User talk:Sarah777/Archive 21

Happy Hallowe'en

 * I see the date is 31 October which means today is the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain. Sarah, I hope I spelled it right-alas, they didn't teach us Irish at Surf City High. Oh, GoodDay, go check out The Beatles singing Sexy Sadie on YouTube. The video shows the Maharishi Yogi-hee hee hee.--jeanne (talk) 08:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Halloween! that was one of the first articles I was involved (slightly) in editing. Ever eat colcannon? (I think Ali did the cooking!)Sarah777 (talk) 10:05, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I used to eat colcannon when I lived with my mother-in-law back in 1985. We never ate it at our house. Remember I'm a devotee of Mexican food. Tacos, enchiladas, chili, guacamole, etc. Yummy...I wonder what GoodDay is going dressed as tonight for Halloween? I've got my costume almost ready. I'm dressing as the Maharishi Yogi. I've got my long white robe, floral necklace, long beard, straggly grey wig. I just need to perfect my ability to "turn on everyone".

I don't believe I've yet met Alison on Wikipedia. I notice that she's an Irish Wikipedian.--jeanne (talk) 13:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep. Though now living in America - California I think. You may have passed each other while crossing :) Sarah777 (talk) 18:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Not likely. The last time I physically set foot in California was 1980, although I have astrally-projected myself there many times.LOL(When twas raining in Ireland)--jeanne (talk) 18:32, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You know the song - "It never rains in sunny Tallaghtfornia"! Sarah777 (talk) 19:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Or it could go- "It never rains on Sean O' Calla-forna-ghan.--jeanne (talk) 19:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you mean this $%£*!er? Sarah777 (talk) 19:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Aye.--jeanne (talk) 20:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

If your nominal interest in this holiday ever increases, feel free to join the wikiproject.--otherlleft (talk) 15:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Battle of the Boyne
Yes its true. When William won Te Deums were sung in St Peters. Its one of the strange contradictions in Irish history, as mentioned by Richard Barrett in his essay on the Good Friday Agreement. Law and Justice - The Christian Law Review, 2001. See the first page in Google Scholar:  Slainte - ClemMcGann (talk) 13:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, Sarah, that's because it was really a war fought for the supremacy in Europe between the two superpowers of the 17th century, namely France and Holland. The Pope happened to support Holland which was backing William of Orange as opposed to France which was backing William's rival (who also happened to be his father-in-law), King James II. Therefore the Pope was quite happy when William beat James at th Battle of The Boyne. No more ironic than the fact that the Irish were mainly Royalists during the English Civil War. Another irony is that the famine queen may have had an Irish daddy.--jeanne (talk) 16:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Which is how Haemophilia entered the royal family, but you can't say that on Wikipedia! ClemMcGann (talk) 17:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I know.LOL.--jeanne (talk) 17:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I know all that! What I didn't know was that the Papal States actually sent soldiers to help Willie! Sarah777 (talk) 21:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Kinda reminiscent of the Papal Bull that the Normans had in their pocket when they invaded Ireland way back. And never forget the Catholic Church excommunicated freedom fighters in the War of Independence. They have more to apologise for than rampant child abuse and extreme misogyny if you ask me. But nobody ever does. Ask me. Sarah777 (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats what comes from Maynooth requiring all its students to take the royal oath. If you weren't prepared to do so then you either joined an order or went abroad. ClemMcGann (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What about the schools run by the Christian Brothers? And the Magdalen laundries? Not to mention the Papal legate in Ireland forbidding the Irish to fight for King Charles against Cromwell unless the Protestant churches were closed in Ireland. Cheeky bu..er. Sarah, what do you think about Sir John Conroy? I personally believe it's probable that he was Victoria's father, due to the Duke of Kent's age, and desire to return to his former life with his French mistress. Then there is the haemophilia.--jeanne (talk) 08:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to be accurate, Conroy did not have haemophilia. Nonetheless she was unlikely to be the daughter of her legal father who was old, ill and dying ClemMcGann (talk) 10:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe haemophilia is passed on by the female, but only males inherit it.--jeanne (talk) 10:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

My eye caught
By this photo on the Corrib gas project page. Sarah777 (talk) 22:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Terminated by Tznkai
I have just been removed from this Admin's page for speaking the truth! C'est la vie I guess. Of course, me being moi, said Admin will receive similar treatment should he ever stray onto this page again. Sarah777 (talk) 22:25, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My sympathies - if all else fails then censor - pity wikip is this type of place ClemMcGann (talk) 22:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Cmt to Sarah. You were sent to the cornfield eh? GoodDay (talk) 22:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey! I must watch that episode, sounds intriguing. Sarah777 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ooh, I love the Twilight Zone. Especially The Hitch-hiker and that episode where the old lady keeps getting phone calls from her dead lover only to discover that a telephone wire had fallen on his tombstone. Brrrrr.... scareeeeee.--jeanne (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "There is a fifth dimension..." Luv that program. GoodDay (talk) 17:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't wish to be pedantic but doesn't modern physics hold that there are nine or thirteen dimensions? Sarah777 (talk) 17:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In the Twilight Zone, there's no rules. GoodDay (talk) 18:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are no rules G'Day, are no rules ;) Sarah777 (talk) 18:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been known to mangle the English language; giggle giggle. GoodDay (talk) 18:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What's that? Did you just say English language? Say that a bit louder and maybe it'll bring our friend Dunlavin out of hibernation. ENGLISH LANGUAGE!!!!--jeanne (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Dunlavin??? Sarah777 (talk) 18:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Dunlavin Green, I believe. GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh heart do stop beating so fast and bells do stop your ringing ''I feel dizzy my head is spinning...'.--jeanne (talk) 19:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have a comment on my actions, Sarah, you would be better off making it on my page, rather than Tznkai's. To respond to your point: its not the profanity per se that is the issue (though, as Risker pointed out, it is entirely counterproductive). It is the fact that an an entirely collegial, constructive discussion was turned into a confrontational, personalized, bad faith infused, aggressive dispute within 4 or 5 comments. Its that pattern that we saw again and again from the participants during the worst of the Troubles related issues and it is entirely how Wikipedia is not supposed to work. Its not his point (which is a fair one), its the way he makes it.

I, personally, find it pointless that we permit Vk to return only under restrictions that are meant to stop that sort of thing happening, then only apply the restrictions to some arbitrary list of articles. The issue doesn't go away just because the controversial article isn't Ireland related. We - the community - were given a public assurance when this unblocking was mooted that Vk was only interested in editing non-controversial articles such as sports, geography etc, therefore a specific list of all restricted articles was not needed and not made. I'm extremely sad to see that assurance has been reneged on, and the lawyering has begun to get around the spirit of the conditions and continue the same sort of behaviour.

Clearly others don't see it the same way, but then again, those others haven't witnessed the full extent of where those sort of contributions inevitably lead. Your disappointed? That doesn't even begin to describe my opinion. Rockpock e  t  05:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Rock if you are so hugely disappointed with me but I can't really fix that be agreeing where I strongly disagree. As for "lawyering" by God have I seen lawyering by a hoard of Wiki Admins during my banishment. I just wonder if you aren't getting too personal with Vk. I said it where it was most appropriate. Sarah777 (talk) 08:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean I was disappointed with you, I am disappointed by Vk saying one thing to get unblocked and then doing exactly what he said he had no interested in doing. I invested a significant amount of time working behind the scenes to convince the community that it would be better for WP if Vk was given a chance to edit on those specific areas. I now feel complicit in that duplicity, because the fears those people expressed have been realized after I told them it wouldn't.
 * You are welcome to express your opinion, just as I am, and I have no problem with that (so long as it is done in a civil manner). I gave my opinion, it was not shared by those other admins that are involved. C'est la vie. The same thing happened with Domer (albeit in reverse) and like then, you just have to accept you have a minority opinion and move on.
 * Despite what you may think, it really isn't personal. As you can see from my comments on the discussion, I completely agree with Vk's point and will support that fully. Its just that the way he goes about making it is entirely counterproductive and will only lead to more grief, disputes and problems. Maybe he will realize that one day, maybe he will not. We'll see. Rockpock  e  t  09:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification Rock. Sarah777 (talk) 10:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Featuring Halloween
I have started a discussion thread about getting the Halloween article up to FA status. Your comments and participation are most welcome.--otherlleft (talk) 17:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Orthodox monks in Jerusalem

 * Hey, did you see the Orthodox monks fighting in that church in Jerusalem? They make the Thirty Years War and French wars of religion seem tame in comparison. For shame, what would Jesus think if he could have seen them?--jeanne (talk) 09:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose those of a religious mind would reckon that he does see them! Sarah777 (talk) 08:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, as the Rev. Ian Paisley preached at one of his sermons: Jesus was no softie, he was not a man of peace, he was no namby-pamby sentimentalist. He was a violent man. Violent for good! So perhaps, Jesus is wildly applauding those monks gone berserk from his place high above the stratosphere--jeanne (talk) 09:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC).


