User talk:Saunders.cj

Hi Saunders.cj, I see that no one has left a comment on your user talk page yet, so a belated welcome to Wikipedia! Are you in any way affiliated or connected with Thomas Jefferson School of Law? If that is the case, please note our Conflict of interest guidelines. Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Please stop edit-warring to delete sourced information without an explanation - this may get you blocked. If you have objections against the text added by 76.168.205.230, explain them on the article's talk page. See Talk:Thomas_Jefferson_School_of_Law and the edit summaries.
 * Regards, HaeB (talk) 00:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Bar Pass Rate
The State Bar publishes analysis of the stats (e.g., pass rates for the various schools) 4-6 weeks after the name list comes out. Going through the name list and figuring out pass rates on our own is WP:OR. That 60% pass rate for TJLS will just have to wait. Thanks for your patience.--S. Rich (talk) 01:43, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Saunders, please look at WP:OWN. The article is not yours. --S. Rich (talk) 00:29, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

COI message
Hello, Saunders.cj. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Thomas Jefferson Law School, you may have a conflict of interest or close connection to the subject.

All editors are required to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view content policy. People who are very close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may cause them to inadvertently edit in ways that make the article either too flattering or too disparaging. People with a close connection to a subject are not absolutely prohibited from editing about that subject, but they need to be especially careful about ensuring their edits are verified by reliable sources and writing with as little bias as possible.

If you are very close to a subject, here are some ways you can reduce the risk of problems:


 * Avoid or exercise great caution when editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with.
 * Be cautious about deletion discussions. Everyone is welcome to provide information about independent sources in deletion discussions, but avoid advocating for deletion of articles about your competitors.
 * Avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Spam).
 * Exercise great caution so that you do not accidentally breach Wikipedia's content policies.

Please familiarize yourself with relevant content policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies.

For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. Thank you.--S. Rich (talk) 00:56, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson School of Law
Re: Your replaced of the ABA citation with a TJSL citation. The TJSL report pass rate is about 12% higher than the ABA report. That seems a rather high discrepancy. Jim1138 (talk) 17:46, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no discrepancy. We don't have to rely on the ABA report to determine our bar pass result.


 * There's no conflict of interest in updating the latest, verified information.


 * We respectgfully request that our edits not be undone.


 * So why the discrepancy? Looks to me like someone is making up numbers?  Jim1138 (talk) 21:10, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The 48% number comes from the ABA profile and is labeled as such. ABA profile numbers are used per infobox parameters. This being the case, discrepancies will show up.  E.g., we have a 33% rate for July 2011, but the infobox/ABA number did not change.  By sticking to the ABA infobox number, we can avoid cherry-picking by COI & BOOSTER editors. Also, the consistent parameter allows reader to make orange to orange comparisons. --S. Rich (talk) 23:06, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Conflict of interest editing
Mr. Saunders, you clearly have a conflict of interest with regard to your editing on the wikipedia article on your employer. Please read the guidance posted on this user page (above). These are policies and they must be followed. (And if you persist in violating Wikipedia policy, you will be blocked from editing.) I strongly recommend that you look at  Talk:Education_Management_Corporation as an example of how to do such changes correctly. I read your IP post on my talk page. I will not answer it other than to refer to this page. – S. Rich (talk) 19:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson School of Law
I do not believe that our posting of true information about our law school, Thomas Jefferson, violates the Conflict of Interest rule. A list of names of noteworthy professors we posted has twice been deleted due to alleged COI.

In fact, it is highly objectionable for people not affiliated with the law school to post anything they want about the school -including inaccurate information and without being subject to COI. Conversely, it is objectionable that they can delete verifiable information.

In other words, unreliable sources can post, but reliable sources cannot without being edited?

Wiki needs to re-think these guidelines. Accuracy has suffered greatly in this process, and I can only think this makes all of your pages suspect.

Saunders.cj (talk) 22:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Chris Saunders, News Media Relations at TJSL


 * Mr. Saunders, you are about to go over the line. You think I haven't been doing this for a while? You refuse to look at, much less less follow policy? Whether Wikipedia needs to rethink its policies is not the question. The policies are the policies and you've got to follow them. I've tried to advise you on this, but labeling my edits as "vandalism" is not helping much. This is your last warning. Do not revert the changes I'm making. If you do, I will ask that you be blocked for COI editing. – S. Rich (talk) 23:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Saunders.cj (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)Chris Saunders: S. Rich, I want full disclosure from you. Are you a WP editor? Do you have an agenda or conflict of interest regarding TJSL? I assert our right under WP policy and guidelines to post accurate accurate, neutral information on our Wiki page without it being labeled as COI.

Saunders.cj (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)C. Saunders; By the way - we believe the Wiki page on our law school is terribly biased against us by its very content and yet it has been allowed to stand. That's why I believe WP policies should be re-examined.


