Mutiny (I could go on).  It does with being an Empire.  If you grow up in one you tend to hear the history from the sunny side of the fence.  -- Snowded   TALK  09:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There was no policy of genocide against the Aborigines by the British Empire. If you say on the other hand that the de facto government (many of whom were Irish) pursued a campaign against them then I'd agree but it was very unlike the US persecution of the Native Americans.  I have looked at the concentration camps in South Africa and it's very evident that, once the British realised their mistake, they took radical action to alleviate the suffering of those incarcerated.  Regardless of how I grew up or in what circumstances (quite impoverished actually) I have a sound mind and am able to examine history and make judgements based on what was custom and practice at any given time.   In an empire like the British example where there is such longevity you will find manifold examples of cruelty, but then go on to examine why.  The Indian Mutiny for example, WHY did Brigadier Nicholson (an Irishman) take such punitive action against the rebels?   What cruelty was inflicted against British women and children to provoke such a reaction?The Thunderer (talk) 10:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Its best to be honest about this sort of stuff Thunderer. There was a de facto policy of Genocide. Aboriginals were classified on the census as flora and fauna until 1967. I remember when two activists I was working with in the 70's were were shot the police reaction was "there're just abbos, whats the problem. Concentration camps were official British Policy in South Africa when it turned counter productive the policy was changed - not out of any humanity.  The reaction to the Indian Mutiny was as you hint barbaric (imperial reaction albeit with Irish officers).  We can go on to talk about the sustained and systematic use of torture in the Malaysian insurgency (and I could bring in the black and tans as well).  I could go on to the systematic elimination of local language in Canada, Wales and Ireland and others.  Its common to all empires, the British may have been a bit better than some, worse than others.  We should acknowledge it, not try to hide behind myths that it was all about economics.   While we may not be personally responsible for the actions of our forebears, our status as a nation and our standard of living come from that period - so we have to take some share of the responsibility I am afraid.-- Snowded   TALK  21:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You say "once the British realised their mistake, they took radical action to alleviate the suffering of those incarcerated." I believe the mistake they made was allowing the world press to find out. Do you really believe they did not know what they were doing? As far as Irishman are concerned, don't forget, they were representing the British Empire. I may be wrong in this, but I feel when you use the words de facto government you are attempting to distance it from Britain itself. When Britain was invaded by the Romans and slaughtered the inhabitants do you blame the Roman governor (de facto government) or Rome? I am British as I assume you are, we are not responsible for the deeds of the past governments of Britain, but sometimes we have to hold our hands up to the wrongs that were done by our country and it's politicians. Skipper 360 (talk) 19:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm not an apologist for the British Empire and that's being straight but in different times, different things were acceptable. Too many people jump on the "Concentration Camp" aspect of the Boer Wars, totally forgetting that the concept HAD been used before by many nations. It was in the British Parliament where most pressure to bear on Kitchener to relieve the suffering of internees and it was the British Government who set up the Fawcett Commission. The Irish and the British Empire are inextricably linked as many Irishmen supported it and were part of its machinations, given that the Kingdom of Ireland was part of the United Kingdon after 1800. The actions of Roman Governors are exactly the same thing. Carried out by a de facto government whose ability to communicate with it's home base meant that some decisions had to be taken locally and urgently. These may seem horrific or just plain wrong to us today but we must bear in mind that they were "of their time" when what appears to be barbaric now, was pretty normal. My point here is: while we are not responsible for the actions of our forbears, nor should those actions be held up as an example that our culture, Irish culture, French culture, German culture was in any way genocidal or brutish. No more than it was unpatriotic for Irish folk heroes like Dan O'Connell or Parnell to be constitutional reformers rather than the more popular "Nationalist" (pro-independence, pro Catholic) figures in modern Republicanism. Just as it's wrong to label pro-British supporters "Nationalist" because the inference is much darker than when applied in the Irish context because of different political developments in both countries. I am one of those fortunate people who, by virtue of now non-existentent Irish legislation, am both British (born and bred) but Irish too by right - and proud to be both.The Thunderer (talk) 19:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And another thing Thunderer. Wellington (Duke) was born in Dublin but when told he was Irish in later years he said "being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse". So don't go quoting servants of the Empire as "Irishmen". They were either Anglo settlers or loathsome quislings who were generally topped by the real Irish at the first opportunity. Every occupation in history has had its collaborators and traitors. Sarah777 (talk) 19:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Topped by the Irish" - doesn't that make the Irish barbaric and brutish? Isn't it proof of the ethnic cleansing that went on in the West and South West between 1919-1935?   Or is it further evidence of popular support for Fascist Blueshirts who fought for Franco in the Irish Brigade?  The same Fascists who were banned by oul Eamonn himself - that's Mr de Valera to you, the man who banned the IRA when it outlived it's usefulness for him.   Oh yes, we Irish can weave a tale ok and very nearly (almost) convince others of our totaly innocence in anything controversial.The Thunderer (talk) 19:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And another thing - it was the Irish merchants who tried to charge the starving for the corn which Britain had sent to relieve the suffering of the starving during the 2nd famine. These weren't "servants of the Empire" they were the same gombeen men who'd rob you blind in all parts of the country now.  Ireland's as big a shitehole as anywhere else in the world.  Full of the same eejits, North & South, who want to convince you that they, and only their version of history, is correct.  We're the ones who they hope will fall for it - some of us do, some of us don't.  I consider myself to be amongst the latter.The Thunderer (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a Donald Duck Nationalist, if anybody's interested. GoodDay (talk) 19:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Can anyone join the Donald Duck Nationalist party? The DDNP? Who are we trying to break away from, Disney? Skipper 360 (talk) 19:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't proof that there was ethnic cleansing in Free Ireland; there wasn't. But the servants of the Crown were often dispatched (long before Independence) like the criminals they were. No apology required; they were the equivalent of the occupiers and collaborators in France. The folk who supported the Blueshirts were actually anti-Republicans including large numbers of former British operatives. And even they remained safe in Free Ireland - once they had been de-fanged. Sarah777 (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dont't forget, quislings or not they were still Irishmen with different politics, right or wrong. Skipper 360 (talk) 19:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. Like Wellington, unless they identified with Ireland and Irishness they weren't Irish in any meaningful sense; it is an identity more than a race. And NO former colony commemorates its traitors. Ireland ain't unique in that - though we may be unique in our tolerance of them. Sarah777 (talk) 19:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ireland was controlled by the British when the famine was allowed rage as the third or fourth major physical and cultural genocide in the long centuries of attempted conquest and absorption. Fortunately for us we were more numerous and less vulnerable than the Tasmanians; had Gas Chamber technology existed in the Imperial British heyday I have no doubt they'd have been pressed into service. Only a fool could doubt that when you look at the tens of millions killed at the hands of that Brutal Empire across the globe. Sarah777 (talk) 19:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Your above statements are absolute crazy rhetoric. It's that type of talk which has killed thousands of Irish people since 1916. You should be ashamed of yourself for espousing such views against another culture, a culture which your own government said could live happily alongside Catholic Nationalists in the "New Ireland".  