 * Wow! Thanks for the photo...Christmas comes early? Sarah777 (talk) 10:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * re Jesus being violent. The old Celtic church thought otherwise.  This violent streak is based on "I came not to bring peace but the sword", they had this as "I came not only to bring peace but joy", see Bible Errata. :) ClemMcGann (talk) 10:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That was just the appetizer. I've three more goodies to put in your Christmas stocking. I know you'll have a hard time trying to decide which to unwrap first. This present comes gift-wrapped in silver covered in whites doves, now the second giftie has pretty little plump angels on the paper. If these aint to your liking there's always the knight in shiny gold wrapping. Merry early Christmas, Sarah!--jeanne (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Clem, I believe Paisley used passages from Revelations for his Jesus was no namby-pamby sentimentalist sermon. I haven't got a King James Bible on hand to check. Th Celtic church was doubtlessly superior to the Roman and far more liberal and independent, hence Adrian's famous (infamous!) Papal Bull.--jeanne (talk) 09:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And why did the Celts accept the practices of Rome? - because of a woman - Hilda of Whitby - its not fully related in the wikipedia article - the celtic church was ruled not by bishops but by the Great Abbots and Abbesses - this caused Rome some concern "persons is authority, not in holy orders". Bishop was a ceremonial position to the celts. Some Saxon Kings wanted the bishops in authority - provided they had a say in the selection, rather than the Abbot/Abbess who were elected by vote.  This was the key to convert the parts of England overrun by Saxons after the Roman Legions left.  Great Abbots were not a problem - they could be made bishops - but what of the Great Abbesses? - At the Synod of Whitby it was Hidla who supported the Roman position - ClemMcGann (talk) 16:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's always a woman. Just as the wife of Tierge O'Rourke indirectly caused the Welsh-Norman invasion led by Strongbow.And Anne Boleyn was the cause of Henry's breaking with Rome.--jeanne (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm saying nothing :|| ClemMcGann (talk) 23:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Birthday greetings

 * Guess who has a birthday today? No, not me (it's already long past this year as I was born in my favourite season) but my favourite royal who turns 60 on this day. I'm not being sarky, he is my favourite member of the Royal family (although I'm rather sure he isn't yours-LOL).--jeanne (talk) 09:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Speaking of birthdays, do you remember that song Happy Birthday by this Scottish group here?.--jeanne (talk) 09:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have a favourite Royal - they are all so damn groovy one finds it hard to choose:) Sarah777 (talk) 23:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hard to forget the song - you still hear it at birthday parties. Sarah777 (talk) 23:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you remember her in a film called Gregory's Girl? The guy who played one of the teachers was called Chick Murray. I tell no lie, he was the funniest comedian I have ever known. And I saw Billy Connolly when he first started out in Glasgow. The guy gave me more belly laughs than anyone I know. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't recall the film - but Billy Connolly has been burned into my memory since his diced carrots skit! Sarah777 (talk) 01:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Titch, I remember the film. I saw it in Dublin in 1981. I love Billy Connolly, especially his skit on BA pilots usually being named Nigel or Trevor. (They usually are). --jeanne (talk) 05:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