 * Re your recent edits to Thomas Jefferson School of Law: You seem to be adding the names of non-notable people to a list that normally includes only notable people. In general, a person added to a list should have a pre-existing article before being added to most lists. If you wish to create such an article, please first confirm that the subjects qualify for separate, stand-alone articles according to Wikipedia's notability guideline. If you believe this guideline should be ignored for some reason, please discuss this on the article's talk page before restoring the information again. Thank you. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 00:01, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm a graduate of that San Diego law school up on the hill, some years ago. I do have a business interest in another California law school, but it is many miles away and does not compete in any sense with TJLS.
 * I am a Wikipedia editor, just like you. I do have access to certain privileges, Rollback & Reviewing, but I am not an administrator.
 * I have posted advice, above, about a better method of adding material to the TJLS page and I will urge you (again) to follow it.
 * I agree that there is info about TJLS that needs correction and improvement. Please note that I've made 115 edits to the page -- more than any other editor.
 * Please note that another TJLS contributor User:Tjslcommunications made a certain number of edits to the article and ended up with an indefinite block.
 * Please look at the guidelines and policies that Wikipedia operates under. COI is one of those rules that we live with. Also, we look for verification. That means we rely on reliable sources for the information added to articles.  If you can provide updated info, based on verifiable reliable sources, that info can be, but not necessarily will be, added.  (For example, what is the status of the Alaburda lawsuit? Is there any followup info on the WSJ article?)
 * Regarding post-graduation employment numbers, you face the same problem that many schools face, a continuing recession and abundance of lawyers. Also, the emphasis on bar passage and subsequent employment as lawyers ignores the benefits of simply obtaining a law degree.
 * Again, if there are specific changes you'd like to see, please post them on the TJLS talkpage with a edit request template. TJLS is on my watchlist and I will respond quickly.
 * Finally, please post your signature with the four tilde marks ~ at the end of your comments, not at the front.
 * Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 00:15, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughtful explanation. We can live within these guidelines. Looking at California Western's Wiki page I noted that no mention is made of a lawsuit against them that is nearly identical to the Alaburda lawsuit. Therefore, it seems non-neutral and highly biased that this was posted by someone on our Wiki page. Also...someone has posted something about Cal Western's highly worthwhile California Innocence Project - possibly by Cal Western's own people. Yet our factual post about our new Center for Solo Practitioners was deleted. I see no COI or anything non-neutral about our programs being listed factually without embellishment. If we include a verifiable link to the center, would it be able to stand? Saunders.cj (talk) 00:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)Saunders.cj
 * I certainly understand that you enjoy telling the world about Thomas Jefferson School of Law. That said, you are clearly not neutral here. Consider, for example, that all of the material you are attempting to add is positive. The material you say is missing from other schools is negative, as is the material you and the "other" (now blocked) editor is are attempting to remove from this article. Without getting into who you are and what your job is, it simply does not pass the sniff test.
 * If you wish to make changes to the TJSL page, I would strongly encourage you to discuss the proposed changes on the article's talk page, providing independent reliable sources. If you wish to make changes to other schools' pages, I would encourage you to do the same. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 00:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Chris, you are most welcome. And as you can see, I'm following up with my advice.
 * The first thing we will do is get you a COI declaration for your userpage. At that point I'll remove the COI template at the top of the TJLS page and modify the connected contributor template on the talk page. Here is what I'd like you to post (use a cut & paste):

"Hello. I'm Chris Saunders and I work for the Thomas Jefferson School of Law. With conflict of interest in mind, I avow I'm here to contribute information and edits that will improve the quality of the Thomas Jefferson School of Law page and other law school related pages on Wikipedia. I will do so by posting edit requests on the TJLS talk page. I am aware of Wikipedia policies & guidelines and I abide by them. ~"


 * If you like, I can post this for you.
 * Next, you've got to not use the IP address for any more edits. We have policies regarding WP:SOCKPUPPETS and using the IP address will result in sanctions.
 * Regarding Western, I would not touch it. We have guidelines about WP:BOOSTER and WP:CHERRY. Adding negative info about another school would only serve to harm those schools without benefitting your own.
 * Regarding the Innocence Project. Post a proposed edit on the TJLS talk page, and include citations. Look at WP:CITE for technical guidance. I'll be happy to look at it. Then let me (or others) make the actual changes to the article. That way you will avoid COI problems.
 * Are we good? If you've got questions or concerns, please let me know here. – S. Rich (talk) 01:08, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Srich, I'm a professor at TJSL and occasional editor at Wikipedia. I heard from Chris Saunders in our communications department that there has been some disagreement on items on the page. New media is tricky for everyone, and I think we inadvertently posted in ways that are not in line with Wikipedia policy. I appreciate your explanation and your work keeping the page neutral.

As you noted, the TJSL page has some serious gaps as it stands right now. I've talked with Chris and we're going to coordinate to try to fix this gap. In doing so, we'll make sure to follow Wiki guidelines: Any material posted by anyone from TJSL will be validly sourced, use neutral language, and contain a COI note. We are not trying to be sneaky or break rules. We're obviously not neutral parties and there's a structural conflict of interest here. However, I think we can figure out how to navigate this in a sensible way. And none of us have any desire to get into a pointless edit war.

I hope this makes sense, if you have any suggestions please e-mail me at kwenger (at) tjsl.edu. Thanks! Kaimipono (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2013 (UTC)