How does it feel to break an olive branch across your knee or are you too busy strangling white doves to answer?The Thunderer (talk) 19:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this could be a case of not forgetting but not letting it rule your life and your thoughts. Life is far to short for hatred. Skipper 360 (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Less of the personal attacks please. I supported the GFA; the NI Unionists can have any identity they wish - including their current choice which is to be British rather than Irish. But that doesn't  mean I'm going to pretend the past was other than it was for the sake of 'peace in our time'. Sarah777 (talk) 20:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more Skipper. Sarah, with the greatest of respect, you're not coming across well on this.  Why so much hatred?The Thunderer (talk) 20:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to bear in mind Sarah, that for those of us who grew up through the violence, it isn't the past.  It's still with us and always will be.  If we can forgive that then the least we can expect is for anyone harbouring anti-British sentiments because of something, real or imagined, which happened 100-400 years ago to exercise the same benevolence of thought.The Thunderer (talk) 20:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Do the Germans and their neighbours have to pretend the Third Reich never existed in order to get along peacefully today? Is being honest about the past being "hateful"? Are the Jews "hateful" for commemorating the Holocaust? (As distinct from using it as justification for their own Imperialism). You guys sure have trouble escaping your conditioning, don't you? Sarah777 (talk) 20:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What conditioning would that be then Sarah - the conditioning that makes an individual want to live peacefully with his neighbours or the one which makes people want to go out and get guns or bombs to kill members of their own community?The Thunderer (talk) 20:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And please do not  assume you were the only person affected by "the Troubles", OK? Sarah777 (talk) 20:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm presuming you read the sentence which said those of us who grew up through the violence? The word those intimating a plural.  That being the case why accuse me of "assuming I am the only person affected by the troubles?"The Thunderer (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * My original point was that we should be honest about the past. I believe it is the only way countries and people can move on. Skipper 360 (talk) 20:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Honesty yes, but wearing it like a badge in order to condemn another culture - NO! The Thunderer (talk) 20:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Certainly not todays culture. Skipper 360 (talk) 20:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It manages to condemn itself. The Thunderer (talk) 20:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK Th; then don't assume that only your side were the victims. The British State uses bombs on civilians this very day (Iraq? Afghanistan? - perfect continuity) The IRA have stopped; the Irish Government never started. So don't be so precious and self-righteous and hypocritical. When you are finished clapping each other on the back maybe read some current affairs! Sarah777 (talk) 20:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Where did I appear to assume any such thing? I said clearly - those of us who grew up through the violence.  Where does it say MY SIDE or have you failed to notice that all through this dialogue I have pointedly avoided being on ANYONE's effing side.  That's the whole thrust of my argument here: there are those of us who don't take sides.  Can you not understand that?  And another thing, let's stop bombing the Taleban and Al Queda, but don't come running to me when you're going on vacation and your plane gets blown out of the sky, and while you;re at it - go try and explain all that to the victims of 9/11 or 7/7 - or perhaps they don't matter because it wasn't Imperialism on somebody or other's behalf? The Thunderer (talk) 20:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * O dearie me TH! Your slip is showing! Remember the duck test? Your comments on Taleban and Al Queda are further evidence, were any required. I referred to "bombing civilians" - not to Al Q or the Taliban, didn't I? And Al Q weren't in Iraq when the British State started slaughtering innocent civilians there by the thousand. Your alleged concern for the relatively tiny number of Irish people killed by "rhetoric" (sic) since 1916 is thrown into rather stark relief by your support from bombing tens of thousands. You have made my point for me; seems you aren't so precious after all when it's Arabs at the wrong end of the bombs. Sarah777 (talk) 20:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And as you seem a bit chronologically challenged I must point out that 7/7 was a response to the British slaughtering of ten of thousands of innocent Muslims; not the other way around. Still, I don't see how you can condemn either the Irish Republicans or  the 7/7 and 9/11 guys when you seem happy enough to support shredding innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. Hypocrisy is the word one normally associates with that attitude and the British are, of course, famed for it. Sarah777 (talk) 20:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Tens of thousands of innocent Muslims"? Jaysus gimme a puff of whatever you are smoking.  Either it's good stuff or I need a new calculator.  No-one has killed tens of thousands of ANYBODY!  Need I remind you that it was rhetoric which started the Tan war and the Civil War?   Plus all the actions of the various bodies calling themselves the IRA since 1922 and who all claim descent from 1st Dail?   Isn't that what they all start out with "we are the legitimate successors of Dail Eireann"?  Need I also remind you that on the day of 9/11 it was only the grounding of all transatlantic flights which prevented terrorists detonating devices on US airliners heading out of Great Britain?   For the record, I abhor violence in any shape or form but am realistic enough to know that wars happen.  Even Irish troops have killed people in modern conflicts you know, and been killed themselves.  Look up Operation Rum Punch.  As for Irish Republicans I can condemn them just as easily as I can condemn rabid Loyalists.   We were born into the Realpolitik of Irish affairs, that doesn't mean to say we have to repeat the mistakes of previous generations by perpetuating the hatred and sectarianism which partition accentuates.   There are times when I wish the Civil War had been between the North and South, because no matter who feckin won at least it would all be over now and we'd have learned our lesson - then again, maybe not, because the Irish (north and south) are that imaginative that they'd soon find another reason to start it all over again.  Something along the lines of you calling the British guys who don't share your views "Nationalists" which you well know irritates them because of its racist connotations, although I can see how you would describe it as a parallel - particularly with Northern Unionists who are actually Nationalist in their own way.The Thunderer (talk) 23:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sarah, I am British, I didn't believe in the invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq. I'm afraid the people who believe the reasons given are rather naive. I also strongly believe the palestinians have been given a raw deal. But, as I said, I am British. I would feel more comfortable if you said British government. Skipper 360 (talk) 21:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarah, I did not come here to clap anyone on the back. If I have come across in any way as not being civil, I apologise. That was not my intent. Skipper 360 (talk) 20:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh btw, I read the Scotsman. That admission will probably get me condemned out of hand. The Thunderer (talk) 11:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't erase comments
Do NOT modify the comments of other editors, as you did here and here. A comment being "unsigned" is nowhere NEAR a good reason to remove it, and using "abusive" as a reason to remove a comment is highly inappropriate for someone who is currently involved in the argument and thus has a conflict of interest. --Raijinili (talk) 01:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Know what? I totally disagree with you! Sarah777 (talk) 01:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I also note that you have made an extraordinary 200 edits to Wiki articles since you first appeared three years ago. So I'll pass on your advice I reckon. Sarah777 (talk) 01:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I've filed an alert at Wikiquette alerts. --Raijinili (talk) 03:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Congratulations!! Sarah777 (talk) 22:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Just read the Wikiquette thread - it was Uncle Matt who made the comment I removed!! Well Holy God - as we'd say here in Glenroe. If only I'd known that at the time we could have had a right ole argy-bargy :-) Sarah777 (talk) 22:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