"A key determinant of "Irishness" is support for separation from Britain."
Wow. I never thought I would see your named signed to those words. So You're either with us, or against us, eh? And there was I thinking Ireland was a civilized country. Rockpock e  t  00:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well Rock I've often said the Irishness is a state of mind; not a race. And I certainly believe that you can only be Irish other than in the geographical sense if you support the idea of an sovereign country; so it isn't "with us or against us"; it's simpler - you are either Irish or British; you can't be both. It's the state of mind that defines the nationality. Sarah777 (talk) 00:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * For example nobody would disregard a claim by a Northern nationalist from Belfast to be as Irish as the average Tipperary man; but a Unionist from Belfast self-defines as British and only geographically Irish (our like the Duke of Wellington they sometimes don't consider themselves to be Irish at all). The so-called "two communities" in the North are in fact parts of two separate nations - one is called Britain and the other is called Ireland. You can't agree to such widely acknowledged facts and get all politically correct about the implications. Sarah777 (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Any "nation of people" that requires you to have a shared political ideology to be accepted is not one I would like to be part of. The only others I can think of is the Nation of Islam, the Aryan Nation and, if Sarah Palin is to be believed, "Real America." Not the best company to be in, I'm sure you'd agree. No, I strongly disagree with you. A Good Irishman does not need to share any geo-political view with you, or anyone else, to be good Irishman. You often claim Ireland is a civilized, democratic country (usually in comparison with the UK). Well, you can certainly be British and support a united Ireland (ask our friend ONiH about that), but apparently can't be Irish and support a divided Ireland? I know which I would rather be .  Rockpock  e  t  03:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarah, I have to disagree with you. I've genetically more Irish DNA in me than Eamon De Valera, yet I'm a monarchist. I also have some maternal English ancestry. There has never been a problem for me to have two warring nations occupying my body. Being Irish is like being pregnant: you either are or you're not, there are no qualifying factors. Politics do not alter a person's genetic make-up.BTW, I do oppose the move to name Counties of Ireland The Counties of ROI. Ireland is known as Ireland to most people. Nothing political involved at all.--jeanne (talk) 05:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Rock; I accept there are two 'nations' on the island; one Irish, the other British. And I didn't say you have to support a "united" Ireland; but certainly an Independent one. Absolutely. Jeanne - this has nothing to do with genetics or DNA or race - a state of mind, a political belief in an Irish nation. And being Irish unfortunately isn't  any more "like being pregnant". We voted in a referendum a few years back abolishing birthright - to bring us in line with most of the rest of the world; though I didn't support it myself. So you can be born here and deported. That means there is a "test of Irishness"; just as there is of "Britishness" or any other nation. That actually breached the GFA; but the people decided that you are not Irish simply by virtue of being born on the island any more. Sarah777 (talk) 00:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Another thing I need to mention that I've noticed. Most people with partial Irish ancestry tend to be more fanatically Republican than those who are geneticaly more Irish. For instance, take a look at all the IRA men with planter surnames and there are a few Italian ones as well. The Beatles are another example. George Harrison, who had the most Irish ancestry of the quartet (his mother Louise Ffrench was Irish), never wrote or sang songs regarding Ireland, while John Lennon who was probably only about 1/8th or at the most 1/4 Irish, was highly outspoken on Irish issues.--jeanne (talk) 06:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm part Italian myself - and probably if I went back far enough I'd discover lots of English blood; my surname was Jewish originally (600 years ago) - so I don't hold with racial theories of nationalism atall atall. Other than that most modern nations evolved around cultures that were often fairly homogeneous. Sarah777 (talk) 00:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Please excuse me for barging in here, if you want, you can grab me by the scruff of the neck and throw me out, my only hard feelings will be my sore head as I'm thrown through the door. I have to disagree with you concerning the amount a person has in their DNA in relation to their nationality. For me there is more than one criteria to being Irish or any other nationality for that matter. In my part of the world there are first generation asians who are as proud if not more so than many who can trace their heritage back hundreds of years. If we start talking about DNA being related to nationalism I think you will find it is a very individualistic decision from people of all origins how they see their country and where they want it to go politically. Do you think you are more Irish than Eamon De Valera because you have more DNA? I would not be so presumptious as to tell you how Irish you feel, but it is rather less black and white as it may first appear. Bracing myself for ejection! Titch Tucker (talk) 17:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I assume you are from America titch? I believe birthright still applies there - it doesn't in Europe any more - I think Ireland was one of the few places it did before we rather stupidly abolished it. It was abolished as part of the Euro-project to stop hoards of Africans and Muslims overwhelming the place or some such nonsense; but it has clear implications for all people born in NI post the GFA - though our media and establishment would rather you didn't say that too loudly. Sarah777 (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You are missing my point completely. What I meant was that ancestry and politics are not mutually inclusive. I'm Irish by DNA, but I don't need to accept a certain political POV because of my Irishness, nor does the lack of such a POV make me less Irish. Irish is like any other ethnicity, one has it in one's genetic makeup it but it does not morally oblige one to a certain political viewpoint. Which has nothing to do with pride, that is a totally different thing.--jeanne (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Titch's point is that one's DNA does not make one Irish either. There are no doubt many people of a non-caucasian race, say immigrants from India, who were born and bred in Ireland, as were their parents and grandparents. By "DNA" they are Indian, but have as much right to be considered Irish as any white, red haired green eyed, Dubliner. You land/nation/island of birth has almost zero influence on your DNA. If anything, defining nationality by one's the content of one's DNA is more disturbing than defining it by politics. At least you can fake your political views, not so much your genes. Rockpock  e  t  19:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * More disturbing is putting it mildly - you cannot change you racial make-up. You can decide whether you are Irish or British, it being two free(ish) countries we are in. Your knee-jerk political correctness is leading you into 'Error' Rock :)Sarah777 (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't believe I've successfully made myself clear. I never wished for this to become a racial discussion. I only wante to point out that one's nationality/ethnicity/race/religion does not mean you must conform to the stereotypes or politics associated with the particular group. Let me use myself again as an example. I'm mainly Irish, yet I'm a monarchist which does not conform to certain expectations one associates with Irishness. It's ike a black person who prefers to vote Republican and is shunned by his peers for doing so, or a Mexican-American who prefers Formula One to lowriding. It's about freedom to be one's self irregardless of ethnicity.--jeanne (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * On that we agree. Rockpock  e  t  19:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be more like a Black person who beleives the US should become part of the Soviet Umion or the British Empire. Very un-American. Sarah777 (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I also agree with your above points Jeanne. My point was in response to your assertion that you had more Irish DNA than De Valera, which in my opinion has no bearing on ones Irishness. Let me ask you a question. A child is born in Dublin with 100% Irish DNA and his/her parents emigrate immediately never to return. On the other side of the world a child is born with 0% Irish DNA and his/her parents immediately immigrate to Ireland where they bring their child up alongside every other Irish person and are steeped in Irish culture. Which child (now an adult) is more Irish? Are they the same or different? Or could it be, as I believe, it is a state of mind. If neither or both want to be looked on as Irish then that's what they will be. Titch Tucker (talk) 22:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * So, we are all agreed is that to be Irish you should live or have been born in Ireland and that should choose to support indepencence or else choose to be British? That was the essence of the GFA. Sarah777 (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with your first two points Sarah. Is it not a fact you are either Irish or British? As I said above, I believe ones nationality is a state of mind. Ps; No, I'm not from the US, I'm from somewhere else entirely. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarah, Titch, I have lived in Ireland-in fact, I'm a legal Irish resident. And I will continue to call myself Irish, as I had grown up hearing myself described thus.--jeanne (talk) 05:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeanne, you can call yourself Irish if you want. Bill Clinton does. But over here in Ireland, you'd be called American. Possibly Irish American, but not Irish, unless someone wanted to humour you. As for the theme, "you can either be British or Irish", why not, "you can either be American or Irish"? Incidentally, outside the north of Ireland, very few people call themseles British any more. English, Scottish, Welsh, but not British. and national flags (of England, Scotland and Wales) are supplanting Union Jacks in all but official circles Millbanks (talk) 10:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Another thing I must add is in regards to your statement about black people. It's highly unlikely a black American would support the Soviet Union seeing as black Americans are, as a rule, extremely patriotic. I worked on a US military base here in Sicily for several years, and I noticed that blacks did not take too kindly to Europeans criticising America or the American people.--jeanne (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sarah, many Irish people think it an anomaly for an Irish or Irish-descended person to support the system of monarchy. Two things: Ireland once had a monarchy and during the English Civil War most of the Irish Catholics were Royalists. In fact the Irish were prepared to mobilise on behalf of King Charles I until the Papal legate butted in and ordered that the Catholics only support the King on condition that he abolish the Protestant churches in Ireland. This the King refused to do and thus Ireland was invaded by Cromwell. Had the Pope not interfered the outcome of the Civil War and indeed Ireland's history would have been drastically different. Sarah, it's not just the English who have had a detrimental influence on Ireland. Remember Pope Adrian had issued a Bull back in 1152 which sanctioned an English invasion of Ireland. This was as you doubtlessly know was to bring the Celtic Church in line with the Roman Catholic!--jeanne (talk) 08:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey Jeanne! I wouldn't say being pro or anti Monarchy defines Irishness; that defines Republicanism. If you want some descendant of Brian Boru (even a descendant of KC the first) in the Park I might not be very keen but I'd have to live with it (so long as they aren't actually ruling , as in the divine right sense. I must point out that pope Adrian was the only English Pope - so his Bull isn't surprising! But then I'm not a huge fans of Popes generally either - surely as a feminist you'll appreciate why :) Sarah777 (talk) 09:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think I have problems with authority, period. Somebody has to have! Sarah777 (talk) 09:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Jeanne, I would never presume to tell you how Irish you are. As I previously said, Irishness is a state of mind, and you are obviously as Irish as anyone. Just one small point concerning black people being too patriotic to support the Soviet Union. I know its only one example, but there was a certain Paul Robeson who did in fact support them and lived there believing they treated blacks better there than in the US. Titch Tucker (talk) 09:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeanne "obviously as Irish as anyone". Come off it, she's American!
 * Millbanks, if I were famous like JFK or Barack Obama, the Irish press would be parading all my wee cousins from Co. Clare, West Cork, Crossmolina, and even Coleraine. There would also be a ballad or two written about me (see bottom of this page). My coat-of-arms would be blazoned across all the papers. Jeanne Griffin was once a Ni Griobtha of Clare! Maybe I'd even be taught to speak Irsh so that I could toss out a few words in Irish to prove my heritage. Begorrah! Erin Go Bragh! Millbanks, I have never denied being a Californian. Why should I? We have a lot to be proud of in the Golden State.--jeanne (talk) 11:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Millbanks (talk) 09:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * His Bull isn't surprising-now that's funny. I do have a problem with authority, especially civil servants and their ilk. I have major problems with dress codes, etc. In fact, my ex- husband (a Dubliner) always said my lack of respect for authority and rules stems from my Beyond the Pale Irish blood. Now Sarah, can you guess which part of the Ould Sod my grandparents came from?--jeanne (talk) 09:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I did know that about Paul Robeson, Titch, but most blacks prefer America and are usually some of the most homesick Americans on overseas military bases.--jeanne (talk) 10:04, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm as powerful as the Pope; I just don't have as many believers. GoodDay (talk) 14:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Which Pope, GoodDay, Clement VII?--jeanne (talk) 16:00, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Benedict XVI as he's the current Pope. I was just as powerful as his predecessors, too. GoodDay (talk) 18:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Confession, I didn't know him, but I could have and did guess he was somehow associated with Anne Boleyn. I was right! :) Titch Tucker (talk) 16:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem with saying that an essential defining characteristic of Irishness is a desire for separation from Britain, is that when the whole of Ireland finally becomes united and independent, then the whole point of being Irish will fade away, leaving them with nothing to define themselves against. Hostility to a former occupying power is perfectly understandable, but at some point it has to be let go of. No one in Britain feels hostility to the Romans any more (though that is not the case with the Normans, who never went away). For these reasons, and because I don't think it's fair or indeed correct to say that the Irish have a "single-issue nationality", I cannot agree with the original thesis. ðarkun coll 17:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Please be very careful about defining Irishness. We have all sorts here, from D4s to Shinners. The Oirsh brigade might try to portray all Irish people as heavy drinking, anti-British and Roman Catholic. They like Shane MacGowan, an English-born privately educated mockney, and Peter O'Toole, a well-spoken Yorkshireman. But for some reason Chris de Burgh doesn't fit their stereotype. I wonder if his daughter does? Millbanks (talk) 09:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I never realised there was still resentment against the Normans in England. Wasn't the Battle of Hastings fought in October 1066 (on William The Conqueror's birthday)? Well, there couldn't have been too much resentment seeing as the English have retained the Norman-descended nobility.--jeanne (talk) 17:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's known what William's true birthday was. Yes, Battle of Hastings - Saturday 14 October 1066. England only retained the Norman-descended aristocracy because its people didn't have any say in the matter. The Normans have controlled England - then the British Isles - then half the world - ever since. English peasants were little more than cannon fodder, or arrow fodder, for Norman ambitions. ðarkun coll 17:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Not so Tharky - here in the free South we still have a percentage of British folk - who'd like to undo our Irishness and make us British again; they'll never all be gone. Admittedly a pretty small number, TG. Anyway to say that when all Ireland is united that "the whole point of being Irish will fade away" isn't a logical follow-on! That's like say that the whole point of following Man Utd will be gone when they win the league! Think:)
 * Maybe by the year 3000 it will cease to be an issue. (About the same time the English forget about the Germans). Unless of course Anglo-American Imperialism has caused WW3 and Armageddon before that. My money would be on a nuclear winter actually. I'm pretty realistic for a basic optimist. And it's snowing here in Dublin today; 29 October - never before in October - tell me that isn't a SIGN??! Sarah777 (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