An idea
Hi there, I have put forward an idea Here on the Republic of Ireland talk page. I would appreciate your views, positive or negative. Thanks. Skipper 360 (talk) 16:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

the Irelands
Hiya Sarah. Seeing as you're continuing to pipelink Republic of Ireland as Ireland across Wikipedia? I've given up my hopes of moving the RoI page to Ireland (state) & I no longer oppose the article Ireland being moved to Ireland (island). GoodDay (talk) 19:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The longest journey starts with a single step......[[Image:Face-grin.svg]]Sarah777 (talk) 19:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Antagonizing others at the RoI movement proposal, won't help (rather it will hurt). GoodDay (talk) 22:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Bending over backwards to facilitate British POV, as some earlier Irish editors did, didn't help much for the past six years. You gotta better suggestion? (I'd love to hear it). Sarah777 (talk) 22:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Nope, I've none. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Being in a philosophical mood, I'd say that folk advised Churchill that declaring war on Germany would hurt too. And it sure did. So, was he wrong? Sarah777 (talk) 22:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

My god, what have I started?? :> Skipper 360 (talk) 22:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * An Irish revolution? GoodDay (talk) 22:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Wheres that bunker? Skipper 360 (talk) 22:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Being philosophical, I'll resist the temptation to reply to that Skip ;) Sarah777 (talk) 22:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, philosophy, goes right over my head, as do many things. Skipper 360 (talk) 23:02, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In an equally philosophical move I'd say the decision to start the Easter Rising gave rise to the thought that it might hurt.  It did.   Do you think THEY were wrong Sarah? ;) The Thunderer (talk) 11:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Certainly not - taking up arms against a genocidal Imperialist is never wrong. Unless you are representing another  Empire, in which case it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Sarah777 (talk) 11:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Ireland naming etc
Calm. Long breaths, time away from the computer and calm. Step away from the debate for a few hours before before you say something you may regret. It's not worth it, don't let the rest of your editing suffer. Canterbury Tail  talk  11:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sarah, you misconstrued me. I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, I'm not trying to change your opinions of viewpoints, and I don't have a problem with anything. I was just looking through the debate on the WP:IMOS talk page and I can see you're getting worked up again over the naming. I'm trying not to get too involved in all that these days, it's just not worth it, but I was just looking in and looking out for you. I just don't want to see you get blocked, or someone pull the anti-Sarah777 British Imperialist card. Believe me, my interests are actually benign. Canterbury Tail   talk  11:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK Ben - I was just after posting a rather bland reply to Thunderer when you popped up so I assumed a connection - my mistake. As for the threat of British Imperialism we have battled that fearlessly for hundreds of years (not personally you'll understand) - so I'd not let a few wee threats deter me :) Sarah777 (talk) 11:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * British Imperialism *snort" - you don't arf make oi larf! The Thunderer (talk) 19:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Th; while is was not my intention, if I make you laugh that must be surely a good thing? They say it's excellent medicine. Sarah777 (talk) 02:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You should have an idea of my views by now. I'm not a fan of outdated rhetoric and I find it remarkable that someone like you, who obviously has a fine mind, is drawn to using it.   I've seen you using British Imperialism, American Imperialism and Israeli Imperialism; all of which are archaic political terms used by fanatics.  In the neutral environment of Wikipedia they are just so out of place.  I do find it rather funny when I see these terms being employed although it does make your views seem rather strident at times.  I'd hate to have you near me when you've had a few.  I can imagine me cowering in the corner being berated on the crimes of the English in Ireland from the 12th century to the present day.  Perhaps we can organise a trip to London sometime and I can take pictures of you dancing on Oliver Cromwell's grave LOL The Thunderer (talk) 12:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Imperialism  is a fine fully functional word. It means what it says; when clarity is required it is better than any amount of weasel words. Sure, it has negative connotations just like "terrorism" - (a much less precise term) - yet the T word is used throughout the Wiki discussions. Stridency is in the eye of the beholder and any beholder who is soft on Imperialism and is not someone I'd much worry about. In the neutral environment of Wikipedia they are just so out of place. Alas, Wiki is not a "neutral" environment - it is dominated by British and American nationalists who believe their nationalist pov is "neutral" - as I've explained many many many times before. Sarah777 (talk) 15:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that Imperialism is a concept which died out in the Western world in the early to mid 20th century.  Hence my insistence that the term is archaic, although it could still be applied to countries like Iraq up to GW2 or the USSR up to Glasnost.  The UK dismantled its Empire slowly from 1899 up to the mid 1960's.  So while modern evidence may still remain and it's in living memory (just), it's no longer appropriate to call the British govt Imperialist.   As for Americans, I have come across few of them (that I'm aware of) and have had no problems with their POV but given that they have extremely large numbers in the English speaking world I guess it's understandable, if not forgiveable, that their viewpoints dominate some articles.   From our (mutual) point of view, it's Irish nationalism (and here I allude to Unionism being a form of nationalism) that appears to be the major issue.  Whilst those from the British mainland may have what appears to be a nationalist POV their circumstances are entirely different, given that nationalism in England is identified with neo-Nazi style groupings or the BNP.   The issue of English nationalism is of course a hot potato and has been for many years given the West Lothian Question.  Here I struggle to find a term which describes those in England whose national pride would class them as nationalist in the traditional sense but I can't find one - and therein lies a problem.   As the English number around 50 million though, you're always going to find that we Irish are going to be in the minority.   As we are a dogged and determined race however, (whether native Irish or Ulster-Scot) we are capable, and it is evident that we can, hold our own.  Then of course we have to deal with our own differences and, in most cases, the British will side with northern Unionists.   Or would you disagree? (try not to be too strident, my eyes are tired) The Thunderer (talk) 16:52, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Focusing on "Ireland" (only!) as the name of the state
Isn't it better to focus on one solution? When things get watered down in this way nothing ends up happening. Cross proposals, conflicting suports etc - it all leads to the status quo remaining, and has done countless times. I can't see "Ireland (state)" working as the main page (for reasons given in my oppose vote). I'm building a proper 'Ireland' proposal, and I'm hoping you'll still back it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes Matt, as explained, your proposal is my preferred option. I will try to stay focused in future! Sarah777 (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Rfc closed
Hi there, I have now closed the Rfc. There seemed to be no new editors coming in. In trying to help I hope I haven't confused it more. I'll be off to pastures new and wish you all the best. Cheers. Skipper 360 (talk) 16:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Skip, 'tis better to have tried and failed than never to have tried! Sarah777 (talk) 16:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'm not a little dissapointed even though I knew it was a long shot. But who am I to think I can help solve a disagreement that has been going on for so long. :< Never mind, I'm sure you and others will solve it one day. Take care. Skipper 360 (talk) 16:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Polemical break (or a break from polemics)
For 40 hours, starting right now I need to give this stuff a rest and do some Irl Wiky Proj work; you can all post away - damn me from a height etc - I'll get back to you Sunday night(ish); till then think of my non-replies as taking the phone off the hook, no disrespect intended, nothing personal Sarah777 (talk) 03:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

e/c fine - I'll leave you with this: I just want to register right now that for all your own endless protestations, your side of the table get away with bloody murder. Unfortunately Wikipedia is simply structured for disruption. I can't believe (as I have seen today) how solid even one of you can be with just an IP and a sock by your side (whoever they are). Your combined clamour has created a highly-strung atmosphere, and you people can play it like a harp. You make the racket and all the balls get placed in your hands.--Matt Lewis (talk) 03:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Do they? Don't be so rude Matt. Sarah777 (talk) 21:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Irish Sea
I've made a request for citations at that article. I wondering if there's British who object to the name Irish Sea. If there's is citations for that, then we could add it to that article. Thus creating 'balance' between it & the British Isles article. PS- I'm going back to sticking to resisting page movement or page deletion requests of British Isles; less stressful that way. I leave you all to figure out the article's content. GoodDay (talk) 17:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll object to it if that will help you out. I think the name is offensive to everyone who lives in the Irish Sea. Go for it G'Day - I'm 100% behind you. Sarah777 (talk) 19:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Giggle giggle. But, it's good to know you'd support changing the article name to British-Irish Sea. GoodDay (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * PS- of course, I would oppose such a page move. GoodDay (talk) 22:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe check out objections to the English Channel too. I'm told the French don't like the name. I'm prepared to support any French objections if you reckon that'd help. Sarah777 (talk) 19:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Nay! One contentious name at a time. GoodDay (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The French simply use their own name for the Channel - La Manche, IIRC. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 12:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I know that Bastun! Sarah777 (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

British Isles
I only gave an opinion Sarah, I don't say it should be called British Isles, but that's what it's called. If the name was changed and was in common use I would be pleased for you, but until then I can't see any other name being used. I'm new to this debate, so if a very good reason was given for changing it I would listen. I can see I'll have to tread lightly around you. ;) Skipper 360 (talk) 01:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sarah - ever been to one of the Costa Coffee cafés? Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 18:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Have I what?!!


 * So....they.... make the coffee out the tanned hides of native Africans? It's a front for the Provos? You've seen me in one?? I feel I'm being suckered here Bastun, but I confess - I have been. Sarah777 (talk) 21:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Just wondering... :-) My first time in one today. And while someone using the term "British Isles" in a geographical context doesn't bother me in the least - the "mission statement"-type blurbs I read in Costa certainly do! "The only UK-based store to blah blah blah... the best coffee brewed to suit British palates..." - this being in a Dublin city branch! Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 22:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well Holy God! I never noticed. Note all that glass in the building? - I'm off to collect some rocks! Sarah777 (talk) 22:06, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm - that's my "local" coffee costa too.... --HighKing (talk) 23:55, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh. Well, its possible they may not have the signs in every branch - and the one I was in, it was in a quiet alcove.  But yeah - that sort of cultural imperialism - "Ah, sure its only the next country over, and they speak English too, we needn't change anything" does get to me... (If you have any rocks left over, I recommend a visit to Starbucks too, but only for the crime of what they pass off as coffee... ;-) Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 22:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Been to Starbucks...once. Never again. As you say, the coffee is ********. Sarah777 (talk) 22:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I prefer the coffee in the Italian - pity they closed their smaller "La Corte"... --HighKing (talk) 23:55, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

British != Nazi
Hi Sarah. Firstly, as you know, calling the "British Isles" the "British Isles" isn't the same thing as calling everyone that lives on them "British", and secondly, the notion of someone erroneously being called British is a far cry from being called a Nazi. Please can you make that your last British=Nazi comment. Waggers (talk) 14:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's get this clear Waggers; (1) in my view calling these islands the British Isles is in fact calling those who live in these islands "British". (2) The reason it is so offensive is because the British Empire which originated the term was worse than the Nazi regime. When folk stop (a) repeatedly asking me why  the term is offensive, (or asserting, as you do, that it isn't offensive), then there will be no need for me to repeatedly explain it and (b) the notion of someone erroneously being called British is a far cry from being called a Nazi. Well, that's your POV and you are entitled to it - stop trying to impose your nationalist POV on myself and other Irish editors. It is unfortunate perhaps that the British didn't collectively dump the name associated with their genocidal Empire in the same way the Germans have abolish any language and symbols associated with Nazism; but I can't be held responsible for that. Sarah777 (talk) 00:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Germany was called Germany before Naziism, and Germany is still called Germany now. They didn't change the name of the country, but it's a very different country today than it was 70 years ago.  Similarly, Britain is very different today (and indeed 70 years ago) to what it was back in the time of the British Empire.  Quite frankly I think it's about time you dragged yourself into the 21st century, Sarah. Waggers (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Iraq? No, Waggers, I don't think the leopard has changed his spots. Maybe it's time the British dragged their country into a post-Imperialist age? Eh? Are you guys really  as clueless as you appear to be? Surely that isn't possible? But I must WP:AGF I guess and conclude you are not...eh....very insightful.  Sarah777 (talk) 00:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Breaking Godwin's law does not help the smooth functioning of Wikipedia. Would the two of you please stop commenting at each other.  "At" is a good preposition, because you are throwing darts rather than communicating.  Waggers, it would be swell for you not to post to this particular page again because Sarah777 can't really get away from you here.  Thanks, and good evening. Jehochman Talk 01:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Precisely. Well said, Jehochman. To be honest, Waggers, you know Sarah's on civility parole an' all that. It just looks like you're goading her into a block. Hm? - A l is o n  ❤ 01:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Quite the opposite - as one of her mentors, I'm trying to advise her to tone down her language in order to avoid a block. Her failure to take friendly advice at face value is her lookout. Waggers (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Just as well I'm so durn difficult to goad, eh :) Sarah777 (talk) 01:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, yeah :) *poke* *poke* *poke* :D - A l is o n  ❤ 01:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In fairness to Waggers, it looks more to me like Sarah is being protected here because she is on 'civility alert'. Is that supposed to be the way it works? Call me Mr logical... And two admin (and one a checkuser) seeming to side with Sarah against an admin is not great for a neutral to see either. I notice Waggers didn't get the smilies - he got the "hm?"!


 * I put the racism section up in BI because I'm tired of seeing the anti-British crap I'm seeing all the time. It actually wasn't about Sarah, but Waggers picked up on that side of it. He's Brittish too - so so what? He's entitled to be pissed off. As a fellow Brit I'm 100% percent on his side, and Sarah's response to him above was not clever at all - and it was no off the cuff one-liner, was it? I can't help thinking you both are dampening that fact by referring to the civility patrol thing. But isn't that unfair on Waggers? And might it not be better just to tell her to tone herself down?


 * I know as much as anyone how hard it is to keep your temper in this place, but Sarah has been told many times by me that I take the anachronistic attack of the British imperialism personally - and she does nothing to hide the time difference. She will even call people British imperialists - we've all seen it. I don't want her blocked or anything but I'm buggered if I'm not going to say all this just because she is on Civility watch, or whatever its called. Sorry - that's just nuts.