It won't matter anyway when we all become provinces of the EU. Thanks, by the way, to all the Irish who voted down that constitution. ðarkun coll 17:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Heck Tharky, you're welcome! (I was one of them) Sarah777 (talk) 18:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Very glad to hear it! ðarkun coll 18:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What happens to an Irish child with one Irish and one British parent? How does he juggle his conflicting loyalties? I really don't think one will worry about British dominion when the EU obtains complete Orwellian-like control over it's supine citizens. Remember the EU is the USSR without the hammer and sickle.--jeanne (talk) 18:56, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm no great fan of the proposed "Superstate" so no disagreement there. I strongly support the EU in its current form. But I think about the USA; when it was founded it was a bit like the EU. Yet 80 years later the greatest carnage in American history took place in order to stop some states from leaving. Think it couldn't happen in the EU? Under the guise of "security" it could happen any time. Sarah777 (talk) 23:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, tell me if I'm wrong I don't live there, Ireland has prospered as a result of being part of the EU. I think as you do, the EU works as it is. Once they start suggesting having a combined military force then we should start worrying. In fact, if memory serves me right it was suggested at one time. Anyone else recall that? Titch Tucker (talk) 23:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Ireland has prospered while it was part of the EU; the extent to which that is attributed to membership, internal economic policy, American FDI or globalisation is generally judged according to the observers political prejudice. I'd go for a bit of everything plus there was a large "catch-up" to do. Ending "the troubles" was vital; by 1987 Ireland was no better off than when it joined the EU and NI was much worse off. People forget that when they take the "peace process" for granted. Sarah777 (talk) 00:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * As an irregular visitor to your fair isle, I have noticed a marked improvement over many years, and as you say it seemed to improve quite rapidly at one point. No use crying over spilt milk, but its a pity the politicians did not get round the table a lot earlier. Who would have imagined Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness having a cup of tea and a laugh together. Not me! Titch Tucker (talk) 00:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Sadly there were a lot of woodlice under the bark who didn't like the "chuckle brothers". A lot of people are still itching for a rematch. They may get it. Sarah777 (talk) 00:33, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Not something to look forward to. Sarah, you must have the longest talk page on wikipedia. I've been racking my brain to come up with a subject for a new article, I may have found it. Sarah777:The biggest talk page in the history of wikipedia. How does that grab you? :) Titch Tucker (talk) 00:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, they used to say on the British Telecom ads, "its good to talk" Sarah777 (talk) 00:45, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * And they were right. Goodnight to you. Titch Tucker (talk) 00:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * A pity that laugh over a cup of tea didn't come after theSunningdale Agreement. Think of all the lives that would have been saved. How much does membership in the EU cost? A pretty penny and it's not even an exclusive club-anyone can join.--jeanne (talk) 05:39, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sarah
Hi Sarah, I'm still working away. I've started small but hope to go on to my real passions eventually. One step at a time just to learn whats what. You told me you would look out for my next 90 edits, they may not be great, but I have tried. Yours, Titch. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I see your main interest so far has been Celtic's legendary Bobby Lennox (any relation to Annie I wonder? I'm a bit of a footie fan myself but my favourite is Zuma Sarah777 (talk) 01:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Nah, no relation. Now be honest, no, really be honest! Had you ever heard of Zuma till you just looked him up? mmmm. Ok, I believe you, but why him?Titch Tucker (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I know him! Sarah777 (talk) 02:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My personal fave has always been George Best. The most entertaining are Paul Gascoine, Vinnie Jones, Francesco Totti, Diego Maradona.--jeanne (talk) 06:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And the Puma kept Arminia Bielefeld in the German Bundesliga last season; since he moved back to SA they have collapsed. If you doubt his genious have a look at this! Sarah777 (talk) 11:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like a great player Sarah. Have a look at this game. England were world champions at the time and Scotland were the first team to beat them since they won it. It's only a short clip, but by all accounts they should have won by more. Titch Tucker (talk) 14:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Great movement! Nice goal but wasn't Denis Law's effort a beaut!! Sarah777 (talk) 20:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, he was some player. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Rochfortbridge
Hi,You removed the demographics from the Rochfortbridge page relating to the 2006 census. This info is accurate and relative as it gives a better idea of the population in the village. Can you restore it into the article as I didn't want to get into a tit for tat edit/re-edit game?

Many Thanks, Wikidrone 20000 (talk) 10:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit puzzled. The bit I removed said: "The town of Castlelost in Rochfortbridge had 1,473 inhabitants as of the 2006 census, and estimates for the Rochfortbridge area place the total population at approximately 3,000.". Never heard of Castlelost! Please feel free to restore any referenced material I have removed in error. There will be no tit for tatting :) Sarah777 (talk) 10:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sarah, Castlelost is one of the townslands that partly make up Rochfortbridge. A good number of the houses in Rochfortbridge are here and without this in the numbers slightly misleads the census data. I'll restore that bit. Thanks. :) --Wikidrone 20000 (talk) 14:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Image-deleting atrocitist requests your input
Yo Sarah, I have temporarily abated atrocitizing the There's No One As Irish As Barack O'Bama article; would you care to comment at Talk:There's_No_One_As_Irish_As_Barack_O'Bama? Le meas, the skomorokh  21:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep; I have laid out my stall at said talkpage. Sarah777 (talk) 21:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Ballycolla/Ballacolla
What's with the difference in names? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nazcaman (talk • contribs) 00:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In this case not much; but we must settle on one. Sarah777 (talk) 00:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Mooretwin
Hi, this editor has been making very controversial changes across wikipedia the past few days. He is doing multiple edits of changing Ireland to Republic of Ireland across Wikipedia, removing the pipelink. I believe this is against IMOS? If you could keep his edits in check that would be great.Thanks78.16.2.181 (talk) 16:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought the pipelink thingy, was settled. It was decided to use the pipelink. GoodDay (talk) 17:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * PIPElink? What's a PIPElink, GoodDay, I hesitate to ask this, seeing as it sounds rather kinky.--jeanne (talk) 18:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:PIPE. Though the editor that left this message is banned from contributing, and is looking to stir up trouble. I urge you to ignore his request. Instead I will look into the allegation. Rockpock  e  t  18:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipiere?? I'm guessing. GoodDay (talk) 18:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good guess. I have reverted the article to the stable, and perfectly acceptable status before this edit-war and warned Mooretwin about more "unnecessary" de-piping. Rockpock  e  t  18:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He's at it again. This time at United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.213.202.149.149 (talk) 22:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a quick comment - whether it is a sensible approach or not, the fact that the 'piped Ireland' is all over Wikipedia is pretty much entirely down to over 20 accounts created for the purpose of doing it, all made by Mr 213.202 above. It is hard to really call someone up for reversing the obsessive work of a single-minded puppetmaster. Whoever else may have supported the piping, very few joined in even in supporting its replacement at times when it was removed - it really has largely been the work of one man, who needed to constantly create new socks to support himself, as well as to continue after his old socks were banned. It was possibly Wikipéire's first ever edit in Feb, and he has barely let up all year. At least Moorerwin doesn't appear to be socking. By my logic, Wikipeire reverting Mooretwin here equates to Wikipeire simply carrying on. Personally I don't go for either approach, and I think the WP:IDTF taskforce is where it needs to be sorted out.


 * Trying to get someone involved like this is certainly provocative and shows him for what he is imo. People need to focus on the IDTF. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually Matt the reverse is true. If people don't remove the correct name of my country from wikipedia then I won't appear. If the issue of censoring the constitutional name of an independent country is sorted out on this encyclopedia I'll be gone. Mooretwin is a disruptive editor and reverting his anti consensus edits benefits Wikipedia.213.202.149.149 (talk) 23:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * But why have you come running to Sarah though? Or more to the point - how many people out there can you go to? Some people accepted your piping, some people reverted it, but no one chose to support you on the edit table. Why? Because we all expend our energies obeying the rules, which you simply cannot be bothered to do - in other words, you are trouble. And your refusal to allow Wales and Scotland the dignity of being called 'countries' as long as the horror of a Britain exists, was just too hyper-nationalistic for most people anyway, although nationalism always seems to get some support in this place however foolishly intense it gets.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * My personal opinion is that piping is the best solution given the current impasse, but that isn't really the point. En masse changes are not helpful in either direction, because it leads to edit-warring that never stops, just moves across the encyclopaedia from article to article. The only viable long term solution to this is to reach some sort of consensus that can be applied globally. Until then, mass changes in either direction, especially by those editors who are aware that there is no consensus either way, is disruptive. In this particular case, that sentence had been stable for 9 months. Therefore there is no good reason it should be changed again unless there is a consensus one way or the other. Like Matt Lewis says: there is a place to work this out through discussion, so use it. Do not attempt to circumvent the discussion there by changing the landscape on an article by article basis. Wikipeire is banned, partly for getting involved in such activities and using socks to do so. His continuing presence is unhelpful and counterproductive, because the message is being diluted because he is the one delivering it. Mooretwin is not banned, but if continues in this vein I expect he will find himself under some sort of restriction before too long. Rockpock  e  t  23:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * What was sentence that was stable for 9 months? (I've only been watching my Talk lately). It is highly possible that Wikipeire made the first change (I am assuming it is a piped Ireland), as he has spent those past 9 months piping it in - it hardly existed before he started. As it happened I never got involved in those pipe edits themselves - but I know that some people did try and resist him (only to find his socks backing him up), and they certainly won't see any of the period as being stable. I think Moorerwin really needs to be asked politely and sensitively to stop, as in any normal situation he is not doing anything wrong has he?, especially as Wikipeire said he was off and away. Blocking and warning him just seems the wrong approach to me given what has happened in the last 9 months.


 * By the way, it was me who originally added the the line on piping in IMOS (Wikipeire appeals to it above) - if I knew more about Wikipeire then, I would certainly have thought twice before I did it. I simply asumed it was longer standing consensus, and called it an approach. I've just noticed it has been changed so I'll give it a look.--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That line I added must have been in Ireland, rather thatn IMOS, but I've updated IMOS anyway. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell Redking7 piped the opening reference to the country on 20 February . This remained untouched and stable for over 9 months and 59 edits by many different editors. Considering there is no strong consensus either way, I see no merit in Mooretwin edit warring to change it back. Taken in isolation, its not big deal. Take Mooretwin's pattern of edits together with the prior knowledge that his edits are not backed up by a wider consensus, they look very much like a POV driven agenda. I get that Wikipeire started all of this but two wrongs do not make a right. Therefore Wikipeire's prior actions are not an acceptable justification to go on a similar, unsupported campaign to change them all back. What we need to do is stop all the one man, article by article campaigns to represent Ireland according the the editors preference, and instead reach a wider consensus. Rockpock  e  t  01:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with putting our energies into consensus, and the taskforce at WP:IDTF is the place.--Matt Lewis (talk) 17:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I posted on this talk page as Sarah777 is she just one of the editors who somewhat understand that its not my ambition to be counterproductive for the sake of it but to make Wikipedia more NPOV by using a name that is factually correct and not POV. I don't really see an discussion going on about solving the issue. I know the taskforces are there but nothing's happening really. I would love to see proper discussion on it, but all thats happening is people like Mooretwin putting in incorrect POV. I'm aware in a way I'm diluting the message as its "me" doing it, but no one else is currently tackling the issue. I'l gladly disappear if a discussion is started. Amhrán na bhFiann has been reverted back to ROI by the way by dodgy looking account.213.202.162.88 (talk) 00:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You are getting someome to back up a sock. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You shouldn't look at it that way. You should look at the fact that edits have a neutral point of view. Note none of this latest who ha is me inputting Ireland into pages ; its me reverting Mooretwin whos removing ones which are validly there through consensus.213.202.181.36 (talk) 00:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)This issue was already discussed with Mooretwin on his Talk page here. An agreement was reached on removing/inserting the term "British Isles", pushed through by SirFozzie, so I left this message on SirFozzie's Talk page here to suggest the introduction on a similar ban on the Ireland/RoI issue until the task force completes. Due to cirsumstances at the time, SirFozzie didn't get involved, but since this issue has raised it's head again, I suggest that a similar moratorium is introduced. --HighKing (talk) 15:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That might not be a bad idea. It can only be in spirit of course, but it seems sensible for a period at least, providing people wish to get behind it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well Holy God - look what I missed! I hope it wasn't that picture of Big Ian caused Mooretwin to go berserk. Maybe a bot could be designed to pipe all unpiped versions of RoI? Then it could clean up this sort of activity automatically without any edit warring? Sarah777 (talk) 23:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I always have been a trouble-maker (or is that D'yer Maker?)--jeanne (talk) 13:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is it so BAD?
Rock music, the Wiki article, is bad beyond belief. Why? Despite this being a red button article Wiki can only produce tosh. Is this a sign that in areas where there are great subjective differences of opinion the Wiki model doesn't work? This would apply to political/historical articles even more? We need standards that transcend the bias of the white-Anglo-nerd paradigm? Just posing the question. Sarah777 (talk) 02:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Rolling Stones are white and Anglo. Would you consider them nerds? Mick's speeches at Altamont notwithstanding. (Come on brothers, sisters, Hell's Angels, let's be cool now, don't push around. Get into the groove, just RELAX). Or The Beatles, Bowie, Cockney Rebel (Ever seen Steve Harley? Yummy), The Who, Slade, Pet Shop Boys, Clash, Bronski Beat,Communards, Erasure, Ultravox, XTC, Dead or Alive, Siouxsie, Led Zeppelin, Police, Faces, Kinks, Cream, Deep Purple, The Animals, Elvis, The Doors, Blondie, Allman Brothers Band. Sarah, the BEST rock groups are Anglo or Anglo-American. Even Geldof said the best punk groups were British. Have you heard Italian rock? Pleeeeze.--jeanne (talk) 05:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh! Have you heard British Opera? Yes, a galaxy of nerds is what you have listed; but some brilliant songsters I do freely admit. T'was the article I said was bad - not the Rockers! (ps - I don't like Geldof - Tell Me Why?) Sarah777 (talk) 09:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Aye, Queen-Mamma mia let me go, let me go, Behelzebub's got a devil.......Better than Verdi or Rossini any day.--jeanne (talk) 13:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmmmm....Sarah777 (talk) 13:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OK you win Con te parterò..., La donna mobile--jeanne (talk) 13:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi guys. Is this a two-way conversation or can anyone join in? About the Rock music article - yes it is a mess, and yes it is a sign that "in areas where there are great subjective differences of opinion the Wiki model doesn't work" or at least makes it even more difficult than usual. It's not just the subjectivity question - it's down to the sheer number of (registered and unregistered) editors who all have a point of view, together with the lack of historical perspective and hence lack of critical consensus and independent authoritative references. But, if you let me know what in particular you think needs to be changed in the article (apart from "everything"), and if I agree with you of course (and if I have time), I'm happy to join in a concerted improvement drive on it (along with one or two others I expect, like Zazaban). Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Ghmyrtle, you are more than welcome! To be honest, I'd not regard myself as an expert in this area - it was so "all over the place" that you can see that just browsing, as I was. And I wondered "why?". It is such a keystone cultural issue of this Age; why no good article? And I realised it is because the subject matter is vastly popular and highly subjective - as you said. A tower of Babel situation. And I have no idea how it might be fixed! Sarah777 (talk) 17:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Song about Jeanne Boleyn in Crossmolina