 * By the way, I resent the term "Godwins law" and always have - it's so foolish. Nazism (like all extremes - Shakespeare, Einstein, the holocaust, etc) are needed examples in life - I use them seriously, and I take them seriously - Nazism included. I find Sarah utterly misguided and although she is just one person, she is part of a force that I am beginning to find genuinely upsetting. - but that is in the real world. I don't want to see the rot in here. --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's get this clear Matt; (1) in my view calling these islands the British Isles is in fact calling those who live in these islands "British". (2) The reason it is so offensive is because the British Empire which originated the term was worse than the Nazi regime. When folk stop (a) repeatedly asking me why  the term is offensive, (or asserting, as you do, that it isn't offensive), then there will be no need for me to repeatedly explain it and (b) the notion of someone erroneously being called British is a far cry from being called a Nazi. Well, that's your POV and you are entitled to it - stop trying to impose your nationalist POV on myself and other Irish editors. It is unfortunate perhaps that the British didn't collectively dump the name associated with their genocidal Empire in the same way the Germans have abolish any language and symbols associated with Nazism; but I can't be held responsible for that.Sarah777 (talk) 02:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have also told you Matt, that in the light of the UK's part in the slaughter of a million Iraqis (and several other recent murderous agressions)I don't accept  that British Imperialism is "anachronistic" or "in the past." That is my view and if people suggest that I shouldn't be offended by having my country referred to as "British" I will repeat this view. As long as it takes. As for Britain could be fighting for its survival in the future - I have no idea what you are referring to - it is most unlikely to be from Irish nationalism - something which never threatened Britain's survival. Sarah777 (talk) 02:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I still believe the whole of Ireland will be re-united someday (not sure when, though). Anyways, I've often wondered - are UKers offended by the term Irish Sea? just curious. GoodDay (talk) 02:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * G'Day - I have just replied to that somewhere else - you've asked that question a dozen times and you always get the same reply. Sarah777 (talk) 02:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the lazy cut and paste from above - it includes quoted by Waggers. I'm no fan of the British Empire, but I'd read up a bit on the Nazis if I were you. In fact - try watching the news, looking around you. There are a lot of evil things in the world today. How would the Irish suffer now from us allowing an even semi-fair and semi-policy British Isles article? The Irish are uncannily prosperous, and welcomed and succesful wherever they go. Look at Alison - is she told to go home like a British Muslim perhaps, would be? Poor beleaguered Ireland is really being punished by the imperialistic British on Wikipedia isn't it?


 * Remember the recent poll on ROI? How many of those against changing ROI to Ireland really were British? It's confused me I must admit - but I'll wager a guess - less than half of them. IMO, you even blame "British nationalism" for deadlocks that are entirely between your own countrymen! I've simply been forced into entering the Irish debate from being stopped from moving by it elsewhere (I've hithertoo kept away from it), but now I'm in it I'll speak my mind. You need to tone down on the constant anti-British tone. --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't think so as I certainly wouldn't regard NI Unionists as "fellow countrymen"; nor would they - they are British and, they claim, proud of the fact. All this poor beleaguered Ireland stuff is a straw man of your own construction which I'll ignore (after all, it isn't me who is claiming our country is fighting for its very existence!) My position is rather clear: Ireland (the Country) is not British and the term British Isles is therefore inaccurate; an anachronism; offensive to people who live in Ireland. If you ask why it is offensive - you get my cut and paste. Sarah777 (talk) 02:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've slightly amended my above comment as an edit conflict occurred, though it is essentially the same. REgarding you "straw man" comment - please read my comments properly: they are all well thought out. You've just missed the point.
 * There is only one ref that says the term "British Isles" IS offensive in Ireland NOW - but Kearney doesn't verify his statement, and continues to use the term for contemporary Ireland. I cannot verify is as there are simply no other available refs! That leaves us with just your word. IMO, Ireland is in the mood for peace and is not in the mood at all for dredging up this kind of thing. If you went door to door (as GoodDay says) I personally think you'd be told where to go. Who in Ireland needs this crap? Scotland (as surely you must know) is set to have a referendum in 2010 (though it may not happen). Britain can do without the unverified pretence that many in Ireland find the term 'British Isles' offensive. It's always written to make Britain look like shit - I'm British and I'm tired of it. I've told you many times how I'm happy to help present the issues properly but you simply don't want to know. In fact - I get constantly called a 'British nationalst' for effectively being biased your way (as much as I can be). I'm constantly trying to over-compromise, but it's never enough. --Matt Lewis (talk) 03:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Matt; what we have here is a clash of perspective. There is no pretense that Irish people find being called "British" offensive; it is a simple fact. I'm not claiming 100%. As for "Ireland is in the mood for peace" - what has that got to do with it? In fact, during "the Troubles" very many Irish people hid their feeling about such matters for fear of being branded "Provo fellow travellers" - now there is no longer any feeling that we must bear the slings and arrows of outrageous POV for the sake of peace.
 * Who in Ireland needs this crap? If you refer to the idea of door-stepping asking questions like "do you support the English Football" then nobody needs that crap, 'cos we already know the answer. As for I'm British and I'm tired of it. - Matt, I'm sure we could get you an Irish passport. Sarah777 (talk) 03:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * IP 86.xx.xxx seems determind not to sign-in or simply use a User-name. GoodDay (talk) 00:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep - but he/she chastised me for questioning its IPness - so I stand, eh, chastised. Sarah777 (talk) 00:13, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, there's a move request to have the article as Britain and Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 19:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Help
Sarah, I would appreciate your comments. I edited the Ballyshannon article, removing a list that seemed to lack notability. Got a furious response from an editor on my talk page. I responded on User talk:John-joe123 and it continues. I hate this sort of thing (it's why I back off most of the Irish pages). Don't get involved, plz, but I'd appreciate your comments on my own judgement and behaviour - I know you won't pull punches!! Folks at 137 (talk) 05:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well Folks - this is fairly cut and dried! You made a perfectly good edit and got threatened in response. I'd reckon you are dealing with one of the school-kids on that list you deleted. If it was a regular editor he'd be in some hot water over what he said on your page, and rightly so. It's a decent article (plus v good photo) and the list nonsense would completely mess it up. Sarah777 (talk) 08:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your time. I know you would have told me if I were being silly. No recent comeback, so hopwfully its blown over, Owe you an e-pint.Folks at 137 (talk) 20:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Too soon I spoke. The list has been reinstated by User talk:John-joe123! Know anyone who I can approach to arbitrate? Maybe 2nd opinion would convince. Folks at 137 (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