 * Have ye heard the news? A group of lads at a pub in Crossmolina, Co. Mayo, where my granny Griffin came from, have written a song about me ? Have you heard it yet? Do you happen to know it's title?--jeanne (talk) 06:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * They did?? Sarah777 (talk) 10:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, Titch and GoodDay wrote the lyrics.--jeanne (talk) 11:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This is for Millbanks. When I lived in Ireland, my friends were intrigued by the fact that I came from exotic California, not the typically Irish-American cities such as Boston, NY, etc. They were especially interested when they discovered my connection to Venice, due to the cult following of Jim Morrison in Ireland at that time. I had a boyfriend from Belfast who never knew I was American. He assumed I was a Southside Dubliner. Honestly.--jeanne (talk) 11:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep; Southsider middle-class folk are starting to sound more "mid-Atlantic" all the time. I blame the telly. Sarah777 (talk) 11:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course the Irish and Americans share the ability to be able to actually pronounce the letter "r". Which accounts for some of the similarity. Sarah777 (talk) 11:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I went out with Steve in 1986, long before mid-Atlantic became trendy. It's true about our rs being pronounced. The Northern Irish have extremely hard Rs. So he probably felt at home hearing mine. Then again, Steve knew precious little about me, not even my address or phone number. So...--jeanne (talk) 11:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Take the word "departed"; we say, oddly, 'departed'. The yanks say 'depaw-red'. The English say 'depawted'. Or 'depah-ted' if they ain't posh. Sarah777 (talk) 11:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course a true Dub will say 'depaaarted' or, more likely "f**in' gone". Sarah777 (talk) 11:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Or he's fooked off up da road to da bleedin chipperrrrr.--jeanne (talk) 14:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * A Howaya would probably say  Jaysus, the bleedin eejit's (probably named Anto or Daymo) after fookin off and leavin me wit a bleedin noine mont screuw.--jeanne (talk) 14:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sometime, Sarah, I have to introduce you to the typical Boston (USA) accent. I had to train it out of my voice when I was in the radio buisness, and to this day, people won't believe I've lived my whole life up here cuz I don't substitute "ah" for r's ("Pahk the Cah in Hahvahd Yahd" type thing". Here's some examples:, , (for just a couple versions of them). SirFozzie (talk) 07:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * (a bit of an aside) but recently I have noticed that Americans don't pronounce the name "Craig" correctly. They rhyme it with "Greg", rather than "Hague". Which is rather unfortunate for OBama's new White House Counsel. Rockpock  e  t  08:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly never heard it like that. Learn something new each day! (Actually, I remember the joke someone (was it you, Rock?) made that the only thing that could cause English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish editors to team up was all fighting the Damn Yanks and their never ending ability to bastardize the common language.. ;) SirFozzie (talk) 08:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm from La-La land and we say Craig like Hague, not Greg, although those two names were quite popular when I lived in LA.I've got a good friend here in Italy, who is an Italian-American from Boston and I love her accent--jeanne (talk) 08:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Abner Doubleday-Combover
See picture-of-the-day up top! Never heard of the guy before now. Anyways, re accents I've always loved the Boston one since listening to those old JFK speeches. And while my favourite misogynist has near perfect diction many of his soul brothers seem to have a Boston twang  - is that a Nu Yawk accent? Jeanne, I thought you were in Ireland - how did you get to Italy?! Sarah777 (talk) 09:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been in Italy continuously for over 15 years. I arrived here, for the first time, at the end of the 1980s, by the orders of Uncle Sam. I moved to Texas in 1991, returned here in 1993. The Italians have never forgiven the former lifeguard/Cowboy actor for that faux pas and have been anti-American ever since!--jeanne (talk) 10:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ronald Reagan ordered you to Sicily? Where you in the military? Titch Tucker (talk) 10:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, to sunny Sigonella. No I wasn't in the military, but my Irish (now ex) husband was in the US Navy. Reagan allowed foreign nationals to serve in the US Military, BTW. I was a civilian worker on said base, however.--jeanne (talk) 10:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So I guess you're not living with Titch in Crossmolina? Sarah777 (talk) 10:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah, it would have to be County Monaghan where my great grandfather came from. Which incidently, while looking the article up I discovered is twinned with a certain Prince Edward Island. I'm sure I know someone who comes from there. Titch Tucker (talk) 11:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * PEI eh? the lack of consistent enforcement and absence of province-wide zoning and land-use planning has resulted in some aesthetically displeasing development in recent years. By golly you'd not get away with putting that sort of POV into an article about somewhere in Ireland. It would have to be cited as a referenced claim. I'd see to that! Sarah777 (talk) 11:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course I hardly ever saw a development I didn't like :) Sarah777 (talk) 11:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If I were to live anywhere in Ireland again, I would choose Belfast. I love that place, just hope it doesn't get too EU-ised. Dublin, would be fine if I could transform it back to the Bagatelle-like ambience of the early 1980s (Dandelion Market, Afro Spot, American Erection era).--jeanne (talk) 12:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I remember Dublin in the rare 'oul times as a bit grotty compared to today. But then that was just coming up to visit from the country. Sarah777 (talk) 12:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It was grotty but had a Victorian Dickensian squalor that I found appealing. Where in the country are you from? The Rebel's County perhaps?--jeanne (talk) 13:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm from Wickla - a farm girl! Sarah777 (talk) 13:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Anywhere near the breathtakingly-beautiful Glendalough? That place is lovely-and so close to Dublin! Oh, I meant to ask you, who in your family was Italian? And do you know from which region in Italy?--jeanne (talk) 17:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Other side of the hills; my mother's parents; Ascoli Piceno. Ask me any more and I'll have to shoot you!Sarah777 (talk) 17:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Never been to Marche. Anyroad, you've still an advantage over me, as you not only know my real full name but you also know what I look like. Aieeeee as they say across the border.--jeanne (talk) 17:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Progress on the Manual of Style?
Please see Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)/Ireland_disambiguation_task_force and in particular the subsection Compromise Proposal. -- Evertype·✆ 20:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

AE
Please elaborate your comments at your earliest convenience.--Tznkai (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh? What comments? Who is AE? Me? Where? Tznkai - you are scaring me. Sarah777 (talk) 05:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't be scared Sarah, they don't know where you live. And if they (whoever they are) find out deny everything. Titch Tucker (talk) 05:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * She's right to be paranoid. After all, Titch, we are in the month of November and bizarre things always happen in the month of NOVEMBER.Beware the Ides of November--jeanne (talk) 05:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This comment, Sarah. I think Tznkai would be all ears should you want to explain it further Oh Dear! Upon closer investigation maybe User:Yman88 isn't just a random passing non-Irish/British editor! Sarah777 (talk) 22:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC) SirFozzie (talk) 05:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that, sorry for being unclear.--Tznkai (talk) 05:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep - I have figured what "AE" meant and have replied there. I'm a bit slow before I get my first coffee! Sarah777 (talk) 06:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * and I thought AE = George William Russell ClemMcGann (talk) 10:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Ireland Task-force
Hiya Sarah. There's only one way, ya'll can ever get those articles Ireland, Republic of Ireland & Ireland (disambiguation) moved [thus having Ireland (island), Ireland (state) & a disambig page called Ireland]. That's by working it out on the respective articles. PS- I don't envy the storms ahead, ya'll are heading into. GoodDay (talk) 22:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Waggers, put RM notices on those 3 articles. This will help things move along, much smoother. GoodDay (talk) 22:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * RM? Sarah777 (talk) 20:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It means moving the page. GoodDay (talk) 20:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Thought those articles will (IMHO) be moved. My instincts tells me, there's gonna be a heck of a fight, on those 3 respective articles. GoodDay (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There may be a bit of a scrap - but we are surely up for that?! See the Wiki "Picture of the Day" at the top of the page? It is a recipe for making a nuclear bomb - maybe that is a sign that a paradigm shift is under way? Sarah777 (talk) 21:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I won't be there for the coming struggle (see my Userpage). PS- Waggers, is waiting for your return call. GoodDay (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Irl meet up ?
I've been thinking about this for a while, so I might as well say it. I think it might be interesting for the Irish wikipedians to meet up and have a good auld moan. It would be interesting and probably good craic, maybe a cup of tea in Rosies in Galway or Sin É in Cork; or whatever. (But not Dublin: I dont do Dublin). Ceoil (talk) 02:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah common' - Dublin is Ireland. I live there for Chrissakes! Sarah777 (talk) 20:11, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I did too, for a long time. Ye talk funny up there, compared to us down here in Cork. Anyway, I think I'll just open a page on this, and see who is around. Ceoil (talk) 21:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Westport is best. ;-) -- Evertype·✆ 23:35, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. Best for what? Sarah777 (talk) 00:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Best, the superlative of good. Dublin... been there, done that. ;-) -- Evertype·✆ 01:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oft have I
 * upon the Octagon in Westport stood
 * felt briny rain
 * drip down my back from off my sodden hood.
 * Sarah777 (talk) 01:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See? Best rain, for example -- Evertype·✆ 01:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The finest rain in all of Ireland.....Sarah777 (talk) 01:33, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Careful what ye say about Mayo, my nan came from there.--jeanne (talk) 11:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

What a day!