ROI
Have you got any energy for working on a fact summary and a take to arbitration on the ROI issue? I am pretty convinced now that there are two groups who are an issue here. One wants to impose the UK language pre GFA for whatever reason and the second is paranoid about anything that originates from anyone Irish (or those of us who while not Irish have some knowledge of history). A subset of those seem to want to deny that the British Empire ever did anything other than help out poor natives to achieve economic goals. The recent set of patronising remarks seeking to close it off have irritated me! However you have more experience here and it may be one of those lost causes which just has to be raised again and again. I wondered about setting up a task force to find and work out a non-ROI solution (ie not a proposal yet but an attempt to work out an agreed alternative position) as one way. -- Snowded  TALK  06:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely, I'm with you. As I said I was resigned (for a while anyway) to living with the "RoI + pipe" compromise, but some of the arguments/voting are so nakedly POV ridden and are so blatantly motivated by hostility to Irish nationalism that I feel this issue requires much more urgent attention. Where do I sign up? Sarah777 (talk) 21:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Right I will have a think about how to move forwards and propose something. I think this needs to be done in stages, firstly establishing a non ROI version to get a common position, then tackling the wider change.  I am not encouraged by recent comments on the page itself.   I see that Matt is attempting something more ambitious which is commendable but I fear will just recycle the old arguments.   -- Snowded   TALK  13:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't advertised it yet, as I want to get in a table showing how many sub articles and templates are completely confused by the current approach - other than that it's probably ready. What do you think? It finally occurred to me that people who oppose change to the nth degree are protecting the island article - they don't really care about ROI at all. It's all about keeping an island article called "Ireland" that is political, and includes the whole island (ie it covers Ireland's history/politics/culture all in one, rather than being a geography-only 'island' article - that makes it the real Ireland article for them). The approach is OK in the all-in-one sense - it just needs adjusting so we are not deceiving anybody by piping Ireland to ROI as we do (or, well, Wikipeire mostly did!), and essentially having two country articles. Currently we are basically tricking people with these two articles being as they are. Look at all the subpages and it's a disam nightmare - Ireland with both meanings and NI all over the shop. I've experienced the blanket negativity on the ROI/Ireland talk pages myself - the only way to counter it is to present unarguable facts as professionally as possible, then widen the audience as fairly as possible. New blood can then see the best approach. Not all the ROI people are so bad either, by any means: a lot of them just want the best option, but some can be cynical for sure.--Matt Lewis (talk) 13:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I referenced too early Matt, as I said I think its a good initiative, my worry is a taking people too far too fast. I agree with the need to make this fact based.  -- Snowded   TALK  13:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've just slightly revised the above. I mentioned it at BITALK briefly but I didn't want to poll etc as it took so long over British Isles. Having seen the negativity I imagined archives suddenly occuring, talk of moratoriums instead etc - some people have tried to wind this recent discussion up almost as soon as it all started. What's diferent this time is the amount of new faces involved. --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Northside
I am and a very proud one at that! A few of the Northside pages such as my hometown need a bit of work, so I'll be working on them over the coming weeks. I must admit though I'm not the biggest fan of Infobox Irish Place. Imo a nice picture of the town would be much nicer than the zoom up map. Thats for another day of course!ThatsGrand (talk) 00:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Snap! The infobox is visually challenged. I don't have the know-how to design that stuff but we could certainly do with a more colourful version. Sarah777 (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * And re Malahide as a photo-gal may I say the pics there are way too heavy on the Photoshop. looks like you are all on acid! Sarah777 (talk) 01:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Pshh, Malahide is practically a southside on the northside in any case. But if yer reppin' the place i 'spose we can't turn you away. Want to join me in a chorus or two of this with suitable name substitution? *gangsign!* 86.44.27.188 (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW Sarah, i'm a different 86 than the 86 goodday references above. But given his chastisement of you and my singing, i'm sure you'd like to 86 us all! 86.44.27.188 (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh my, i see our putative malahidian was a sockpuppet of some industry. It's times like this i am glad i avoid issues around irish articles like the plague. 86.44.27.188 (talk) 15:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm. My IP seems to be 83, what has Wiki got to say about that I wonder? Sarah777 (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the atomic number of Bismuth, the most naturally diamagnetic of metals, therefore clearly a reference to your skills of argument, and the circumstances in which they reveal themselves. 86.44.16.18 (talk) 05:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Whaddaya know? Pyrolytic carbon can levitate. Not many people know that! Sarah777 (talk) 12:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

We need some of your many road photos, Sarah!
Hi Sarah. I'm wondering if you have any photographs of the new M9 motorway, either open or under construction. Also, one for the Suir Bridge would be great. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.38.20 (talk) 16:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry! The only ones I have are some rather dull ones taken a last March such as the one on the N9 road (Ireland) article. I actually pulled up and took some a month ago and unfortunately managed to delete them by accident! The only pic I have of the Suir Bridge is this this one - and somehow I doubt that's the bridge you mean :) Sarah777 (talk) 16:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup, that's not quite the bridge I'm referring to! Thanks for the Carlow Bypass photo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.38.20 (talk) 18:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Brass barnstar
For having the brass neck to ask for one. :) Sorry, I could only afford a small one. Jack forbes (talk) 14:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you Jack. My neck is even brassier than you'd imagine; I actually troll for barnstars! Your small but perfectly formed award will take it's place in the front row of my collection; like the little guys in the team photo :) Sarah777 (talk) 19:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales
Hi Sarah. I wanted those 4 components of the UK to be called constituent countries? but you know how that turned out. Anyways, Republic of Ireland changed to Ireland (state) or Ireland (country) is cool. GoodDay (talk) 14:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC) hi sarah how ru doing love u baby xxxx

Your "Years in Ireland" series
Hi Sarah, good to hear from you again. Unaware of the bot, not sure I understand exactly what it is doing and why. Could you enlighten me or give me an example? How would you go about stopping it? Sorry if I appear a bit dense. Ardfern (talk) 19:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ardfern, I only spotted it just now so I know nothing about it. I looked at its permission discussions and can't see any mention of the "Years in Ireland" series - I've asked the creator to furnish some link to the decision to de-link the "Years in Ireland" series and have left a message on Alison's page. I have some suspicions about this so I'm not going to revert the bot (the number of edits required would go into thousands!) until some Alison looks into it - it could be a trap (for me most likely). Last time I walked straight into it.


 * Here is an example from a James Lally article:


 * (cur) (last) 19:04, 18 September 2008 Lightbot  (Talk | contribs) (1,357 bytes) (Units/dates/other) (undo)
 * (cur) (last) 03:18, 3 August 2008 Kingstowngalway  (Talk | contribs) (1,437 bytes) (undo)


 * Dozens of these have popped up on my watchlist in the past 24 hours; covering a whole host of articles.


 * Sarah777 (talk) 19:45, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I spotted this when I was on your page!! (Sadly the image of you being flogged by the deletionists has been.......deleted)

Any Admins awake out there?
Folks, I know you are watching. Administrators: if this bot is malfunctioning or causing harm, please [index.php?title=Special:Blockip&wpBlockAddress=Lightbot&wpBlockExpiry=indefinite&wpAnonOnly=0&wpEnableAutoblock=0&wpCreateAccount=0&wpBlockReason=Bot%20malfunctioning:%20 block it].

Could someone please stop this bot before it does untold damage? Sarah777 (talk) 19:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Why?
See this diff from Johnstown, County Kilkenny:


 * (cur) (last) 18:28, 17 September 2008 Elliskev  (Talk | contribs) (1,633 bytes) (em dashes) (undo)
 * (cur) (last) 18:27, 17 September 2008 Elliskev  (Talk | contribs) (1,625 bytes) (unit conversion) (undo)

Now my question. What the heck is an 'em dash' for? Why bother? I can't see the point.