 * Why thank you most appreciatively! I used to have a poster up there canvassing for barnstars but it wasn't yielding much in the way of fruit!! Sarah777 (talk) 21:32, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you just been blocked for awarding yourself barnstars?!! Is that a Wiki-first?? (Nonetheless, I'm keeping that one). Sarah777 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You stole my Barnstar ceoil! Puleeze. Sarah777 (talk) 21:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

What???!!!
This (right) has just been awarded Picture de Jour - I ask you. Sarah777 (talk) 00:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I expect its because of its remarkable resolution. I have a look at it in detail, its absolutely massive. Rockpock  e  t  01:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah yes! One needs to blow it up! Sarah777 (talk) 01:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * (eyes Sarah Suspiciously...) Blow it up? A (just kidding Sarah, forgive me? Just a choice of words that tickled my funny bone :D) SirFozzie (talk) 11:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I do like to dabble in the double entendre betimes! As you suspected it wasn't totally accidental :)Sarah777 (talk) 12:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Marilyn Manson

 * Re: our discussion on Anglo rock stars. Would you classify Marilyn Manson amongst the geeks or not?--jeanne (talk) 11:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Hyper-geek. Sarah777 (talk) 20:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The boy that you love is the man that you fear.........--jeanne (talk) 06:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmmmm. Charles might be a bit scary but Marilyn? About as scary as Alice Cooper! Anybody with a handgun and a short fuse is scary:) The nerd who thinks you were his bestest most unrepeatable catch is the scariest - Beware nerds! Go for the lookers - a broken heart is easier to fix than a broken head!! Sarah777 (talk) 00:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Marilyn is a bad photocopy of Alice Cooper and Pete Burns combined. Actually, I saw Alice in person, fairly close up. He's very good-looking with a beautiful pair of grey eyes. Yes, always go for the lookers. Even if/when they break your heart, they do leave you with nice-looking kids.--jeanne (talk) 10:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the sexy son hypothesis may have something to it (though I appreciate it is somewhat nerdish to point that out) ;) Rockpock  e  t  22:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Rockpocket, that's an interesting theory and one I happen to agree with based on what I have seen in the behaviour of some of my friends regarding their sons. My eldest sister was also like this in regards to my nephew. It appears that women prefer having good-looking sons who screw around with a variety of girls, rather than encouraging them to settle down with just one. However, it's just the opposite with their daughters. I have always believed that it was due to the possibility of the mother's genes being more diffused (were her son to impregnate a number of his conquests) than if the son settled down at an early age with a wife and family (nowadays smaller than in times past). Let me elaborate on this. A cad who gets a number of his girlfriends pregnant, then later marries and has a family will more than likely leave more descendants upon the planet (which also happen to be his mother's descendants!) than a man who marries one girl and fathers a typically-sized family with her (two kids, three at most). Another thing, the sexy son is far more likely to marry several times, thus fathering even more offspring. Look at men like Mick Jagger, Brian Jones, King Charles II of England.Their respective mother's genes are widely diffused.--jeanne (talk) 12:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Would you classify this person as a geek? Or this person as a geek? or these guys as geeks?--jeanne (talk) 10:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And this cockney chap here: geek or not a geek?--jeanne (talk) 15:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Bono and Bragg - no - genius is NEVER geeky (see Stephen Hawking as a prime example of what I mean); Oswald, Simon(?) and Garfunkel - yes, maybe and a big blonde yes. My Geek Detector is a fairly sensitive instrument. Rock; I'm going to read up on this theory and revert. I'd class you as "non-Geek" without a glance; It's that cool thingy!! Sarah777 (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I remember serving Bono where I worked on Talbot Street back in 1981. This was in his bible-reading days, when he had long hair and hung out with the Virgin Prunes Yeah, I often served them as well!--jeanne (talk) 06:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I Wanna Barnstar, too

 * It's not fair. I've been at Wikipedia for over 7 months now and nobody's ever given me a Barnstar. Sob, sniff, it's just not fair. Have I not done one single thing at Wikipedia worthy of a Barnstar? Not even for providing the image which prompted GoodDay and Titch to display their combined songwriting talents-ala Lennon and McCartney, Jagger-Richards--jeanne (talk) 10:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a geek

 * Would you classify this guy here as a geek?--jeanne (talk) 11:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC) [[Image:Terry K.1981.jpg|thumb|right|Geek to you?]]
 * Now I'm gonna be diplomatic here 'cos I suspect he may be a...significant person to you. You'll not catch me out so easy young lady :) Sarah777 (talk) 12:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And I hope you've told him that not only is smoking cigarettes a filthy habit but it is very bad for his health. Sarah777 (talk) 12:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And the health of those around him. As research shows. Or so I'm led to believe. Sarah777 (talk) 12:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've never smoked anything legal myself, so I feel I have the moral high ground here. Sarah777 (talk) 12:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Moral high ground. You're on a roll today, Sarah. Rockpock  e  t  20:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He wanted to marry me, in point of fact. I refused as I didn't wish to reside in a men's hotel in England.--jeanne (talk) 14:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good decision. On balance I'd prefer not to live in a men's hostel either. In any country ;) Sarah777 (talk) 20:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That fella looks like he farts alot (I'm assuming Jeanne, never went with him). GoodDay (talk) 00:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL.GoodDay, that guy could have been the love of her life and your saying he looks like a farting junkie. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Haha. That could be the title of a country and western song, Titch.  Rockpock  e  t  01:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Your right, it could be!! I'm not going to sing it though, Jeanne might track me down. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * DAMNIT Rock, I almost reverted/blocked you as a G***p account, don't do that (the long red link in an edit summary.) (srsly) SirFozzie (talk) 01:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry Foz. But I very much hope one day it will turn blue. In fact, if someone can come up with two verses and a chorus of the aforementioned song, I will donate $20 the the Wikipedia donation drive in their name. Rockpock  e  t  01:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Jeanne, Congratulations you are now officially a Muse: User talk:Rockpocket. Now then, Sarah, do you have an ex we can honour in song? Rockpock  e  t  03:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I always wanted to be a muse.--jeanne (talk) 06:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok guys, I just have to pose this question, especially to Sarah, as I know she'll give me a direct and honest answer. Am I a geek?--jeanne (talk) 13:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good Lord Jeanne! Most definitely not. However you'll note from the drones above that a lot of guys can be jerks (you know who you are chaps) when dealing with what (should be) obviously sensitive matters. Sarah777 (talk) 04:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Now, having made that point Rock - to your question "Sarah, do you have an ex we can honour in song?" - sadly yes - the Aston Villa football team. Sarah777 (talk) 05:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What? All of them? That would require quite a lot of verses. I'm not sure our songwriting skills are quite up to that yet. Besides nothing rhymes with "Agbonlahor" (though I can think of a few cheeky couplets for "Reo-Coker" ;) Rockpock  e  t  09:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * (**Slaps forehead with right palm, remembers where she is**) - That was a joke, btw:) Sarah777 (talk) 05:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Too late Sarah, someone may be writing a smash hit right now (not me of course). I can just see Martin O'Neill singing it on Top Of The Pops some music channel before the cup final. Titch Tucker (talk) 13:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmmmm. Y'know I think "a running sore" could be made rhyme with "Agbonlahor"!! Sarah777 (talk) 22:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