This question is addressed to the "community". Sarah777 (talk) 20:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:DASH --Elliskev 16:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

British Isles & IP accounts
Hiya Sarah. IP.86's continuing hate-laddened speeches were getting disruptive (IMO). His/her & the other IP accounts refusals to sign in were also annoying (not to mention their weak excuse/no excuse for not signing in). Curious ain't it? 86 wants it pointed out the BI is considered offensive in Ireland, yet wants the article title changed. Changing the title removes the significants of mentioning the offensive nature of the term. It's very difficult to AGF when these editors refuse to register in. GoodDay (talk) 22:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi G'Day - I've been repeating my views on registration/IPs for the past two years but it appears that nobody gives a hoot. Which leads me to suspect that some eminent members of the Wiki-Establishment use IPs a lot. Sarah777 (talk) 23:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm no longer commenting at the British Isles, Republic of Ireland or the related Taskforce pages, until those IP accounts sign-in & IP.86 is barred from those articles. There's something fishy going on. GoodDay (talk) 23:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Notes on Alison's Page
If you need admin help now with something, Alison is probably not the best one to ask. The UTC says it is about 11:00 a.m. Sunday your time, but it will be only 3:00 a.m. Alison's time. She might be out dancing, or, more likely, sound asleep. ៛ Bielle (talk) 11:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Surely it ain't always 3 am in America? Sarah777 (talk) 08:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I was mistaken. I thought you were looking for immediate help when you posted. Notwithstanding my error, it is always 3:00 a.m. in California, I think, either that or they get away with stuff in broad daylight the rest of us wouldn't even attempt in deepest dark of night. And it is 3:00 a.m somewhere in America for 3 hours every day. I am sure that explains something about America, I just don't know exactly what. ៛ Bielle (talk) 00:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe she's ever-so-slightly annoyed with the tone of the comments and is ignoring them, lest she say something biting instead. That wouldn't be right. (hint: Sarah, please discuss the matter with the 'bot operator, as that's all I'm basically able to do anyway. I'm not going to block a bot that does a myriad of other very important tasks on your say-so. Take it up with them) - A l is o n  ❤ 00:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In terms of my hours, BTW, nobody can tell. Sometimes, I'm working at 2am, and sleeping at 3pm, sometimes it's the other way around. I've the awesomest, flexiblest job on the planet, really. My hours change with the weather - A l is o n  ❤ 00:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Then I apologize for the tone, too, Sarah777. (Or is Alison referring to the tone of comments made on her page? I am my usual confused self. Oh well, any extra apologies, if currently unnecessary, can be held against a time when they might be required. I intended something light of heart that may have come out heavy of hand.) To Alison: you are right that I should not assume anything about your sleeping or playing hours. My hours are also erratic, but I am retired and it is what I am reading or painting that determines my wake/sleep cycle. Thanks goodness for phones with ringers that can be turned off. ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Lordy Bielle - I wasn't being the least bit offended by your comments - I'm not easily offended! Now Ali, I think you should  block the bot "on my say-so". It is engaged in mass vandalism, regardless of what useful work it might be doing. Are you saying that because I create large amounts of useful content you (or Fozzie) won't block me if I engage in some mass reversions of edits? Can you explain why an action by an manual editor is bad and the same action by a bot is acceptable? Would you react to someone complaining I'm edit warring, vandalising etc by telling the editor your weren't going to react on their "say-so" and tell them to take it up with me? Sarah777 (talk) 22:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Bielle, that wasn't any reference to your good self :) It's was more a reference to, "You seem to have no problem blocking real live editors on dubious grounds", from Sarah. I don't jump on command and have barely enough time to sleep these days, let alone do admin work (and that's not even talking about editing) - A l is o n  ❤ 23:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ali, (and I don't mean to be rude either) but you appear to have loads of time to block suspected socks of certain Irish editors. Sarah777 (talk) 23:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * So long as they keep socking, revert-warring mindlessly, and abusing others, I'll keep blocking. It's that simple. If it was someone editing 'the other way' (not your way), I'll block just as fast, trust me. Wikipéire knows what he needs to do - A l is o n  ❤ 23:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * And the Bot can keep on truckin', making dozens, maybe hundreds, of destructive edits unchecked while you focus on the relatively tiny amount of damage Wikipiere can do? Do you not think consistency is important in the use of Admin powers? Sarah777 (talk) 23:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So if I was Wikipiere (which I'm not) I'd get a Bot to do my edit-warring on a massive scale and be immune from Ali-sanction. Cool! You out there Wikipere??? - seems there is a way forward for you! Sarah777 (talk) 23:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Update....
Bot still vandalising articles Sarah777 (talk) 13:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

United Kingdom
Sorry Sarah, didn't mean to antagonize. I just couldn't help myself. GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Grrrrrr! :) Sarah777 (talk) 21:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Just read some of your comments on UK page concerning Scotland. Grrrrrr! :) Jack forbes (talk) 23:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Come on Jack - I'm only trying to encourage an outbreak of backbone in the Scottish populace! Your salvation is in your own hands. I could never understand how the Scots almost universally claim to detest England, London, their football teams and all else about them and yet don't have the cojones to vote for independence. Sarah777 (talk) 23:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There is plenty of backbone Sarah, have a look at the opinion polls and who runs the Scottish parliament. Many people fail to understand, including a lot of Scots, the brainwashing that has gone on for years. When I was in school (a good few years ago) I had a number of arguments with people who actually thought we were not smart enough to run our own country, can you believe that! They, their parents, and grandparents were fooled by the media into thinking we were too stupid! These attitudes are not changed overnight, yet look where we are now. It will happen Sarah, trust me. Jack forbes (talk) 00:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I can believe that a few malcontents and Unionists might think that. Even in Ireland (south) the residual closet Unionists peddle that rubbish, but there are no takers outside their own wee circle. Sarah777 (talk) 00:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the circle in Scotland was rather large but getting smaller all the time. There will always be unionists in Scotland, a lot of the politics having been taken from N.Ireland. Jack forbes (talk) 00:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I hope you are right Jack. One of the big advantages of an independent Scotland from an Irish perspective is it leaves the NI Unionists in a very exposed situation. What are they part of if Scotland becomes an independent Republic?! Sarah777 (talk) 00:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Republic, luv that word. GoodDay (talk) 00:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed. And if the British really want to disassociate themselves from genocide then England and Wales must become a Republic(s) as well. There is no other way to purge historical guilt. Sarah777 (talk) 00:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll stay away from the 'genocide' talk. Oh to dream of future republics, may they come about peacefully. GoodDay (talk) 00:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't ignore the elephant in the room G'Day. Sarah777 (talk) 00:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It's your talkpage, no prob. GoodDay (talk) 00:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * We can only vote to have seperation then see what happens. I believe our politics are the same Sarah, but you must know I will always defend Scotland as being a country. I understand your argument against it, (I don't agree with it) but if we start calling Scotland a region then our future Independence may be put in jeapordy. Since when has a region had a right to Independence? This would be music to unionists ears. PS; A snapshot of Scotland, my neighbour flys a saltire on a flagpole, my other neighbour flys a Union Jack, me? I sometimes walk about with my Celtic top on just to spice it up. Great fun! :) Jack forbes (talk) 00:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * OK Jack - could we agree that its a country but that it would be even more of a country  if it wasn't part of Britain????????? Sarah777 (talk) 16:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly Sarah, and I pray it will be more of a country. Let me say, if Scotland became the poorer if we gained independence I would still want it. I don't believe for a second that would happen, but for me independence would be worth it. There is a saying in Scotland , a ninetey minute patriot, referring to Scotland football games, well believe me , I'm not a ninety minute patriot.  Jack forbes (talk) 23:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