'Tis OK Sarah
Hiya Sarah. Don't be too upset with Matt; his good points out number his bad. At least he'll communicate with ya. GoodDay (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No prob. I vented a bit and was over it in 10 minutes. Matt is a sound guy when he's not calling me a racist, xenophobic basic scum-of-the-earth type who should be banished from Wiki!! Maybe it was the time of the month? Sarah777 (talk) 05:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggested (on his page) that Wikipedia would've been better off if the UK were broken up. Since then, I've been exiled (from his page). Ya think it was something I said? GoodDay (talk) 16:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh come one, Good DAy, you haven't stopped! I deleted that conversation as a favour to you (and to put it in the past) - do you want me to put it back? You were being a pain in the neck to me at the time, and dealt with my notice by pestering me about it. You must understand that if someone bascially says 'back off' - well. Since then, you have still been squeezing your comments in - like in my conversations with Scolaire (after a spell of moping like hound dog wherever you could, seemingly after Snowded said something too). I don't really mind most of the time what you say or do, but I think this comment here is out of order, especially given that I have deleted the conversation you refer to (which I did say I very rarely do - so it wan't very respectful of that act to put your 'take' on it here). I re-sorted my talk page because of you, and as I said before, I don't always have the time for the pixie-like mischief you unquestionably can get up to (and I think I have some evidence here, do I not??). Just let it lie - all this is dramatic enough without the extra silliness caused. I think I only said it was the end to our 'chitchats' - I don't have the right to exile you from anywhere, nor would I. You went well OTT on on a wound-up comment, even scrubbing your votes, and trying to dramatically close debates I was now fully arguing. I have the right to make a comment if your comments gets too much - if you don't like it, then change your commenting style, or just accept it as a side effect of what you do. Nobody else on Wikipedia 'edits' quite like you, you got to admit it.


 * Sarah - I don;t want to see you banished from anywhere - and that is the only reason (as well as being too busy when I was really angry) that i didn't go to troubles page in the end. I notice you've commented at NI again (which unfortunately made me notice Snowded's daft comment about me). Do you really think I need to be at war with you three right now? (or ever! I am 100% an editor). I suggest leaving it, deleting or archiving it all. I'll only debate further on the troubles pages from now on - it is something I don't need in my life right now at all.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OK Matt. I was just looking for pity (as ya know I don't like being growled at). But some good did come out of it. I no longer comment on those British & Irish articles. The fact that both you & Snowy suggested I was mischievious there, opened my eyes & caused me to 'tone myself down' on those articles. Believe me, if anybody tried to get ya into trouble, I'd defend ya. PS- I had assumed I was banned from your talk-page (which bugged me the most). GoodDay (talk) 23:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Matt, I have zero desire to be fighting with you as when you are not calling me racist, xenophobic, hate-filled etcetera you are fairly reasonable - as I've already said somewhere. I'll try to stop "provoking" you if you stop interpreting every remark I make as provocation. Let us set an example for others to emulate! Sarah777 (talk) 23:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Happydude 69ya
Sarah, I note your comment on this user's talkpage, and have posted a short answer there. I am always happy to assume good faith, but if you take the time to look at this user's very first edits, which date only from this week, you will be amazed at the speed with which he has mastered a number of quite complex editing skills! --Anthony.bradbury"talk" 09:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I was astonished! But I never look a Barnstar in the mouth:) Sarah777 (talk) 23:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey, I got a Barnstar today for being reasonable. I am now going off to be reasonable to many article talk pages. If my pages get too full I may pass some on to you. Yours, Reasonable Titch Tucker (talk) 23:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This may come as a surprise Titch, but I never got a Barnstar for being reasonable. And I'm been on a host of Talkpages. Sarah777 (talk) 23:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe. Your time will come Sarah. You have a host of other's so be patient and your time will come. Titch Tucker (talk) 23:48, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Articles_for_deletion/Dublin_statues_and_their_nicknames
Looks like no action was ever taken on this AfD (never linked, article isn't tagged), so I've requested that it be deleted as too stale to be restarted at this point. Feel free to renominate it if the issues that prompted it back in July still apply; I'll be happy to help you with the steps in listing it properly should you desire it. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 17:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, looks like this was moved per the outcome. Still not sure why the AfD never got closed properly. Jclemens (talk) 17:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Critical mass
I'm not sure I follow your comment on Giano's page. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, simply that both sides expect that we take their word as their bond, rather than provide the evidence and allow us to make our own decisions. Personally, I trust neither, so am unwilling to come down on one side over the other. Rockpock e  t  18:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Events have overtaken this comment somewhat. Logs have now been published (though the source of the leak is still a mystery, so its comforting all that private information is in Giano's safe hands, who we know nothing about and he could use them for any nefarious purpose.) Assuming they are accurate then Giano's interpretation of the checkuser as outside policy is probably accurate. But I've still seen no convincing argument why this year-old tempest in a teapot should be the reason why Giano was blocked by Gerard. It seems much more likely to me that, having being blocked, Giano and his inside man went scrabbling through their stale scandal file to find something that he could use to hit back at the admin that blocked him. This is rule #1 in the Giano politics manual: someone crosses him then he (or his harpies) start flinging mud. It may also be rule #1 in Gerard/FT2's rulebook: Giano crossed them in the past, so they set out to block him at any opportunity. The point is, I don't see any significant difference between them. It seems equally likely that this is about them furthering their political ambitions and avenging personal grudges. So much for the encyclopaedia.  Rockpock  e  t  18:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Rock, I was more commenting on the accusation of "conspiracy theories" than the specifics of the Giano/FT case which is too vast and dense to follow unless it occupied all available Wiki-time. What are  their political ambitions btw? I presume you mean internal Wiki-politics rather than a positive impulse to improve the encyclopaedia by counter-balancing systematic WP:BIAS or other such worthy aims? :) Sarah777 (talk) 22:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * IMHO, the whole Giano/Gerard/FT2 etc thingy, is a Diva show. A movie that's entertaining at first, but eventually becomes boring. GoodDay (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Take the whole Troubles ArbCom debacle, for instance. At the time Giano touted himself as the neutral third party. But the reality is he had his own personal dispute with Vk's nemeses, Kittybrewster, David Lauder et al. This is the reason Giano defended Vk to the hilt, its was completely self serving. This is my problem with the Giano stands up for the little man meme. Giano is, my my opinion, no better and no worse than the people he is so keen depose: they are all about getting their own way, then keeping it that way. Rockpock  e  t  22:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * G'Day, in my case I missed the start of the movie so didn't even even find it that interesting in the first place as I didn't know what was going on. But some of the individual scenes are interesting in themselves. Sarah777 (talk) 23:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've always found the best way to deal with divas is to completely ignore them. They'll scream and shout for a while, but will eventually slope off muttering to themselves that they were never appreciated. Titch Tucker (talk) 23:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be the optimal strategy here. The problem is in a community of fools equals this large, there will always be someone to take the bait. That is what Giano relies on (he has told me as much himself). Rockpock  e  t  23:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So Rock, i guess this would be your take on the situation?!!

 He has a dream

This editor believes it is wrong that Wikipedia is policed from an external Admin's channel over which he has no control.

Police Wikipedia from Wikipedia


 * Maybe you should leave the stricken word in! Anyway, now that Matt has 'backed off' his threat to bring me to Arbcom I wish to say:

Matt Lewis
I do apologise for provoking you. It was my intention to defend my position in the discussion, not to provoke. I have read Rock's summary and agree with him (mostly, except the first bit). I confess that after your initial attack I did go a bit into eh....defensive provocation mode. I will now cease and desist and resolve not to do so again. Sarah777 (talk) 23:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Support --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:33, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Good to see people making up (I mean that). Now, where do I find three Barnstars that say "peacemakers?". One for each of you. Titch Tucker (talk) 23:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * Many thanks TT! It isn't so much I don't hold a grudge as I can't hold them for very long - however much I try! (I exclude Admins from this as a matter of policy :) Sarah777 (talk) 00:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Your welcome. Not holding a grudge for long is the same as not holding one at all, in my opinion. Titch Tucker (talk) 00:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)