In response to your commendable grit and determination I'm hanging out the flag here: Sarah777 (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Shucks, thanks Sarah! Jack forbes (talk) 16:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Longshanks has no fans, here. GoodDay (talk) 16:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the intusion onto your talk page, Sarah. I dont wish to appear contentious but I just have to mention that Longshanks had Scottish allies, and that he was not English at all but of entirely French ancestry, as were his nobles who accompanied him to fight the Scots.--jeanne (talk) 05:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Longshanks, king of England, born in England, I believe that would make him English no matter what his ancestry was. If not, we would have to take a closer look at the present Queen and decide what nationality she is, German perhaps? As for his Scottish allies? Every country has their traitors. Jack forbes (talk) 11:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Golly! It's not very difficult to start a row about these things :) Sarah777 (talk) 12:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Row, me? As always I'm cool as a cucumber, I'm so laid back I'm slipping of the sofa. ;) Jack forbes (talk) 13:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm. That wouldn't always be my way! Sarah777 (talk) 13:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My cousin combs his hair so far back; his mouth is open. GoodDay (talk) 14:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes Edward I was certainly born in England (Westminster Palace to be precise), but his son King Edward II was born in Wales (hence the title Prince of Wales) and nobody would ever consider him Welsh. Nationality was a rather tricky issue in medieval times, especially as the English Kings had much territory in France. As for treachery, well Edward's expedition into Scotland was purely dynastic, not a case of the English wanting to obliterate Scots culture. Robert the Bruce was mainly of Norman descent. Anyway, the film Braveheart was full of many historical errors. I'm not anti-Scots (perish the Thought), especially as one of my favourite cities in the world is Edinburgh. Again, I must apologise to Sarah for using her talk page to bore all of you to death with my historical trivia.--jeanne (talk) 15:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Jeanne, I am of mainly Irish descent, I hope you are not suggesting I don't feel 100% Scottish. When does a person become a national of the country they were born and brought up in? Do they have to wait a few generations? Robert the Bruce was as Scottish as anyone. As for Longshanks and his weakly son, they were not exactly invading Scotland for altruistic reasons, they wanted a King on the throne of Scotland who would bend his knee to them. I also have to say, I think Scots know the film Braveheart was not historicaly accurate. Anyway, as a republican I would not want a King on the throne of an Independent Scotland, they are nothing more than a mafia making sure the family continue their line. But hey, I'm still pretty laid back about it, as I'm sure you can tell. :) Jack forbes (talk) 15:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please feel free Jeanne; I enjoy these history lessons! I'm not really too possessive about this page either :) Sarah777 (talk) 15:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, Braveheart (though exciting) was very off the mark. Edward III of England? illigetimate son of William Wallace? Edward II of England & Isabella getting married in Longshanks lifetime? etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 15:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's right. Edward III's legitimacy was never questioned (despite Edward II's male "companions"), and Isabella was born in 1295-not old enough to be Wallace's mistress, AND she was still in France at the time of his execution!!! Mel Gibson made a good Wallace, however, and the Irish scenery was breathtaking. I believe it was filmed in Wicklow.--jeanne (talk) 15:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Jack,I would never suggest you are anythimg but Scottish. And King Edward was not altruistic,he couldn't afford to be. Medieval monarchs were warlords, any hint of altruism or benevolence and England would have fallen back into the chaos of King Stephen. He wanted to rule Scotland as his descendants wanted to rule France.--jeanne (talk) 15:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You should visit Glasgow, a bit more gritty and less picture postcard than Edinburgh. Jack forbes (talk) 16:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ya forgot the best blooper. Wallace was executed in 1305 (Edward I died in 1307), Edward III was born in 1312. Could they preserve sperm in the 1300's? GoodDay (talk) 16:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It was only a film GoodDay, a good film, but just a film nevertheless. You would be hard pressed to find a historical film that was accurate, particulary Hollywood films. Look at Shakespeare, there are people out there who believe his plays are true to life. Macbeth for example. Jack forbes (talk) 16:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because Isabella had it off with Roger Mortimer (well after Edward III's birth), Hollywood decided to make like she did it with all rebels, even those alreadsy dead. As for Hollywood, remember Mary, Queen of Scoys starring Vanessa Redgrave? It showed Mary MEETING Elizabeth I in person! And there is The Tudors!!Henry VIII was not slim and good-looking, Anne Boleyn did not have blue eyes, Katherine of Aragon was blonde (although Maria Doyle was brilliant in the role), London streets were filthy, and they did not use closed carriages in the 1520's. Then look at the westerns- all those clean-cut cowboys!Hollywood has made a lot of good films, but please, leave the historicals to the Europeans.--jeanne (talk) 16:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Did I mention the failure of mentioning Alexander III of Scotland's immediate successor? His grand-daughter Margaret. Oops, I mentioned it. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Sounds like a medieval soap opera! Sarah777 (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way Sarah, how did you manage to let this United Kingdom discussion get off track (by becoming a Braveheart review)? GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * People watched the Tudors for the sex scenes.Although I think Mary having it off with Brandon aboard ship is a historical possibility. She was mad about him.--jeanne (talk) 17:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sex scenes? Damn, If only someone had told me I might have watched it! Those historical characters, they must have been at it all the time! Jack forbes (talk) 17:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Seeing as CBC has a hand in the productions? the scenes are very conservative in nature (I'm afraid). GoodDay (talk) 17:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Didn't Henry VIII have reddish hair? At least the got the beardlessness accurate (he didn't wear one until 1535). GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * HE had very red hair and was rather corpulent. Rhys-Meyers would make a good Henry V.--jeanne (talk) 17:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert, but was he not said to have been a lot slimmer and a good hunter when he was young? Jack forbes (talk) 17:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Checked out Jonathan Rhys Meyers; he doesn't have red hair and he sure doesn't look corpulant :) Sarah777 (talk) 17:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I suspect this is that TV thing, where the producers/directors prefer the actor not look like the character; so the viewer concentrates more on the story. Then again, poor casting is possible. GoodDay (talk) 17:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Yiu saw the censored version.In Italy they show everything. That scene with Brandon and Mary Tudor was very erotic. And they were at it all the time-look at all the kids they had. How those knights had the energy for war and jousting, I'll never know.--jeanne (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)